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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 07:04:12 pm
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So that's the topic basicly, they are useless even after the burst fix, reasons for that are that they have the lowest range in game having quite a low damage output, 30-60 damage from pankor VS a 40% DR 6 DT armored unit, maybe since it has such a small range it should be more versityle? Shells are useless, maybe some -DR or a dmg multiplyer could solve the problem?
PS english is not my native language
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I agree that they are pretty weak at the moment and could be better, especially the "high tier" ones (Pancor Jackhammer, Combat Jackhammer)..
Would be nice to see some more variety...
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combat jackhammer? you don't mean CAWS by any chance? ::)
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Shotguns don't need to be useful for PvP. They're quite good for PvE on low levels. You get a nice +to_hit and they are in every shop.
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We're not speaking about simple shotguns people use to kill scorps and gekos, we're speaking about high tier gear
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Woops, no, I've ment the Pancor Jackhammer (is this even ingame?) and the Combat Shotgun. ;)
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Sorry for assuming by "shotgun" you meant "combat shotgun, CAWS, Pancor" and not the weapon that is named "shotgun".
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Sorry for assuming by "shotgun" you meant "combat shotgun, CAWS, Pancor" and not the weapon that is named "shotgun".
I was referring to gordulan, because he pointed out that I misspelled something in my other post.
EDIT: Alright, misunderstood again, I'm retarded. ;D
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Yes higher tear ones need little more to them. Maybe chance to knock down. I don't know something because they kind weak for that tier. Also the saw-off shot guns need to be change. I think they should hardly ever miss even if you got no skill with small guns. The shot gun range was less down to 7 and in description says it saw off to have wide spread hit.
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Wait, wait, wait! As I remember before wipe, on nma forum people was arguing betwen: that weapons are weak and some others about leak of realism. I see this that way, you like PvP so you are using rifles on long distance and shotguns on almost-HtH distance.
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Shotguns should have knockback ability. That's all. =(
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Shotguns should have knockback ability. That's all. =(
Agreed.
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yep, this is very old ..and good idea
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Yeah I can already see everyone wearing shotgun just to make others moonwalk and then burst their asses to ashes with main weap. Some weapons should have special effects but its hard to introduce anything into FOnline because its not regular mmo. You add knockback effect and you can count on exploits like 5 guys will stuck NPCs with shotguns and others will snipe them from safety etc...
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Well, knockback is just that you're on the floor but recovering really quickly after it. It's a great feature. Working with a lot of AP and only with "Burst" (The shotgun burst), then it would be good.
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Have you ever thought of implementing a "Bleeding" player status? It would be like "Poisoned" except you are bleeding and losing hit points rather than poisoned and losing hit points. And then it goes away after a minute or something. It could proc based on some weapon and ammo variables. If it wasn't too hard to implement, this might be a good way to improve the shotgun-- you could give it a high bleed chance. It would improve the weapon, but it wouldn't be a huge change. And I think the idea of a "Bleeding" player status would make the game more realistic.
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Have you ever thought of implementing a "Bleeding" player status? It would be like "Poisoned" except you are bleeding and losing hit points rather than poisoned and losing hit points. And then it goes away after a minute or something. It could proc based on some weapon and ammo variables. If it wasn't too hard to implement, this might be a good way to improve the shotgun-- you could give it a high bleed chance. It would improve the weapon, but it wouldn't be a huge change. And I think the idea of a "Bleeding" player status would make the game more realistic.
Sounds like an annoyance more than anything else. It's not gonna make more people want to use a shotgun.
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Here are my two cents on shotguns.
The problem with the shotguns in Fonline is their role in combat overlaps with ‘other rifles’. As a result, small gunners who are choosing a weapon lump them in the same category and come to the same conclusion that they are sub-par when compared with other rifles of the same tier. The value of shotguns is essentially deflated because other rifles can do everything a shotgun can, except better. Consider the following issues:
(I) Seeing as the max range of most shotguns is short, approx. 12/14/16, this hardly requires any investment in Small Guns skill points to achieve 95% chance to hit. Thus the +20% bonus to hit from the accurate perk is only a minor advantage at best, beneficial only to low-leveled characters with low SG or to non-combative characters who still want to use a gun. Not nearly an enticing enough bonus for a dedicated small gunner to consider seriously, seeing how in most cases the +20% hit will be redundant. Compared with long ranged rifles, the +% to hit from the long perk becomes an essential bonus, especially in long-distance night encounters.
(II) Even though the high tier shotguns: combat shotgun/CAWS/Pancor do 15-25 dmg single shot, which is a fair bit of dmg, the short range makes it impractical compared to lets say a sniper rifle, which does even more dmg (14-34) at close range with single shot, yet also has the advantage to shoot much farther. If someone does decide to use a shotgun for single-shot, it would have to be an aimed-shot to yield comparable damage as a rifle. Nonetheless, this in itself is a pretty ridiculous concept when you think of the spray in a shotgun shot.
(III) The burst function is also short ranged and far too limited in damage. With a 0%-DR ammo modifier, it will hardly put a scratch on armored targets. But of course, shotguns aren’t supposed to be used against things that are heavily armored because they don’t penetrate well, so changing the %-DR on the ammo would only serve to make them stronger then they practically should be. As it stands, even a basic rifle (like the assault rifle) can burst for better damage than a combat shotgun, let alone has much farther range.
(IV) The high tier shotguns are not cheap either. Compare it to high tier rifles and you’ll see they are similar in cost. If they do less damage and have shorter range, why should anyone pay the same amount of money, or resources, to get one? As it stands, shotguns are more of a vanity and role-playing weapon. That being said, the sawed-off shotgun is a perfect example of this. Put up against the regular shotgun, it sacrifices 5 range for only +2 max damage. But don’t get me wrong, it makes up for its bad combat capabilities by giving me a damn good feeling when I shoot and reload it. It might be the most shafted gun in the entire game, but it’s definitely the most satisfying gun to hold in my hands.
Solutions:
Increase their range? No
Make the ammo better? No
Make them cheaper? No
Change the role it plays as a combat weapon? Yes
Personally I think Fallout Tactics had it right. The shotguns in that game were not able to do aimed shots, only normal single shot and burst. To compensate, normal single shots had the added bonus of having a wide spread (similar to the AoE of bursting), whereas the burst option would be similar, but dish out more damage at the expense of more AP and ammo. This gave shotguns their own unique role – to instigate fights against clusters of enemies in close-medium range. Damage is only maximized when there were at least 2-3 enemies close together, and it would fall short of dealing good damage if it was just one target. When it came down to close-medium ranged crowd-control, their total DPS would excel. Rifles, on the other hand, would fulfill the role of single target ranged fighting and could not compare in damage to shotguns, even when bursting into groups at close range. Because rifles and shotguns did not overlap in combat function, both were valued weapons to have. Furthermore, the easy access of shotguns made it a cheap alternative to using grenades, rocket launchers, and miniguns in those who lacked the proficiency to use them, or couldn't afford them.
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guys, the simple solution is to modify the shell damage multiplyer, no need adding any perks(due to some abuse problems it would cause) and due to the fact that generally it won't solve the problem as I see it, the problem is that they just don't dish out the damage such a low ranged weapon should, right now high tier shotgun weapons dish out less damage than a minigun(at any range), a sniper rifle or a lazer one, they require a tiny range, dealing sh*ty damage to armored units, someone said that they are not quite penetrating in real life, well, thats true, but their firepower is insane, even if it hits a target wearing a bullet-proof vest it causes sevire pain and a knockdown
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Good morning Columbo.. Of course that all small guns are useless, that's why they are so cheap to craft. You need avenger minigun and light support weapon to kill people fast. Image talks million words ;D
(http://www.mxsatt.co.uk/LSW.jpg)
or if you want knockback:
(http://fun-pics.com/animal,bazooka.jpg)
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Did anyone shoot you at short range with a shotgun ? I can tell you there's a damn knockback effect.
P.S. Not that anyone shot me with a shotgun at short range, but... =p
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Maybe implementing some of the various special shells that is available in FoT? doesnt need to much of change in weapons, just cooler ammo. (electrical.. omg :p)
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explosive shells would be just awesome, imagine a burst of 5 of em, eh?
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I think pancor jackammer, combat shotgun, H&K Caws must be better. Why ? Because it's shotgun ! A minigun shooting 5mm ammo it's very little ammo, 12 Ga are very big and when you shot people with a shotgun you make a big hole in his body ! Bigguns like miniguns are for support the others people who are fighting with you. When i see a burst of minigun at 300 hit damages and a pancor jackammer at 100-120 hit damages with critical, i think it's not normal and or minigun and light support must be less powerful or shotguns ( Pancor, combat shot, HK caws ) must be more powerful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c)
THIS IS A SHOTGUN !
( sorry for my english )
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Hrm, Jackhammers average pretty nice DPS with their new burst mechanics. How many people have actually tried these bursting shotguns out for extended periods since this was done?
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But still, why is the perk "accurate". Shotguns are anything BUT accurate, unless its a hunting shotgun.
Perk should be knockback, and there should be another type of shotgun shell that lowers -AC more called slugs which is a more accurate type of ammo used. However I wouldn't make the range of the slugs any more than 20 or it's too unfair.
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But still, why is the perk "accurate". Shotguns are anything BUT accurate, unless its a hunting shotgun.
This means it has like fraction-shot, but what is odd thing is: you don't deal more damage at point-blank shot, and deal normal damage at far distance, when shotgun must be killmachine at pointblank and do AoE low damage at long distance.
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I played high level shotgunner and afaik, it's impossible to fight against any biggunner at close range, and of course impossible to fight against snipers at long range. Shotguns at close ranges are known for being the most mortal weapons. It just needs some improvements. There are lots of ways to do it. Since these weapons have the same price than other small guns, they should have the same power.
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I played high level shotgunner and afaik, it's impossible to fight against any biggunner at close range, and of course impossible to fight against snipers at long range. Shotguns at close ranges are known for being the most mortal weapons. It just needs some improvements. There are lots of ways to do it. Since these weapons have the same price than other small guns, they should have the same power.
i suggested perk that increases knockdown significantly, like 40% to knockdown would be ok. Since they are really expensive items, they should be really good.
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Good morning Columbo..
What?
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I suggested that all short barreled weapons and all shotguns will have no penalty in interiors. All other weapons will have penatly, that you will need more AP to use it. It is logical. Imagine situation, that you do eyeshot with sniper riffle to your knfe - attacking grandma in your livingroom. I cant imagine that, and you? :))
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I suggested that all short barreled weapons and all shotguns will have no penalty in interiors. All other weapons will have penatly, that you will need more AP to use it. It is logical. Imagine situation, that you do eyeshot with sniper riffle to your knfe - attacking grandma in your livingroom. I cant imagine that, and you? :))
Oh yes, also I want to see that minigunners, how fast he can rotate his facing, when crazy maniac with a knife running around and stabing him? ^_^
Also sniper rifle... yes... it must have at least the same penatly as scoped hunting rifle.
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Trust me guys, I've played a high level Shotgunner for a long time, tested each damn shot-gun weapon, ofc pankor is the best choice, but it deals shitty 30-60(i got 60 only once) out of about 150-300 shots vs a heavily armored unit, what it really needs is pure damage, or a -DR, although the damage may seem nice at first look, when it comes to combat and all the DR and DT calculations, it is reduced significantly, if only this damn shells had some -DR or a damage multiplyer, it would solve the problem for sure, no need doing any experiments with knockbacks, it won't help, such damage won't save you if you fight some guy with 8+EN and a lifegiver in CA, he'll just stand up and nail you, just to compare, a decent BG(my BG last season) dished out something like 60-110 damage per burst VS a CA guy(as far as i remember, but anyway, a rare guy stood 2 bursts in a row), (not point blank range ofc)
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I played high level shotgunner and afaik, it's impossible to fight against any biggunner at close range, and of course impossible to fight against snipers at long range. Shotguns at close ranges are known for being the most mortal weapons. It just needs some improvements. There are lots of ways to do it. Since these weapons have the same price than other small guns, they should have the same power.
At what point? After the different shotgun bursts they should be similar dps as an avenger ... but cheaper and less range.
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Oh yes, also I want to see that minigunners, how fast he can rotate his facing, when crazy maniac with a knife running around and stabing him? ^_^
Also sniper rifle... yes... it must have at least the same penatly as scoped hunting rifle.
Minigunner would just bash his head open with his six barrels in a mega melee power paunch.
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Solar, u mad? The damage that an avenger dishes out is uncomparable to pankor, i've already said, 30-60 and 60-110+ VS a CA guy
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comparing pancor jackhammer to avenger minigun is funny as hell, also I find this thread entertaining (some dudes want to have a knockback on a shotgun which will just screw them up more since shotguns have low low range and other weapons have better)
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This is just what i'm talking about, thx for the understanding dude) Knockback will only screw them up.
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Make dif types of ammo.
Example. make 1 type that improve range.
1 type that is explosive ect...
Knokback? i dont see the use in pvp...
I mean be4 you are close enouf to use it, they shoot you down with LSW/Avenger/Sniper/rocked/Assault
Thats why i think dif ammo type makes the gun more usefull with example more range...
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Pancor - 18-29 (Average 23.5) 0 Damage mod => 23.5 Damage per bullet.
Avenger - 8 - 11 (Average 9.5) APammo 0.67 Damage mod => 6.365 Damage per bullet.
BoS CA DT - 8, DR - 40%
Pancor DRmod = 0% => (23.5 - 8)*0.6 = 9.3 Damage per bullet
Avenger DRmod = -35% => (6.365 - (1))*0.95 = 5.1 Damage per bullet
Pancor hits with 5 shells, 5*9.3 = 46.5
Avenger hits with ~13 bullets, 13*5.1 = 66.3
Pancor takes 6AP, Avenger takes 7AP so a fair comparison is 54.25 for the Pancor vs 66.3 for the Avenger (51 for the normal Minigun to compare)
Pancor costs $50 a shot, Avenger costs $354 and Minigun costs $265.5. Of course the range is lower, but we can't have every gun having equal range.
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Man Solar you really crack me up with all this math bro.Do you ever test all these figures out in the game?I dont really make it a point to stop and discuss numbers while im being torn to shred by a minigun.Maybe I should give it a shot some time.
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You do realize you're only moving about graphical representations of equations right? Those are the averages, they don't change because one is called a Minigun and one is called a Jackhammer.
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I do realize it looks that way but I dont see things play out so black and white most times.
Edit:I guess I should have just said that from the start because there wasnt really any need for me to be so sarcastic about it
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Probably because its hard to take a big enough sample to get a true reflection.
Anyway, Shotguns are a niche, but I don't think the complaints in this thread are an accurate reflection of it.
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I can give you an example of a sittuation I was in.I have a character with the kamikazee trait and I ran into a guy in waterworks with a combat shotgun,he caught me as i was coming around a corner and from 1 hex away he bursted me for around 45-50 damage which is about half my hp and I was wearing only Leather mk1 armor.I bursted him with my 10mm smg right afterthat from the same distance and dealt a whopping 150+ without even a crit and blew him to peices.He was wearing the same armor i was and his was even in better shape.I felt like I should have been the one laying on the ground in peices instead of the other way around.
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Luck - a combat shotgun is basically a 10mm SMG using the right kind of ammo (JHP vs low armour, AP vs high) - so it was an even fight in terms of equipment.
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How does luck factor into a burst from 1 hex away with no crits involved?
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I mean real life luck, not the SPECIAL Luck
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Im not sure about you sometimes Solar.On the one hand you respond to more posts than any other dev and on the other hand you bend about as much as a brick wall.
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Heh, I change my mind all the time, it just has to be achieved by a good arguement.
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I can give you an example of a sittuation I was in.I have a character with the kamikazee trait and I ran into a guy in waterworks with a combat shotgun,he caught me as i was coming around a corner and from 1 hex away he bursted me for around 45-50 damage which is about half my hp and I was wearing only Leather mk1 armor.I bursted him with my 10mm smg right afterthat from the same distance and dealt a whopping 150+ without even a crit and blew him to peices.He was wearing the same armor i was and his was even in better shape.I felt like I should have been the one laying on the ground in peices instead of the other way around.
It's all about how many of the bullets hit your target. The higher your weapon skill the better chance of landing each bullet. Also, bonus ranged damage 2 doesn't hurt either. + some crit perks and you have a good chance to deal nice damage.
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Thanks Strelok but im not looking for tips since i already know all of that,I was simply trying to give an example of shotguns being a bit underpowered.As far as not every bullet hitting is concerned I have to laugh a bit sometimes because at the distance of 1 hex from a target I feel like accuracy shouldnt even be an issue.As for weapons skill is concerned,it only reinforces my beleif that he should have owned me because my doctors skill at that point was only 120%.
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Knockback may be a little messed up to consider, but actually having its use may not be that bad of a thing. Comparing a shotgun face to face with a minigun or other long range weapon, makes no sense. The game is not a box. Every fight does not happen the same, over open ground.
Imagine using that shotgun in an urban setting. It's a nice little terrorist weapon. You see someone, you burst, knock them on their ass, then proceed to either gank them with more burst spam and keep them down, or hide. This is the same reason why I enjoyed playing with just GRENADES against full BG and other PvP builds. While crappy and low dmg to armored opponents, they could keep someone on their back indefinitely sometimes. I still remember the time I killed that BG in CA using just about.. 20-25 grenades. ;D
Anyway, it's a Shotgun. Treat it as such. It is not a MG. It does not shoot explodey things, not normally, though it'd be funny to see. Shotguns are excellent skirmish and guerilla type weaponry, maybe some should treat it as such. Knockback would make it even better for the role. A god-gun? No, doubtful, but certainly useful if someone stops thinking of the mass-charge tactics.
But what do I know. :/
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Man Solar you really crack me up with all this math bro.Do you ever test all these figures out in the game?I dont really make it a point to stop and discuss numbers while im being torn to shred by a minigun.Maybe I should give it a shot some time.
You are discussing one-time situations whereas Solar actually has the game mechanics sheet and tells you the number. Noticed that huge difference of 18-29 (11 points!) versus the tiny 8-11 (just 3) of Pancor and Avenger?
In short, this means that whereas damage with the shotgun can vary hugely, the minigun has pretty consistent results. When counting averages you do just that. To see such an average you'd need to take note of hundreds of bursts and compare those. In your limited experience you could, however, notice that shotguns are shit because in the handful of situations the bullets might have had a low roll (between 18 and 24) and thus dealt noticeably less damage (even just 30 if unlucky). On the other hand, an extremely lucky burst can do up to 63 damage to a bloke in CA.
(I did not factor in AP cost as Solar did, it's a factor in statistics too, but in real life you don't notice that)
But it's true that they're weaker. I mean, it's a minigun, they do serious damage :p
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Knockback may be a little messed up to consider, but actually having its use may not be that bad of a thing. Comparing a shotgun face to face with a minigun or other long range weapon, makes no sense. The game is not a box. Every fight does not happen the same, over open ground.
Imagine using that shotgun in an urban setting. It's a nice little terrorist weapon. You see someone, you burst, knock them on their ass, then proceed to either gank them with more burst spam and keep them down, or hide. This is the same reason why I enjoyed playing with just GRENADES against full BG and other PvP builds. While crappy and low dmg to armored opponents, they could keep someone on their back indefinitely sometimes. I still remember the time I killed that BG in CA using just about.. 20-25 grenades. ;D
Anyway, it's a Shotgun. Treat it as such. It is not a MG. It does not shoot explodey things, not normally, though it'd be funny to see. Shotguns are excellent skirmish and guerilla type weaponry, maybe some should treat it as such. Knockback would make it even better for the role. A god-gun? No, doubtful, but certainly useful if someone stops thinking of the mass-charge tactics.
But what do I know. :/
man pancor jackhammer is weapon that needs most materials for crafting (now recipes changed, so maybe i do not know something, but it still has to be at least one of those in top), so it has to be damn good in close combat, as close combat is the only situation it can be used in.
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Well, if Solar would be nice enough to solve this situation just by testing the damn Pankor and Avendger in game, using AP ammo VS a CA, especially nice it would be against a 2 Toughness person, that would be great. Solar, i'm sure your opinion would change dramatically.
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And seriosly, people stop telling shit that a shotgun is an RP weapon, RP is a really strange thing, the RP people should not be mentioned as this is a totally different part of the game, they may do some uncommon shit, as like i dunno, something completely worthless, irrational for example, they get the fun out of all this, there is often no sense in their actions.
We are discussing, why and what should be done to make the game better, to give people a choice between not only a Minigun, Sniper rifle, LSW,P90,Assault Rifle, Lazer rifle or maybe Plazma and Granedes, but also shotguns, the high tier ones that stand no chance VS other weapons right now.
Edit by Avant : try not to write one post after another, just edit your old one ;)
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We are discussing, why and what should be done to make the game better, to give people a choice between not only a Minigun, Sniper rifle, LSW,P90,Assault Rifle, Lazer rifle or maybe Plazma and Granedes, but also shotguns, the high tier ones that stand no chance VS other weapons right now.
It's a good vision, achieving it may demand big changes to whole pvp system.
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It's a good vision, achieving it may demand big changes to whole pvp system.
thats what open beta is for, to balance everything :>
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You really like giving people shit blahblah.I gave 1 example and i could give others but to be honest i dont really think its necassary as im not the only one on this thread giving their opinion.Maybe your right about my limited experiance since ive only been around for about 9 months but i feel like its been long enough for me to know how much i dislike shotgun due to their overall lack of power compared to other classes.I guess you could say that my experiance in hardcore PvP is limited but i would only tell you that TC isnt the only place to run into CArmored killers when your carrying a shotgun.I appreciate your input on the conversation i was having with Solar but im pretty sure it was already done and over with.If you notice i dont really respond to players very often because in reality its the devs who have the info and make the decisions but please feel free to comment on any other posts i make in the future.
Have a nice day
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Well, if Solar would be nice enough to solve this situation just by testing the damn Pankor and Avendger in game, using AP ammo VS a CA, especially nice it would be against a 2 Toughness person, that would be great. Solar, i'm sure your opinion would change dramatically.
Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:
Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8
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what about using ap ammo ;)
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That was with AP ammo.
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Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:
Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8
and now match their prices. Jackhammer is much more expensive, minigun has much bigger shooting range. So what about giving some edge to jackhammer?
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Pancor Cost=$5075 and $50 a shot.
Avenger Minigun Cost=$10085 and $354 a shot.
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screw these new prices :D
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[whisper] Jackhammers were always cheaper [/whisper] :P
Like I said, cheaper, damage in between Miniguns and Avengers and lower range.
From having such low range you can also plan to use 1. Lower SG skill than the BG skill required or 2. Keep the high SG but use Psycho! ;D
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[whisper] Jackhammers were always cheaper [/whisper] :P
Like I said, cheaper, damage in between Miniguns and Avengers and lower range.
From having such low range you can also plan to use 1. Lower SG skill than the BG skill required or 2. Keep the high SG but use Psycho! ;D
still, i think that knockdown, or progressive knockdown (from shorter range knockback, from longer range knockdown) would make this weapon both realistic and interesting. Now everyone who are small gunners are snipers, where are jackhammer masters with 1 perception ? :D
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Regardless, nobody seems to be using them. So why is that? Is it the small guns 3 requirement, or what?
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That was with AP ammo.
then you didnt use Bonus ranged dam perk - with AP ammo 2x that perk gives about 35 dam for avenger -range shot
and another thing is that pancor doesnt do 3x damage at point blank range...
and also the tougher target is BA+2 toughness (+possibly spycho) damage done by pacor will drop alot more then that of avenger
yet i dont say its worthless ...just that shotguns arnt a fucking pointblank canon
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Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:
Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8
This can't be, you must have done something wrong, have you taken the "bonus R dmg" perks? And Pancor's average can't be that high either.And besides, 10 shots are not good enough for a statistic research. If you mind finding me in game in CA armor I would gladly help to participate (I use pancor)
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This can't be, you must have done something wrong, have you taken the "bonus R dmg" perks? And Pancor's average can't be that high either.And besides, 10 shots are not good enough for a statistic research. If you mind finding me in game in CA armor I would gladly help to participate (I use pancor)
Good, I'm glad we agree. Please refer back to the average calculated earlier for a true comparison. Should've been something like 55.5 vs 66.3 for CA really, if my rough calculation can be trusted ;).
then you didnt use Bonus ranged dam perk - with AP ammo 2x that perk gives about 35 dam for avenger -range shot
and another thing is that pancor doesnt do 3x damage at point blank range...
and also the tougher target is BA+2 toughness (+possibly spycho) damage done by pacor will drop alot more then that of avenger
yet i dont say its worthless ...just that shotguns arnt a fucking pointblank canon
I don't remember perks being specified anywhere. Perks are about as far from balanced as I can imagine, so lets not use those as any serious balance.
The most obvious thing is Piercing reducing DT so much - for miniguns firing AP ammo your main defense is your DT, but currently it just gets wiped out. I wanted to reduce the effect from DT/5 to DT/3 when we wiped, but ran out of time to pester for it sufficiently (and all the other balance changes for guns too) - this would make Toughness and the higher armours slightly more effective vs Miniguns, as they should be really.
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Solar, thats great, but will it make high tier shotguns more usable? The dominating builds are BG (Minigun, Rocket(support most probablly) snipers (Lazer/SG sniper) and that's it, oh yea, almost forgot, burst P90 and grenade builds (less common due to their disadvantages and mainly their cost) meely is dead, and so are shotguns. If shotguns were good enough, I'm sure that people would use them much more than now (right now I encounter mostly BG builds and some snipers)
I seriosly think that boosting some unpopular weapons would add variety to the game, because a build is always based on gear, more usable gear-more builds-more variety.
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I think DT/3 would make the Jackhammer the best DPS burst weapon. Would make them the ideal urban weapon.
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I seriosly think that boosting some unpopular weapons would add variety to the game, because a build is always based on gear, more usable gear-more builds-more variety.
Adding "Penetrate" perk to all shotguns and magnum revolver. Or make 12ga -X % DR, or http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3416.0 , to make 12ga more useful.
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I think DT/3 would make the Jackhammer the best DPS burst weapon. Would make them the ideal urban weapon.
Not sure about that' the benefit seems to be quite low due to only 5 bullets per burst.
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nope
with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?
{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?
thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...
also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit
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also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit
I vote for aimed bursts from shotguns.
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nope
with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?
{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?
thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...
10+4?
*0.75 = *0.67? I've lost track on what's in the game and what's only on my spreadsheet at this point (I could only save the changed version when my computer had to be wiped :P)
DT/3 -> DT/5 makes only a little difference, indeed. But it makes just enough.
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nope
with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?
{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?
thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...
also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit
Sure this calculation is concerning the Avenger Minigun? Avenger hits with 15 bullets I think, also we're not taking into consideration the range, it's 35 VS 16(as far as I remember) And also the fact that Avenger at close range deals almost tripple damage compared to the damage at some range.
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still, i think that knockdown, or progressive knockdown (from shorter range knockback, from longer range knockdown) would make this weapon both realistic and interesting. Now everyone who are small gunners are snipers, where are jackhammer masters with 1 perception ? :D
If shotguns got an increased % chance to knockdown based on range (closer to target = higher % knockdown) as well as knockback (closer to target = higher % chance & higher distance knockback) I think we would be seeing a lot more shotguns in circulation, and we'd also most likely start seeing SG players equipping both a long range gun and a shotgun... :-\ I'd love to see some gradual changes like this to shotguns. ;D Might see some more SG tactics other than "run away and shoot everything in the eyes" used too... Unless it was incrementally added/raised and play-tested though this might increase the difficulty gap for melee players even more..
I would certainly be more inclined to use shotguns if this were the case, I might even favor them in some situations and purposely put myself in close range combat... :P
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avenger dam is 8-11 ...(8+11)/2 = 9.5 ... you can use that value but game rounds things so i used 10...
and 4 is due to 2x BRD you know...
as for balance i agree that BRD at this stage is too good the reason is AP idd
my memory is blurry but htere was no penetrate perk in fallout so when higher armor tiers kick in DT cuts dam of the base miniguns greatly.
and on other weapons the benefit is not so large
2x BRD is almost 50% dam increase for minigun!! we could use some change on this per idd ..maybe only one rank or +10%/+20% dam isntead (but that would buff all otehr weapons too (like rocketz))
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10+4?
*0.75 = *0.67? I've lost track on what's in the game and what's only on my spreadsheet at this point (I could only save the changed version when my computer had to be wiped :P)
DT/3 -> DT/5 makes only a little difference, indeed. But it makes just enough.
It is indeed a damage modifier of 2/3 (0.67).
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avenger dam is 8-11 ...(8+11)/2 = 9.5 ... you can use that value but game rounds things so i used 10...
and 4 is due to 2x BRD you know...
as for balance i agree that BRD at this stage is too good the reason is AP idd
my memory is blurry but htere was no penetrate perk in fallout so when higher armor tiers kick in DT cuts dam of the base miniguns greatly.
and on other weapons the benefit is not so large
2x BRD is almost 50% dam increase for minigun!! we could use some change on this per idd ..maybe only one rank or +10%/+20% dam isntead (but that would buff all otehr weapons too (like rocketz))
Game may round, but that is an average of whole numbers used by the game, so we can retain the decimal. We're ignoring perks, not only because they're not balanced, but also because we then don't have to bother factoring toughness in either 8)
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It is indeed a damage modifier of 2/3 (0.67).
hurm so wiki needs update atm not in game so cant check the 5mm ap
that would then change the math too....
as for toughness i assume 1 toughness = 9DT (slightly damaged BA) and 45% reduction - quite well averaged value. As for BRD we can safely assume 2x coz every sinle miniguner has it .ok lets keep decimal values
((9.5+4)*2/3-3)*0.9= 5.4 dam per bullet makes a total of 67 average dam not too fency pancor is much closer...but still point blankzzzzz.......
for comparison atm it is (assuming hte bullet 2/3 dam adj) 6.3 so around 75 dam per round
here is worth of noting that LSW does 15 per bullet in similar situation as avenger (4 bullets max hit at range makes 60 dam)
again - you cant help people thinking here me thinks that best solution here if you wanna give love to panzor would be make it knockback at point blank range if within game power -
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I thought a bit, so DT/3 would give a 5-round burst Pancor ... 10 damage, right? (Vs a CA without toughness)
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Well, Pancor doesn't have piercing, so it would remain exactly as it is now:
Pancor - 18-29 (Average 23.5) 0 Damage mod => 23.5 Damage per bullet.
Pancor DRmod = 0% => (23.5 - 5)*0.6 = 11.1 Damage per bullet
Pancor hits with 5 shells, 5*11.1 = 55.5
hurm so wiki needs update atm not in game so cant check the 5mm ap
that would then change the math too....
as for toughness i assume 1 toughness = 9DT (slightly damaged BA) and 45% reduction - quite well averaged value. As for BRD we can safely assume 2x coz every sinle miniguner has it .ok lets keep decimal values
((9.5+4)*2/3-3)*0.9= 5.4 dam per bullet makes a total of 67 average dam not too fency pancor is much closer...but still point blankzzzzz.......
for comparison atm it is (assuming hte bullet 2/3 dam adj) 6.3 so around 75 dam per round
here is worth of noting that LSW does 15 per bullet in similar situation as avenger (4 bullets max hit at range makes 60 dam)
again - you cant help people thinking here me thinks that best solution here if you wanna give love to panzor would be make it knockback at point blank range if within game power -
Again we are comparing by including perks, its an unfair comparison and pointless as perks aren't balanced themselves. If anything that would suggest adding a perk to give shotguns a chance of knockback.
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Again we are comparing by including perks, its an unfair comparison and pointless as perks aren't balanced themselves. If anything that would suggest adding a perk to give shotguns a chance of knockback.
mubles ... and again if perk is considered as menditory we need to take it into comparison ... its same like better criticals for snipers all critical effect balance need to be done assuming player has it... whatever you plan on nerfing BRD is another story.....
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Balancing weapons by factoring in perks that need to change only creates more work rebalancing them.
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I don't get it, if high tier shotguns are not going to be rabalanced in the neaest future, then when shall we get the perks rebalanced, and will this changes make this weapon class actually worth something in pvp? How much shall we have to wait for them? How many months, maybe years?
PS, oh well, back to the Avenger and sniper builds, other weapons have disadvantages and this ones don't... Why bother then, just leave the mausers and remove all the rest weapons from the game, who needs variety? Instead of feading us with some "possible future perk changes" it would be much better of you to actually do something, yeah-yeah we know it takes time, but as I see it, it's almost as essentual as solving the lag problem. Fucking tired of being surrounded with the same biulds and guns, give us a breath of fresh air.(I don't mean to insult anyone, but seriosly, people, come on, do something, at least try, you can always try for example to do something and see the results, if they are satisfying, then you've done the right thing, if not, well, try again.)
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Bulldog, I understand your "disappointment", I also like to use Shotguns, or even use Shotguns in PvP. At the moment, they're really to weak imo.
And of course it's a bit boring seeing just 2-3 different weapon types being used seriously in PvP.
And I know you'll hate me to say this, but FOnline is still under development (and will stay like this for a long time) by some fine guys who do spent really alot of their spare time. There are currently so many "construction sites", so many things to do, to create, to balance, to fix etc. So as I said you'll hate me for this - but we need to be more patient. ;) I'm sure someday we all can have a much more well balanced and developed FOnline - but it takes some time.
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Bulldog, I understand your "disappointment", I also like to use Shotguns, or even use Shotguns in PvP. At the moment, they're really to weak imo.
And of course it's a bit boring seeing just 2-3 different weapon types being used seriously in PvP.
And I know you'll hate me to say this, but FOnline is still under development (and will stay like this for a long time) by some fine guys who do spent really alot of their spare time. There are currently so many "construction sites", so many things to do, to create, to balance, to fix etc. So as I said you'll hate me for this - but we need to be more patient. ;) I'm sure someday we all can have a much more well balanced and developed FOnline - but it takes some time.
I apreciate, thanks, I guess this thread may be locked, keep up the good work, although there are many things to do, yet much has already been done, thanks.
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Since this thread is relatively free of spam and has a few good suggestions in it I don't see a reason to close it.
I don't wanted to be rude or stop the discussion, just wanted to make things clear, that stuff sometimes seems to be easier to develop than it is in reality. ;)
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I don't insist on closing this thread, I just understood that you think that it's too early to implement shotgun changes)
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I don't get it, if high tier shotguns are not going to be rabalanced in the neaest future, then when shall we get the perks rebalanced, and will this changes make this weapon class actually worth something in pvp? How much shall we have to wait for them? How many months, maybe years?
PS, oh well, back to the Avenger and sniper builds, other weapons have disadvantages and this ones don't... Why bother then, just leave the mausers and remove all the rest weapons from the game, who needs variety? Instead of feading us with some "possible future perk changes" it would be much better of you to actually do something, yeah-yeah we know it takes time, but as I see it, it's almost as essentual as solving the lag problem. Fucking tired of being surrounded with the same biulds and guns, give us a breath of fresh air.(I don't mean to insult anyone, but seriosly, people, come on, do something, at least try, you can always try for example to do something and see the results, if they are satisfying, then you've done the right thing, if not, well, try again.)
Pancor is inbetween a Minigun and Avenger for damage, costs half the price in terms of the weapon itself and 1/6th the price for the ammo. It is usable as it is. I don't currently have the time to play this through to prove it is so (I'm currently proving crafting rockets is fine - which it is, having crafted plenty of them by now ... its nice watching Centaurs explode) so its up to some enterprising player to remove range as a factor and PvP with a shotgun.
Perks will get rebalanced when they do, most of the time is being swallowed up by fixing up the lag/crash issues at the moment.
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Pancor is inbetween a Minigun and Avenger for damage, costs half the price in terms of the weapon itself and 1/6th the price for the ammo. It is usable as it is. I don't currently have the time to play this through to prove it is so (I'm currently proving crafting rockets is fine - which it is, having crafted plenty of them by now ... its nice watching Centaurs explode) so its up to some enterprising player to remove range as a factor and PvP with a shotgun.
Perks will get rebalanced when they do, most of the time is being swallowed up by fixing up the lag/crash issues at the moment.
Solar, I don't need any BS about it's damage, I'm a high level shotgunner, I pvp a lot and I can compare the damage of a minigun, avenger and a pancor, just a hint:in most cases it takes 2-3 bursts from a minigun to kill a CA high hp player, and it takes 4-6 to kill the same person with a pancor, give it a thought.
PS if you still don't belive me, find me in game, I'll convince you with some simple tests, provide you with a CA and super stimpaks.
PS sorry if I sound rude at times.
And by the way, the last question, why should a gun that suffers such severe range penalties and have such an increadible crafting price have such shitty damage and be worse than most of the guns in game? An smg at point blank range causes more damage than this baby? Do you really want all the players just make their builds around BG and sniper(lazer) rifles? We all understand (I hope that everyone does) that meely builds are dead due to the fact that you are unable to fix the engine that way so that one could hit and run at the same time, but what stops you from fixing the shell modifiers or the pancor charecteristics? You've managed to change lot's of weapons, what stops you now, stubborness or what? I don't know about the rest of the players (beta testers actually) but I've build more than 5 different types of BG builds, a couple of snipers, meely builds (all lvl 21) and I'm sick of playing the same builds over and over again, I want to play Fonline, but it's a real pain to know that there is such a small list of available successful pvp builds, while having such great variety of weapons that you simply don't bother to compare/fix/think of them.
And yeah, you know what most of the BG guys try to do when they realise that I'm using a pancor? They laugh and run towards me to burst me at point blank, cause they know that a super high power close range weapon (pancor) deals silly damage, but their minigun/avenger/P90 deals way more, and not even at point blank range, at PB they are just deadly, they also(exept P90 maybe, havn't encountered many of those guys) deal a higher damage at not PB range. Just compare, I've had a duel a few hours ago, I've saved the log;
11:26:27 • X was hit for 41 hit points.
11:26:27 • X was hit for 38 hit points.
11:26:34 • You were hit for 93 hit points.
11:26:35 • X was hit for 45 hit points.
11:26:35 • You were hit for 99 hit points.
11:26:38 • X was hit for 58 hit points.
11:26:44 • X was hit for 45 hit points and was killed.
Here's the minigun, we were wearing the same type of armor. I remember someone said that pancor is almost as good as a minigun, right?
And yeah I know that one duel is nothing for the statistics, but hell, I can bring you lot's of logs and they are almost the same as this one is, although I'm not always that lucky as to strike first. I've killed him, it took me 3 turns, then his friend apeared and finished me off with another minigun.
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Solar, I don't need any BS about it's damage, I'm a high level shotgunner, I pvp a lot and I can compare the damage of a minigun, avenger and a pancor, just a hint:in most cases it takes 2-3 bursts from a minigun to kill a CA high hp player, and it takes 4-6 to kill the same person with a pancor, give it a thought.
PS if you still don't belive me, find me in game, I'll convince you with some simple tests, provide you with a CA and super stimpaks.
PS sorry if I sound rude at times.
Already told you, Pancors are inbetwen Miniguns and Avengers for damage. Simple as that.
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so maybe add this:
http://www.hungrylizardstudio.com/art3d/pages/Gatling%20Shotgun.html
to FO :D
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Already told you, Pancors are inbetwen Miniguns and Avengers for damage. Simple as that.
Hm, inbetween, so you say that Pancor offers more damage than a Minigun and less than an Avenger?
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Noone reads my maths *Cries* - (my post on page 3 shows the comparative levels of Pancor/Mini/Avenger)
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How about adding this shotgun to the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c
Also frag-12 rounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI
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Pancor - 18-29 (Average 23.5) 0 Damage mod => 23.5 Damage per bullet.
Avenger - 8 - 11 (Average 9.5) APammo 0.67 Damage mod => 6.365 Damage per bullet.
BoS CA DT - 8, DR - 40%
Pancor DRmod = 0% => (23.5 - 8)*0.6 = 9.3 Damage per bullet
Avenger DRmod = -35% => (6.365 - (1))*0.95 = 5.1 Damage per bullet
Pancor hits with 5 shells, 5*9.3 = 46.5
Avenger hits with ~13 bullets, 13*5.1 = 66.3
Pancor takes 6AP, Avenger takes 7AP so a fair comparison is 54.25 for the Pancor vs 66.3 for the Avenger (51 for the normal Minigun to compare)
Pancor costs $50 a shot, Avenger costs $354 and Minigun costs $265.5. Of course the range is lower, but we can't have every gun having equal range.
Well, what more do I have to say? If pancor is that good, why don't people use it? And yeah-yeah perks will be rebalanced (in a couple of years maybe) and for now, have fun with the BG builds that outrange and outdamage any weapon in game (exept sniper/lazer rifle range)
PS Congratulations, Solar, you've just made this server happy with another BG(me) ;D
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Pft, you're about 2 months too late. All the cool kids are snipers now.
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Simply add another ammo type for shootgun.
Actually we have the 12 gauge pellet ammo that make -5AC and could eventually have a little area (like in tactics).
Put a 12 gauge slug that make +5AC cause it's harder to aim and -20% DR like FMJ.
In reallife a kevelar can't stop a hunting slug from any shootgun, so Leather armor should not be able to, putting -20% DR would help a bit at high lv and letting the actual 12 gauge pellet will let noobs or non fighter have a shootgun for self defence.
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Simply add another ammo type for shootgun.
Actually we have the 12 gauge pellet ammo that make -5AC and could eventually have a little area (like in tactics).
Put a 12 gauge slug that make +5AC cause it's harder to aim and -20% DR like FMJ.
In reallife a kevelar can't stop a hunting slug from any shootgun, so Leather armor should not be able to, putting -20% DR would help a bit at high lv and letting the actual 12 gauge pellet will let noobs or non fighter have a shootgun for self defence.
I like this idea (and actually any idea) that would somehow make shotguns better and more popular.
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I like this idea (and actually any idea) that would somehow make shotguns better and more popular.
Ehh, I giving the link 2nd time at this thread:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3416.0
Really, if make other 12ga ammo at SG1/2 and SG2/3 which requires HQ materials, noobs won't waste it on PvE much. Because it's impossible to make weapon more stronger than usual weapon by only lack of "range". If you'll make flamer imba, because it has low range, then it'll be an excellent PvE weapon, because you don't need range there. That's why adv. 12ga shells must be expensive.
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Yeah but on your thread i don't think putting many ammo types will help and -40DR it's seriously too much, it would be more deadly than 2mm ec :/
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Yeah but on your thread i don't think putting many ammo types will help and -40DR it's seriously too much, it would be more deadly than 2mm ec :/
1st: It's not my thread. ;p
2nd: I just wanted to show that crafting such shells must be pain in ass, so it will be used only in PvP.
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Why? Stats given (those i gave not a ridiculous -40%) are more or less the same as .44 and the magnum have almost the same stats than high tier shotgun, minus the explode issue, and they are clearly not overpowered.
So why metal slug ammo would be harder to make than a workbench, fire&arms and normal components.
Maybe 1 metal part and 9 gunpowder, don't think it would be unreasonnable. Or maybe 2 metal parts.
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What more can I say? Some armor piercing ammo or something like that would be an awsome idea, cause although some DEV's say that shotguns are in between the avenger and a minigun (which are actually not, due to the BRD and the point blank range shooting and simply range). But hell, the DEV's don't play the game, I guess they've never faced a Minigunner in a CA with 150+hp dealing like 60-110 damage to you wearing a CA with a pancor dealing 30-60 damage to them.
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But hell, the DEV's don't play the game
I'm level 21 already :/ That doesn't change the mathmatical fact of how average damage a pancor does.
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I'm level 21 already :/ That doesn't change the mathmatical fact of how average damage a pancor does.
So it's not an issue of damage. Then why aren't people using them?
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So it's not an issue of damage. Then why aren't people using them?
Pancor Jackhammer don't have his bullets spread on distance, so point-blank shot = shot at max distance. It's more powerful than P90C at non-close distance.
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So it's not an issue of damage. Then why aren't people using them?
Perks don't suit it. Sniper and Minigunners have their perfect perks as force multipliers, Shotguns don't.
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Perks don't suit it. Sniper and Minigunners have their perfect perks as force multipliers, Shotguns don't.
perk accurate doesnt suite for shotguns, since they are close distance and always 95% anyway and knockback or knockdown would be the perk they need: >
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well, the kids (noobs on lvl 1-3) need a gun they can hit easily with, even with a low skill, just so that they have a chance to survive leveling, and besides, nobody uses the normal shotgun after they hit a skill level of 150% and up, but all other shotguns should be changed, let the noobs have their double barelled "widowmaker"
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Been away for a while, read some change logs, noticed some weapon changes (feel glad a bit), anyone willing to improve the high tier shotguns by any chance? ;) I think it's a reasonable price for such low range blah-blah, the ones following this thread are already aware of my opinion and the players’ arguments for and against implementing this feature. ::)
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As Retrogator said, the shotguns should have the same damage but spread burst similar to rocket launcher xd of course less damage to make it balanced. it would be a nice feature
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I have a suggestion. While description of jackhammer says: "The Jackhammer, despite its name, is an easy to control shotgun, even when fired on full automatic. The popular bullpup design, which places the magazine behind the trigger, makes the weapon well balanced & easy to control." So this weapon is pretty much nerfec comparing to f2, and description says its well balanced and easy to control, why not to make it Min ST 2 for example. I think this could result in good lucky burster with jackhammer build, and it would be good since neither huge perception or sg skill would be needed :> what you think?
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We can add blue shells crafted from hq min. With more dmg from it.
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Shotguns are already great damage. Not a lot more to add.
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even if damage is good their range sucks hard, in f2 it was 35/25 for jackhammer now its 16, you should compensate that loss somehow to the weapon :>
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It has been compensated, by making it great damage. There are plenty of cramped places where range doesn't matter.
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It has been compensated, by making it great damage. There are plenty of cramped places where range doesn't matter.
close range doesn't matter. the sniper rifle doesn't take a minus for shooting at close range.
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If this were the case then Avengers would be useless aswell.
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It has been compensated, by making it great damage. There are plenty of cramped places where range doesn't matter.
the thing is that it hasnt been compensated not by even a single point of damage and range is nerfed fuckin much :>.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer_(Fallout_2) (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer_(Fallout_2))
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer
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Yet all bullets follow the central path, making it hit a lot harder in 2238 than the original.
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But they shouldn't. Bullets should spread, turning Pancor Jackhammer into a real shotgun instead of a simple modified FN FAL. Spread of bullets + Knockdown ability will turn FOnline's shotguns into real shotguns.
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But they shouldn't. Bullets should spread, turning Pancor Jackhammer into a real shotgun instead of a simple modified FN FAL. Spread of bullets + Knockdown ability will turn FOnline's shotguns into real shotguns.
So the knockdown chance should be increased for shotguns, like a critical chance? Otherwise one will be shot down multiple times, even before he could stand up and retaliate.
(Of course, if there's no teammates around to support him.)
Imagine that. A mere bluesuit shoots down a lone godlike lvl21 player to death with a shotgun. A horrific scenario :P
And a team of bluesuits will be able to keep a such poor powerbuild down until he dies, but that's not what we want, right?
Enough sarcasm from me. What i want to imply, that knockdown ability will support the teamplay of shotgunners. At the current time, even 5 bluesuits could pepper a minigunner PK with buckshots and be mowed down, since he stands there like a rock, smoking his superstimpacks. He even don't need to rely on his teammates. Truly godlike.
I'm done explaining, won't be implemented anyway, ah hell with it.
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But they shouldn't. Bullets should spread, turning Pancor Jackhammer into a real shotgun instead of a simple modified FN FAL. Spread of bullets + Knockdown ability will turn FOnline's shotguns into real shotguns.
Well, if it worked the other way it would be a modified FN FAL, since they work like any other bursters. Going down the central channel is a shotgun only trait now. If it corresponds to real life or not it makes Shotguns low range but powerful, perfect for close combat in cramped conditions - what they should be.
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Well, if it worked the other way it would be a modified FN FAL, since they work like any other bursters. Going down the central channel is a shotgun only trait now. If it corresponds to real life or not it makes Shotguns low range but powerful, perfect for close combat in cramped conditions - what they should be.
well i think we can compar 2 small guns in here, sniper rifle and pancor jackhammer, both cost close to same 5k, and since sniper is damn deadly in long distance, jackhammer should be in close ^^
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well i think we can compar 2 small guns in here, sniper rifle and pancor jackhammer, both cost close to same 5k, and since sniper is damn deadly in long distance, jackhammer should be in close ^^
Considering it is the ( If I'm wrong here tell me what is ) most powerfull shotgun in game...... It should be stronger against armored and drugged up opponents, mostly because of the name 'Pancor JackHAMMER" its supposed to beat the shit out of anything.
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well i think we can compar 2 small guns in here, sniper rifle and pancor jackhammer, both cost close to same 5k, and since sniper is damn deadly in long distance, jackhammer should be in close ^^
Considering it is the ( If I'm wrong here tell me what is ) most powerfull shotgun in game...... It should be stronger against armored and drugged up opponents, mostly because of the name 'Pancor JackHAMMER" its supposed to beat the shit out of anything.
Its comparable to an Avenger, not quite sure at what insane damage people would start considering it as "high" damage :P
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Its comparable to an Avenger, not quite sure at what insane damage people would start considering it as "high" damage :P
Avengers = one shot on kill.... almost always with right build.
JackHammer = .... we all know the outcome.
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almost always with right build.
This is a different matter. Miniguns currently have perks that suit them very well whereas Shotguns don't really.
The weapons themselves are fine and don't need touching.
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Then where are our perks?
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Existing only in the future, currently.
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This is a different matter. Miniguns currently have perks that suit them very well whereas Shotguns don't really.
The weapons themselves are fine and don't need touching.
even from max distance of avenger you can do 60 damage something to ba, and with jackhammer from any bigger distance you do exactly 0 damage, thats why it needs boost :>
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I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.
Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.
Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.
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What distance, skill %, etc....
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Distance was greater than 1 hex and skill was 300% in both. My guy has no perks other than Awareness and Silent Running.
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Distance was greater than 1 hex and skill was 300% in both. My guy has no perks other than Awareness and Silent Running.
Considering there's a perk giving 2 extra damage per bullet times two, for a total of 40 bullets fired you get 80 more damage, while with the pancor you gain 10. Take that into account when calculating next time, because it's the same if I'd compare a sniper rifle to a plasma rifle without better critical, for a LK1 character. We're talking about REAL numbers.
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Considering there's a perk giving 2 extra damage per bullet times two, for a total of 40 bullets fired you get 80 more damage, while with the pancor you gain 10. Take that into account when calculating next time, because it's the same if I'd compare a sniper rifle to a plasma rifle without better critical, for a LK1 character. We're talking about REAL numbers.
*Points at this very thing being discussed a few posts ago*
Though its actually more like a difference of +24.7 damage to +6 damage vs CA.
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I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.
Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.
Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.
no one is saying jackhammer is weak, but unlike other weapons he still cost a lot, but can be used in very rare occasions thus we expect it to be devastating weapon in those occasions where you can use it :>
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*Points at this very thing being discussed a few posts ago*
Though its actually more like a difference of +24.7 damage to +6 damage vs CA.
Thing is that we don't have a variety of ammo for shotgun to choose, so the penetration is very weak, so is the range and without penetration, the damage output itself is crap. That seems to be the main problem, as the gun itself is pretty decent, even for it's price.
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no one is saying jackhammer is weak
Next post
the damage output itself is crap
Haha.
Thing is that we don't have a variety of ammo for shotgun to choose, so the penetration is very weak, so is the range and without penetration, the damage output itself is crap. That seems to be the main problem, as the gun itself is pretty decent, even for it's price.
Damage output is great. As stated many times.
To give some figures behind that statement. The Jackhammer does 91% the damage of the damage and Avenger to CA and 128% the damage of the Minigun.
Even giving everyone 2 BRD levels it goes to 81% and 113%.
Note, I give you CA statss because its the weakest comparison for the Jackhammer, vs the other Armours its practically even to the Avenger without BRD being factored in.
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well anyway, if for example sniper rifle could shoot only targets that are more far then 16 hexes with same remaining cost i could say that then prices and weapons strength is balanced. Now its not no matter what numbers you give us, but people arent using it in fights for a reason (we are trying to tell).
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Damage output is great. As stated many times.
Great job on failing to understand what I've meant. Actually, go ahead and try yourself, who will win such a fight: a character with a BA and a Pancor or maybe a character with identical stats as the previous one, except that it's wielding an Avenger with AP ammo? Add the bonus ranged damage perk, of course. Oh, you can also do a quick test on a person under the influence of psycho, which is right now so common.
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Hmm if i say Jackhammer is good for TB pk and killing mobs - Avenger for RT pvp
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To give some figures behind that statement. The Jackhammer does 91% the damage of the damage and Avenger to CA and 128% the damage of the Minigun.
Even giving everyone 2 BRD levels it goes to 81% and 113%.
Note, I give you CA statss because its the weakest comparison for the Jackhammer, vs the other Armours its practically even to the Avenger without BRD being factored in.
Quoting the edit.
(Jackhammer still fine)
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(Jackhammer still fine)
now let me edit your post
(Jackhammer still fine) in 16 hexes range... a 5000 caps weapon!
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There are still situations where range is no object. Its even a whole hex more than Gren range ;)
But coming from the CBT where the PvP gangs were testing the new TC, there was a large amount of close quarter fighting where Jackhammer would have been their ideal weapon - sadly they hardly tried it.
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There are still situations where range is no object. Its even a whole hex more than Gren range ;)
But coming from the CBT where the PvP gangs were testing the new TC, there was a large amount of close quarter fighting where Jackhammer would have been their ideal weapon - sadly they hardly tried it.
well ok, lets imagine situation, you fight in pvp, there are 2 enemies, one behind corner, other 30 hexes behind corner, you jump up and then? you are dead anyway no matter what you do. And once again, because weapon range limits weapon to that kinda high amount, and weapon price is still high (other weapons with same or close to same price are much more universal and doubtfully if worse in close combat) it needs to be devastating in close combat. so something like knockdown (like rocket launchers without removing ap from enemy but delaying his action because of knockdown animations) would sound very reasonable on jackhamer.
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well ok, lets imagine situation, you fight in pvp, there are 2 enemies, one behind corner, other 30 hexes behind corner, you jump up and then? you are dead anyway no matter what you do. And once again, because weapon range limits weapon to that kinda high amount, and weapon price is still high (other weapons with same or close to same price are much more universal and doubtfully if worse in close combat) it needs to be devastating in close combat. so something like knockdown (like rocket launchers without removing ap from enemy but delaying his action because of knockdown animations) would sound very reasonable on jackhamer.
Since it is called the "Jack HAMMER" that would make perfect sense...
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well ok, lets imagine situation, you fight in pvp, there are 2 enemies, one behind corner, other 30 hexes behind corner, you jump up and then? you are dead anyway no matter what you do. And once again, because weapon range limits weapon to that kinda high amount, and weapon price is still high (other weapons with same or close to same price are much more universal and doubtfully if worse in close combat) it needs to be devastating in close combat. so something like knockdown (like rocket launchers without removing ap from enemy but delaying his action because of knockdown animations) would sound very reasonable on jackhamer.
Or imagine a situation where a gang is in a building shooting you when you enter, or you are insdie a mine, or in Marioposa, or in a town running round buildings. Jackhammer is then the equal to anything else you care to bring to the fight.
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Or imagine a situation where a gang is in a building shooting you when you enter, or you are insdie a mine, or in Marioposa, or in a town running round buildings. Jackhammer is then the equal to anything else you care to bring to the fight.
one frag grenadier would be enough in situation like that... and grenades cost 100 not 5000... you see what i mean if weapon is so range limited (same as jackhammer same as grenades) it needs to be gg hf maker to enemies (like grenades, not like jackhammer now).
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one frag grenadier would be enough in situation like that... and grenades cost 100 not 5000... you see what i mean if weapon is so range limited (same as jackhammer same as grenades) it needs to be gg hf maker to enemies (like grenades, not like jackhammer now).
Yea, nerf grenades! It should be support weapon with delay and ground fire, so everyone can use it, throwing skill will determine more accurate positioning.
Because it's silly to run with pack of grenades and throw at everything that moves again and again.
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Well, knockback doesn't magically make people go away. Jackhammer will still outdmage a Plasma Grenader
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Yea, nerf grenades! It should be support weapon with delay and ground fire, so everyone can use it, throwing skill will determine more accurate positioning.
Because it's silly to run with pack of grenades and throw at everything that moves again and again.
nah grenades are ok, dont forget that its quite expensive to use them on leveling yourself, you need to go gather/craft a lot they are ok, just jackhammer is not :>
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Well, knockback doesn't magically make people go away. Jackhammer will still outdmage a Plasma Grenader
i dont think there is a single grenadier without fast shot and bonus rate of fire and grenades for those people cost 2ap/throw, its damn easy to permanent keep your enemy knocked 1v1 till he dies. (plasma grenade doesnt have knockdown so im talking about frags in here)
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Well, constantly keeping people down is ridiculous, but this again is to do with Perks, not the stats of the weapon.
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Well, constantly keeping people down is ridiculous, but this again is to do with Perks, not the stats of the weapon.
hehehe...grab 20 nades a leather jacket and your ready pwn a powerbuild xD.
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Well, constantly keeping people down is ridiculous, but this again is to do with Perks, not the stats of the weapon.
well jackhammer shot or burst cost 5/6 ap without perks so if you will make only bursts knocking down for example, so it will coast 4 ap and you wont be able to keep your target knocked long enough anyway. And jackhammer would still have serious weakness - range, so now weapon would be just balanced, not overpowered not anything :>
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It is already fine. Its one of the best DPS guns out there. For close ranged knockback we have already talked about Grenades for example no need to duplicate their niche.
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I give my nothing-worth two cents for the side who says shotguns are worthless. Jackhammer is useful only in PvE or against bluesuits with eye-shots. Against guys with armors its a worthless piece of pipe that deals no damage. Snipers, miniguns, grenades and AP burst weapons (AR, SMG) deal 10 times the damage that thing will ever deal on a epic lucky powerful critical burst.
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Against guys with armors its a worthless piece of pipe that deals no damage.
I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.
Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.
Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.
:-\
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Both Solars teaming up. That Jackhammer damage looks good, but ive never dealt atleast half of that with Pancor. Also, that Solar's avenger damage for an avenger is total utter crap. You can squeeze hits over 300 from that thing. Finally, note that avenger has 2.5 times larger range.
P.S.
Im gonna do similiar experiment right now. Gonna take logs and screens.
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I'd rather use a desert eagle then a pancor quite honestly..
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I'd rather use a desert eagle then a pancor quite honestly..
BAHAHAA!.... That cracked me up man.
Wait your serious? Meh I'm sure you got your reasons, other than it has no Armor piericing chance, is useless against anything that shoots more than 20 hexes and action point amount used for such shitty shots isn't worth it ::).
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Nothing wrong with a deagle for certain builds, seems a lot of people don't realise how great Jackhammer damage is though. Oh well, their loss.
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Nothing wrong with a deagle for certain builds, seems a lot of people don't realise how great Jackhammer damage is though.
Against anything that doesn't have a shirt on.
Oh well, their loss.
Are you kidding? They be saving 5k everytime they don't buy one.
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Against anything that doesn't have a shirt on.Are you kidding? They be saving 5k everytime they don't buy one.
1. Against anything.
2. 5k for a weapon that does the same damage as a 10k one, so long as you can apply some tactics to use it.
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Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner they have same reflexes shoot at same time etc. Both have 2x BROF, 2x Toughness and ba. First player is with jackhammer, second player is with avenger minigun.
So both players have 12/50% resistance for purposes of not to get lucky lets say they have 1 luck and wont get to fire a lucky burst.
They both have 10 ap, what means they both will fire 2 bursts. (even if we would count more ap, now jackhammer would need to reload so 10 makes sense here). So as they both fire 2 bursts, we will count only 1 in here to simplify calculations.
Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is 23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.
Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/4) * 40 * 0.85 = 158.(66) damage per burst.
Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 40 * 0. 15 = 66 damage per burst.
So i dont know about your tests or anything, but from pure fonline maths we can see that "one of the best damage dealing weapons" actually sucks harder then hard.
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1. Against anything.
2. 5k for a weapon that does the same damage as a 10k one, so long as you can apply some tactics to use it.
*Drugs self to where 50% bodily fluid is a mix of jet, Psycho, and all the other drugs you can imagine*
How about now?
...no, not quite.
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Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.
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Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.
so we are talking about guns usefulness in battle not in imaginary playground where 2 players will fight with awareness and master salesman... These are numbers from players in battle, these are numbers showing the real truth.
P.s look at topic. Shotguns in pvp are useless, so yeah i made pvp calculations.
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Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.
As has been stated several times. It'd also be a good idea to ignore drugs too. I can only say so many times that we shall consider only the weapon itself since the other things are different topics for balance (as in the are nowhere near balanced).
*Drugs self to where 50% bodily fluid is a mix of jet, Psycho, and all the other drugs you can imagine*
How about now?
...no, not quite.
Not too bad when its an Armour By Pass. The nice healthy 3/1 damage modifier can do a nice job in this situation.
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so we are talking about guns usefulness in battle not in imaginary playground where 2 players will fight with awareness and master salesman... These are numbers from players in battle, these are numbers showing the real truth.
Solar already said the weapons damage (Jackhammer) is fine. It's that there are specific perks available for Snipers and Biggunners, that's why they are so common. That's why it's always better testing the base damage without any combat perks, to develop some new ones suiting for shotguns.
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Solar already said the weapons damage (Jackhammer) is fine. It's that there are specific perks available for Snipers and Biggunners, that's why they are so common. That's why it's always better testing the base damage without any combat perks, to develop some new ones suiting for shotguns.
dont need those bla bla bla... Solar said (too lazy to quote, if you need you can find) that there were many situations in king of the hill pvp tests where jackhammer could be even more useful then miniguns. And here i showed its usefulness by calculations, and i proved that topic statement (its what we are discussing about anyway) is damn correct.
P.s from calculations we also see that as you said guns needs to be balanced. So in first place why the fuck jackhammers range was nerfed by such ammount? It makes underpowered item even more underpowered thats not balance :> (Dont get me wrong, im not blaming devs, neither i am whining, from the very beginning of this topic im just trying to say that jackhammer needs one kind or another boost or lower its crafting requirements and of course price what is also a solution).
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Well, much as I hate having to go through other peoples stuff and without it being on a spreadsheet, but if you insist:
Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is 23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.
Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/4) * 40 * 0.85 = 158.(66) damage per burst.
Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 40 * 0. 15 = 66 damage per burst.
Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is 23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.
Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/5) * 13 * 0.85 = 62.62 damage per burst.
After piercing trait goes to DT/3 instead of DT/5 (This is why I was using CA instead of BA, because this makes no difference to it – changing perks!)
Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/3) * 13 * 0.85 = 40.52 damage per burst. (Jackhammer does 83% of this damage, even though Avengers have their perfect perks and the Jackhammer doesn’t yet - a normal Minigunwould do 77% of this)
Then for completeness JHP is actually:
Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 13 * 0. 15 = 21.45 damage per burst. (Jackhammer does 157.3% of this)
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one question, why you multiply out of 13 instead of 40? i thought avengers fire 40 bullets per burst...
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one question, why you multiply out of 13 instead of 40? i thought avengers fire 40 bullets per burst...
13x3=39
It speareds on 3 hexes.
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13x3=39
It speareds on 3 hexes.
"Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner" - these dudes dont have 3 hexes...
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"Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner" - these dudes dont have 3 hexes...
In point blank shot I guess avenger better... ^_^
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Comparing two ranged weapons from adjacent hexes is rather pointless, especially when the unique trait of one of the weapons is that it fires like its next to the target, but from 16 hexes away.
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Comparing two ranged weapons from adjacent hexes is rather pointless, especially when the unique trait of one of the weapons is that it fires like its next to the target, but from 16 hexes away.
So ok we can now make a conclusion, from very close distance jackhammer is useless, from lets say 10-16 hexes jackhammer is weaker than other best bursting weapons but it can compete, and over 16 hexes its useless once again. So you want people to use weapon with which they will have chances in 6 hexes fight ?
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No, we can reach a few conclusions.
1. From adjacent hexes all burst weapons apart from Shotguns are really really good, to the point where no other weapon should be balanced to compete with this insane damage from range.
2. From 2-16 Hexes Jackhammers can compete with the best burst weapon. Ignoring character perks they will do slightly more damage to every armour type except for CA than an Avenger Minigun.
3. Jackhammers are effectively Avengers from 2-16 Hexes, but cost half as much and cost only about 25% per shot. They also have less of a strength requirement and cost 2 AP less per shot.
Nothing wrong with Jackhammers.
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then i can add that if you will remove all perks from game maybe someone will use that jackhammer...
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They're still perfectly fine at the moment.
Sniper build, armed with Sniper Rifle and Jackhammer. Same cost as an Avenger, probably have to carry less cost of ammo.
You can take all sniper perks for your sniper rifle, when they close in you switch to the Jackhammer and you do 70% of the damage (99.33% when you correct for AP requirements) of a BG build carryiing an Avenger who has used up 2 perks on BRD. You then do more criticals than the Avenger char, so in the end you probably come close in raw damage terms too.
50->17 hexes you Sniper him, 16->2 you Jackhammer him, 1 hex you run.
Not that a pure Jackhammer build isn't great at the moment too.
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whats wrong with sniper rifle in close range? you still have same knockout chances i dont think that could prove useful :>
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For raw damage, a sniper would average out at 66% of a Jackhammers burst damage, even when you factor Snipers criticals in and don't bother to include the Jackhammers.
Its just an added layer of flexability that SG could enjoy.
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I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.
Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.
Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.
Solar, this numbers can't be true VS a CA player, at least think about it, who needs a minigun if a Pankor outdamages it? Don't be silly, I use a Pankor.
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Actually, those were done with 100% crits, lets do it again.
Jackhammer
Mercenary was hit for 33 hit points.
19:55:15 • Mercenary was hit for 49 hit points.
19:55:25 • Mercenary was hit for 57 hit points.
19:55:27 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
19:55:33 • Mercenary was hit for 51 hit points.
19:55:36 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:55:45 • Mercenary was hit for 61 hit points.
19:55:46 • Mercenary was hit for 11 hit points.
19:55:57 • Mercenary was hit for 50 hit points.
19:56:00 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:56:08 • Mercenary was hit for 61 hit points.
19:56:11 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
19:56:19 • Mercenary was hit for 55 hit points.
19:56:21 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:56:27 • Mercenary was hit for 15 hit points.
19:56:29 • Mercenary was hit for 12 hit points.
19:56:32 • Mercenary was hit for 13 hit points.
19:56:40 • Mercenary was hit for 55 hit points.
19:56:42 • Mercenary was hit for 52 hit points.
19:56:48 • Mercenary was hit for 56 hit points.
19:56:51 • Mercenary was hit for 60 hit points.
19:56:57 • Mercenary was hit for 51 hit points.
19:57:00 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:06 • Mercenary was hit for 64 hit points.
19:57:09 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:57:17 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:19 • Mercenary was hit for 57 hit points.
19:57:25 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:28 • Mercenary was hit for 47 hit points.
Average of 49.1
Avenger
• Mercenary was hit for 32 hit points.
20:06:22 • Mercenary was hit for 69 hit points.
20:06:26 • Mercenary was hit for 43 hit points.
20:06:30 • Mercenary was hit for 35 hit points.
20:06:33 • Mercenary was hit for 65 hit points.
20:06:37 • Mercenary was hit for 72 hit points.
20:06:41 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:06:44 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
20:06:48 • Mercenary was hit for 30 hit points.
20:06:52 • Mercenary was hit for 68 hit points.
20:06:55 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:06:59 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:07:02 • Mercenary was hit for 63 hit points.
20:07:06 • Mercenary was hit for 60 hit points.
20:07:10 • Mercenary was hit for 73 hit points.
20:07:13 • Mercenary was hit for 31 hit points.
20:07:17 • Mercenary was hit for 44 hit points.
20:07:21 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
20:07:24 • Mercenary was hit for 28 hit points.
20:07:41 • Mercenary was hit for 64 hit points.
20:07:43 • Mercenary was hit for 67 hit points.
20:08:03 • Mercenary was hit for 65 hit points.
20:08:05 • Mercenary was hit for 63 hit points.
20:08:09 • Mercenary was hit for 70 hit points.
20:08:13 • Mercenary was hit for 66 hit points.
20:08:17 • Mercenary was hit for 70 hit points.
20:08:20 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:08:24 • Mercenary was hit for 66 hit points.
20:08:33 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
Average of 59.8 (Jackhammer did 82% of the Avenger damage - adjust for AP and its 115%)
More what was expected actually, damn super crits :P
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Actually, those were done with 100% crits, lets do it again.
Jackhammer
Average of 49.1
Avenger
Average of 59.8 (Jackhammer did 82% of the Avenger damage - adjust for AP and its 115%)
More what was expected actually, damn super crits :P
I' sorry, Solar, but what do this crit calculations have to do with our topic? Are we expected to make some crit builds with pancors or something? The reason that I've made this topic is that right now we have basically 2 pvp builds, a BG and a Sniper/L Sniper, melee is dead in pvp, but that's not the point right now, I'm looking forward to making shotguns (as a type of weapons) to be good enough for the majority of players to use, because right now we have only 2-3 weapons rich pvp'ers use, like the sniper/laser rifle, avengers and plasma nades and this is it, I don't get it, like all the people who are against improving pancors say that they are as good as a minigun without 2 BRD, well, that's lame, due to the lack of -DR or even -/DT (DT will not improve the damage much) they are absolutely useless VS a CA guy, in case he has toughness or even two, this high tier canon becomes even worse, if he uses a psixo, you won't be dealing any damage at all (I guess). The range is 3 times less than the range of other high tier weapons.
Hell, people, if you want to stick to only 2-3 builds over years then we could just remove all the weapons and perks except for just about 4 weapons and about 9 "pvp must have perks"
The thing that kills me most is that the DEVs don't pay much attention to this thread, although we're speaking mainly of the way of making the game more fun and less boring and simple than it is now. The funny fact is that when there were the times when sneak ruled the game and any decent pvp build had to have a nice sneak, the devs nerfed it so that the game doesn't become just hide and seek, why don't you understand that this battles that consist of 4 weapons are not much better than a sneaking game?
And the most annoying part of this struggle is that you (DEVs) don’t even experiment with this shotgun parameters as you did with other features (such as sneak or crafting or many other things that we see in the change logs)
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I' sorry, Solar, but what do this crit calculations have to do with our topic?
The last post was without crits. The char has 1 luck and none were crits (I pasted those directly from the log).
And the most annoying part of this struggle is that you (DEVs) don’t even experiment with this shotgun parameters as you did with other features (such as sneak or crafting or many other things that we see in the change logs)
We have already changed the shotguns. They used to fire bursts like everything else, now they don't. They used to be weak, now they aren't.
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We have already changed the shotguns. They used to fire bursts like everything else, now they don't. They used to be weak, now they aren't.
Hm, I wonder, why don't people use them if they are not weak now? Maybe you have any ideas, Solar? ::) What is the percentage of players who use Pankors today? How efficient in pvp are they?
Well, you've made a change in the burst feature, did it make shotguns popular? Do Pankors stand a chance against other high tier weapons?
The part I like about this discussion is that it has more than 2400 views and plenty replies, this means that I'm not the only one conserned about shotguns(as a class of weapons)
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Players use some weapons that are rubbish and eschew ones that are good. Players can do whatever they like, but the Jackhammer is balanced for its niche.
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Hm, I wonder, why don't people use them if they are not weak now? Maybe you have any ideas, Solar? ::) What is the percentage of players who use Pankors today? How efficient in pvp are they?
Well, you've made a change in the burst feature, did it make shotguns popular? Do Pankors stand a chance against other high tier weapons?
My HtHer troll often dies by Pancor Jackhammer at orange circles near NCR, also BGers use it if they don't want to waste/don't have BG weapon.
It's not a main weapon, but good as side use weapon.
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My HtHer troll often dies by Pancor Jackhammer at orange circles near NCR, also BGers use it if they don't want to waste/don't have BG weapon.
It's not a main weapon, but good as side use weapon.
Ravenous, please read the name of the thread "shotguns in pvp-useless"
Returning to my point, Solar, you've showed us all those calculations, all the benefits of a pancor, you've compared it with a minigun, so you supose that it stands a chance VS a CA minigunner? (without criticals blah-blah) Or shall the Sniper/Minigun routine continue forever?
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Given that it does significantly more damage than a normal Minigun, of course it does.
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I can't imagine jackhammer winning against an avenger. Not because of damage , but becuse of 2 factors- range and the number of burst's before reloading. In real time combat animation time is rather important, so during reloading operation third burst from an avenger will come, most likely the last one for jakckhammer user, int the same amount of time avenger mean 3 burst while jackhammer only 2 and reload. One can say that 3 bursts from avenger needs more ap, but most of pvp builds runs on drugs, so haveing 16 ap is common for a junkie, and the only thing that matters before running out of ap is animation time. Lets imagine 2 drugged ca equipped that start shooting at the same time, the only difference betwen them is their weapon, so who will win? Thats pretty obvious. Its useless against a sniper too, beacuse he will run out of range and this will become running competition, unless sniper will fight back(high posibility to knockdown or knockout). How to use jackhammer then? You cant fight with it against a bg beacuse of the reloading frequency wchich is equal to the supreme firepower of avenger( more bursts at the same time).
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It was said a while back to ignore drugs and perks for this purpose.
As for how to use a Jackhammer, use tactics. Nothing says you have to stand in one spot and shoot. They are short ranged, so suit combat where there is lots of LOS blockers and allow a couple of bursts before you have to reload, so burst and run for cover.
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It was said a while back to ignore drugs and perks for this purpose.
As for how to use a Jackhammer, use tactics. Nothing says you have to stand in one spot and shoot. They are short ranged, so suit combat where there is lots of LOS blockers and allow a couple of bursts before you have to reload, so burst and run for cover.
Hm... Burst and run for cover... Tactics.... I remember jumping at a minigunner from a corner, I made 2 bursts with a pancor, he ran at me, when he understood that i'll never let him burst me at blank point, he made 2 bursts, I was reloading, a 3rd burst killed me, I had an awareness and counted that it takes 4 bursts to knock him down with -hp, I had all the possible advantages, I shot first,was at a range lower than 16 hexes, was wearing a CA 0 % Det and so on, and this was my average duel VS a minigunner. I had a very high hp build, 2 toughneses, 21lvl ofc. I don't consider myself to be a nub, just in case. I'm an experienced player and I can tell you for sure that a pancor vs a BG guy stands practically no chance at all. Ofc Solar may tell us about the godly damage of the pancor and the fact that it's more powerfull than a minigun but I actually played a pancor dude and a minigunner, and I can compare.
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Ignroing drugs and perks is meaningles beacuse combat with or without them is almost like two different mechanics.
Not couple but 2 bursts on a very limited range. Against a ca it gives a total of 100 hp damage. After this incredibly powerfull atack, getting cover waiting for ap to regenerate, reloading, healed bigguner attacks my position and turns me into a meatball. The only way for me to survive this kind of situation is to run to a place where he won't find me, most likely it will be wm.
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Ofc Solar may tell us about the godly damage of the pancor and the fact that it's more powerfull than a minigun but I actually played a pancor dude and a minigunner, and I can compare.
Me too, Pancor is more fun. Though when I did it wasn't so good. Still, 1 anecdote doth not balance make.
Ignroing drugs and perks is meaningles beacuse combat with or without them is almost like two different mechanics.
Talking about current perks and drugs when talking about final balance is meaningless because they are bound to change.
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Me too, Pancor is more fun. Though when I did it wasn't so good. Still, 1 anecdote doth not balance make.
Talking about current perks and drugs when talking about final balance is meaningless because they are bound to change.
Well then, how much time do you need to solve such a vital problem as a problem of only about 4 weapons being dominating in pvp? You've fixed many weapons, although I'm not aware of any changes that would have solved the problem of variety of balanced weapons and as a result-effective pvp builds.
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From what I saw on the TC cbt:
1. Avenger (and Minigun)
2. LSW
3. Laser Rifle (and Extended)
4. Sniper Rifle
5. Plasma Rifle
6. Plasma Grenades
I've seen more Assault Rifles beginning to be used in TC/Random PK too. Seen p90c's in there.
I assume at some point they will realise Jackhammers are good and begin to use these, where I asked them why they didn't use them they said psycho made them weak, which made no sense ;)
Of course at some point Piercing will go to DT/3 and thereby nerf some weapons vs some armours a little too.
An continued increase for AR, p90c and Jackhammers would make it nearly so at least the top gun in each sub class was used, probably outside of pistols.
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From what I saw on the TC cbt:
1. Avenger (and Minigun)
2. LSW
3. Laser Rifle (and Extended)
4. Sniper Rifle
5. Plasma Rifle
6. Plasma Grenades
I've seen more Assault Rifles beginning to be used in TC/Random PK too. Seen p90c's in there.
I assume at some point they will realise Jackhammers are good and begin to use these, where I asked them why they didn't use them they said psycho made them weak, which made no sense ;)
Of course at some point Piercing will go to DT/3 and thereby nerf some weapons vs some armours a little too.
An continued increase for AR, p90c and Jackhammers would make it nearly so at least the top gun in each sub class was used, probably outside of pistols.
This is just what I wanted to hear, if you'd specify the date or at least a time period when this changes occur that would be very nice of you.
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Hm, I forgot the RL from that list, I notice. Not too bad a list really, I think perk/drug rework could encourage the use of some other weapons too.
DT/3 should arrive before too long. I wanted to convince Atom of it before the wipe, but with everything that needed doing for the crafting I forgot to. Finally remembered to do it recently.
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Hm, I forgot the RL from that list, I notice. Not too bad a list really, I think perk/drug rework could encourage the use of some other weapons too.
DT/3 should arrive before too long. I wanted to convince Atom of it before the wipe, but with everything that needed doing for the crafting I forgot to. Finally remembered to do it recently.
Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...
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Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...
About time actually, too imba right now.
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Actually main issue with Jh is the range, but in Fo2 range was clearly too much, allowing hard hiting burst from the moon.
Personnaly i think there should be 2 ranges on for burst at close, seriously have you ever tried to be accurate with a shootgun in burst? With a Riffle it's allready quite hard, but a shootgun ...
So keeping the actual range in burst mod and making a real range in single shot would give it a little more interrest, for balanced builds while they are not now.
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Actually main issue with Jh is the range, but in Fo2 range was clearly too much, allowing hard hiting burst from the moon.
Personnaly i think there should be 2 ranges on for burst at close, seriously have you ever tried to be accurate with a shootgun in burst? With a Riffle it's allready quite hard, but a shootgun ...
So keeping the actual range in burst mod and making a real range in single shot would give it a little more interrest, for balanced builds while they are not now.
It might not be a good idea to compare weaponry of FON with the same weaponry in real life. You know, in real life a single bullet from most of the automatic weapons kills with ease. Miniguns are not actually used by bare handed soldiers due to insane recoil, they are used on helicopters and vehicles. I've never heard of any cases of people surviving a rocket shot directly at them via a rocket luncher of any kind and so on... And if you'd like to make shotguns more real life like, you'll have to make it deadlier than an assault rifle or a p-90 at point blank, if automatic/semi-automatic weapons penetrate with their bullets, shotguns simply rip a hole in ones flesh. :P
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OMG, yeah you are right, so lets make Miniguns throwing fries and contamining those who are hit, flamethrowers that launch vorpal rabbits and FN Fals single shot that instakill at point blank.
Seriously, i mean in real life no matter the gun if you are hit you almost die badly. Is it a reason for not taking in account some of real life scale in things when balancing? If we don't care a bit about reality why use weapon from real world, lets go with things like in doom ...
Now this need a balance and if i'm not for being exactly at reality cause it would suck the game, maybe inspiring a bit to make a balance would be great and i don't see the point in your intervention here. What i said was so stupid someone needed to come tell me how life work or not? I ve done a simu for guns and it's not the first time i try to help about balancing some guns, like for AR, so you don't like the idea, good for you, the fact is that damages for most weapons are allready well rounded and messing with damages will directly break this, so there should be other way, and spreading seem to be not that easy to put or i think it would already be in game.
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Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...
where did you get that miniguns are getting nerfed? They don't have piercing.
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where did you get that miniguns are getting nerfed? They don't have piercing.
AP ammo does.
Its actually a reasonably small nerf to some weapons vs Metal Armours and CA II/BA. It also makes toughness a bit more worthwhile vs those weapons too.
Avenger will still be the #1 DPS dealer, just not by as much.
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My idea actually is that the more benefits (for example range, damage, price, ammo, /DT, -DR, *DM) one weapon has, the more minuses it should have, like for example, if a weapon has shitty range, it should be godly in close combat, a weapon with a range of 50 should be less powerful and so on, the good part about fallout is that each weapon has many variable characteristics, and this makes balancing more fun and opens a wide variety of choice. Avenger with it's range, ammo and lethality is absolute imba.
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My idea actually is that the more benefits (for example range, damage, price, ammo, /DT, -DR, *DM) one weapon has, the more minuses it should have, like for example, if a weapon has shitty range, it should be godly in close combat, a weapon with a range of 50 should be less powerful and so on, the good part about fallout is that each weapon has many variable characteristics, and this makes balancing more fun and opens a wide variety of choice. Avenger with it's range, ammo and lethality is absolute imba.
Lol... Avenger ammo imba? Man, it's the MOST expansive weapon to use (if we forget Gatling), expansive to craft too, range already nerfed, lethality about to be nerfed too. No avenger stand a chance against a sniper at max range, and no sniper stand a chance against an avenger at his range. I call it balanced. Just learn some tactics, and you will die less often by avenger burst.
Well anyway I can't say if it gonna be a good nerf or not, but anyway, I will have to change my build... ;p
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AP ammo does.
Its actually a reasonably small nerf to some weapons vs Metal Armours and CA II/BA. It also makes toughness a bit more worthwhile vs those weapons too.
Avenger will still be the #1 DPS dealer, just not by as much.
You should clarify as piercing is a weapon perk not an attribute of ap ammo.
Could you elaborate on dt/3? dt = ? damage taken? if you nerf it down to 1/3 from 2/3 ap rounds will do nothing, the minigun is only useful at like 1 hex against hard targets as it is.
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AP ammo gives the weapon piercing. Piercing currently means that DT is divided by 5. Soon DT will be divided by 3 for this instead.
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You should clarify as piercing is a weapon perk not an attribute of ap ammo.
Could you elaborate on dt/3? dt = ? damage taken? if you nerf it down to 1/3 from 2/3 ap rounds will do nothing, the minigun is only useful at like 1 hex against hard targets as it is.
as far as I know DT is damage threshold, and an AP ammo burst at blank point is effective even against addicts with insane DR, take 2-3 to kill one (at least it did before, when I tested it)
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Lol... Avenger ammo imba? Man, it's the MOST expansive weapon to use (if we forget Gatling), expansive to craft too, range already nerfed, lethality about to be nerfed too. No avenger stand a chance against a sniper at max range, and no sniper stand a chance against an avenger at his range. I call it balanced. Just learn some tactics, and you will die less often by avenger burst.
Well anyway I can't say if it gonna be a good nerf or not, but anyway, I will have to change my build... ;p
I know it's expensive but it's a must for a good BG, if you made the price 10 times higher and craft 20 times, people would still use it... " No avenger stands a chance against a sniper at max range" you say? Before telling me to learn some tactics, get some brains. Not only snipers are not 1 shot killers all day long, but also 15 hex is not that much if you know what I mean, but actually I don't want to waste any time trying to explain you anything. You just really pissed me off, and yeah, I've tried more than 7 BG avenger builds during 3rd beta test.
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I know it's expensive but it's a must for a good BG, if you made the price 10 times higher and craft 20 times, people would still use it... " No avenger stands a chance against a sniper at max range" you say? Before telling me to learn some tactics, get some brains. Not only snipers are not 1 shot killers all day long, but also 15 hex is not that much if you know what I mean, but actually I don't want to waste any time trying to explain you anything. You just really pissed me off, and yeah, I've tried more than 7 BG avenger builds during 3rd beta test.
Well you only need one arm cripple to render a bg char useless as they have no one handed weapons, if they are in rt maybe 2 arm cripples but in tb they are screwed.
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Well you only need one arm cripple to render a bg char useless as they have no one handed weapons, if they are in rt maybe 2 arm cripples but in tb they are screwed.
From my personal experience, people seem seldom to aim for the arms, although I remember one funny bluesuit that took revenge over me, he used all the mauser ammo he got from one of the reno quests to completely cripple me, he crippled me totally and didn't let me to escape the map border untill he ran out of ammo. This took place in the times when the cripple chance was not nerfed as it is now.
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From my personal experience, people seem seldom to aim for the arms, although I remember one funny bluesuit that took revenge over me, he used all the mauser ammo he got from one of the reno quests to completely cripple me, he crippled me totally and didn't let me to escape the map border untill he ran out of ammo. This took place in the times when the cripple chance was not nerfed as it is now.
Cripple chance (for arms) is currently the highest its ever been.
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Cripple chance (for arms) is currently the highest its ever been.
Which sucks for bgers as they don't have one handed weps
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Which sucks for bgers as they don't have one handed weps
Wow, the second thing after drugs that can make BG unhappy, lets remove drugs and make their arms invulnerable to crippling, imagine some armour plated gloves that come with a minigun as a bonus!
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or we could add an oversized handgun for the big gunners
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/nero_orog/Misc/Gun5.jpg)
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or we could add an oversized handgun for the big gunners
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/nero_orog/Misc/Gun5.jpg)
Yeah, do so, so that BG won't need tons of ammo to lvl up, great idea.
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Think of it this way.
With shotgun you never miss.
With shotgun you always get best result.
Even if the result isn't the best.
Its consistent.
Burtal against sneakers/bluesuits.
Just burst your ass off and you'll be satisfied.
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Think of it this way.
With shotgun you never miss.
With shotgun you always get best result.
Even if the result isn't the best.
Its consistent.
Burtal against sneakers/bluesuits.
Just burst your ass off and you'll be satisfied.
Hm... brutal against sneakers and bluesuits, hell yeah if they don't wear armour, and now compare it to a minigun with like JHP ammo for example, besides, who would go hunting bluesuits, only assholes because that's lame, bluesuits are most likely nubs, cause an experienced player knows what to do and how to obtain gear fast, besides experienced players don't hang out in unguarded towns cause it's a sure death due to the fact that there are people like you who just spend their time killing bluesuits and ruining the beginners game experience. And the last thing I'd like to add is the thing that you should first read the name of the topic, let me help you "shotguns in pvp-useless" the main word here is PVP, not killing defenceless nubs.
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Hm... brutal against sneakers and bluesuits, hell yeah if they don't wear armour, and now compare it to a minigun with like JHP ammo for example, besides, who would go hunting bluesuits, only assholes because that's lame, bluesuits are most likely nubs, cause an experienced player knows what to do and how to obtain gear fast, besides experienced players don't hang out in unguarded towns cause it's a sure death due to the fact that there are people like you who just spend their time killing bluesuits and ruining the beginners game experience. And the last thing I'd like to add is the thing that you should first read the name of the topic, let me help you "shotguns in pvp-useless" the main word here is PVP, not killing defenceless nubs.
Way to rage man I never said I killed bluesuits but I do kill sneakers of which are normally bluesuits or leather jackets (btw Leather jackets are practically useless against a combat shotgun) so don't assume I'm some Ass Bsker but as i've already admitted I almost always kill bluesuits who enter my encounter.
Hell on my way back to ncr from tent I came across some newbies that were exping molerats, one had a flamer 78hp the other magneto laser 48hp. I have 135 hp, assault rifle and plenty perfect ammo/range to pk them, but I didnt. Don't ask for a log I didn't think that situation would be worth mentioning in the future.
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Way to rage man I never said I killed bluesuits but I do kill sneakers of which are normally bluesuits or leather jackets (btw Leather jackets are practically useless against a combat shotgun) so don't assume I'm some Ass Bker but as i've already admitted I almost always kill bluesuits who enter my encounter.
Hell on my way back to ncr from tent I came across some newbies that were exping molerats, one had a flamer 78hp the other magneto laser 48hp. I have 135 hp, assault rifle and plenty perfect ammo/range to pk them, but I didnt. Don't ask for a log I didn't think that situation would be worth mentioning in the future.
Man, don't you get it, we are discussing serious pvp, not some half-naked 48 hp players. Do you think you could stand a chance vs a BG in CA, wearing the same armour, even if he had a minigun, not an avenger and didn't have the BRD perks? I doubt that.
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Man, don't you get it, we are discussing serious pvp, not some half-naked 48 hp players. Do you think you could stand a chance vs a BG in CA, wearing the same armour, even if he had a minigun, not an avenger and didn't have the BRD perks? I doubt that.
Being a Charisma character as long as I have my mercs backing me up yes against ONE I probably could.
Besides sneak naders are serious killers.
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Come on guys, we need that shotguns fix. ::)
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Being a Charisma character as long as I have my mercs backing me up yes against ONE I probably could.
Besides sneak naders are serious killers.
And what the hell, we're discussing shotguns damage, not plasma nades.
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If nothing else Shotguns need some different ammo options I think. I'd like to see incendiary or white phospherous or even flachette rounds heh. It's not like NATO's chilling out in the Calfornia wasteland condemning people for warcrimes in their choice of munitions heh. 12 gauge buck shot hits pretty hard but let's be honest it doesn't do nearly so much as a rifled round would. Mean while while incendiary or explosive shotgun rounds would be better than sex out in the wasteland.
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nothing is better than sex, not even out in the wasteland, sex is the ultimate hobby
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Well then let's convince the mods to make high tier shotguns sexy!
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please read this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8874.msg76131#msg76131
PS F*cking hilarious idea, GJ devs, u've just killed this weapon
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I'd like to point out how bad shotgun and sawed off shotguns are: if you want to burst, for 9 aps (reload included) you deal about 30 dmg.
Make shotguns spread its shots in cone formation. Up the damage for sawed off shotguns, normal shotguns and raise their range. This way they would deal most damage at close range, and pointless damage over longer distance, unless you fired in a group of enemies.
Shotguns can't really be fixed fast to represent shotguns in rational way, this is because we lack certain weapon perks and features that existed in fallout tactics for example.
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With everything we have to do, you can imagine just how far off inventing a new way for burst to work for one type of gun is.
please read this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8874.msg76131#msg76131
PS F*cking hilarious idea, GJ devs, u've just killed this weapon
Avenger before 7 AP -> 5AP, now 7AP -> 6 AP .... now does 83.33% of its old DPS
Jacklhammer before 6 AP -> 4AP, now 6 AP -> 5 AP
18-29 is 23.5 average damage = 5.875 per AP (with 2 BRD its 6.875)
20-31 is 25.5 average damage = 5.1 per AP (with 2 BRD its 5.9)
Does 86.8% of its old damage (with 2 BRD its 85.8%).
So in reality it was a 4.2% boost in real terms (with 2 BRD its 3% boost), as the Avenger was the relative point that all other weapons changed to. Not to mention it can now fire 3 times before having to reload, making it equal to most other burst type weapons.
If both of those boosts have ruined this weapon (which was perfectly serviceable before anyway) then ... well, unlucky.
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Does anyone want to share his or her ideas on current situation concerning fast shot and shotguns?
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burst SG build was quite powerful, still is even considering the range situation... of course t1 shotguns will always suck for pvp. the combat shotgun is good enough to pvp with and you're just crazy if you think pancor burst dmg isnt high enough. the AP cost is justified because it will force you to rethink your build if you cannot burst twice in one turn, forcing you to either play in RT if you wish to do the same build, or work a different shotgun build out.
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burst SG build was quite powerful, still is even considering the range situation... of course t1 shotguns will always suck for pvp. the combat shotgun is good enough to pvp with and you're just crazy if you think pancor burst dmg isnt high enough. the AP cost is justified because it will force you to rethink your build if you cannot burst twice in one turn, forcing you to either play in RT if you wish to do the same build, or work a different shotgun build out.
Ever heard of shotguns crappy range and shitty ammo? Fast shot was one of the rare useful traits for a shot-gunner .
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Or to look at it another way, Shotguns are useful without many other traits.
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uh what the hell are you on about? pre-wipe a pancor burst build in just ma mk2 could easily take down a 250 hp character. the range isnt even that bad. can he stand toe-to-toe with a minigun character and win? of course not, but thats not what SG burst is about.
now the pancor is buffed, i've personally used it myself, its very potent and shotgun shells are not awesome but not terrible either.
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Well then , Solar and zato1, I doubt that this new "awesome" feature will somehow make pancors useful and popular. I haven't met a shot-gunner after the wipe. (only 2 before the wipe btw) Is this your idea of variety of builds in the wastes?
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Well, depends if we're balancing by anecdote or not.
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i don't understand the problem. if you are 2h sg burster you are not LIMITED to the shotgun if you feel it is not a good weapon. you have the option of the assault rifle, which is kickass, and the FN FAL which is truly exceptional for bursting if you manage to find enough ammo for it. i mean really? the shotgun is a close range weapon with a powerful burst. the limitation of the weapon is obvious... range.
if you're a sg burster and you bring a shotgun to somewhere like... reno, yeah unless you can get up in someones face on the grids you are gonna get shot down. this is why you don't limit yourself to one weapon because you think its "cool"... the limitation of the shotgun is a natural limiter in its power... think to real life, shotguns are the most powerful anti-infantry weapons made besides large caliber weapons. we are consistently seeking to develop new futuristic ways to overcome the natural deficiency of shotguns.
the only thing i agree with that has been stated earlier, is that the shotgun should knock BACK on a critical hit only, burst or not, like a rocket launcher or grenade. this would make shotguns very viable as a "use all the time" weapon instead of how it is now... "use it if you'll be in close quarters only" and will hopefully give some viability to "melee" gun users.
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I guess a 5 AP high tier shotgun burst would have solved the problem once and for all. Due to some strange reason, although every person on this forum knows the popularity of these weapons and probably knows the reason for this, everyone pretends that it's even better to nerf an already unpopular, nerfed in almost all the possible ways there are weapon class. Such suggestions as "knock down on crit blah-blah" are crap, maybe you would suggest some godly crit-knock down build using pancors?
PS
This thread has been read over 4k times with over 17 pages of arguments and ideas, thanks for the support everyone, and I do hope that our efforts will make the DEVs pay attention to our ideas and thoughts.
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As stated, it wasn't nerfed, it was infact slightly buffed.
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If we compare it to the original fallout, it's nerfed in terms of range, but that's not the point of my post, I agree that the range was too big for a shotgun.
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What's then your point? Especially the Pancor Jackhammer is a very deadly weapon.
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I've been shooting some geckos, ghouls, brahmins, rats and raiders recently with CAWS. When shooting single unaimed shots, the damage isn't actually any better than for example 10mm pistol or magnum. I end up doing about 12-21 damage per shot, while magnum and 10mm do about 10-19. It's hardly any better damage especially when you notify that caws takes 5 aps to fire. Also caws costs 4k and those pistols less than tenth of it. Surely caws can burst, but unaimed single should be the basic unit of damage output and who wants to burst brahmins?
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Pancor got 35 range in fallout 2 and now?
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What's then your point? Especially the Pancor Jackhammer is a very deadly weapon.
Deadly you say, hmm, maybe you would then share your ideas concerning it's ~zero popularity then? Maybe you suppose that the whole server is just blind ignoring this weapon or maybe there is something else about it?
Pancor got 35 range in fallout 2 and now?
now it's range is nerfed to 16
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All that I can say is that I haven't made enoguh PvP with new system to say something like you just said.
Pancor become really interesting IMO.
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now it's range is nerfed to 16
This game sucks,but i like this game anyway :P
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All that I can say is that I haven't made enoguh PvP with new system to say something like you just said.
Pancor become really interesting IMO.
The wipe was on the 30th, on the first I was already wielding a pancor, trust me it hasn't... but feel free to test it yourself. This is just my personal opinion ofc.
It would be worth it's price and competitive if it wasn't for the new "Fast shot" trait.
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So, any pancor users seen recently? Why is this "godly" weapon unused after that awesome damage boost?
...irony
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The wipe was on the 30th, on the first I was already wielding a pancor, trust me it hasn't... but feel free to test it yourself. This is just my personal opinion ofc.
It would be worth it's price and competitive if it wasn't for the new "Fast shot" trait.
HE SPEAKS DE TRUTH MON.
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the new pancor was an unbelievable boon to my leveling at the beginning of this wipe... its also excellent for use on people in medium and light armor.
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So, any pancor users seen recently? Why is this "godly" weapon unused after that awesome damage boost?
It's too expensive.
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The wipe was on the 30th, on the first I was already wielding a pancor, trust me it hasn't... but feel free to test it yourself. This is just my personal opinion ofc.
It would be worth it's price and competitive if it wasn't for the new "Fast shot" trait.
prewipe, fast shot was a force to be reckoned with! Now, it's just an option when making a fast pistoler. Do you think that the nerf helped balance PvP at all?
My input on that question is that snipers and cripplers are increasingly more popular now, while BGers and bursters are seaming to die out.
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prewipe, fast shot was a force to be reckoned with! Now, it's just an option when making a fast pistoler. Do you think that the nerf helped balance PvP at all?
My input on that question is that snipers and cripplers are increasingly more popular now, while BGers and bursters are seaming to die out.
Things should get better in terms of balance when the devs nerf the crits.
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Things should get better in terms of balance when the devs nerf the crits.
how do you figure?
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prewipe, fast shot was a force to be reckoned with! Now, it's just an option when making a fast pistoler. Do you think that the nerf helped balance PvP at all?
My input on that question is that snipers and cripplers are increasingly more popular now, while BGers and bursters are seaming to die out.
yeah guys with 250 hp and 2 bursts arent as popular as before. *facepalm*
picking the newb class will always be popular, snipers and cripplers are the only way to defeat the burster/ew aimbot pvp builds. the only weapon that matters is the one you're using your aimbot with in pvp anyway. all these discussions about pvp have no merit because not everyone is playing the same game. til they ban alll the cheaters or otherwise regulate the playing field it'll never matter what you do.
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It's not cheat:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=9691.msg84046#msg84046
Just download it.
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Sup? Any new feelings or ideas or are Shotguns a kick-ass weapon right now?
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Sup? Any new feelings or ideas or are Shotguns a kick-ass weapon right now?
Hell no, still shitty.
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Accurate perk isn't particularly useful when everyone is going to hit for 95% anyway.