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[vedaras]

one question, why you multiply out of 13 instead of 40? i thought avengers fire 40 bullets per burst...

[RavenousRat]

one question, why you multiply out of 13 instead of 40? i thought avengers fire 40 bullets per burst...

13x3=39
It speareds on 3 hexes.

[vedaras]

13x3=39
It speareds on 3 hexes.

"Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner" -   these dudes dont have 3 hexes...

[RavenousRat]

"Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner" -   these dudes dont have 3 hexes...

In point blank shot I guess avenger better... ^_^

[Solar]

Comparing two ranged weapons from adjacent hexes is rather pointless, especially when the unique trait of one of the weapons is that it fires like its next to the target, but from 16 hexes away.

[vedaras]

Comparing two ranged weapons from adjacent hexes is rather pointless, especially when the unique trait of one of the weapons is that it fires like its next to the target, but from 16 hexes away.

So ok we can now make a conclusion, from very close distance jackhammer is useless, from lets say 10-16 hexes jackhammer is weaker than other best bursting weapons but it can compete, and over 16 hexes its useless once again. So you want people to use weapon with which they will have chances in 6 hexes fight ?

[Solar]

No, we can reach a few conclusions.

1. From adjacent hexes all burst weapons apart from Shotguns are really really good, to the point where no other weapon should be balanced to compete with this insane damage from range.
2. From 2-16 Hexes Jackhammers can compete with the best burst weapon. Ignoring character perks they will do slightly more damage to every armour type except for CA than an Avenger Minigun.
3. Jackhammers are effectively Avengers from 2-16 Hexes, but cost half as much and cost only about 25% per shot. They also have less of a strength requirement and cost 2 AP less per shot.

Nothing wrong with Jackhammers.

[vedaras]

then i  can add that if you will remove all perks from game maybe someone will use that jackhammer...

[Solar]

They're still perfectly fine at the moment.

Sniper build, armed with Sniper Rifle and Jackhammer. Same cost as an Avenger, probably have to carry less cost of ammo.

You can take all sniper perks for your sniper rifle, when they close in you switch to the Jackhammer and you do 70% of the damage (99.33% when you correct for AP requirements) of a BG build carryiing an Avenger who has used up 2 perks on BRD. You then do more criticals than the Avenger char, so in the end you probably come close in raw damage terms too.

50->17 hexes you Sniper him, 16->2 you Jackhammer him, 1 hex you run.


Not that a pure Jackhammer build isn't great at the moment too.

[vedaras]

whats wrong with sniper rifle in close range? you still have same knockout chances i dont think that could prove useful :>

[Solar]

For raw damage, a sniper would average out at 66% of a Jackhammers burst damage, even when you factor Snipers criticals in and don't bother to include the Jackhammers.

Its just an added layer of flexability that SG could enjoy.

[Bulldog]

I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.

Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.

Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.

Solar, this numbers can't be true VS a CA player, at least think about it, who needs a minigun if a Pankor outdamages it? Don't be silly, I use a Pankor.

[Solar]

Actually, those were done with 100% crits, lets do it again.

Jackhammer

Mercenary was hit for 33 hit points.
19:55:15 • Mercenary was hit for 49 hit points.
19:55:25 • Mercenary was hit for 57 hit points.
19:55:27 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
19:55:33 • Mercenary was hit for 51 hit points.
19:55:36 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:55:45 • Mercenary was hit for 61 hit points.
19:55:46 • Mercenary was hit for 11 hit points.
19:55:57 • Mercenary was hit for 50 hit points.
19:56:00 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:56:08 • Mercenary was hit for 61 hit points.
19:56:11 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
19:56:19 • Mercenary was hit for 55 hit points.
19:56:21 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:56:27 • Mercenary was hit for 15 hit points.
19:56:29 • Mercenary was hit for 12 hit points.
19:56:32 • Mercenary was hit for 13 hit points.
19:56:40 • Mercenary was hit for 55 hit points.
19:56:42 • Mercenary was hit for 52 hit points.
19:56:48 • Mercenary was hit for 56 hit points.
19:56:51 • Mercenary was hit for 60 hit points.
19:56:57 • Mercenary was hit for 51 hit points.
19:57:00 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:06 • Mercenary was hit for 64 hit points.
19:57:09 • Mercenary was hit for 54 hit points.
19:57:17 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:19 • Mercenary was hit for 57 hit points.
19:57:25 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
19:57:28 • Mercenary was hit for 47 hit points.

Average of 49.1

Avenger

• Mercenary was hit for 32 hit points.
20:06:22 • Mercenary was hit for 69 hit points.
20:06:26 • Mercenary was hit for 43 hit points.
20:06:30 • Mercenary was hit for 35 hit points.
20:06:33 • Mercenary was hit for 65 hit points.
20:06:37 • Mercenary was hit for 72 hit points.
20:06:41 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:06:44 • Mercenary was hit for 62 hit points.
20:06:48 • Mercenary was hit for 30 hit points.
20:06:52 • Mercenary was hit for 68 hit points.
20:06:55 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:06:59 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:07:02 • Mercenary was hit for 63 hit points.
20:07:06 • Mercenary was hit for 60 hit points.
20:07:10 • Mercenary was hit for 73 hit points.
20:07:13 • Mercenary was hit for 31 hit points.
20:07:17 • Mercenary was hit for 44 hit points.
20:07:21 • Mercenary was hit for 58 hit points.
20:07:24 • Mercenary was hit for 28 hit points.
20:07:41 • Mercenary was hit for 64 hit points.
20:07:43 • Mercenary was hit for 67 hit points.
20:08:03 • Mercenary was hit for 65 hit points.
20:08:05 • Mercenary was hit for 63 hit points.
20:08:09 • Mercenary was hit for 70 hit points.
20:08:13 • Mercenary was hit for 66 hit points.
20:08:17 • Mercenary was hit for 70 hit points.
20:08:20 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.
20:08:24 • Mercenary was hit for 66 hit points.
20:08:33 • Mercenary was hit for 74 hit points.

Average of 59.8 (Jackhammer did 82% of the Avenger damage - adjust for AP and its 115%)

More what was expected actually, damn super crits

[Bulldog]

Actually, those were done with 100% crits, lets do it again.

Jackhammer

Average of 49.1

Avenger

Average of 59.8 (Jackhammer did 82% of the Avenger damage - adjust for AP and its 115%)

More what was expected actually, damn super crits

I' sorry, Solar, but what do this crit calculations have to do with our topic? Are we expected to make some crit builds with pancors or something? The reason that I've made this topic is that right now we have basically 2 pvp builds, a BG and a Sniper/L Sniper, melee is dead in pvp, but that's not the point right now, I'm looking forward to making shotguns (as a type of weapons) to be good enough for the majority of players to use, because right now we have only 2-3 weapons rich pvp'ers use, like the sniper/laser rifle, avengers and plasma nades and this is it, I don't get it, like all the people who are against improving pancors say that they are as good as a minigun without 2 BRD, well, that's lame, due to the lack of -DR or even -/DT (DT will not improve the damage much) they are absolutely useless VS a CA guy, in case he has toughness or even two, this high tier canon becomes even worse, if he uses a psixo, you won't be dealing any damage at all (I guess). The range is 3 times less than the range of other high tier weapons.
Hell, people, if you want to stick to only 2-3 builds over years then we could just remove all the weapons and perks except for just about 4 weapons and about 9 "pvp must have perks"
The thing that kills me most is that the DEVs don't pay much attention to this thread, although we're speaking mainly of the way of making the game more fun and less boring and simple than it is now. The funny fact is that when there were the times when sneak ruled the game and any decent pvp build had to have a nice sneak, the devs nerfed it so that the game doesn't become just hide and seek, why don't you understand that this battles  that consist of 4 weapons are not much better than a sneaking game?
And the most annoying part of this struggle is that you (DEVs) don’t even experiment with this shotgun parameters as you did with other features (such as sneak or crafting or many other things that we see in the change logs)

[Solar]

I' sorry, Solar, but what do this crit calculations have to do with our topic?

The last post was without crits. The char has 1 luck and none were crits (I pasted those directly from the log).

And the most annoying part of this struggle is that you (DEVs) don’t even experiment with this shotgun parameters as you did with other features (such as sneak or crafting or many other things that we see in the change logs)

We have already changed the shotguns. They used to fire bursts like everything else, now they don't. They used to be weak, now they aren't.