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[Bulldog]

Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...

About time actually, too imba right now.

[Midnight]

Actually main issue with Jh is the range, but in Fo2 range was clearly too much, allowing hard hiting burst from the moon.

Personnaly i think there should be 2 ranges on for burst at close, seriously have you ever tried to be accurate with a shootgun in burst? With a Riffle it's allready quite hard, but a shootgun ...
So keeping the actual range in burst mod and making a real range in single shot would give it a little more interrest, for balanced builds while they are not now.

[Bulldog]

Actually main issue with Jh is the range, but in Fo2 range was clearly too much, allowing hard hiting burst from the moon.

Personnaly i think there should be 2 ranges on for burst at close, seriously have you ever tried to be accurate with a shootgun in burst? With a Riffle it's allready quite hard, but a shootgun ...
So keeping the actual range in burst mod and making a real range in single shot would give it a little more interrest, for balanced builds while they are not now.

It might not be a good idea to compare weaponry of FON with the same weaponry in real life. You know, in real life a single bullet from most of the automatic weapons kills with ease. Miniguns are not actually used by bare handed soldiers due to insane recoil, they are used on helicopters and vehicles. I've never heard of any cases of people surviving a rocket shot directly at them via a rocket luncher of any kind and so on... And if you'd like to make shotguns more real life like, you'll have to make it deadlier than an assault rifle or a p-90 at point blank, if automatic/semi-automatic weapons penetrate with their bullets, shotguns simply rip a hole in ones flesh. 

[Midnight]

OMG, yeah you are right, so lets make Miniguns throwing fries and contamining those who are hit, flamethrowers that launch vorpal rabbits and FN Fals single shot that instakill at point blank.
Seriously, i mean in real life no matter the gun if you are hit you almost die badly. Is it a reason for not taking in account some of real life scale in things when balancing? If we don't care a bit about reality why use weapon from real world, lets go with things like in doom ...

Now this need a balance and if i'm not for being exactly at reality cause it would suck the game, maybe inspiring a bit to make a balance would be great and i don't see the point in your intervention here. What i said was so stupid someone needed to come tell me how life work or not? I ve done a simu for guns and it's not the first time i try to help about balancing some guns, like for AR, so you don't like the idea, good for you, the fact is that damages for most weapons are allready well rounded and messing with damages will directly break this, so there should be other way, and spreading seem to be not that easy to put or i think it would already be in game.

[Roachor]

Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...

where did you get that miniguns are getting nerfed? They don't have piercing.

[Solar]

where did you get that miniguns are getting nerfed? They don't have piercing.

AP ammo does.

Its actually a reasonably small nerf to some weapons vs Metal Armours and CA II/BA. It also makes toughness a bit more worthwhile vs those weapons too.

Avenger will still be the #1 DPS dealer, just not by as much.

[Bulldog]

My idea actually is that the more benefits (for example range, damage, price, ammo, /DT, -DR, *DM) one weapon has, the more minuses it should have, like for example, if a weapon has shitty range, it should be godly in close combat, a weapon with a range of 50 should be less powerful and so on, the good part about fallout is that each weapon has many variable characteristics, and this makes balancing more fun and opens a wide variety of choice. Avenger with it's range, ammo and lethality is absolute imba.

[Crazy]

My idea actually is that the more benefits (for example range, damage, price, ammo, /DT, -DR, *DM) one weapon has, the more minuses it should have, like for example, if a weapon has shitty range, it should be godly in close combat, a weapon with a range of 50 should be less powerful and so on, the good part about fallout is that each weapon has many variable characteristics, and this makes balancing more fun and opens a wide variety of choice. Avenger with it's range, ammo and lethality is absolute imba.

Lol... Avenger ammo imba? Man, it's the MOST expansive weapon to use (if we forget Gatling), expansive to craft too, range already nerfed, lethality about to be nerfed too. No avenger stand a chance against a sniper at max range, and no sniper stand a chance against an avenger at his range. I call it balanced. Just learn some tactics, and you will die less often by avenger burst.
Well anyway I can't say if it gonna be a good nerf or not, but anyway, I will have to change my build... ;p

[Roachor]

AP ammo does.

Its actually a reasonably small nerf to some weapons vs Metal Armours and CA II/BA. It also makes toughness a bit more worthwhile vs those weapons too.

Avenger will still be the #1 DPS dealer, just not by as much.

You should clarify as piercing is a weapon perk not an attribute of ap ammo.

Could you elaborate on dt/3? dt = ? damage taken? if you nerf it down to 1/3 from 2/3 ap rounds will do nothing, the minigun is only useful at like 1 hex against hard targets as it is.

[Solar]

AP ammo gives the weapon piercing. Piercing currently means that DT is divided by 5. Soon DT will be divided by 3 for this instead.

[Bulldog]

You should clarify as piercing is a weapon perk not an attribute of ap ammo.

Could you elaborate on dt/3? dt = ? damage taken? if you nerf it down to 1/3 from 2/3 ap rounds will do nothing, the minigun is only useful at like 1 hex against hard targets as it is.

as far as I know DT is damage threshold, and an AP ammo burst at blank point is effective even against addicts with insane DR, take 2-3 to kill one (at least it did before, when I tested it)

[Bulldog]

Lol... Avenger ammo imba? Man, it's the MOST expansive weapon to use (if we forget Gatling), expansive to craft too, range already nerfed, lethality about to be nerfed too. No avenger stand a chance against a sniper at max range, and no sniper stand a chance against an avenger at his range. I call it balanced. Just learn some tactics, and you will die less often by avenger burst.
Well anyway I can't say if it gonna be a good nerf or not, but anyway, I will have to change my build... ;p

I know it's expensive but it's a must for a good BG, if you made the price 10 times higher and craft 20 times, people would still use it... " No avenger stands a chance against a sniper at max range" you say? Before telling me to learn some tactics, get some brains. Not only snipers are not 1 shot killers all day long, but also 15 hex is not that much if you know what I mean, but actually I don't want to waste any time trying to explain you anything. You just really pissed me off, and yeah, I've tried more than 7 BG avenger builds during 3rd beta test.

[Roachor]

I know it's expensive but it's a must for a good BG, if you made the price 10 times higher and craft 20 times, people would still use it... " No avenger stands a chance against a sniper at max range" you say? Before telling me to learn some tactics, get some brains. Not only snipers are not 1 shot killers all day long, but also 15 hex is not that much if you know what I mean, but actually I don't want to waste any time trying to explain you anything. You just really pissed me off, and yeah, I've tried more than 7 BG avenger builds during 3rd beta test.

Well you only need one arm cripple to render a bg char useless as they have no one handed weapons, if they are in rt maybe 2 arm cripples but in tb they are screwed.

[Bulldog]

Well you only need one arm cripple to render a bg char useless as they have no one handed weapons, if they are in rt maybe 2 arm cripples but in tb they are screwed.

From my personal experience, people seem seldom to aim for the arms, although I remember one funny bluesuit that took revenge over me, he used all the mauser ammo he got from one of the reno quests to completely cripple me, he crippled me totally and didn't let me to escape the map border untill he ran out of ammo. This took place in the times when the cripple chance was not nerfed as it is now.

[Solar]

From my personal experience, people seem seldom to aim for the arms, although I remember one funny bluesuit that took revenge over me, he used all the mauser ammo he got from one of the reno quests to completely cripple me, he crippled me totally and didn't let me to escape the map border untill he ran out of ammo. This took place in the times when the cripple chance was not nerfed as it is now.

Cripple chance (for arms) is currently the highest its ever been.