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[Surf]

Against guys with armors its a worthless piece of pipe that deals no damage.

I just created a CA merc, shot him with a Jackhammer for 164, 139, 109, 153, 162, 270, 110, 117, 223 and 151. Average of 159.8.

Then with an Avenger 173, 239, 55, 127, 68, 131, 123, 131, 84, 180. Average of 131.1.

Highly unscientific and I'd actually expect the Avenger to do ~9% extra damage over time, but Jackhammers are not weak.

 

[Quentin Lang]

Both Solars teaming up. That Jackhammer damage looks good, but ive never dealt atleast half of that with Pancor. Also, that Solar's avenger damage for an avenger is total utter crap. You can squeeze hits over 300 from that thing. Finally, note that avenger has 2.5 times larger range.
P.S.
Im gonna do similiar experiment right now. Gonna take logs and screens.

[Sephis]

I'd rather use a desert eagle then a pancor quite honestly..

[Michaelh139]

I'd rather use a desert eagle then a pancor quite honestly..

BAHAHAA!....  That cracked me up man. 

Wait your serious?  Meh I'm sure you got your reasons, other than it has no Armor piericing chance, is useless against anything that shoots more than 20 hexes and action point amount used for such shitty shots isn't worth it  .

[Solar]

Nothing wrong with a deagle for certain builds, seems a lot of people don't realise how great Jackhammer damage is though. Oh well, their loss.

[Michaelh139]

Nothing wrong with a deagle for certain builds, seems a lot of people don't realise how great Jackhammer damage is though.

Against anything that doesn't have a shirt on.

Oh well, their loss.

Are you kidding?  They be saving 5k everytime they don't buy one.

[Solar]

Against anything that doesn't have a shirt on.Are you kidding?  They be saving 5k everytime they don't buy one.

1. Against anything.

2. 5k for a weapon that does the same damage as a 10k one, so long as you can apply some tactics to use it.

[vedaras]

Ok i decided to make 2 builds virtual fight. 2 identical builds fight meets near corner they have same reflexes shoot at same time etc. Both have 2x BROF, 2x Toughness and ba. First player is with jackhammer, second player is with avenger minigun.

So both players have 12/50% resistance for purposes of not to get lucky lets say they have 1 luck and wont get to fire a lucky burst.

They both have 10 ap, what means they both will fire 2 bursts. (even if we would count more ap, now jackhammer would need to reload so 10 makes sense here). So as they both fire 2 bursts, we will count only 1 in here to simplify calculations.

Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is  23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.

Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/4) * 40 * 0.85 = 158.(66) damage per burst.

Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 40 * 0. 15 = 66 damage per burst.

So i dont know about your tests or anything, but from pure fonline maths we can see that "one of the best damage dealing weapons" actually sucks harder then hard.

[Michaelh139]

1. Against anything.

2. 5k for a weapon that does the same damage as a 10k one, so long as you can apply some tactics to use it.

*Drugs self to where 50% bodily fluid is a mix of jet, Psycho, and all the other drugs you can imagine*

How about now?

...no, not quite.

[Surf]

Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.

[vedaras]

Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.

so we are talking about guns usefulness in battle not in imaginary playground where 2 players will fight with awareness and master salesman... These are numbers from players in battle, these are numbers showing the real truth.

P.s look at topic. Shotguns in pvp are useless, so yeah i made pvp calculations.

[Solar]

Vedaras, you used Perks for it. Solar didn't use any Perks.
Your BRoF obviously raises the damage of your avenger, because it shoots more bullets per burst.

As has been stated several times. It'd also be a good idea to ignore drugs too. I can only say so many times that we shall consider only the weapon itself since the other things are different topics for balance (as in the are nowhere near balanced).

*Drugs self to where 50% bodily fluid is a mix of jet, Psycho, and all the other drugs you can imagine*

How about now?

...no, not quite.

Not too bad when its an Armour By Pass. The nice healthy 3/1 damage modifier can do a nice job in this situation.

[Surf]

so we are talking about guns usefulness in battle not in imaginary playground where 2 players will fight with awareness and master salesman... These are numbers from players in battle, these are numbers showing the real truth.

Solar already said the weapons damage (Jackhammer) is fine. It's that there are specific perks available for Snipers and Biggunners, that's why they are so common. That's why it's always better testing the base damage without any combat perks, to develop some new ones suiting for shotguns.

[vedaras]

Solar already said the weapons damage (Jackhammer) is fine. It's that there are specific perks available for Snipers and Biggunners, that's why they are so common. That's why it's always better testing the base damage without any combat perks, to develop some new ones suiting for shotguns.

dont need those bla bla bla... Solar said (too lazy to quote, if you need you can find) that there were many situations in king of the hill pvp tests where jackhammer could be even more useful then miniguns. And here i showed its usefulness by calculations, and i proved that topic statement (its what we are discussing about anyway) is damn correct.

P.s from calculations we also see that as you said guns needs to be balanced. So in first place why the fuck jackhammers range was nerfed by such ammount? It makes underpowered item even more underpowered thats not balance :> (Dont get me wrong, im not blaming devs, neither i am whining, from the very beginning of this topic im just trying to say that jackhammer needs one kind or another boost or lower its crafting requirements and of course price what is also a solution).

[Solar]

Well, much as I hate having to go through other peoples stuff and without it being on a spreadsheet, but if you insist:

Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is  23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.

Avenger with AP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/4) * 40 * 0.85 = 158.(66) damage per burst.

Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 40 * 0. 15 = 66 damage per burst.

Jackhammer attacks result 5 bullets per burst all doing 18-29 damage what is  23.5+2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage perks. Shotgun shells have no impact on it, and bullets meet resistance and we have (23.5 - 12 +2) * 5 * 0.5 = 33.75 damage per burst.

Avenger with AP ammo.  40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/5) * 13 * 0.85 = 62.62 damage per burst.

After piercing trait goes to DT/3 instead of DT/5 (This is why I was using CA instead of BA, because this makes no difference to it – changing perks!)
Avenger with AP ammo.  40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. AP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5 +2) * 2/3 - 12/3) * 13 * 0.85 = 40.52 damage per burst. (Jackhammer does 83% of this damage, even though Avengers have their perfect perks and the Jackhammer doesn’t yet - a normal Minigunwould do 77% of this)

Then for completeness JHP is actually:
Avenger with JHP ammo. 40 bullets per burst all doing 8-11 damage what is 9.5 +2 average damage from 2x bonus ranged damage. JHP ammo and resistance impact on damage results in:
((9.5+2) * 2 - 12) * 13 * 0. 15 = 21.45 damage per burst. (Jackhammer does 157.3% of this)