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[Bulldog]

I think DT/3 would make the Jackhammer the best DPS burst weapon. Would make them the ideal urban weapon.

Not sure about that' the benefit seems to be quite low due to only 5 bullets per burst.

[Attero]

nope

with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?

{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?

thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...

also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit

[RavenousRat]

also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit

I vote for aimed bursts from shotguns.

[Solar]

nope

with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?

{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?

thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...

10+4?

*0.75 = *0.67? I've lost track on what's in the game and what's only on my spreadsheet at this point (I could only save the changed version when my computer had to be wiped )

DT/3 -> DT/5 makes only a little difference, indeed. But it makes just enough.

[Bulldog]

nope

with DT/3 dam would drop by 1 in msot cases (2 in few) compared to ealier thas abotu 10-20% reduction - average to 15% ?

{[(10+4)*3/4]-3}*0.9 = 6.75 dam per bulelt with 12 bullet hit makes 81 ... prolly on average 73?

thats still superior to pancor not to mention point blank...

also i dont belive shotguns should be domiannt at close range , if you rly want to make them like that the add granted knockdown/back on critical hit

Sure this calculation is concerning the Avenger Minigun? Avenger hits with 15 bullets I think, also we're not taking into consideration the range, it's 35 VS 16(as far as I remember) And also the fact that Avenger at close range deals almost tripple damage compared to the damage at some range.

[Kastion]

still, i think that knockdown, or progressive knockdown (from shorter range knockback, from longer range knockdown) would make this weapon both realistic and interesting. Now everyone who are small gunners are snipers, where are jackhammer masters with 1 perception ?

If shotguns got an increased % chance to knockdown based on range (closer to target = higher % knockdown) as well as knockback (closer to target = higher % chance & higher distance knockback) I think we would be seeing a lot more shotguns in circulation, and we'd also most likely start seeing SG players equipping both a long range gun and a shotgun...  I'd love to see some gradual changes like this to shotguns. Might see some more SG tactics other than "run away and shoot everything in the eyes" used too... Unless it was incrementally added/raised and play-tested though this might increase the difficulty gap for melee players even more..

I would certainly be more inclined to use shotguns if this were the case, I might even favor them in some situations and purposely put myself in close range combat... 

[Attero]

avenger dam is 8-11 ...(8+11)/2 = 9.5 ... you can use that value but game rounds things so i used 10...

and 4 is due to 2x BRD you know...

as for balance i agree that BRD at this stage is too good the reason is AP idd

my memory is blurry but htere was no penetrate perk in fallout so when higher armor tiers kick in DT cuts dam of the base miniguns greatly.

and on other weapons the benefit is not so large

2x BRD is almost 50% dam increase for minigun!! we could use some change on this per idd ..maybe only one rank or +10%/+20% dam isntead (but that would buff all otehr weapons too  (like rocketz))

[Solar]

10+4?

*0.75 = *0.67? I've lost track on what's in the game and what's only on my spreadsheet at this point (I could only save the changed version when my computer had to be wiped )

DT/3 -> DT/5 makes only a little difference, indeed. But it makes just enough.

It is indeed a damage modifier of 2/3 (0.67).

[Solar]

avenger dam is 8-11 ...(8+11)/2 = 9.5 ... you can use that value but game rounds things so i used 10...

and 4 is due to 2x BRD you know...

as for balance i agree that BRD at this stage is too good the reason is AP idd

my memory is blurry but htere was no penetrate perk in fallout so when higher armor tiers kick in DT cuts dam of the base miniguns greatly.

and on other weapons the benefit is not so large

2x BRD is almost 50% dam increase for minigun!! we could use some change on this per idd ..maybe only one rank or +10%/+20% dam isntead (but that would buff all otehr weapons too  (like rocketz))

Game may round, but that is an average of whole numbers used by the game, so we can retain the decimal. We're ignoring perks, not only because they're not balanced, but also because we then don't have to bother factoring toughness in either 

[Attero]

It is indeed a damage modifier of 2/3 (0.67).

hurm so wiki needs update atm not in game so cant check the 5mm ap

that would then change the math too....

as for toughness i assume 1 toughness = 9DT (slightly damaged BA) and 45% reduction - quite well averaged value. As for BRD we can safely assume 2x coz every sinle miniguner has it .ok lets keep decimal values

((9.5+4)*2/3-3)*0.9= 5.4 dam per bullet makes a total of 67 average dam not too fency pancor is much closer...but still point blankzzzzz.......

for comparison atm it is (assuming hte bullet 2/3 dam adj) 6.3 so around 75 dam per round

here is worth of noting that LSW does 15 per bullet in similar situation as avenger (4 bullets max hit at range makes 60 dam)


again - you cant help people thinking here me thinks that best solution here if you wanna give love to panzor would be make it knockback at point blank range if within game power -

[Bulldog]

I thought a bit, so DT/3 would give a 5-round burst Pancor ... 10 damage, right? (Vs a CA without toughness)

[Solar]

Well, Pancor doesn't have piercing, so it would remain exactly as it is now:

Pancor - 18-29 (Average 23.5) 0 Damage mod => 23.5 Damage per bullet.
Pancor DRmod = 0% => (23.5 - 5)*0.6 = 11.1 Damage per bullet
Pancor hits with 5 shells, 5*11.1 = 55.5

hurm so wiki needs update atm not in game so cant check the 5mm ap

that would then change the math too....

as for toughness i assume 1 toughness = 9DT (slightly damaged BA) and 45% reduction - quite well averaged value. As for BRD we can safely assume 2x coz every sinle miniguner has it .ok lets keep decimal values

((9.5+4)*2/3-3)*0.9= 5.4 dam per bullet makes a total of 67 average dam not too fency pancor is much closer...but still point blankzzzzz.......

for comparison atm it is (assuming hte bullet 2/3 dam adj) 6.3 so around 75 dam per round

here is worth of noting that LSW does 15 per bullet in similar situation as avenger (4 bullets max hit at range makes 60 dam)


again - you cant help people thinking here me thinks that best solution here if you wanna give love to panzor would be make it knockback at point blank range if within game power -

Again we are comparing by including perks, its an unfair comparison and pointless as perks aren't balanced themselves. If anything that would suggest adding a perk to give shotguns a chance of knockback.

[Attero]

Again we are comparing by including perks, its an unfair comparison and pointless as perks aren't balanced themselves. If anything that would suggest adding a perk to give shotguns a chance of knockback.

mubles ... and again if perk is considered as menditory we need to take it into comparison ... its same like better criticals for snipers all critical effect balance need to be done assuming player has it... whatever you plan on nerfing BRD is another story.....

[Solar]

Balancing weapons by factoring in perks that need to change only creates more work rebalancing them.

[Bulldog]

I don't get it, if high tier shotguns are not going to be rabalanced in the neaest future, then when shall we get the perks rebalanced, and will this changes make this weapon class actually worth something in pvp? How much shall we have to wait for them? How many months, maybe years?

PS, oh well, back to the Avenger and sniper builds, other weapons have disadvantages and this ones don't... Why bother then, just leave the mausers and remove all the rest weapons from the game, who needs variety? Instead of feading us with some "possible future perk changes" it would be much better of you to actually do something, yeah-yeah we know it takes time, but as I see it, it's almost as essentual as solving the lag problem. Fucking tired of being surrounded with the same biulds and guns, give us a breath of fresh air.(I don't mean to insult anyone, but seriosly, people, come on, do something, at least try, you can always try for example to do something and see the results, if they are satisfying, then you've done the right thing, if not, well, try again.)