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Author Topic: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless  (Read 30464 times)

Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 12:12:36 am »

Have you ever thought of implementing a "Bleeding" player status?  It would be like "Poisoned" except you are bleeding and losing hit points rather than poisoned and losing hit points.  And then it goes away after a minute or something.  It could proc based on some weapon and ammo variables.  If it wasn't too hard to implement, this might be a good way to improve the shotgun-- you could give it a high bleed chance.  It would improve the weapon, but it wouldn't be a huge change.  And I think the idea of a "Bleeding" player status would make the game more realistic.
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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 12:43:34 am »

Have you ever thought of implementing a "Bleeding" player status?  It would be like "Poisoned" except you are bleeding and losing hit points rather than poisoned and losing hit points.  And then it goes away after a minute or something.  It could proc based on some weapon and ammo variables.  If it wasn't too hard to implement, this might be a good way to improve the shotgun-- you could give it a high bleed chance.  It would improve the weapon, but it wouldn't be a huge change.  And I think the idea of a "Bleeding" player status would make the game more realistic.

Sounds like an annoyance more than anything else. It's not gonna make more people want to use a shotgun.
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Retrogator

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 01:52:20 am »

Here are my two cents on shotguns.

The problem with the shotguns in Fonline is their role in combat overlaps with ‘other rifles’. As a result, small gunners who are choosing a weapon lump them in the same category and come to the same conclusion that they are sub-par when compared with other rifles of the same tier. The value of shotguns is essentially deflated because other rifles can do everything a shotgun can, except better. Consider the following issues:

(I) Seeing as the max range of most shotguns is short, approx. 12/14/16, this hardly requires any investment in Small Guns skill points to achieve 95% chance to hit. Thus the +20% bonus to hit from the accurate perk is only a minor advantage at best, beneficial only to low-leveled characters with low SG or to non-combative characters who still want to use a gun. Not nearly an enticing enough bonus for a dedicated small gunner to consider seriously, seeing how in most cases the +20% hit will be redundant. Compared with long ranged rifles, the +% to hit from the long perk becomes an essential bonus, especially in long-distance night encounters.

(II) Even though the high tier shotguns: combat shotgun/CAWS/Pancor do 15-25 dmg single shot, which is a fair bit of dmg, the short range makes it impractical compared to lets say a sniper rifle, which does even more dmg (14-34) at close range with single shot, yet also has the advantage to shoot much farther. If someone does decide to use a shotgun for single-shot, it would have to be an aimed-shot to yield comparable damage as a rifle. Nonetheless, this in itself is a pretty ridiculous concept when you think of the spray in a shotgun shot.  

(III) The burst function is also short ranged and far too limited in damage. With a 0%-DR ammo modifier, it will hardly put a scratch on armored targets. But of course, shotguns aren’t supposed to be used against things that are heavily armored because they don’t penetrate well, so changing the %-DR on the ammo would only serve to make them stronger then they practically should be. As it stands, even a basic rifle (like the assault rifle) can burst for better damage than a combat shotgun, let alone has much farther range.

(IV) The high tier shotguns are not cheap either. Compare it to high tier rifles and you’ll see they are similar in cost. If they do less damage and have shorter range, why should anyone pay the same amount of money, or resources, to get one? As it stands, shotguns are more of a vanity and role-playing weapon. That being said, the sawed-off shotgun is a perfect example of this. Put up against the regular shotgun, it sacrifices 5 range for only +2 max damage. But don’t get me wrong, it makes up for its bad combat capabilities by giving me a damn good feeling when I shoot and reload it. It might be the most shafted gun in the entire game, but it’s definitely the most satisfying gun to hold in my hands.

Solutions:
Increase their range? No
Make the ammo better? No
Make them cheaper? No
Change the role it plays as a combat weapon? Yes

Personally I think Fallout Tactics had it right. The shotguns in that game were not able to do aimed shots, only normal single shot and burst. To compensate, normal single shots had the added bonus of having a wide spread (similar to the AoE of bursting), whereas the burst option would be similar, but dish out more damage at the expense of more AP and ammo. This gave shotguns their own unique role – to instigate fights against clusters of enemies in close-medium range. Damage is only maximized when there were at least 2-3 enemies close together, and it would fall short of dealing good damage if it was just one target. When it came down to close-medium ranged crowd-control, their total DPS would excel. Rifles, on the other hand, would fulfill the role of single target ranged fighting and could not compare in damage to shotguns, even when bursting into groups at close range. Because rifles and shotguns did not overlap in combat function, both were valued weapons to have. Furthermore, the easy access of shotguns made it a cheap alternative to using grenades, rocket launchers, and miniguns in those who lacked the proficiency to use them, or couldn't afford them.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 01:56:08 am by Retrogator »
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Bulldog

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2010, 10:10:05 pm »

guys, the simple solution is to modify the shell damage multiplyer, no need adding any perks(due to some abuse problems it would cause) and due to the fact that generally it won't solve the problem as I see it, the problem is that they just don't dish out the damage such a low ranged weapon should, right now high tier shotgun weapons dish out less damage than a minigun(at any range), a sniper rifle or a lazer one, they require a tiny range, dealing sh*ty damage to armored units, someone said that they are not quite penetrating in real life, well, thats true, but their firepower is insane, even if it hits a target wearing a bullet-proof vest it causes sevire pain and a knockdown
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Marko69

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 10:36:59 am »

Good morning Columbo.. Of course that all small guns are useless, that's why they are so cheap to craft. You need avenger minigun and light support weapon to kill people fast. Image talks million words  ;D



or if you want knockback:

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Izual

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 10:39:32 am »

Did anyone shoot you at short range with a shotgun ? I can tell you there's a damn knockback effect.

P.S. Not that anyone shot me with a shotgun at short range, but... =p
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 10:56:33 am by Izual »
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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 10:53:26 am »

Maybe implementing some of the various special shells that is available in FoT? doesnt need to much of change in weapons, just cooler ammo. (electrical.. omg :p)
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gordulan

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 10:55:39 am »

explosive shells would be just awesome, imagine a burst of 5 of em, eh?
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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 12:04:31 pm »

I think pancor jackammer, combat shotgun, H&K Caws must be better. Why ? Because it's shotgun ! A minigun shooting 5mm ammo it's very little ammo, 12 Ga are very big and when you shot people with a shotgun you make a big hole in his body ! Bigguns like miniguns are for support the others people who are fighting with you. When i see a burst of minigun at 300 hit damages and a pancor jackammer at 100-120 hit damages with critical, i think it's not normal and or minigun and light support must be less powerful or shotguns ( Pancor, combat shot, HK caws ) must be more powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

THIS IS A SHOTGUN !

( sorry for my english )
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Solar

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 01:21:05 pm »

Hrm, Jackhammers average pretty nice DPS with their new burst mechanics. How many people have actually tried these bursting shotguns out for extended periods since this was done?
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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 02:40:27 pm »

But still, why is the perk "accurate". Shotguns are anything BUT accurate, unless its a hunting shotgun.

Perk should be knockback, and there should be another type of shotgun shell that lowers -AC more called slugs which is a more accurate type of ammo used. However I wouldn't make the range of the slugs any more than 20 or it's too unfair.
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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 02:45:55 pm »

But still, why is the perk "accurate". Shotguns are anything BUT accurate, unless its a hunting shotgun.
This means it has like fraction-shot, but what is odd thing is: you don't deal more damage at point-blank shot, and deal normal damage at far distance, when shotgun must be killmachine at pointblank and do AoE low damage at long distance.
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Shangalar

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 05:15:13 pm »

I played high level shotgunner and afaik, it's impossible to fight against any biggunner at close range, and of course impossible to fight against snipers at long range. Shotguns at close ranges are known for being the most mortal weapons. It just needs some improvements. There are lots of ways to do it. Since these weapons have the same price than other small guns, they should have the same power.

vedaras

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Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 05:34:06 pm »

I played high level shotgunner and afaik, it's impossible to fight against any biggunner at close range, and of course impossible to fight against snipers at long range. Shotguns at close ranges are known for being the most mortal weapons. It just needs some improvements. There are lots of ways to do it. Since these weapons have the same price than other small guns, they should have the same power.

i suggested perk that increases knockdown significantly, like 40% to knockdown would be ok. Since they are really expensive items, they should be really good.
Re: (report) shotguns in pvp-useless
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2010, 05:46:51 pm »

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