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[avv]

I'd like to point out how bad shotgun and sawed off shotguns are: if you want to burst, for 9 aps (reload included) you deal about 30 dmg.

Make shotguns spread its shots in cone formation. Up the damage for sawed off shotguns, normal shotguns and raise their range. This way they would deal most damage at close range, and pointless damage over longer distance, unless you fired in a group of enemies.

Shotguns can't really be fixed fast to represent shotguns in rational way, this is because we lack certain weapon perks and features that existed in fallout tactics for example.

[Solar]

With everything we have to do, you can imagine just how far off inventing a new way for burst to work for one type of gun is.

please read this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8874.msg76131#msg76131


PS F*cking hilarious idea, GJ devs, u've just killed this weapon

Avenger before 7 AP -> 5AP, now 7AP -> 6 AP .... now does 83.33% of its old DPS

Jacklhammer before 6 AP -> 4AP, now 6 AP -> 5 AP
18-29 is 23.5 average damage = 5.875 per AP (with 2 BRD its 6.875)
20-31 is 25.5 average damage = 5.1 per AP (with 2 BRD its 5.9)
Does 86.8% of its old damage (with 2 BRD its 85.8%).

So in reality it was a 4.2% boost in real terms (with 2 BRD its 3% boost), as the Avenger was the relative point that all other weapons changed to. Not to mention it can now fire 3 times before having to reload, making it equal to most other burst type weapons.

If both of those boosts have ruined this weapon (which was perfectly serviceable before anyway) then ... well, unlucky.

[Bulldog]

 Does anyone want to share his or her ideas on current situation concerning fast shot and shotguns?

[zato1]

burst SG build was quite powerful, still is even considering the range situation... of course t1 shotguns will always suck for pvp. the combat shotgun is good enough to pvp with and you're just crazy if you think pancor burst dmg isnt high enough. the AP cost is justified because it will force you to rethink your build if you cannot burst twice in one turn, forcing you to either play in RT if you wish to do the same build, or work a different shotgun build out.

[Bulldog]

burst SG build was quite powerful, still is even considering the range situation... of course t1 shotguns will always suck for pvp. the combat shotgun is good enough to pvp with and you're just crazy if you think pancor burst dmg isnt high enough. the AP cost is justified because it will force you to rethink your build if you cannot burst twice in one turn, forcing you to either play in RT if you wish to do the same build, or work a different shotgun build out.

Ever heard of shotguns crappy range and shitty ammo? Fast shot was one of the rare useful traits for a shot-gunner .

[Solar]

Or to look at it another way, Shotguns are useful without many other traits.

[zato1]

uh what the hell are you on about? pre-wipe a pancor burst build in just ma mk2 could easily take down a 250 hp character. the range isnt even that bad. can he stand toe-to-toe with a minigun character and win? of course not, but thats not what SG burst is about.

now the pancor is buffed, i've personally used it myself, its very potent and shotgun shells are not awesome but not terrible either.

[Bulldog]

Well then , Solar and zato1, I doubt that this new "awesome" feature will somehow make pancors useful and popular. I haven't met a shot-gunner after the wipe. (only 2 before the wipe btw) Is this your idea of variety of builds in the wastes?

[Solar]

Well, depends if we're balancing by anecdote or not.

[zato1]

i don't understand the problem. if you are 2h sg burster you are not LIMITED to the shotgun if you feel it is not a good weapon. you have the option of the assault rifle, which is kickass, and the FN FAL which is truly exceptional for bursting if you manage to find enough ammo for it. i mean really? the shotgun is a close range weapon with a powerful burst. the limitation of the weapon is obvious... range.

if you're a sg burster and you bring a shotgun to somewhere like... reno, yeah unless you can get up in someones face on the grids you are gonna get shot down. this is why you don't limit yourself to one weapon because you think its "cool"... the limitation of the shotgun is a natural limiter in its power... think to real life, shotguns are the most powerful anti-infantry weapons made besides large caliber weapons. we are consistently seeking to develop new futuristic ways to overcome the natural deficiency of shotguns.

the only thing i agree with that has been stated earlier, is that the shotgun should knock BACK on a critical hit only, burst or not, like a rocket launcher or grenade. this would make shotguns very viable as a "use all the time" weapon instead of how it is now... "use it if you'll be in close quarters only" and will hopefully give some viability to "melee" gun users.

[Bulldog]

I guess a 5 AP high tier shotgun burst would have solved the problem once and for all. Due to some strange reason, although every person on this forum knows the popularity of these weapons and probably knows the reason for this, everyone pretends that it's even better to nerf an already unpopular, nerfed in almost all the possible ways there are weapon class. Such suggestions as "knock down on crit blah-blah" are crap, maybe you would suggest some godly crit-knock down build using pancors?

PS
This thread has been read over 4k times with over 17 pages of arguments and ideas, thanks for the support everyone, and I do hope that our efforts will make the DEVs pay attention to our ideas and thoughts.

[Solar]

As stated, it wasn't nerfed, it was infact slightly buffed.

[Bulldog]

If we compare it to the original fallout, it's nerfed in terms of range, but that's not the point of my post, I agree that the range was too big for a shotgun.

[Surf]

What's then your point? Especially the Pancor Jackhammer is a very deadly weapon.

[avv]

I've been shooting some geckos, ghouls, brahmins, rats and raiders recently with CAWS. When shooting single unaimed shots, the damage isn't actually any better than for example 10mm pistol or magnum. I end up doing about 12-21 damage per shot, while magnum and 10mm do about 10-19. It's hardly any better damage especially when you notify that caws takes 5 aps to fire. Also caws costs 4k and those pistols less than tenth of it. Surely caws can burst, but unaimed single should be the basic unit of damage output and who wants to burst brahmins?