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[Solar]

Well, if Solar would be nice enough to solve this situation just by testing the damn Pankor and Avendger in game, using AP ammo VS a CA, especially nice it would be against a 2 Toughness person, that would be great. Solar, i'm sure your opinion would change dramatically.

Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:

Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8

[Attero]

what about using ap ammo 

[Solar]

That was with AP ammo.

[vedaras]

Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:

Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8

and now match their prices. Jackhammer is much more expensive, minigun has much bigger shooting range. So what about giving some edge to jackhammer?

[Solar]

Pancor Cost=$5075 and $50 a shot.
Avenger Minigun Cost=$10085 and $354 a shot.

[vedaras]

screw these new prices

[Solar]

[whisper] Jackhammers were always cheaper [/whisper]

Like I said, cheaper, damage in between Miniguns and Avengers and lower range.

From having such low range you can also plan to use 1. Lower SG skill than the BG skill required or 2. Keep the high SG but use Psycho! 

[vedaras]

[whisper] Jackhammers were always cheaper [/whisper]

Like I said, cheaper, damage in between Miniguns and Avengers and lower range.

From having such low range you can also plan to use 1. Lower SG skill than the BG skill required or 2. Keep the high SG but use Psycho! 

still, i think that knockdown, or progressive knockdown (from shorter range knockback, from longer range knockdown) would make this weapon both realistic and interesting. Now everyone who are small gunners are snipers, where are jackhammer masters with 1 perception ?

[Badger]

Regardless, nobody seems to be using them. So why is that? Is it the small guns 3 requirement, or what?

[Attero]

That was with AP ammo.

then you didnt use Bonus ranged dam perk - with AP ammo 2x that perk gives about 35 dam for avenger -range shot

and another thing is that pancor doesnt do 3x damage at point blank range...

and also the tougher target is BA+2 toughness (+possibly spycho) damage done by pacor will drop alot more then that of avenger

yet i dont say its worthless ...just that shotguns arnt a fucking pointblank canon

[Bulldog]

Just tried it in game, 10 Shots at CA:

Avenger Minigun Average 56.6
Pancor Jackhammer Average 55.8

This can't be, you must have done something wrong, have you taken the "bonus R dmg" perks? And Pancor's average can't be that high either.And besides, 10 shots are not good enough for a statistic research. If you mind finding me in game in CA armor I would gladly help to participate (I use pancor)

[Solar]

This can't be, you must have done something wrong, have you taken the "bonus R dmg" perks? And Pancor's average can't be that high either.And besides, 10 shots are not good enough for a statistic research. If you mind finding me in game in CA armor I would gladly help to participate (I use pancor)

Good, I'm glad we agree. Please refer back to the average calculated earlier for a true comparison. Should've been something like 55.5 vs 66.3 for CA really, if my rough calculation can be trusted .

then you didnt use Bonus ranged dam perk - with AP ammo 2x that perk gives about 35 dam for avenger -range shot

and another thing is that pancor doesnt do 3x damage at point blank range...

and also the tougher target is BA+2 toughness (+possibly spycho) damage done by pacor will drop alot more then that of avenger

yet i dont say its worthless ...just that shotguns arnt a fucking pointblank canon

I don't remember perks being specified anywhere. Perks are about as far from balanced as I can imagine, so lets not use those as any serious balance.

The most obvious thing is Piercing reducing DT so much - for miniguns firing AP ammo your main defense is your DT, but currently it just gets wiped out. I wanted to reduce the effect from DT/5 to DT/3 when we wiped, but ran out of time to pester for it sufficiently (and all the other balance changes for guns too) - this would make Toughness and the higher armours slightly more effective vs Miniguns, as they should be really.

[Bulldog]

Solar, thats great, but will it make high tier shotguns more usable? The dominating builds are BG (Minigun, Rocket(support most probablly) snipers (Lazer/SG sniper) and that's it, oh yea, almost forgot, burst P90 and grenade builds (less common due to their disadvantages and mainly their cost) meely is dead, and so are shotguns. If shotguns were good enough, I'm sure that people would use them much more than now (right now I encounter mostly BG builds and some snipers)

I seriosly think that boosting some unpopular weapons would add variety to the game, because a build is always based on gear, more usable gear-more builds-more variety.

[Solar]

I think DT/3 would make the Jackhammer the best DPS burst weapon. Would make them the ideal urban weapon.

[RavenousRat]

I seriosly think that boosting some unpopular weapons would add variety to the game, because a build is always based on gear, more usable gear-more builds-more variety.

Adding "Penetrate" perk to all shotguns and magnum revolver. Or make 12ga -X % DR, or http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3416.0 , to make 12ga more useful.