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[Bulldog]

We have already changed the shotguns. They used to fire bursts like everything else, now they don't. They used to be weak, now they aren't.

Hm, I wonder, why don't people use them if they are not weak now? Maybe you have any ideas, Solar?   What is the percentage of players who use Pankors today? How efficient in pvp are they?

Well, you've made a change in the burst feature, did it make shotguns popular? Do Pankors stand a chance against other high tier weapons?

The part I like about this discussion is that it has more than 2400 views and plenty replies, this means that I'm not the only one conserned about shotguns(as a class of weapons)

[Solar]

Players use some weapons that are rubbish and eschew ones that are good. Players can do whatever they like, but the Jackhammer is balanced for its niche.

[RavenousRat]

Hm, I wonder, why don't people use them if they are not weak now? Maybe you have any ideas, Solar?   What is the percentage of players who use Pankors today? How efficient in pvp are they?

Well, you've made a change in the burst feature, did it make shotguns popular? Do Pankors stand a chance against other high tier weapons?

My HtHer troll often dies by Pancor Jackhammer at orange circles near NCR, also BGers use it if they don't want to waste/don't have BG weapon.
It's not a main weapon, but good as side use weapon.

[Bulldog]

My HtHer troll often dies by Pancor Jackhammer at orange circles near NCR, also BGers use it if they don't want to waste/don't have BG weapon.
It's not a main weapon, but good as side use weapon.

Ravenous, please read the name of the thread "shotguns in pvp-useless"

Returning to my point, Solar, you've showed us all those calculations, all the benefits of a pancor, you've compared it with a minigun, so you supose that it stands a chance VS a CA minigunner? (without criticals blah-blah) Or shall the Sniper/Minigun routine continue forever?

[Solar]

Given that it does significantly more damage than a normal Minigun, of course it does.

[Tespis]

I can't imagine jackhammer winning against an avenger. Not because of damage , but becuse of 2 factors- range and the number of burst's before reloading. In real time combat animation time is rather important, so during reloading operation third burst from an avenger will come, most likely the last one for jakckhammer user, int the same amount of time avenger mean 3 burst while jackhammer only 2 and reload. One can say that 3 bursts from avenger needs more ap, but most of pvp builds runs on drugs, so haveing  16 ap is common for a junkie, and the only thing that matters before running out of ap is animation time. Lets imagine 2 drugged ca equipped that start shooting at the same time, the only difference betwen them is their weapon, so who will win? Thats pretty obvious. Its useless against a sniper too, beacuse he will run out of range and this will become running competition, unless sniper will fight back(high posibility to knockdown or knockout). How to use jackhammer then? You cant fight with it against a bg beacuse of the reloading frequency wchich is equal to the supreme firepower of avenger( more bursts at the same time).

[Solar]

It was said a while back to ignore drugs and perks for this purpose.

As for how to use a Jackhammer, use tactics. Nothing says you have to stand in one spot and shoot. They are short ranged, so suit combat where there is lots of LOS blockers and allow a couple of bursts before you have to reload, so burst and run for cover.

[Bulldog]

It was said a while back to ignore drugs and perks for this purpose.

As for how to use a Jackhammer, use tactics. Nothing says you have to stand in one spot and shoot. They are short ranged, so suit combat where there is lots of LOS blockers and allow a couple of bursts before you have to reload, so burst and run for cover.

Hm... Burst and run for cover... Tactics.... I remember jumping at a minigunner from a corner, I made 2 bursts with a pancor, he ran at me, when he understood that i'll never let him burst me at blank point, he made 2 bursts, I was reloading, a 3rd burst killed me, I had an awareness and counted that it takes 4 bursts to knock him down with -hp, I had all the possible advantages, I shot first,was at a range lower than 16 hexes, was wearing a CA 0 % Det and so on, and this was my average duel VS a minigunner. I had a very high hp build, 2 toughneses, 21lvl ofc. I don't consider myself to be a nub, just in case. I'm an experienced player and I can tell you for sure that a pancor vs a BG guy stands practically no chance at all. Ofc Solar may tell us about the godly damage of the pancor and the fact that it's more powerfull than a minigun but I actually played a pancor dude and a minigunner, and I can compare.

[Tespis]

Ignroing drugs and perks is meaningles beacuse combat with or without them is almost like two different mechanics.
Not couple but 2 bursts on a very limited range. Against a ca it gives a total of 100 hp damage. After this incredibly powerfull atack, getting cover waiting for ap to regenerate, reloading, healed bigguner  attacks my position and  turns me into a meatball. The only way for me to survive this kind of situation is to run to a place where he won't find me, most likely it will be wm.

[Solar]

Ofc Solar may tell us about the godly damage of the pancor and the fact that it's more powerfull than a minigun but I actually played a pancor dude and a minigunner, and I can compare.

Me too, Pancor is more fun. Though when I did it wasn't so good. Still, 1 anecdote doth not balance make.

Ignroing drugs and perks is meaningles beacuse combat with or without them is almost like two different mechanics.

Talking about current perks and drugs when talking about final balance is meaningless because they are bound to change.

[Bulldog]

Me too, Pancor is more fun. Though when I did it wasn't so good. Still, 1 anecdote doth not balance make.

Talking about current perks and drugs when talking about final balance is meaningless because they are bound to change.

Well then, how much time do you need to solve such a vital problem as a problem of only about 4 weapons being dominating in pvp? You've fixed many weapons, although I'm not aware of any changes that would have solved the problem of variety of balanced weapons and as a result-effective pvp builds.

[Solar]

From what I saw on the TC cbt:

1. Avenger (and Minigun)
2. LSW
3. Laser Rifle (and Extended)
4. Sniper Rifle
5. Plasma Rifle
6. Plasma Grenades

I've seen more Assault Rifles beginning to be used in TC/Random PK too. Seen p90c's in there.

I assume at some point they will realise Jackhammers are good and begin to use these, where I asked them why they didn't use them they said psycho made them weak, which made no sense

Of course at some point Piercing will go to DT/3 and thereby nerf some weapons vs some armours a little too.

An continued increase for AR, p90c and Jackhammers would make it nearly so at least the top gun in each sub class was used, probably outside of pistols.

[Bulldog]

From what I saw on the TC cbt:

1. Avenger (and Minigun)
2. LSW
3. Laser Rifle (and Extended)
4. Sniper Rifle
5. Plasma Rifle
6. Plasma Grenades

I've seen more Assault Rifles beginning to be used in TC/Random PK too. Seen p90c's in there.

I assume at some point they will realise Jackhammers are good and begin to use these, where I asked them why they didn't use them they said psycho made them weak, which made no sense

Of course at some point Piercing will go to DT/3 and thereby nerf some weapons vs some armours a little too.

An continued increase for AR, p90c and Jackhammers would make it nearly so at least the top gun in each sub class was used, probably outside of pistols.

This is just what I wanted to hear, if you'd specify the date or at least a time period when this changes occur that would be very nice of you.

[Solar]

Hm, I forgot the RL from that list, I notice. Not too bad a list really, I think perk/drug rework could encourage the use of some other weapons too.

DT/3 should arrive before too long. I wanted to convince Atom of it before the wipe, but with everything that needed doing for the crafting I forgot to. Finally remembered to do it recently.

[Crazy]

Hm, I forgot the RL from that list, I notice. Not too bad a list really, I think perk/drug rework could encourage the use of some other weapons too.

DT/3 should arrive before too long. I wanted to convince Atom of it before the wipe, but with everything that needed doing for the crafting I forgot to. Finally remembered to do it recently.

Well, minigun gonna have again a huge nerf...