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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: JovankaB on February 15, 2012, 09:29:13 am
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Instead of relog timeout which can be easily avoided you always get 2 minute "sleepy" status after login.
Sleepy characters can't extract materials from facilities (no mining ore, etc, you get "you are too sleepy to work now").
They also get penalty to all skills equal to sleepy_seconds_left * -1%.
So right after relog you have -300% to all skills and the penalty gradually goes down.
You don't get it, if you are logged off with the same character shorter than 30 seconds (anti-crash/restart).
Or maybe simply if you didn't switch characters on the same client. Not sure if it would be enough.
Let's forget about initial suggestion.
I think it would be perfect if returning from respawn, healing, restocking would be more less
the same as relogging on another charater. The question is how can it be done, and
preferably in a way that doesn't hurt PvE too much. It could be SPECIAL penalty in following
way: You get -10 SPECIAL penalty points.
First, PE is penalized down to 1.
If there are still some penalty points, the remain points are used to penalize ST
If there are still some penalty points, the remain points are used to penalize LK
And so on, I'm not sure about the order, but the point is it should be SPECIALs
that matter the most in PvP and PvE the least. I think PE should be first.
Penalty lasts 120 seconds after you login.
If you are turn based PvE 120 seconds of such penalty wouldn't be a big deal.
I mean, seriously, you can use the time to increase range from enemies
or whatever even if you get immediately encounter. RT PvE first 120 seconds
would be a bit worse but you could still one hex enemies. We are talking about
2 minutes (or similar time) after login here while your character is "sleepy".
Mercenerias should get the same penalty.
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Best keep more windows open then, with proxies ofcourse.
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Best keep more windows open then, with proxies ofcourse.
Yes.
If someone has to cheat during PvP, let's at least make the cheater have to run 6 proxy clients at the same time.
If it was all that convenient you would see it everywhere.
It's a different thing to have to be logged in for a few minutes to be effective.
Such people would be easier to catch and ban than in previous system.
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The playerbase isn't your enemy. They want to have fun but if something is too boring or feels tedious, they will work their way around it. Better would be to concentrate on the reasons behind cheating, not the cheating itself or you can ban the world, leaving only some purists who will first laugh at the banned and the wonder where everyone is.
Cheating can be cured with features, not with brute force. If you ban, smartest cheaters will prevail making the others upset.
I'll tell you about the reasons.
For example redding is small town, klamath is big. In redding it's easy to bring proxies and fast relogs help alot in pvp. Klamath is harder because big map forces you to control single char longer and distance means the help from proxy arrives later.
Certain activities demand some waiting, so if I wait I might aswell do something and relog, or just click another window. Players want to play the game and do stuff, all the time. They want to be on control and have that control affect how well they do things. I doubt players relog that much when they are fighting in hinkley.
This may sound like whining and demanding new changes right nao, but I'm simply explaining the reasons why people cheat because you brought the whole issue up.
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You could still relog and do harmless stuff.
You kill some laser pistol PK in Modoc, second later you see "off" and his alt with gatling in CA comes in.
I guess it's "too boring" to lose for some people. This is my enemy not "playerbase".
Don't put equal sign between all players and abusers, thank you.
With sleepiness he would have to keep both characters logged in and it's much more risky and less convenient.
Penalty could be reduced to combat skills I guess. Although I don't really see why people should be allowed
to farm with alts in every mine, if the resources are finite or alt-heal themselves in respawn points. If you really
have to taxi-alt occasionally you can wait 5 minutes.
This is exactly what you ask for, sleepiness would be in-game feature ;)
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You kill some laser pistol PK in Modoc, second later you see "off" and his alt with gatling in CA comes in.
I guess it's "too boring" to lose for some people. This is my enemy not "playerbase".
But we players already take proxies and reloggers into consideration. If the map is small, they are more likely to jump on you before you can react.
Either way, it is true that only fast reloggers start fighting right after relog, casual players take time. But is it wrong? When you go fighting, you risk stuff by bringing your geared character in unsafe area. Combat fast relog only sucks if you don't do it yourself, your enemy does and you lose. But if you win, you get big loot. Besides, instead of fast relog it could be anyone else. If you consider characters just characters, then fast relogger is just another assailant who just knows where you are.
Either way, sleepyness could be used in this case but it must not be longer than 30 seconds. But even then there's mercs.
With sleepiness he would have to keep both characters logged in and it's much more risky and less convenient.
So you want players to cheat more so that they can be caught easier?
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I agree with this, allow the players to move around and stuff, but combat or farming is not immediately available. Far too many people camp alts around towns. i have had to run through 3-4 alts at a time while trying to do simple tasks in unguarded towns and defending myself. It shouldn't be a war of attrition about who can relog the fastest or who has more alts in the same area.
You die with one character, you lose the fight. Deal with it.
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So you want players to cheat more so that they can be caught easier?
No, not more. They will cheat the same. But they would have to use method that is much
much easier to detect, prove and punish. For example PvP multilogs would have to stay logged
in all the time to be effective because you never know when fight will start. Dual loggers who
just want to make tent etc would have nothing to worry about, because it's not forbidden
anymore to dual log for stuff that doesn't break game for other players.
Besides, instead of fast relog it could be anyone else. If you consider characters just characters, then fast relogger is just another assailant who just knows where you are.
And how much HP/how injured you are, and what weapon you have and you can surprise that
person in 1 second while they are reloading/looting/regenerating AP. This is not a knowledge
of just "other character". Defending powerabusers with "roleplay" arguments? Oh please.
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No, not more. They will cheat the same. But they would have to use method that is much
much easier to detect, prove and punish. For example PvP multilogs would have to stay logged
in all the time to be effective because you never know when fight will start. Dual loggers who
just want to make tent etc would have nothing to worry about, because it's not forbidden
anymore to dual log for stuff that doesn't break game for other players.
And how much HP/how injured you are, and what weapon you have and you can surprise that
person in 1 second while they are reloading/regenerating AP. This is not a knowledge of just
"other character". Defending powerabusers with "roleplay" arguments? Oh please.
You should be able to use doctor/first aid still however. I often find myself relogging onto an alt that has doctor to heal my crippled limbs. I don't feel that this is too abusive, and since its not going to directly affect combat, will still deal with the problems you are talking about
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Some kind of Dual-log protection must be implemented for sure but it must be easy to monitor and ban to not take much time from Gms and Devs.
And actually dont see any reason why it must affects craft/gathering because no cd on it.
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And actually dont see any reason why it must affects craft/gathering because no cd on it.
I didn't say anything about crafting. But gathering is different story, resources do have global timeouts/are limited
so if someone farms them all with alts in every location others won't get any. It puts other players at direct
disadvantage. Although it's unsafe locations and alt farmers usually are bluesuits so it's not a big problem
(well unless you don't shoot them, duh, I guess one has no choice and either become alter or a PK).
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Nice suggestion!
you can still log in with another char to do some inoffensiv stuff and it avoids (not completely but a lot) alt abusing (mining/healing/trading/pvp alt drop).
i love it :)
Implement!
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No. Just no.
If it's about being anti pvp cheat feature, then make it few minutes for shooting or just decreasing statistics a little bit. We all know that PvP apes are counted to use every single SPECIAL point. If every single one of them will be decreased by 1-2 points then PVP-alt will be useless for PvP but possible to use in crafting/traveling/exping etc.
This way people not interested in PvP won't be harmed (at least much).
Jovanka I just had to say I hate this idea as a player not interested in TC/PvP. I don't give a fu*k about TC/PvP and feel like it'll harm people interested in having some fun from game beside mentioned.
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I dont get it, how it will harm people who are not fast reloging?
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I dont get it, how it will harm people who are not fast reloging?
Because of this
(no mining ore, etc, you get "you are too sleepy to work now").
They also get penalty to all skills equal to sleepy_seconds_left * -1%.
So right after relog you have -300% to all skills and the penalty gradually goes down.
Some people doesn't play sessions of 5-6 and more hours a day. Some people just like to jump in. Do something. Get back to safe tent and continue some other time/day.
With mentioned feature it'll look like:
1. Log in on fighting character A.
2. Wait 5 minutes (because you are defenseless and don't want to loose equipment in silly fight).
3. Go for ore, dig it get it to the base/tent.
4. Log out A. Log in crafting character B.
5. Wait 5 minutes (for example: you don't have base and need to go to city to craft stuff. You won't go with B who have no means of defending himself).
6. Go to city, craft, get back.
7. Log out B. Log in A.
8. Wait 5 minutes. Go exp.
There are many, many little things like this which will make game pain in the ass wait-simulator. I personally don't know any other game which would demand from you to wait just after starting to play. If you do, please bring it up for consideration mechanics used in it.
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My suggestion is to remove TC at all.
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The playerbase isn't your enemy.
Every GM should be required to repeat this sentence at least 100 times a day when standing in front of a mirror.
There are many, many little things like this which will make game pain in the ass wait-simulator. I personally don't know any other game which would demand from you to wait just after starting to play. If you do, please bring it up for consideration mechanics used in it.
Let's set a precedent! From now on, every game will have to have this feature! Fight the power!
Seriously though, this is a very, very bad idea. Do you really want the few players that still play this game to quit, JovankaB? Do you? Because that is what you're working towards here in this thread. I hope you are aware of that.
You should be able to use doctor/first aid still however. I often find myself relogging onto an alt that has doctor to heal my crippled limbs. I don't feel that this is too abusive
Are you serious? "Ban things I don't use, sure, but let me still do MY thing?" WOW, what an egocentric little prick you are, pardon my French. I had to read this three times before I finally believed that it really says what it says.
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4. Log out A. Log in crafting character B.
Well, here is your problem ;)
me neither, i dont play all day long, merly few hours per week.
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Because of thisSome people doesn't play sessions of 5-6 and more hours a day. Some people just like to jump in. Do something. Get back to safe tent and continue some other time/day.
I don't really understand. Nobody is talking about having to play 6 hours.
You jump in, get hammer from tent/base, go to mine, and by then the sleepiness should be almost gone.
Unless you logout in the mines with mule alts...
Let's be honest, "jump in for a minute every 20 minutes" means simply... material grinding/farming.
I don't really see any gameplay value in this that should be preserved.
And stop with this GMs hate playerbase, I'm a player too and farmed hundreds of itanz myself as well ;)
Sorry but "GMs hate playerbase" "everyone will quit" is appeal to emotion not valid points in discussion...
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I understand what technicaly you want to implement, JovankaB, but i just dont understand, what do you want to achieve by implementing this feature. Do you think that newbies will stay in game, because they would find more resources in mines, because other players would mine less resources, because they would not be allowed to fast relog?
Am i insane or this is a suggestion from long playing gamemaster?
What players expect from multiplayer game? Players! And interaction = action. Do they get any? Not enough (because they dont stay). So problem n.1 devs, gamemasters and community should solve is to give players enough action, ideally action that involve interaction with other players. Because if anybody wants to satisfy own mining and crafting desire only, he will play minecraft, not Fonline. So shocking :o
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Fast relog should be enabled after every wipe. Ideally it eventually should be turned off, but it just makes game harder for people that dont proxy.
If somehow proxies were disabled, I would support 3 miner timer. Not a 3 minute timer on logging in, but 0 AP if a different alt is logged in. Better and easier to implement than -300 skill. Player relogs to new alt and can travel world map, talk to people...but cant do anything that involves AP.
Also TC now involves having multiple alts logged out over town. So when someone wins a battle, you can just fastlog and hop back in to finish off the winners of the first battle. Strategy to counter act that is to lvl up another set of alts to do the same thing. So then other team makes another team of alts to counter act that. Though having a team of people with 12 different alts each might be fun. Constant brutal pvp action as each char relogs and another hops right into battle. Mountains of loot!
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Fast relog is one of the most useful features this era, as we have to manage two base "leaders" to add alt X or player Y to terminal. With relog timer >0 it's real pain in the arse, please not.
And for fast relogs during battles - well, cheaters gonna cheat.
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Fast relog is one of the most useful features this era, as we have to manage two base "leaders" to add alt X or player Y to terminal. With relog timer >0 it's real pain in the arse, please not.
You dont need AP use a terminal, talk to people for a quest, travel world map, craft(cant pick up mats though). My method allows fast relog, but player has 0 AP for 3 minutes.
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You dont need AP use a terminal, talk to people for a quest, travel world map, craft(cant pick up mats though). My method allows fast relog, but player has 0 AP for 3 minutes.
Yes please tb traps will pwn all :)
Or forever knockdown :D
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Its not perfect. Seemed a little too easy. But not being able to do much in game is better than just waiting.
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Or maybe reducing perception to 1 and combat skill by 50% for 5 minutes.
Even if we forget about all other aspects of multi-logging,
I think at least sleepiness nerfing combat powers right after relog is reasonable to think about.
I don't think fights should be about who gathered more alts over town...
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Or maybe reducing perception to 1 and combat skill by 50% for 5 minutes.
Even if we forget about all other aspects of multi-logging,
I think at least sleepiness nerfing combat powers right after relog is reasonable.
I don't think fights should be about who gathered more alts over town...
I honestly don't know why people are trying to argue you over this. It is completely reasonable mechanic. I think most of the people in this thread are just afraid to lose their advantage.
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I like the idea too although fine-tuning the penalty could be tricky.
Is it possible to make it so that you couldn't start combat (i.e. take any action that would make you go on the combat timer) but could still defend yourself if attacked (i.e. if somebody puts you on combat-time you can act freely)?.
It could still be abused by having a team-mate punch you to enable you to act, but if your actions during the 'self-defense' time didn't reset the timer then needing a teammate to punch you every 10 seconds would still be a drain on your -sides- effectiveness.
It could be justified as an adrenaline surge when your 'tired' character realizes somebody's shooting at them.
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For pvp this feature is probably quite must or we will have fucking ridiculous pvp in this session. The login cooldown should only disable attacking for equal time it aproximately takes to spawn, regear and come back. I tested dying in reno, spawning, going to my spawnbase, grabbing stuff and driving back to reno. It took 45 seconds. Add spawntimer which is 1 minute and you got 1min 45 seconds. Since people take differend ammount of time to come back and regear and for example bh spawn is further away, the timer could be set to plain 2 minutes. This would give enough time for winning team to prepare for whatever the losers decide to send against them.
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Thank you so much Doctor Jovanka for this suggestion.
I know limiting fast relog is very unpopular but it must be limited in some way.
New rules for pvp battles are now as follow:
=> ennemy detected in a town
=> take your time to place enough pvp alt over the map
=> launch the attack
As we are lazy, we still try to fight without alts over map
=> last night the defeat in Den was bitter
I know a game isn't meant to be realistic but to kill 3 times in a row the same character and finally die because no one lives forever (lack of ammo, Stimpacks), I find it so lame.
Of course, town control battles concern only a small part of the community and maybe fast relog is a good thing for others.
But, this new rule of bringing pvp alt over map before beginning battle, well I will farm or do small scale pvp battles until it changes.
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For pvp this feature is probably quite must or we will have fucking ridiculous pvp in this session. The login cooldown should only disable attacking for equal time it aproximately takes to spawn, regear and come back. I tested dying in reno, spawning, going to my spawnbase, grabbing stuff and driving back to reno. It took 45 seconds. Add spawntimer which is 1 minute and you got 1min 45 seconds. Since people take differend ammount of time to come back and regear and for example bh spawn is further away, the timer could be set to plain 2 minutes. This would give enough time for winning team to prepare for whatever the losers decide to send against them.
This looks VERY reasonable!
2 minutes is not much if you want to switch to another character, but it is enough to avoid PVP alt abusing. Basicly it's time necessary to respawn, grab your stuff and go back to fight. I dont see any down sides and pvp experience will benefit a lot from it.
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So instead of 3 clients I'll have to open an additional, 4th window just so I can freely switch characters and effectively avoid this feature.
Great idea indeed.
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You kill some laser pistol PK in Modoc, second later you see "off" and his alt with gatling in CA comes in.
or you are killed by PK in modoc and you relog on PvP char to punish him.
duallog should be prohibited and using it punished by IP ban
some kind of nerfing combat relogs is really must.
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For pvp this feature is probably quite must or we will have fucking ridiculous pvp in this session. The login cooldown should only disable attacking for equal time it aproximately takes to spawn, regear and come back. I tested dying in reno, spawning, going to my spawnbase, grabbing stuff and driving back to reno. It took 45 seconds.
There was a cooldown for relog already. up to 10 minutes, so you couldn't just jump between characters in no time. There was a crawling "speed" of map traveling, so people were unable to come back in a minute or so. There is a weakness after respawn, so people can't just FA themselves easy. All these had or have to stop these nasty exploiters and fast relogers. All failed, fail and will fail, as long as there are immature people, that are afraid to lose in a computer game - "majority" term anyone?
Restrictions set to prevent some retarded apes from abusing hurt as usual innocents, that sometimes don't even care for apeshit business. These restrictions almost never hurt apes of course, people can go around one way or another and they will. Apes first, lumberjacks then, even newcomers gonna do this if they only know how.
Funny, how PvP in this game is bond tight to cheating.
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So instead of 3 clients I'll have to open an additional, 4th window just so I can freely switch characters and effectively avoid this feature.
Great idea indeed.
Yes you would need multiple clients opened all the time to cheat in combat effectively.
Then at least you would be easier to report, observe and ban for being cheating cheapass.
Big improvement over current situation when you risk absolutely nothing with fast relogs.
There was a cooldown for relog already. up to 10 minutes, so you couldn't just jump between characters in no time.
Yes you could. And if you waited 180 seconds for previous alt to disappear, I guarantee you,
you were perfectly safe doing it. Sleepiness is different kind of cooldown, it's not meant for
anyone to stop from fast relogging but to participate in PvP with character who just logged in.
Penalty can't be avoided in any way except by having multiple characters logged in all the time.
If it was 2-3 minute combat nerf you would hardly ever notice it if you don't PvP using alts.
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There was a crawling "speed" of map traveling, so people were unable to come back in a minute or so.
Don't think this was the reason of the speed.
All failed, fail and will fail
I don't agree. Proxy sneak and proxy merc were really the only thing seen frequently. Maybe sometime you had to fight 2 wave of CS char but that's it. But right now, bringing fresh alt to fight when you die, over and over again is frequent.
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I don't agree. Proxy sneak and proxy merc were really the only thing seen frequently. Maybe sometime you had to fight 2 wave of CS char but that's it. But right now, bringing fresh alt to fight when you die, over and over again is frequent.
It's true. Only the most dedicated losers cheated so that it was really troublesome in previous session. But problem with previous session was also lack of gm presence. Honestly only gm can stop proxies in enviroment like we got: open and anyone can enter when they want.
Proxy scouting, looting and taxiing is not big deal, causes minor annoyance but is tolerable. But when people start spawning mercs or getting reinforcements it goes over the top.
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Restrictions set to prevent some retarded apes from abusing hurt as usual innocents, that sometimes don't even care for apeshit business. These restrictions almost never hurt apes of course, people can go around one way or another and they will. Apes first, lumberjacks then, even newcomers gonna do this if they only know how.
I couldn't have said it better by myself.
Proxy scouting, looting and taxiing is not big deal, causes minor annoyance but is tolerable.
It's not tolerable in any way. It always suck when you face 10 real enemies and you meet 9 sneakers and 10 PvP chars on the battleground. Fights are won sometimes narrowly so the last man standing determines winning team. In these cases this one proxy sneaker makes a huge difference.
Either strictly ban people using proxy, so there will be nobody who dares to use it (very unlikely) or leave this issue. So far I haven't experienced any huge problem with multiple alts on WM, yes people tend to do it, in worse case you will die, in better case you get more loot. That's something I can live with, not like when there is a group of "better" players who have an advantage.
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Either strictly ban people using proxy, so there will be nobody who dares to use it (very unlikely) or leave this issue.
No problem with this. However once something is declared wrong or against the rules, there will be strong demand to always punish the cheaters when they are met. Especially by those players who don't do it themselves. In addition The punishing just has to be done properly so that the right people who fuck others up with cheats get banned and punished. Instead of banning I'd rather see them banished, wiped away from the game. Gms could give like clear warning what won't be tolerated, wait for a week or month and gather data and intelligence and then steamroll the abusers that didn't take the note. Then there shouldn't be any moaning that "I didn't know it was against the rules".
Danger is that the less harmful cheaters get punished most because they aren't so experienced in avoiding gms and hiding their cheats.
So far I haven't experienced any huge problem with multiple alts on WM, yes people tend to do it, in worse case you will die, in better case you get more loot. That's something I can live with, not like when there is a group of "better" players who have an advantage.
If nothing is done, it's going to be a major part of this session's pvp. I will personally level at least 5 pvp alts for exactly this purpose if nothing is done about fast combat relogs.
The main problem is that new players to pvp will be left behind badly as well as occasional pvpers. First they will have to get stuff to even pvp, then level a horde of alts if they want to manage anywhere near how long term players are doing. It will another "do this or fall" task for us all.
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And stop with this GMs hate playerbase, I'm a player too and farmed hundreds of itanz myself as well ;)
Sorry but "GMs hate playerbase" "everyone will quit" is appeal to emotion not valid points in discussion...
The fact that everyone is against it means that it's a stupid suggestion.
Oh and it's not appeal to emotion, it's appeal to logic.
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Maybe sometime you had to fight 2 wave of CS char but that's it. But right now, bringing fresh alt to fight when you die, over and over again is frequent.
Oh, so only the naughty CS did the dirty cheatz and proxiez? Didn't they have something about "fair play" in signatures for a while? :>
I hardly recognize gangs, all these CS, TTL, DVD, HDMI, CD-RW acronyms, I barely trust any of them speaking about "no cheating" and I really don't know why punish all community for sins of only part of it?
Problem is we don't have clear statement from dev team yet, considering cheating in PvP. Nobody knows if reporting "Pwnz0r1", "Pwnz0r2" and "Pwzn0r3" in a row will cause any consequences for owner of these chars.
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Dual log was put into "OKish" gray area as long it doesn't break game for other players.
Major part of breaking game includes dual logging in PvP.
Problem is fast relogs are about as effective as dual logs, you can't control 3 characters
efficiently at the same time anyway, but you can switch between them on WM.
And fast relogs are harder for GMs to fight with ("it was my brother that logged off. he went to shop, sori").
The fact that everyone is against it means that it's a stupid suggestion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
And second of all, not everyone was against it.
Come back when you will have some proper arguments, thanks.
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Listen smartass, you know exactly what I meant.
But if you want arguments then let me tell you this. You would hurt every player to punish a few. Every player would be affected by this because everyone would have the same timout thing. Some won't care about it but others will be pissed off.
Let me give you an example.
I only have one account and don't make alts because I don't want to. I could care less if I kill someone and he comes back with an alt to fight back. What I do care about is limiting me because you have a problem with something that doesn't even concern me.
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You login and you jump right into fights the same minute?
You can do plenty of other things first 120 seconds. Also, I was considering:
You don't get it, if (...) you didn't switch characters on the same client.
And about your previous post, no, I don't know what you meant.
You posted fallacious argument and called it appeal to logic. Your second post is much better, thanks.
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You would hurt every player to punish a few. Every player would be affected by this because everyone would have the same timout thing. Some won't care about it but others will be pissed off.
This part is essence of what I had in mind.
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You login and you jump right into fights the same minute?
You can do plenty of other things first 120 seconds. Also, I was considering:
And about your previous post, no, I don't know what you meant.
You posted fallacious argument and called it appeal to logic. Your second post is much better, thanks.
I might not login and jump right into fights every time, but whenever I want to do that I want to be able to do that.
It will get on my nerves if whenever I want to take a 5 min break from the game and I would log back in to have to wait.
Well my dear Jovanka, if you really are dull enough not to understand what I meant then I will explain.
I take it that the developers don't make the game to play it themselves. So I also take it that the developers are developing this game for the fonline 2238 community of players. If they are making it for the players then I assume that they want the players to be happy with the game. If majority of the players are against the change then clearly the majority will be unhappy with the change. If the developers want the players to be happy with the game then it is safe to assume that the developers do not want the players to be unhappy with the feature.
And from my point of view, that makes your suggestion stupid.
Then you post that "Sorry but "GMs hate playerbase" "everyone will quit" is appeal to emotion not valid points in discussion..."
Since you are such a linguistics nazi I want to point out that it is not pathos, it is logos. Appeals to logic.
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If majority of the players are against the change then clearly the majority will be unhappy with the change.
I see 2 problems here:
1. You call maybe 5 people who spoke here clearly against it "majority of the players".
2. You jump to conclusion that they will hate something when they try it just because they though it was bad idea.
Let's consider avv's version - 120 seconds, with less combat abilities on relog.
It's far, far less restrictive than 10 minute relog timeout that was before and much more effective at what it was supposed to protect against.
And if you don't want game to restrict you, maybe devs should add fly ability for everyone. Or teleportation. :P ;)
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I love JovankaB, just for the record.
Also for the record: i totally oppose this idea.
The ability we have this new season to quickly switch characters with no delay is a huge improvement that benefits everyone. When i get PK'd in the mine, i now at least have a chance to switch to my fighter and go deal some justice. That PK knows he might need to move on or face my fighter very soon. If i cannot find him, i switch back to my miner and pick up where i left off working in the mine.
If i have to wait again like last season, it is NO disadvantage to the PK - only disadvantage to me. The more time it takes to play this game, the less people will play it.
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I really like this idea, because like was stated several times, fast relogging back to fight is major problem this season. If you tweak it correctly, it would hinder only pvp apes and other players can do whatever they did.
Reducing combat skills and/or some SPECIAL stat is way to go.
@Marko - Youre complaining because your pure miner cant fight back. If you make such chars, you should face consequences.
@Chocolate_Chip_Cookies - You know, not everything that makes players happy should be added into the game. Id be happy to have free APAs, but would it make the game better ?
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@Chocolate_Chip_Cookies - You know, not everything that makes players happy should be added into the game. Id be happy to have free APAs, but would it make the game better ?
But you see the thing about majority is that it will always regulate itself. If someone wants to implement free APAs, the majority will be against it. Because no one really wants chaos and unbalance and the majority will vote for what's fair.
At least that's what I believe. Think about it.
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I might not login and jump right into fights every time, but whenever I want to do that I want to be able to do that.
It will get on my nerves if whenever I want to take a 5 min break from the game and I would log back in to have to wait.
But if you hardly ever start fighting right before you log in, what's the problem? You want to do it but you don't have to. I bet the multialt reloggers too would want to jump in right after relog.
Could you describe me a situation where you yourself absolutely want to start fighting right after loging?
Besides, once you actually encounter this fastrelogging you pretty much want to either do it yourself or want it being limited.
The ability we have this new season to quickly switch characters with no delay is a huge improvement that benefits everyone. When i get PK'd in the mine, i now at least have a chance to switch to my fighter and go deal some justice. That PK knows he might need to move on or face my fighter very soon. If i cannot find him, i switch back to my miner and pick up where i left off working in the mine.
If i have to wait again like last season, it is NO disadvantage to the PK - only disadvantage to me. The more time it takes to play this game, the less people will play it.
So you're avoiding the low carryweight limit of your pvp ape with your hauler and then get upset when avoiding the flaws of your character via loophole becomes harder? Shouldn't you be saying that chars don't have enough cw as default?
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I'm not complaining at all. I like the way it is. They did a good job allowing fast relog.
@Sarakin: You're complaining but i don't know why. Truth is, i already face the consequences of having a crafter/miner, and it all works for me just fine. I fast-switch to fighter when trouble comes to the mine. Everything is cool - no need to change this since it isn't broken.
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I fast-switch to fighter when trouble comes to the mine. Everything is cool - no need to change this since it isn't broken.
You might change your mind after this pk jumps in with second, third and then fourth char. Either you do the same or... what?
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The fact that everyone is against it means that it's a stupid suggestion.
Bulshit! Its a good sugestion!
But if you want arguments then let me tell you this. You would hurt every player to punish a few. Every player would be affected by this because everyone would have the same timout thing. Some won't care about it but others will be pissed off.
can you explain (give a precise exemple) how 2 minute combat cooldown after login would hurt not alting player?
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What about mining alt :P?
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can you explain (give a precise exemple) how 2 minute combat cooldown after login would hurt not alting player?
Sleepy characters can't extract materials from facilities (no mining ore, etc, you get "you are too sleepy to work now").
They also get penalty to all skills equal to sleepy_seconds_left * -1%.
So right after relog you have -300% to all skills and the penalty gradually goes down.
But if you hardly ever start fighting right before you log in, what's the problem? You want to do it but you don't have to. I bet the multialt reloggers too would want to jump in right after relog.
Could you describe me a situation where you yourself absolutely want to start fighting right after loging?
Let me give you this example. What I do is go on hunts, in locations far away from my base. I hunt for loot and then make my way back to the base. I don't take alot of stuff with me like stimpacks. What I rely on is first aid. I often end up almost dead and go to worldmap to heal up. My first aid timeout is 3 minutes and whenever it is not ready and I'm wounded I exit the game because it is pointless to wait 3 minutes staring at the worldmap. Now every time I log back in and am ready to fight right away or even use first aid, I can't because of the extra 2 minute timeout. That's really gonna piss me off and once I exit the game to take the break I won't even feel like logging back in.
And for the record I have no problem with reloggers. I don't think it's an issue at all and I have no alts.
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:-X habibi, please...As always these kind of tweaks which affects everyone "equally" is what YOU pretend, but instead the reality is ,that because it doesnt fix the origin of the exploits at all it just ends up making it hard ONLY for the ones who doesnt cheat, and as i always said, this is a beta why is there a need to wait so much?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arwhzV3aWOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arwhzV3aWOQ)
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Let me give you this example. What I do is go on hunts, in locations far away from my base. I hunt for loot and then make my way back to the base. I don't take alot of stuff with me like stimpacks. What I rely on is first aid. I often end up almost dead and go to worldmap to heal up. My first aid timeout is 3 minutes and whenever it is not ready and I'm wounded I exit the game because it is pointless to wait 3 minutes staring at the worldmap. Now every time I log back in and am ready to fight right away or even use first aid, I can't because of the extra 2 minute timeout. That's really gonna piss me off and once I exit the game to take the break I won't even feel like logging back in.
But since you only have one char, can't you just stay logged in?
And for the record I have no problem with reloggers. I don't think it's an issue at all and I have no alts.
How much pvp have you done in this session? I don't have problem with reloggers either when doing pve or shopping in safe towns.
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But since you only have one char, can't you just stay logged in?
How much pvp have you done in this session? I don't have problem with reloggers either when doing pve or shopping in safe towns.
I can but do I want to do that? No.
During these hunts I just log on for 5 minutes just to fight one encounter and then exit game to heal up and then come back after 10 min for another 5 minute round.
I often have other stuff I need to be doing, so the 5 minutes I get on every so often is a break from what I was doing.
And I have had pvp where I go to New Reno and kill someone and he comes back with an alt. And I have died from that. It still doesn't bother me.
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Im have some characters, but this sleepy, non combat status is not any problem to my, and again 2minutes for non PvP player is litlle time, is afecting most PvP, big gangs, in where are most whiners, most player are not i TC, because is monopolize by big druga/1000alt/ gangs, and they wont give a damn.
I only have one account and don't make alts because I don't want to. I could care less if I kill someone and he comes back with an alt to fight back
And thats sick, they com kill you, you relog to some combat ape, and kill them, nor any sens, nor funn, nor climate, you kill him, and the come to fights with another powerbuild character.
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I can but do I want to do that? No.
So the game should cater precisely for you and your playstyle? Do you realize that the way you play is quite far cry how many others play it?
And I have had pvp where I go to New Reno and kill someone and he comes back with an alt. And I have died from that. It still doesn't bother me.
It doesn't bother me either because I'm gonna do it myself too. This isn't about what bothers who but how the game is going to turn out. Do you think it's okay that beginning and occasional pvp players will have no place in late game pvp because they don't have enough characters to put on worldmap for relogs?
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So the game should cater precisely for you and your playstyle? Do you realize that the way you play is quite far cry how many others play it?
Oh the irony.
Let's forget about initial suggestion.
I think it would be perfect if returning from respawn, healing, restocking would be more less
the same as relogging on another charater. The question is how can it be done, and
preferably in a way that doesn't hurt PvE too much. It could be SPECIAL penalty in following
way: You get -10 SPECIAL penalty points.
First, PE is penalized down to 1.
If there are still some penalty points, the remain points are used to penalize ST
If there are still some penalty points, the remain points are used to penalize LK
And so on, I'm not sure about the order, but the point is it should be SPECIALs
that matter the most in PvP and PvE the least. I think PE should be first.
If you are turn based PvE 120 seconds of such penalty wouldn't be a big deal.
I mean, seriously, you can use the time to increase range from enemies
or whatever even if you get immediately encounter. RT PvE first 120 seconds
would be a bit worse but you could still one hex enemies. We are talking about
2 minutes (or similar time) after login here while your character is "sleepy".
Mercenerias should get the same penalty.
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You cant just simply eliminate some behaviour by implementing and enforcing the rules. It does not work so simply in real world, where most of people's actions are unanonymous, the more in internet environment.
I can give you real life shiny examle. Look at prohibition in US in 1920s. They prohibit alcohol consumption (=very popular activity), but people did not care. And people who organized alcohol distribution profited from that.
I will tell you what wil be result. More players (than previous session) would use proxies, because they experienced comfort of fast relog. The "good guys" will suffer more, because they will need more time for basic agenda (=undisputable result of implementing cooldown) and they will be more pissed on players who will use proxies. Also GMs, instead of spending time in events activities, they will catch players.
Fonline environment without dual logs and fast relogs is castle in the air.
What really could works, are game mechanisms which prefer "no dual log or no fast relog behaviour". Examples?
Raise (or lower :) ) negative HPs to higher values. If char would have minus 100 hps, he will not so quick abandon his current char for another.
TC (organized PvP) should not be based on rule that allows to concentrate and prepare many alts (loitering) but it should be based on fast action => fast reaction principles. ... and others. This could work, not naive dreams.
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You cant just simply eliminate some behaviour by implementing and enforcing the rules. It does not work so simply in real world, where most of people's actions are unanonymous, the more in internet environment.
How often did you really see an obvious mass-scale pvp fastrelog in previous session? I remember seeing like one. People didn't bother to bypass the relog timer that much. Instead they used taxi proxy to bring back their dead guys.
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How often did you really see an obvious mass-scale pvp fastrelog in previous session? I remember seeing like one. People didn't bother to bypass the relog timer that much. Instead they used taxi proxy to bring back their dead guys.
Dont forget, that current session behaviour arises from the conditions they were at the beginning of the session. If personal comfort is reduced, people strive to improve it, even they will violate rules. So comparsion between previous and current session could not work.
But more important is the aproach. I just dont like reductions, eliminations, limitations as a solution for gameplay fixes.
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Trying to think of a simple solution. Instead of 0 AP, items in players hands are moved into inventory for 3 minutes? Or somehow items in hand cannot be used for 3 minutes. Only pvp HtH alts would not really be affected.
Relogging miner alts can still mine, can still run away in TB battles, people can barter, gather, go questing, leaders can quick log to add a new alt to base.
Will allow a single player to use multiple alts to clear all the mines without travelling, while also letting people pvp without having to lvl24 a dozen alts just to be the last one standing.
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Trying to think of a simple solution. Instead of 0 AP, items in players hands are moved into inventory for 3 minutes? Or somehow items in hand cannot be used for 3 minutes. Only pvp HtH alts would not really be affected. bla bla bla
Even more dumb suggestion :P I though its suggestion about punish alt miners and pvp fast relog but i see ur way is troll way improve
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Let me give you this example. What I do is go on hunts, in locations far away from my base. I hunt for loot and then make my way back to the base. I don't take alot of stuff with me like stimpacks. What I rely on is first aid. I often end up almost dead and go to worldmap to heal up. My first aid timeout is 3 minutes and whenever it is not ready and I'm wounded I exit the game because it is pointless to wait 3 minutes staring at the worldmap. Now every time I log back in and am ready to fight right away or even use first aid, I can't because of the extra 2 minute timeout. That's really gonna piss me off and once I exit the game to take the break I won't even feel like logging back in.
Invalid argument. Since you only have 1 character you can as well stay logged in and just minimize the game. If your pc is any better than a potato, the fact that a minimalized FOnline application is running won't have any real effects on your system. Problem solved.
I think what avv suggested is the best solution possible. At least 2 minutes cooldown penalty on all fighting skills seems very reasonable to me, as it would only punish the PvP alt reloggers, not casual players and people who have crafting alts.
Btw. little OT but I rly think it's rly retarded you can only have one tent per character, especially since everyone that plays the game longer than a week is making tent alts anyway, so what's the point? Why don't you devs just allow people to have let's say 3 tents per character and make this game a little easier and more fun to new and casual players.
Any newb that starts the game now just ends up being helplessly stuck in his 'empty pockets' situation - the vendors don't rly accept MOST items, especially the ones a begginer could have, making trading impossible for noobs - true story bro. I've seen a lot players who were just getting started and stuff... they all got frustrated eventually, since the economy as it is now doesn't rly allow you to exist outside of a gang, if you don't have the skills to craft and farm good stuff for yourself. Any new player starts the game, he gets stuck - and then he quits forever. And "The wasteland is harsh" is not a real argument. ;D
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So instead of saying its dumb, offer another way of allowing fast relog that wont lead to pvp fast relogging.
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I will support this idea only if you add coffee that takes away sleepiness.
Seeing coffee brewers or a wasteland starbucks will make me forget about having to wait the 2 minute timeout.
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My suggestion is to remove TC at all.
This would solve 90% of this game's problems. Unfortunately, it would also probably decrease server donations by 90% as well.
I'm all for sleepiness. If it is 5 minutes of penalty to all skills. That would be annoying. But with 2 minutes I can even agree to a big countdown after login. You log into your character and it counts down from 120 to 0 and only then does the server let you connect fully. 2 minutes is nothing. I can open the game, go watch a youtube lolcat and I'm playing before the lolcat ends.
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What about increasing damage taken from players by 50-100% for the first 2 minutes after logging in?
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fuck it. i like waves fighting...
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I like the idea of nerfing the reloggers somehow. prefer just to have the old timeout system but anything is better than nothing.
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Please do not kill the current feature for PvEers for the sake of stepping on PK-Trolls shoes.
Also gangs with shared chars -> gone as it is right now.
Remember that old godmode feature when you entered a town? you couldn't be harmed but also couldn't harm anyone else for a few seconds.
Do that for X seconds after fast-relog, only applied to player-characters. If you kill someone in a town and then take a nap there after doin that - your fault if someone "else" comes and kills you.
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Please do not kill the current feature for PvEers
You need fast relog for PvE? SERIOUSLY? How cheap some players can be?
How about taking some challenge instead? :/
Also gangs with shared chars -> gone as it is right now.
How so? Shared char is relogged every 2 minutes and must have 100% combat abilities?
What kind of char are you talking about?
Not to mention shared chars is another curse of wasteland, some tiny nerf wouldn't hurt.
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Not to mention shared chars is another curse of wasteland, some tiny nerf wouldn't hurt.
This session stimulates shared characters due to a lot of things:
mining - depleted resources, 1 alt per mine
crafting - blueprints
trading - new system
repairing - new system
sciencing - return depending on skill
Pre-wipe there was much less sharing of characters. Most I've seen of it pre-wipe was for helping someone to get an alt to his private base or taxi alts.
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Oh I knew you would react like that if I don't write my point in more detail.
See we have gang-chars for quests for example. Now everybody is doin their thing when one calls to group-questing. Which is very much fun. Now everyone is scattered around the wasteland or is not geared up etc. People moan about waiting for others 15 minutes and stuff. So we just relog to our faction-chars, have fun together with PvE and after that is over, logout, login, back to your personal char. This is fun for players, doesn't hurt anyone and boosts social play. And the best: you can do it anytime and instantly.
Now I can understand we can discuss about the time of CD on relog all day but for most people -> waiting = boring.
Most people > you.
And stop blabbering stuff about me beeing cheap all out of the blue just to defend your point, we are both long enough in this game and we both know that we both want to make it less-exploit and less-cheat ridden. I played through all seasons since 2nd and nobody ever heard any whine from my side regarding game-mechanics. Perma-Death, Mega-Long CD on everything, etc etc - i don't care, I just want to roam the wastes of F1+2 with more than just NPCs.
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The first post should be rephrased so that this sleepyness only concerns combat, or at least combat. Gathering is still open question.
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Jovanka, you never were a PvP player, why do you think your solutions are going to make people who have been fighting for 3 years now happy? This sleepyness mechanic is just another timesink that keeps PvP apes from PvPing and makes the game less fun for them. In tactical terms, 2 minutes is just not enough and 10 minutes+ required to make the difference is downright retarded. Same thing really as with drugs a few sessions before - they used to require waiting during the withdrawal period and people complained, now the entire process is smooth and non-intrusive in gameplay terms and everyone is happy. Obviously, I assume that the goal here is making people happy instead of making them butthurt so initiatives like this one are simply counter-productive.
As to the whole alting and multilogging issue - it's the most efficient way to play this game and it's about the only way that keeps you occupied at all times, if you don't want that than the fault is with the game itself, not with the playerbase (who shows basic adaptation skills by using those techniques). Waging a guerilla war on the large part of the community is not going to do anything good, but you just seem to never learn. I mean, name one positive thing about implementing the numerous timesinks and running witch hunts that happened in the last few years, because the only result I've seen was people getting irritated and/or quitting, which in turn resulted in a very limited playerbase we have now. So yeah, shouldn't you be doing something useful like creating content for non-PvP oriented people (there used to be a lot, now there's almost none) instead of forcing yourself onto lads who generally are quite content with how things are?
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This sleepyness mechanic is just another timesink that keeps PvP apes from PvPing and makes the game less fun for them.In tactical terms, 2 minutes is just not enough and 10 minutes+ required to make the difference is downright retarded.
So what you like many waves of characters ? Here you go about some unknown tactical terms what are supposed to be related to a simple cooldown witch prevents you from winning fights because you have more characters on worldmap , just what the fuck man. Some sort of cooldown is necessary or we will make this game retarded as requiem.
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So what you like many waves of characters ? Here you go about some unknown tactical terms what are supposed to be related to a simple cooldown witch prevents you from winning fights because you have more characters on worldmap , just what the fuck man.
Sigh.
Many waves of characters are and have always been the reality of this game whether I like them or not, that's besides the point. The thing is 120 seconds of cooldown are not going to fix this (600 could but hey, welcome to the world of proxies and ip-changes), because prepping a new wave takes about 3-4 minutes even when everyone can just relog to a character waiting over the town. If you consider the fact that most of the times when you reenter with reinforcements you still have some people who retreated from the map on hand your post just starts sounding ridiculously uneducated.
Here's a few things to take into account if we're going to discuss this thing properly:
- the numbers game depends more on players, and less on characters at our disposal 5 people with 500 characters are not going to beat 10 people with 10 characters ceteris paribus no matter how many times you run it
- moving alts over the town when there's no preset TC windows is a serious logistical issue and slows you down so much that any single-char crew is going to outmaneuver you without breaking a sweat
- spawntaxies allow for hasty reentries whether we have relogs or not
- spawns are located close to towns, people have bases on the same square anyway, so even w/o spawntaxies reentry is ridiculously fast
- morale is a serious limiting factor when it comes to the length of a PvP battle, a decisive victory will keep the other side from trying again whether they have available relogs or not; if it's a balanced battle, repeated engagements are not necessarily bad
- there've been ways to fast relog since 2009 and it hasn't been a serious issue, now the only thing that changed is the fact that you have to make a few clicks less and suddenly we're in the middle of an apocalypse? What happened?
The only thing that this cooldown would change is the removal of star trek teleportations (ie. spawning entire squads inside the town ready to rock and roll), but it's never been a real problem because logging off entire squads is a dangerous thing to do, it's not that easy to predict opponents exact position to make it efficient and even when you spawn right on top of them it's still a very risky thing to do... and let's face it, star trek attacks done right are hilarious and nobody ever complained about them too much anyway.
So yeah, this is basically a non-issue taken up by a non-PvP'er to make people she dislikes "suffer", which is doomed to fail because those things have been done to death by this point and they never work anyway.
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Many waves of characters are and have always been the reality of this game whether I like them or not, that's besides the point.
They weren't in previous session. I saw team-wide fast relog happening only once in the whole session. Majority of pvp gangs didn't simply bother to bypass the relog timer, they did pvp with what they had and regeared after dying.
Fact is that if nothing is done, the team with most waves wins so best start levelling your replicas.
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As to the whole alting and multilogging issue - it's the most efficient way to play this game and it's about the only way that keeps you occupied at all times, if you don't want that than the fault is with the game itself, not with the playerbase
Full-loot is preventing people from having fun at PvP. You should respawn with all your items intact and a bonus 100 ammo after 30 seconds from dying. And of course the respawn location should be selectable because players lose time travelling.
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They weren't in previous session. I saw team-wide fast relog happening only once in the whole session. Majority of pvp gangs didn't simply bother to bypass the relog timer, they did pvp with what they had and regeared after dying.
Fact is that if nothing is done, the team with most waves wins so best start levelling your replicas.
What's the difference between a 120 second regear occuring simultaneously with a 120 second scouting period and a 120 second scouting period after a char switch? Because I see none. And honestly, if you're saying that wave attacks didn't happen in the previous sessions I'm just at loss for words and you're either full of crap or have a severe case of sclerosis. I remember a BBS on VSB fight a session or two ago that lasted for 4 hours and was actually
because both sides did <60 second regears numerous times. Fast relogging doesn't hold any real advantage over that, short "cooldowns" don't do shit because they can be waited out while scouting happens, period.
Full-loot is preventing people from having fun at PvP. You should respawn with all your items intact and a bonus 100 ammo after 30 seconds from dying. And of course the respawn location should be selectable because players lose time travelling.
That's a nice strawman you have there, sadly that doesn't really relate to anything I've said. You're just trying to justify bad, boring gameplay with "but this game is based on putting effort into stuff, so obviously demanding meaningless effort must be good".
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What's the difference between a 120 second regear occuring simultaneously with a 120 second scouting period and a 120 second scouting period after a char switch? Because I see none. And honestly, if you're saying that wave attacks didn't happen in the previous sessions I'm just at loss for words and you're either full of crap or have a severe case of sclerosis. I remember a BBS on VSB fight a session or two ago that lasted for 4 hours and was actually
Didn't say wave attacks didn't happen, just said they didn't happen that often. Dude you weren't even that active in previous session.
VSB was pretty much completely inactive for the last year in last session and when they did play I don't remember them doing any mass scale fastrelogs. It's possible in the beginning of session because I didn't participate that.
Fact is: in last session the relog timer did keep wave fights at bay and pvp was fun. Only cheat that I saw used alot was proxy mercs, scouts and looters.
Fast relogging doesn't hold any real advantage over that, short "cooldowns" don't do shit because they can be waited out while scouting happens, period.
In places like gecko mine, new reno and basically anywhere where grid is close to action fast relogs have advantage when combat is on. In addition fast relogging when action is still going on is an obvious benefit due to fast reinforcements. In small scale fights an additional jump of single char can be decisive.
This all should be pretty obvious.
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Fact is that if nothing is done, the team with most waves wins so best start levelling your replicas.
Then do it, in order to achieve victory at all costs start exping 10 replicas of your pvp char. Oh wait, you've already started.
I don't care if they use 2 or 10 wave alts to fight, it's up to them if they want to die three times in order to win once :>
I doubt that many people will make dozens of characters and then place them all over worldmap just to win. I'd rather say it's a minority of such players. And such minority of players will bypass anything in order to win. 2-mins sleep time? Keep 3, 4 windows with characters logged in, on fast proxies, no problem bro.
Btw talking about being active in previous session, I haven't seen you much in the beginning of it, while I witnessed whole teams fast relogging many times. Stop being ridiculous.
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My whole thing is that fastlogging on to your pvp alt to kill someone that just killed you pve guy is not cool, its bullshit cheating, I dont really care about any other aspect other than the old timeout at least prevented the majority of players from cheating and fast relogging. there is no boon to pvp here, there is no good aspect of this. if your a cheater im sure youd be against modifying the relog so i cant really understand why people would want to keep it as is other than to abuse the game system.
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Dude, there are lots of people who aren't at all interested in pvp or looting your beyond repair leather jacket, they probably have more than one char and such timer would make nothing except piss them off.
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Dude, there are lots of people who aren't at all interested in pvp or looting your beyond repair leather jacket, they probably have more than one char and such timer would make nothing except piss them off.
2 minute timer that prevents fighting right after relog is going to piss them off? How often you go fighting anything inside 2 minutes of logging in if you're not combat fastrelogging?
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Dude, there are lots of people who aren't at all interested in pvp or looting your beyond repair leather jacket, they probably have more than one char and such timer would make nothing except piss them off.
heh okay, assume much? i was box hunting/nade gathering and i popped romanbellic whom i had a fair grenade fight with, less than 2 minutes later a nicobellic shows up in full pvp gear with cmbt armor and laser crits me, the obvious implication is that he rage fast relogged to get me cause his other guy couldnt in a fair fight. FAIR being the keyword here, in the wasteland you dont have a clone army at your disposal so its assinine to assume this is the way things should work. please dont assume that im some noob, ive been playing this game as long as you kilgore but im sure your ego doesnt let you see past your own nose.
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He could as well have second char logged in on some proxy and kill you the same way. "Sleepy-timer" wouldn't help at all, so why bother? And leave personal insults for yourself, thanks.
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And leave personal insults for yourself, thanks.
same goes for you, not everyone is a n00b and I'm not sure if you realize your being rude when you insinuate that "not everyone wants your beyond repair jacket". As if that was even the case, you assume something that wasnt true and made a baseless comment on it. However I have been around long enough to see what kind of player/person you are, so I feel comfortable stating such.
The bottom line is what your saying is they are going to cheat anyways so why make it harder? thats extremely pessimistic and extremely disheartining, of course we should make being a cheater harder, of course we should go after people who cheat in game and take away from the overall experience. There is no reason to condone fast relog, waiting 10 mintes doesnt ruin or break the game, it just balances it out for players that dont cheat, and if you want to cite proxy abusers as why it doesnt matter heres this, just because one person is such a loser that they cant play fonline with one character but need to proxy multiple doesnt mean everyone should. thats like saying because some guy murdered someone its ok for everyone else to murder someone, society doesnt let things like this stand and neither should you. take some goddamn pride in your fonline experience.
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He could as well have second char logged in on some proxy and kill you the same way. "Sleepy-timer" wouldn't help at all, so why bother? And leave personal insults for yourself, thanks.
He would have to camp on proxy all the time for this to be effective.
It's inconvenient and much easier to detect (dual logs are not allowed in PvP).
Even if it's proxy, when he is reported once his chars are in danger of being checked.
Also with fast relogs you can gather much bigger number of alts for combat.
In theory infinite, you need only one window.
It's not relog timeout, inconvenience would be barely noticeable but much, much
more effective for dealing with people abusing fast / dual logs than what was before.
BTW, I would also disable looting dead players first 120 seconds.
non-issue taken up by a non-PvP'er to make people she dislikes "suffer"
False + Ad hominem. It's not TV studio and you are not politician.
Please use rational arguments relevant to the suggestion.
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I don't see how anyone would benefit from this system at all. The people who want to cheat around this limitation WILL do so and the people playing the game "legally" will once again be screwed by being forced to play under arbitrary cooldowns, lessening the fun for everyone involved.
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False + Ad hominem. It's not TV studio and you are not politician.
Please use rational arguments relevant to the suggestion.
So you're a PvP player? Forgive me, I didn't know. Anyway, rational arguments were already presented, I'm curious why you did pick this little bit to reply to :>
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The people who want to cheat around this limitation WILL do so
The only way to cheat around this is to have all the combat alts logged in all the time.
You don't know when fight will start, you don't know when it will end.
I find unconvincing that the amount of fast relogs would simply be replaced by dual logs.
Also please provide examples how getting nerfed perception and strength and not being
able to loot player corpses for 120 seconds after login would be "being screwed".
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So having to wait 120 seconds to do certain actions when I just want to play after login is not a major stinky finger in a players face? What is the actual gameplay reason to get these nerfed stats, what have I, as the player done to get enforced with such shitty restrictions when I just want to play?
And you should know better from your experience that no matter what restriction you lay upon players, there will always be people trying to sneak around these restrictions. There will be people abusing it with dual logs, or they will just leave the game because of such restrictions - such stuff should always raise the fun, not making it even more a pain in the ass for everyone. Your intention for the suggestion is noble, but adding just another cooldown is just not good, in my humble opinion.
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Many waves of characters are and have always been the reality of this game whether I like them or not, that's besides the point.
No your missing the point , as well kilgore. One of the reasons why jovanka suggested this is to limit the fast relog for PvP purposes. Previous session there was a 3 minute cooldown on reloging and there were no second waves or something like that , your walls of text are quite obsolete.
He could as well have second char logged in on some proxy and kill you the same way. "Sleepy-timer" wouldn't help at all, so why bother? And leave personal insults for yourself, thanks.
Could , but will he ? Look at the previous season , did we see logged in characters on proxies ? No we didn't.
This attitude that if someone wants to cheat will do it is no viable argument to not implement a feature , just ridiculous.
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I don't see how anyone would benefit from this system at all. The people who want to cheat around this limitation WILL do so and the people playing the game "legally" will once again be screwed by being forced to play under arbitrary cooldowns, lessening the fun for everyone involved.
Not true, what you need are more active gm's with a willingness to catch the people in the act. If you keep on enforcing it the number of people doing so will dwindle and eventually people may even start to not accept it as normal behavior because honestly it isnt. Cool downs are a concept, while you may not like that concept it does not change the fact that something is still wrong. There needs to be a remedy to this situation, all im asking is that some form of action be taken, sometimes i feel that you dont take your players very seriously although it would be hard to when everyone is abusing a game you enjoy and moderate around you.
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Not true, what you need are more active gm's with a willingness to catch the people in the act.
Fighting against windmills it is rather. There will always be people slipping through, even if you find some people who are willing to overwatch the game to catch cheaters. This suggestion here would bring even more need for GMs who then have to watch the game all the time for cheaters, in unpaid, boring work, while they could actually do something interesting instead in this time.
"Catching" dual loggers is also not always that easy (except the player is really dumb and names his characters "Asd1" "Asd2" and they are caught in the act.
If you keep on enforcing it the number of people doing so will dwindle and eventually people may even start to not accept it as normal behavior because honestly it isnt.
That's what you think, the reality (and experience) is that the only number which will dwindle is the actual number of active players.
Cool downs are a concept, while you may not like that concept it does not change the fact that something is still wrong. There needs to be a remedy to this situation, all im asking is that some form of action be taken, sometimes i feel that you dont take your players very seriously although it would be hard to when everyone is abusing a game you enjoy and moderate around you.
There is no denying that something is wrong, I agree. But enforcing just another restriction is not the way to go.
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Then what do you suggest?
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Previous session there was a 3 minute cooldown on reloging and there were no second waves or something like that , your walls of text are quite obsolete.
It's always been 3 minutes which could be and often was avoided and there were a lot of second, third, fourth and fifth waves in every effin' session (I know because I used to have a network of parking lots to travel from spawn and gear up in about 30s., that'd actually make me faster than charswitching dudes if Jovanka's bad suggestion ever got implemented), the only thing that changed is perhaps the arrival speed which is faster right now by about a minute or two, which is negated by the need to scout anyway.
Not true, what you need are more active gm's with a willingness to catch the people in the act. If you keep on enforcing it the number of people doing so will dwindle and eventually people may even start to not accept it as normal behavior because honestly it isnt. Cool downs are a concept, while you may not like that concept it does not change the fact that something is still wrong. There needs to be a remedy to this situation, all im asking is that some form of action be taken, sometimes i feel that you dont take your players very seriously although it would be hard to when everyone is abusing a game you enjoy and moderate around you.
The thing is you people are proving again and again that you are not to be taken seriously. The game's been on with the new settings for about a month, and you guys are already bitching about this and that being imbalanced or unfair. Why don't you just try to learn the game as it is instead? Knee-jerk reaction based solutions like this one are not going to refine gameplay, they're going to mess it up yet again. I've lost track how many TC overworks and weapon balance overworks this server has seen because the devs followed some random forum bitching without letting the game mature.
To drive my point further home - imagine if other games were treated this way by their devs. What would Street Fighter community look like if every patch/release characters were getting a new special and totally different framedata? Where would StarCraft community be if every patch units had up to ~200% HP and dmg fluctuations and randomly gained and lost special properties like cloak etc? And, more importantly, how many people would be playing these games? How the hell is 2238 PvP ever supposed to get any real depth that isn't based on exploits, when you guys are constantly meddling with the settings, often going from one extreme to another? Removing cooldowns on relogs seemed to be a conscious design decision based on 3 years of experience, let it play out for a moment, thank you.
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It's always been 3 minutes which could be and often was avoided and there were a lot of second, third, fourth and fifth waves in every effin' session ...
That's different , i'm talking about preparing 3 ready characters on worldmap , not some worthless car network. That upon one death the player just relogs to another character in 15 seconds and is ready to fight again and when a faction with 15 guys does it , do you really think you have any chance or anyone else has a chance to fight something like that , if only you and your team has more characters. That is just degrading , if to do this takes whatsover no effort at all , it will become a habbit for a lot of players it wasn't in previous season , sure sometimes there would be someone who would occasionally bypass that , but nothing game breaking.
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That's different , i'm talking about preparing 3 ready characters on worldmap , not some worthless car network. That upon one death the player just relogs to another character in 15 seconds and is ready to fight again and when a faction with 15 guys does it , do you really think you have any chance or anyone else has a chance to fight something like that , if only you and your team has more characters. That is just degrading , if to do this takes whatsover no effort at all , it will become a habbit it wasn't in previous season , sure sometimes there would be someone who would occasionally bypass that , but nothing game breaking.
I'm amazed by your clairvoyance as to defining gamebreaking tactics after a month-long session, especially considering the impending TC overwhaul. I'm also amazed by your lack of understanding of even basic maths (30 is 6 times less than 180, so it's actually far from worthless)... actually I'm so amazed that I'm not going to reply to any more of your BS, because you're not making any sense at all and all your responses are based on emotions and negative ones at that.
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"How the hell is 2238 PvP ever supposed to get any real depth that isn't based on exploits"
Think about that... you just basically admitted to what the problem is, pvp exploiting. this is what they're trying to fix because the current system allows for it.
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"How the hell is 2238 PvP ever supposed to get any real depth that isn't based on exploits"
Think about that... you just basically admitted to what the problem is, pvp exploiting. this is what they're trying to fix because the current system allows for it.
Fast relogging is an exploit in the same way a 5pool rush is in StarCraft. It's something existing within the framework of the game and it causes butthurt. An example of an exploit would be infinite grenades or positioning yourself in a place where people can't shoot at you due to scrolling issues.
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I'm amazed by your clairvoyance as to defining gamebreaking tactics after a month-long session, especially considering the impending TC overwhaul. I'm also amazed by your lack of understanding ...
It's simply you don't have much to tell me anything just simple , rudimentary insults , how childish ... talking about emotions.
Here's how i imagine you.
(http://s11.postimage.org/z7aw17hyn/Rage.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/z7aw17hyn/)
Fast relogging is an exploit in the same way a 5pool rush is in StarCraft. It's something existing within the framework of the game and it causes butthurt. An example of an exploit would be infinite grenades or positioning yourself in a place where people can't shoot at you due to scrolling issues.
Tell me please again , i just missed your whole point your talking too much in the wrong direction i lost myself sorry , so what do you don't like about this feature ? Can you just sum up your thoughts ?
this is what they're trying to fix because the current system allows for it.
I agree on this , before change there was no problem with those 3 minutes everyone just got used to the cooldown , but now every large fights i gather 3-4 characters on world map and when i'm forced to enter with one of the last characters it makes me feel the fight was degrading , sooner or later everyone else will have to adjust to that , will become a habbit and the fights will .... well just who has the most meat to throw out. I'm not quite sure what nice boat is arguing about , maybe he likes requiem kind of style play , but this is not requiem.
Now he most probably is going to tell me how narrow-minded and bla bla bla , but face it boat your bad at presenting your point of view , too chaotic.
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i like fast logger for 1 thing. crafting. no need to wait 10 min anymore just to craft 1 thing. that was a waste of time. but for pvp its terriable. like triple said..... he has 3-4 alts owm i fought them all couple times and let me say its annoying as all fuck. makes winning in a battle hard and when you do win it was not even fun because you are stressed out the whole battle with no time to loot and no time to prepare just wave after wave after wave.
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Previous session there was a 3 minute cooldown on reloging and there were no second waves or something like that , your walls of text are quite obsolete.
Dunno how long you are playing this game dude (probably not even from the start of previous session), but there of course WERE second waves of whole teams entering the battle not after 3minutes of relog cooldown, but after 30 seconds. The fact that you didn't witness it doesn't mean there was no such thing, stop being ignorant. There were even nice message logs from Solar airstriking them on one occasion he caught them.
Here's how i imagine you.
Erm, weren't you the one that wanted to "destroy verbally someone" on forums? Lol, dude.
Btw:
but now every large fights i gather 3-4 characters on world map and when i'm forced to enter with one of the last characters it makes me feel the fight was degrading
Gg, I admire you. Now, seriously: nobody forces you to use any additional characters. Absolutely nothing happens if you lose in a computer game while playing fair.
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That's a nice strawman you have there, sadly that doesn't really relate to anything I've said. You're just trying to justify bad, boring gameplay with "but this game is based on putting effort into stuff, so obviously demanding meaningless effort must be good".
I'm not justifying anything. It's a honest suggestion. If you want the game to be more fun, why not remove the major problems that force people to create multiple PvP characters? Just make respawning take 30 seconds so that the player gets punished a bit and that's it. No item loss. No map travel. Bonus ammo too, because it's more FUN. Why should it not be this way if you want the game to be fun?
Such stuff should always raise the fun, not making it even more a pain in the ass for everyone. Your intention for the suggestion is noble, but adding just another cooldown is just not good, in my humble opinion.
I then suggest, if you want to raise the fun, that the only solution to remove alts is to never lose items. This is not a fun element, this is the reason people switch characters, this is why people complain about crafting, this is why people make crafting alts. Just make this into a TPP quake game and everybody will be happy, right? This raises the fun for players.
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OP defiantly needs to be implemented. This fast-relog thing is really starting to get on my nerves and I don't even PvP.
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Why BenK? If you don't PvP, then how does FR even effect you at all?
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The stated example in the New Reno PvP post, was I have entered New Reno with my cadre of mercs, ready to do no more than trade. A man appears and invariably start shooting. After an intense struggle (my mercs not me, I have 0% combat :P), our enemy lies dead. I should be able to peacefully trade and GTFO, but no, someone with a fraction of a name-change pops in ten seconds later for another bout. I barely defeat him. Oh, now there's another! This one has a symbol and the exact same name. He kills me and my sales run is for naught, the bodyguards I bought are for naught, and the game is broken for me..
If I've beaten the bastard, I should be able to continue on my way, not be assailed by the same person four times in 30 seconds.
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Okay. But BenK, you and i are both miners and workers. We both fight too and i'm sure you're as willing to do more PvP just like i am. So people like you and me typically all like Fast Relog. We want it to stay! When you get PK'd in a mine, at least you have the option to switch quickly to a fighter and go deal some justice. FR is our friend.
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No its not. I don't care if I get legitimately PKed in an unguarded town or mine. Sure, that's fine, he can have my stuff, he beat me fair and square. I can wait one minute, and I'll take whatever spawn area, and I'll move on.
It was likely this revenge shtick that started the whole, FR-altswarm shit in the first place.
Fast-relog is an exploit that should be returned to a bannable offence. I totally understand why its almost impossible to track, so the "Sleepy Character" is a perfect fix in my opinion.
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Ugh. Dude you have this all wrong (again). Fast Relog means simply you don't have to wait 3 minutes when you log out of one guy and want to switch to another. It's not an exploit. It's the developers dropping an irritant from last season. They used that delay to catch people multi-logging, which is an exploit. The fact they dropped the delay was not the addition of an exploit; it was simply the removal of an irritation that caused delays for all players. We players gave it a name: Fast Relog. It really should be called "No More Login Delay".
So it's not an exploit. Nor do i use it as an exploit. I use it to find blueprints solo. I use it to help people buy bases when there's not enough friends online atm. I can also use it to deal justice (not revenge) to a PK whose over-brutal play style suppresses the game.
If you want to put this in terms of "fair and square" though, then apply it equally to the Reno example and what do you get? That guy got killed "fair and square" and he should move on (or switch to a fighter and go deal some justice maybe himself). Just moving on and not fighting tyranny is the lazy way.
Also for the record: seeking justice or revenge either one, is NOT how the alt-swarm thing started. The alt-swarm thing started when PvP "apes" realized how not having the login delay changed things: they could more quickly return to a battle and thus extend the battle and get more game play out of their PvP sessions. It works fine for some apes, but other apes hate it.
But like i said, you and i haven't spent much time in that arena yet, so the PvP side of this argument is not even our turf [yet]. For any miner, FR is a good thing that gives an option we did not have last season.
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My biggest point is, you don't need alts to solo anything. Just build a good character.
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Ugh. Dude you have this all wrong (again). Fast Relog means simply you don't have to wait 3 minutes when you log out of one guy and want to switch to another
And my idea wouldn't prevent you from switching from one character to another. Just not for the purpose of pwning a character who 10 seconds earlier won a fair fight against you.
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Okay i see the idea has changed a bit. It's that "who 10 seconds earlier won a fair fight against you" part on which i will now focus..
The Level 24 energy sniper who melted my naked blue Level 3 miner into goo with one shot and no warning while i worked...did he just beat me in a fair fight? No and i should be able to get him and deal some justice. I believe your idea, even updated, would prevent me from dealing that justice. Am i wrong when i say the miner-hating murderers could once again get away with it over and over like last year?
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...did he just beat me in a fair fight?
Yes he did. Your bad for being in an unguarded mine, with a level 3 no less, with no mercs.
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No he did not beat me in a fair fight. LoL! He beat me, but it was certainly not a fair fight. And it was dishonorable. Just think about it: you have a fully leveled fighter and you want to use him for his intended purpose. So you find a gang and get into TC. Your opponents are also there to TC, so it's honorable. Or you solo in New Reno against other fighters. Once again your enemies are brutal, but you're there to PvP so it's honorable. Or you go to Hinkley where fighters gather to fight honorably.
But if you're a reckless brutal meanihead, you hunt a brand new guy who has no weapon or any weapon skill yet. He's working hard to craft stuff that you might be able to buy. He could use your advice about the game and some help getting started. He finally got a hammer and he's so excited to find the mine! He has no expectation of a fight with you since he's clearly minding his own business mining. And...you murder him. You shoot him in the back with a plasma rifle and he melts into goo. No warning. No challenge. No xp earned. You were just bored and you have no sense of fairness or honor. You simply don't care if new players quit and you're too stupid to make the connection between unchecked tyranny, people quitting, and donation money going with them. You don't connect the dots because, in my example, you're a heartless, mindless, immature thug who just cannot cut it in a real PvP fight. Your victims wonder if there are any fair fights in the game because that one certainly wasn't one.
But BenK, i'm glad you're not like that. I bet you're one of the nicer guys here. I think i can tell. But you need to not react first - just think and wait to reply. Connect those dots above. Because you're arguing on the wrong side!
PS: nothing wrong with mining HQ, and nothing wrong with a level 3 miner, and it would be weird to mine with a team of mercs. More weird ideas from BenK, one of the nicest guys here.
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I take my Mercs everywere...
Never know when a guy if going to burst you in a guarded town. He's going to die anyway, I just like to fuel the fire.
Sure, when I started, I met way to many of these people. PvP ape wannabes that were just bored so they hunted some blues. But I'm most certainly not on "the wrong side". I just don't do alts. I think having ten toons is a ridiculous waste of time, and this feature would make alting less of a "necessity".
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I think the game shouldnt prevent gamers from playing!
Seems everbody is bored of waiting for something in this game...
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There is not such thing like alting! Only in poor countires poland more people share one computer.