fodev.net

Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 04:05:10 pm

Title: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 04:05:10 pm
I will cut corners as much as I can, no fancy, long introduction just straight to the point in first large paragraph, explanations only optional. Please, it is strongly advised you take full consideration of the issue before giving your voice or voting and even find alternative sources of information if you think you lack insight on the problem.

The idling timer once you enter the game first time is unnecessary and ineffective for the purpose it was made.

I don't think any part of the game should be restricted to the player once he starts off the game the very first time in the day. The thing that spoils fun for me that I feel like it is some sort chore to wait out this idling timer, when it comes Town Control, or even smaller fights it is very frustrating as it is only additional time you have to waste until you are able to fully use your character. In practice it is quite a lot of time to organize players for any kind of activity, no matter what you do, so I see this initial Idling timer flawed and just a mere annoyance that could be removed for our well being.

If you agree then you don't need to read any further, if you don't then there might be something that could sway your opinion, so please be open minded, respect others and be objective. Thank you.

The purpose of the initial idling timer can vary depending on point of view and it can be incorrect, but that is besides the point, because we need to look at it how it will affect the whole system integrity when it comes to clean combat, our relative opinion is a lot less worth. So, let us look at something solid.

Upon entering the game the idling timer was meant to prevent some sort of waves, if the player character would use a proxy, in simple words another address to fool the system. So that the player couldn't take advantage of it because the idling timer would apply to any address at all times, rendering the character useless. The thing, the purpose for the timer is flawed because, even so such abuse is highly unlikely because ...

The best thing a cheater can do now is to keep multilogs hidden somewhere in unguarded
locations, which I don't think is very effective except for sneakers.

Doesn't matter where, world map or unguarded location, proxies tend to have massive latency and generally unpractical to use, maybe only for sneakers and then it would render your ability to play normally without unexpected disturbances, lags, disconnections etc. etc. what is the main purpose why proxies cannot be used for waves. Currently the idling timer for a cheater is just the same inconvenience as for a clean player, but he doesn't need to keep them on world map.

And yes they currently can keep them in unguarded locations and if someone really wants to cheat, he will cheat as there always is some percent, it is up to each individual to make piece with that for the greater well being of all other players. I know that is a bold statement, but some truth it holds.

If someone thinks otherwise and there will be much abuse or something like that, well then.

I will believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 04:28:55 pm
You really mastered making little point in lots of words...

Quote
Upon entering the game the idling timer was meant to prevent some sort of waves, if the player character would use a proxy

Wrong, it was supposed to prevent fast relogging in PvP, period. You can scrap whole proxy from your arguments, because nobody will sit in game all day long and catch normal non-proxy fast reloggers. Even if there were people to do it, it's impossible to catch fast reloggers because... durr, one character is off, and how you want to prove anything now? Who will observe these characters if they were really supposed to PvP or not? You have 180 seconds to react before [off] alt is gone. Or there would be lots of false positives and lots of butthurt on the forum "why my brother was banned".

So you can go back to drawing board.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: davrot on February 18, 2013, 04:34:41 pm
Current system is just fine, obviously some players need more time to kick their fast relog addiction.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: avv on February 18, 2013, 04:34:54 pm
You may have a point that it's unfair that a guy who just enters the game for first time of the day is punished, but how often you start fighting immediately after logging in the game, without knowing where enemies are and how many they are?
I believe most players suffer because they are doing something else when the call for action comes. Someone else had scouted the enemy and informs his team about them. Rest of the team has been in a standby mode all the time but they aren't ingame or are using some other character. Being in a state of readiness whilst having one's character safe is what the idle timer tries to punish. So if there was no initial idle timer, a team could just log their characters on wm whilst drugged and avoid the forced encounters, while one of their guys is scouting and tells when to login and spawn.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 04:35:55 pm
You really mastered making little point in lots of words...

I might put a lot of words into a little point, if you only see the tip of the iceberg.

I don't write anything without a purpose, some day you will have to understand that.

Wrong, it was supposed to prevent fast relogging in PvP, period. You can scrap whole proxy from your arguments, because nobody will sit in game all day long and catch normal non-proxy fast reloggers. Even if there were people to do it, it's impossible to catch fast reloggers because... durr, one character is off, and how you want to prove anything now? Who will observe these characters if they were really supposed to PvP or not? You 180 seconds to react before [off] alt is gone. Or there would be lots of false positives and lots of butthurt on the forum "why my brother was banned".

So you can go back to drawing board.

No need, I think you need re-think something.

The system already gives you an automatic idling timer when logging/re-logging while you have another character logging/logged/logging off from another client on the same IP or the same client, or if it is not that case, it should have been made that way, that you couldn't avoid idling timer by re-logging if your IP address was active in the last 3 minutes while the character is logging off. So we don't have to wait for the initial idling timer.

I know something about scripting at this point and it seems like another simple artificial CD on 1 variable.

So why is this initial idling timer here?

Proxy issue is on point, besides that I think many players would bring up this issue otherwise.

I really thought you were on point about all of this. That is why I wrote so much.

I will say it again, because maybe you misunderstood. If there is ONLY ONE character in game with YOUR IP
and the IP of the character didn't change, you will not get the 2.5 minute Idling Timer if you logoff for a second.

Unless you were lying about this.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Brujah on February 18, 2013, 05:05:35 pm
Regarding the two lines of T-888's post I've read: Your internet must run on coal if one proxy is enough to make you lag and reduce your PING that badly, the biggest lag problem in FOnline is for players away from Europe, the server itself is usually only shitty enough to give you some brief lags.



Regarding everything else:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GgflscOmW8
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 05:09:31 pm
I have better internet connection than many people here combined, my country has like the third fastest internet in the world on average and I have a very, very good internet based on the average of my country.

I know what I am talking about, proxies are useless for such activities, there is not issue about how many proxies you use. One is enough for the whole client to run on 300-500MS on average what I have observed, the client you are on with the proxy, that is what matters.

Besides jovanka seems like has hit a wall of the system, because I found a hole in it. Read my previous post.

Nothing wrong with that, we all make mistakes and were here to test the game. Some better than others.

Current system is just fine, obviously some players need more time to kick their fast relog addiction.

Hehe, you don't understand the system and you vote. Besides all my encouragement to fully understand the issue. ;D
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 05:23:24 pm
Your whole argument is "proxies are useless so no need to worry about them".

But this is not true.

The thing is, I managed to ban one proxy in FOnline over the years but I'm quite sure there
was many more of them. It's just in this case I was lucky enough that I knew characters of
the proxy player, so I was sure it was a proxy. So I summoned him for testing.

The problem with proxies is that it's hard to tell if they are used or not. So better to have
a system where they can't be used efficiently. If proxy was the only way to make waves
of alts, that's exactly what would happen I'm afraid. Remember you would only need one
proxy at a time.

And I still don't think that having an alt over town logged off (therefore safe), waiting for
attack for hours or days - anytime - is that great. It's basically playing without playing.
You are ready to kill someone inside without being in the game.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 05:45:18 pm
Now we are talking, good.

So better to have a system where they can't be used efficiently.

This is at the cost of this whole waiting, organization problem with the initial idling timer, it is just a mere annoyance and it is the same for cheaters as they can still cheat if they want. I'm sorry, but your statement is bold, it has a point, but how many players clean players will have to play with with it and they can't avoid that, just to prevent an annoyance for the cheaters because fact is they can still cheat effectively and avoid current system? What is effective for you in this context? Players will get used to just about anything, but the thing is proxies really haven't ever effectively been used for waves, not ever in such a scale it was before and not ever it had such a huge impact and not ever it forced the whole server to follow the same play style in order to enjoy the game. Those are facts, real hard ones.

To be honest, our faction already encountered some opposing Russian gang that used second waves somehow against us in New Reno. Doesn't matter, you couldn't catch proxy cheaters before and you still can't, so ...

please, remove this annoyance as it doesn't serve any good purpose, it will not impact the game play on any large scale. If you still aren't sure, remember your own words what you should take in consideration before setting a conclusion.

I will believe it when I see it.

You are ready to kill someone inside without being in the game.

Players have farmed equipment, leveled up characters, made bases, buy cars, made taxi in order to sit extra time on world map? Players have to do it enough already, to just get ready and wait for their friends to join.

Nothing happens in without time, I'm sorry I'm starting to think you have no feel for time. It is here, it exists and it is fluid.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 05:52:20 pm
But you can play right away after logging, you just can't enter already existing combat zone for 150 seconds.
If you really hate it that much, start TC timer in another town and wait for the other team.

PvP players brought this system upon themselves by abusing alts in PvP to the point of hillbilly ridiculousness.

Now you can't abuse PvP alts. You can't jump at someone in the first 150 seconds of play. I think it's good.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 06:06:19 pm
But you can play right away after logging, you just can't enter already existing combat zone for 150 seconds.
If you really hate it that much, start TC timer in another town and wait for the other team.

No I can't play, because it is the only reason I log into this game and so as many other players and all players that have voted positively to this suggestion will agree based on other point of views, so as I can have other one's you should respect just like me and everyone else, you are no different and were asking you to come forward at least one time. Ye, sure make own timer each time when you are the one to enter the city, brilliant solution.

Your ignoring points again, players have to idle somewhere, wait till players get ready for some action, to organize, to wake people up, it all takes time and in practice this idle timer burdens with unnecessary amount of time we have to wait till we can play together, waiting out individual player idling timers till we can even enter city together, it is ridiculous. That time stacks up as individual players joins the game, for example, while we are waiting for enough players to just wake up so that we can have enough players to engage the enemy. I am not the only one who speaks the same point of view, put a fucking face on the players, were not some carpet, neither do I.

PvP players brought this system upon themselves by abusing alts in PvP to the point of hillbilly ridiculousness.

We didn't ask exactly for this. This initial idling timer is again some shady feature that isn't necessary, nobody wanted this, you made the decision in your circle of developers, what about us?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: LittleBoy on February 18, 2013, 06:11:24 pm
Now you can't abuse PvP alts. You can't jump at someone in the first 150 seconds of play. I think it's good.
There are two things , one is idling time and one is Predator mod over WM. They are good , but not together .

Sometimes take all developers and make TC in city then write what is good...
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 06:17:53 pm
There is basically a butthurt of people who have lots of useless PvP alts now and all they expect
from the game is login, click town in 0s and shoot whatever is inside. I have idea for you: logoff
over Hinkley. Maybe casuals will take over towns and won't be so butthurt about idling :D
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 06:23:16 pm
I don't give a fuck about alts, I don't want to use alts and I'm happy that I don't have bring at least five of them each time I want to enjoy some fight and I'm pretty sure that goes for quite a lot of players. Besides that I never ever have leveled an alt in purpose to do FR PvP, I would have the same amount of alts without it or with it, because I'm simply interested in as much variety 2238 combat provides.

No idea what you are talking about, current system can work for it's purpose without the initial idling timer, just so as re-logging gives it and so prevents FR. I really don't understand what is wrong with you? Why can't you reason?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: avv on February 18, 2013, 06:26:46 pm
No I can't play, because it is the only reason I log into this game and so as many other players and all players that have voted positively to this suggestion will agree based on other point of views, so as I can have other one's you should respect just like me and everyone else, you are no different and were asking you to come forward at least one time. Ye, sure make own timer each time when you are the one to enter the city, brilliant solution.

Personally I voted the wrong option because it was unclear which one supported and which one was against your proposal :>

But honestly how does the idle timer prevent you from attacking a tc team for example? Few minutes is enough to rally your team, then 2 minutes of waiting for idle to finish and you still have time to enter and attack. Ofcourse you can't scout the enemy as effectively as you used to or kill their frontier scouts as before, but that's the penalty for being the attacking team. There's finally some struggle for the attacker.

For example yesterday our alliance with a team of over 12 guys managed to log in, move over den and perform an attack inside 10 minutes no problem and I consider us less organized than TNB when it comes to teamwork.

Want action without restrains? Be the first team inside.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: LittleBoy on February 18, 2013, 06:28:13 pm
There is basically a butthurt of people who have lots of useless PvP alts now and all they expect
from the game is login, click town in 0s and shoot whatever is inside. I have idea for you: logoff
over Hinkley. Maybe casuals will take towns and won't be so butthurt about idling :D
Yes you are right devs wait when fast relog are broken ,then we all make new characters because without them this game was unplayable . Now all have useless characters and you laugh!


I like idea with one character , i hate fast relog but this is miss shoot!  ..
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 06:29:32 pm
There is 2-3x less alts in the game and what appears to be finally a fair PvP to me without alt abuse so the system works.

Personally I voted the wrong option because it was unclear which one supported and which one was against your proposal :>

The poll is very confusing. Personally I thought that the question is about idling in general.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 06:35:41 pm
...

It's not about organization, people get used to it or at least will, but it doesn't make it less true that such an annoyance could be relaxed.

Don't miss the point please, this system is obviously a great improvement in multiple aspects with its own flaws.

There is 2-3x less alts in the game and what appears to be finally a fair PvP to me without alt abuse so the system works.

So?

What does this have to do with the initial idling timer? Or you don't understand that it can work perfectly without it?

The idling timer once you enter the game first time is unnecessary and ineffective for the purpose it was made.
The poll is very confusing. Personally I thought that the question is about idling in general.

Are you fucking kidding me? I made it crystal clear how to understand the basics of the topic, it is not my problem you had a hard time to understand your own system and I had to show the details for you.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 06:37:59 pm
What does this have to do with the initial idling timer? Or you don't understand that it can work perfectly without it?

I think I explained that it can be circumvented by logging off and logging on proxy client,
which is probably what teams full of cheaters like yours would do. The only difference to
what was before is that it would be nearly impossible to catch and ban you, because GM
would have 180 seconds do detect and ban a proxy fast relog (and no GM will do it).
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: davrot on February 18, 2013, 07:00:07 pm
Hehe, you don't understand the system and you vote. Besides all my encouragement to fully understand the issue. ;D
Your blathering is not a sufficient encouragement to understand an issue that quite frankly doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Sarakin on February 18, 2013, 07:15:38 pm
Very misleading poll and suggestion, at first I thought it was about YES or NO for current Idling system, only after thorough reading I figured its about removing it.

Its fine as it is, I wish votes could be removed and put elsewhere.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Hololasima on February 18, 2013, 07:22:36 pm
There are two things , one is idling time and one is Predator mod over WM. They are good , but not together .

Sometimes take all developers and make TC in city then write what is good...

Where is problem to stay in town instead of WM? Noone force you to stay safely on WM and check preview every two seconds. Go to town, hide 20 people in some building and there you go.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Kelin on February 18, 2013, 08:00:50 pm
Go to town, hide 20 people in some building and there you go.
...and enemy sneaker tells his team to strike idlers immediatelly so they cannot defend themselves. I was already thinking about this, but there is this issue. You can see it in Reno, waiting in town drives away your attention and you are vulnerable to external attacks while not available to strike back :/
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 08:11:35 pm
About entering nobody forces you to enter with the grid nearest to the enemy and rush at them like madmen.
In redding you could enter in the north and prepare attack already in town. I'm not saying with 2.5min idlers
but if someone will get into encounter or will have a few seconds left it shouldn't be much problem then.

Players still rush like they had some alt waves to spare although they don't :P
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: avv on February 18, 2013, 08:11:57 pm
...and enemy sneaker tells his team to strike idlers immediatelly so they cannot defend themselves. I was already thinking about this, but there is this issue. You can see it in Reno, waiting in town drives away your attention and you are vulnerable to external attacks while not available to strike back :/

Issue is that scouting is free.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Termap on February 18, 2013, 08:13:48 pm
If you dont want to stay on the world map, or check regulary overview everytime. What about make something like this: 

Create invisible and inaccessible areas (number of areas = number of previous spawns in each city with limited dimensions) instead of each spawn. Also cancel overview from the world map. You can get inside an area over the world map, but is not possible to check your enemies  from the world map. Where players from team B (Which are attacking) are not seen inside an area and at the same time Players from team A (which are taking city) are not also seen out from the area and cannot get inside as player A, something like force fields. You can just go out from the area as player B, which is waiting for his team mates (regroup). I guess it solves preparations of people in iddling time.

Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 18, 2013, 08:49:17 pm
Are you fucking kidding me? I made it crystal clear how to understand the basics of the topic, it is not my problem you had a hard time to understand your own system and I had to show the details for you.
"I saw a pie in the sky"
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: LittleBoy on February 18, 2013, 10:30:55 pm
Where is problem to stay in town instead of WM? Noone force you to stay safely on WM and check preview every two seconds. Go to town, hide 20 people in some building and there you go.
;D hide 20players , its imposible man . Maps are too small . Also enemies camp spawns with sneakers , imposible solution.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 11:20:44 pm
"I saw a pie in the sky"

:)

Your blathering is not a sufficient encouragement to understand an issue that quite frankly doesn't exist.

It does exist, you might not feel it as your not a faction player and you might not be experienced enough concerning this matter either.

I asked simple basic, respect concerning this subject, it seems you fail to deliver that, so be it and don't waste space or your time then.

I think I explained that it can be circumvented by logging off and logging on proxy client,
which is probably what teams full of cheaters like yours would do.

I'd like to talk to a more neutral developer in case, sadly I think such luxury won't be provided so as any improvement for the idling system unless you can focus and think objective.

Look, I may have fancy way of words and large texts of wall, but I don't ever lie. Sure, our faction use a proxy or two literally when it comes to some action, but no other teams are angels either. That is simply the game that holds such flaws, not the player, so don't blame us as it won't provide you with appropriate excuse.

The only difference to what was before is that it would be nearly impossible to catch and ban you, because GM
would have 180 seconds do detect and ban a proxy fast relog (and no GM will do it).
The thing is, I managed to ban one proxy in FOnline over the years but I'm quite sure there
was many more of them.

Please, do tell me what is the difference between now and how it would be after the suggestion in place, hmm?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Glumer on February 18, 2013, 11:41:01 pm
You entering to city for fight or not? So where is problem? We took Redding in 11 people without sneaker. BBS attacked us, TNB attacked us and we dont care about fast relog so whats your problem guys, why you only whinning?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 18, 2013, 11:48:27 pm
You entering to city for fight or not? So where is problem? We took Redding in 11 people without sneaker. BBS attacked us, TNB attacked us and we dont care about fast relog so whats your problem guys, why you only whinning?

That is a very poor point of view.

Eh ... and again ...

It's not about organization, people get used to it or at least will, but it doesn't make it less true that such an annoyance could be relaxed.

Don't miss the point please, this system is obviously a great improvement in multiple aspects with its own flaws.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 18, 2013, 11:54:57 pm
Please, do tell me what is the difference between now and how it would be after the suggestion in place, hmm?

The difference is you could have proxy windows with alts in main menu and login after you die for next wave.
Or not even window, just close FOnline, switch proxy setting and enter on another alt. It can be easily automated
with a cheat. Right now you can't do this, well you could try some tricks but they would be very inconvenient
and prone to a fail.

There is no reason to leave a loophole for cheaters.

Beside I think no jumping into existing combat 150s after login is actually good for gameplay.
You can't simply call your numerous friends through mumble to squash people with whom you just lost,
unless they actually are playing the game on PvP characters.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Brujah on February 19, 2013, 12:11:06 am
Guys... I finally saw it, it was beautiful!


There were many of us, we all gathered around to watch the show, they danced around us before moving into the immense blue oblivion, almost like they were preparing to wear all that blue in such a "blue world", they danced around us for a few minutes before finally vanishing, by the point they started flying it took around 20 seconds for each to disappear in such beautiful and majestic way we've never seen before, it was like many happy and satisfied peasants riding their white pegasus towards a blue carnival...


Some even tried coming back, but they knew they couldn't stay idle, they HAD to go and wear all that blue proudly, they wouldn't accept such blasphemy as staying still, such beautiful creatures were made to fly, be free and procriate,


It lasted for a few minutes, waves of them came in short intervals of around 3-5 minutes before effortlessy diving right back into the Blue Universe only they know so well, I even took a screenshot of the beautiful creatures flying towards The Blue again:

Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 12:34:23 am
The difference is now it is no different than finding proxies for each client, because players can still manage to multitask a window or two in order to cheat in nearby location of each town, honestly it is not hard, you just go into empty encounter and just re-enter in short period of time while fighting, totally manageable.

Not sure how proxies will change that, I don't how we went from.

Doesn't matter where, world map or unguarded location, proxies tend to have massive latency and generally unpractical to use, maybe only for sneakers and then it would render your ability to play normally without unexpected disturbances, lags, disconnections etc. etc. what is the main purpose why proxies cannot be used for waves. Currently the idling timer for a cheater is just the same inconvenience as for a clean player, but he doesn't need to keep them on world map.
The best thing a cheater can do now is to keep multilogs hidden somewhere in unguarded
locations, which I don't think is very effective except for sneakers.
The difference is you could have proxy windows with alts in main menu and login after you die for next wave.

Tell me do you see any point here? If not I have still multiple approaches on this subject, I just don't a big wall of text again so other players on the forum have an easier time comprehending.

Or not even window, just close FOnline, switch proxy setting and enter on another alt. It can be easily automated
with a cheat. Right now you can't do this, well you could try some tricks but they would be very inconvenient
and prone to a fail.

There is no reason to leave a loophole for cheaters.

What are you talking about, if it is a proxy you will pretty much never find it and no player will ever need to close the client or automate anything and proxy settings are set prior the battle and cheating can go either way of the suggestion, that is what you don't understand.

That is why I and other players want this initial timer to go away as it doesn't serve any effective solution, rather than just apply a simple annoyance.

I shouldn't ever had to make such a big deal if you could just reason with us.

Beside I think 150s of "no jumping into combat" is actually good for gameplay.
You can't just call your friends through mumble to squash people with whom you just lost.

I can't? But why I shouldn't, huh? Just because you think it should be like that and you alone should make the decision how the game should be? Do you have any sense of compromise, tell me do you?

I have wrote so much on the topic and so as others why exactly the initial idling timer is unnecessary, but you keep pushing the same question and to be honest it makes me feel helpless against your stubborn mind that tells me that my and all other player voice on this topic, vote is meaningless except your own point of view.

This is utterly ridiculous, you want to decrease the impact on communicators because that is how players get in touch in order to play your game? Maybe you should look how much players there are even left from what it was long time ago.

Do you have any idea what are your even talking about? I have never seen anything like this anywhere, something like that just blows my mind wondering of how such nonsense can possibly exist ...

I try to be patient and reasonable, I really do, but this is just off the charts.

27 out of 7 players on average would either agree or be neutral with the change, but of course all votes on every single topic on the this forum as far as I am aware are never given a fuck about. Very nice.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: A concerned wastelander on February 19, 2013, 12:39:12 am
The difference is you could have proxy windows with alts in main menu and login after you die for next wave.
Or not even window, just close FOnline, switch proxy setting and enter on another alt. It can be easily automated
with a cheat. Right now you can't do this, well you could try some tricks but they would be very inconvenient
and prone to a fail.

There is no reason to leave a loophole for cheaters.

Beside I think no jumping into existing combat 150s after login is actually good for gameplay.
You can't simply call your numerous friends through mumble to squash people with whom you just lost,
unless they actually are playing the game on PvP characters.

I could not say it better.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 19, 2013, 12:41:10 am
I can't? But why I shouldn't, huh?

Because it promotes swarms who are always ready but not in the game (so basically perfectly safe) at the cost of people who are in the game and doing something in unguarded towns. If your character is in the state of readiness to attack and squash people in a few seconds, then you should be in the game IMO (and ideally in a place that isn't safe too) not in unreachable plane of voice speak.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 01:07:39 am
It is like this feeling that I have all the cards in my hand, but I'm unable to show you the right combination, or you are just unwilling to yield no matter what, I'm sorry I have to use such an arrogant choice of words, but it sounds like it seems.

I notice that I have to express the same thing what I have already said and I had heard you the first time making such statement and me giving you a reply.

... large "swarms" is a part of all politics that happen between factions in or out of the game, alliances even out sooner or later and they go with the flow of the game and anything that restricts the player in that regard is bad. You said it yourself, you want to keep the game's freedom, well guess what this is not exactly the right way.

Your statement is wrong at the very core of itself and not only that it is completely ineffective to the purpose you intend for it work, simply because it doesn't work like you think it should, so it will simply stay as an annoyance, because it will not achieve the desired goal.

https://i.imgur.com/ruyYLTL.jpg

Then again I heard someone saying that it is a positive effect that players are encouraged to be inside the city, but it is no different then being susceptible to any of kind of hostility you might encounter on world map, it will simply stay as an annoyance unfortunately.

Players get used to that annoyance, but it is not about getting used to it ... wait I see this is going to go to another circle, so the fourth time I believe in this topic.

It's not about organization, people get used to it or at least will, but it doesn't make it less true that such an annoyance could be relaxed.

Don't miss the point please, this system is obviously a great improvement in multiple aspects with its own flaws.

If your character is in the state of readiness to attack and squash people in a few seconds, then you should be in the game IMO (and ideally in a place that isn't safe too) not in unreachable plane of voice speak.

There is sadly nothing to be in for the game for a lot of players than to just jump in and check for action, I've explained this already, by the way you fail to deliver us features that would attract the players to more active game play.

Before you or anyone else will say it - yes, we sux in providing such content currently :S As you hit the right buttons

I still believe I push the right buttons.


Does it show a full house or only a pair? I've got loads of cards in either case, I'm seeking for compromise and understanding here, don't get me wrong.

Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 19, 2013, 01:15:02 am
I will try the last time.

1. People logged off can't be scouted and are perfectly safe, although they could jump at you in a matter of seconds.
2. People logged off shouldn't be promoted over those who are in the game.

I can't really help you if you don't understand such simple things.
Can't break it into more simple sentences, sorry.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 01:37:13 am
1. People logged off can't be scouted and are perfectly safe, although they could jump at you in a matter of seconds.

So, that is an abuse that I am away in the university and I cannot play right away when I go home, because you want to fix .. uh me?

Players have played very much to make bases, make characters, logistics and made due to all sort of related organization problems throughout this session in order to be ready and just jump in the game and play whenever they feel like. There is effort below it, nobody should do anything else. No other game restricts one's ability to play once he has entered the game, don't then tell me that I am not restricted, because some part of the game is and don't ignore the larger principle like a lot of things you ignore, so you boil down to simple things that what you are more familiar with to just uphold your own sense of truth.

I don't understand why you don't understand the simple things, like why are you ignoring the vote itself and all other players that share similar opinion or simply is against the current system.

2. People logged off shouldn't be promoted over those who are in the game, in unsafe places (risking and visible).

They aren't promoted, what difference does it make while I'm inside the game prior or I just jump in as soon as I open the client, the difference is many players don't have a reason to stay in the game and it is yet another unnecessary restriction for players to deal with once they jump in it, like they would do in any other game to be honest.

This is just again you over against everyone else and your word is law how we should play the game, well guess what, it should be the other way around if you truly want to improve the game and make it a player friendly environment. New players suffer from your system the most and you don't give a fuck about them and you don't give a fuck about long time playing players that to whom you should really listen once in a while.

Point still stays, initial idling timer is not unnecessary, ineffective and simply an annoyance that should be removed, the vote speaks for itself just like I do for myself.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: avv on February 19, 2013, 01:49:09 am
Players have played very much to make bases, make characters, logistics and made due to all sort of related organization problems throughout this session in order to be ready and just jump in the game and play whenever they feel like.

So what? I think your success should be dependent on what you do inside town rather than how much you prepare. Excessive preparedness just benefits turbofarmers with too much time. Besides those cars and bases will always be useful, idling or not.

Quote
There is effort below it, nobody should do anything else. No other game restricts one's ability to play once he has entered the game,

Other games don't have worldmap. Because of worldmap and the way it works we can't have nice things.

Quote
They aren't promoted, what difference does it make while I'm inside the game prior or I just jump in as soon as I open the client, the difference is many players don't have a reason to stay in the game and it is yet another unnecessary restriction for players to deal with once they jump in it, like they would do in any other game to be honest.

But it's just 2 minutes. The enemies aren't going anywhere and if they are, then is it a big deal to lure them out?

Quote
New players suffer from your system the most and you don't give a fuck about them and you don't give a fuck about long time playing players that to whom you should really listen once in a while.

Actually new players take things as granted and adapt. Our previous waves were 10 times worse against new players than anything idle has to offer.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 19, 2013, 01:51:51 am
They aren't promoted

::) Of course they are, they can't be killed or seen and can idle on WM forever without any effort.
So now they can't enter combat zones immediately to kill people inside.

your word is law how we should play the game

Well, you will play it however you want.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 02:18:14 am
So what? I think your success should be dependent on what you do inside town rather than how much you prepare. Excessive preparedness just benefits turbofarmers with too much time. Besides those cars and bases will always be useful, idling or not.

True they will be useful, but still I don't understand why I have to wait more than I should upon entering game.

What will you do in a town once an enemy team takes it and you just have logged in the game, that is the game for me and I'm holding on some straws what keeps me here at all. Besides there is nothing to do in them at all.

You said it yourself and you know it.

(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3684/activvities.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/activvities.png/)

Other games don't have worldmap. Because of worldmap and the way it works we can't have nice things.

I was like speechless for a moment.

Larger principle takes place, don't you see past the details? I open the game and I have to wait out some meaningless restriction that I think I have showed very clear how so.

This is completely bullshit.

But it's just 2 minutes. The enemies aren't going anywhere and if they are, then is it a big deal to lure them out?

I'm tired really to repeat myself over and over without a goal or purpose it seems.

That time can stack upon gathering players and waiting out individual player timers, I don't want to stare in some blank world map each time I jump in the game and wait for other players to do it even if my own timer has passed in order for me to enjoy a fight or two.


Actually new players take things as granted and adapt. Our previous waves were 10 times worse against new players than anything idle has to offer.

Fuck that, besides the whole point of this topic anyway, your statement is plausible, when new players start to fall in player traps over world map "starting" locations or something, well your not some oracle to predict what's going to happen.


::) Of course they are, they can't be killed or seen and can idle on WM forever without any effort.
So now they can't enter combat zones immediately to kill people inside.

Well, you will play it however you want.

I gave point to every and single sentence about every single thought, I argumented it maybe even better than anyone else could have done it and you still refuse to compromise.

When I start to play it as I want,  only maybe you'll understand some points of mine, besides don't want to touch the game knowing that there are people like you on the top of it.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 19, 2013, 06:21:19 am
Wow this whole thread is just wow.  So here's how it boils down boys and girls, from someone who sat here and read every post in this thread.  T-888 doesn't like the new system, he doesn't like that people don't see his point of view.  He feels what he says should be taken as gospel and since it's not we all must be stupid, ignorant, unimaginative, or self centered. 

Every post you made T-888 is all about how you play the game, and how the system effects you, and how you think it's wrong.  The idle timer ONLY comes into play during situations involving battle with other players in combat zones, and if that is the only thing you do, well we're talking only a few minutes.  Go ~combatmode rt, hang out on the map kill a few predators with your buddies and then you're good to go with whatever you want, you're freaking out over just a few minutes.  If you're camping a map waiting to jump some unsuspecting people this is the price you have to pay.  As far as I've seen the idler debuff only comes into play in combat zones, so you can still log straight in and jump someone in world map encounters. 

You can thank the dozens of multi-alt gangs, because it is THEIR fault that something needed to be implemented to bring some semblance of balance back to pvp.  You are upset because you have to wait on some meaningless restriction (btw in your opinion) well it's not a meaningless restriction as far as the game in concerned it has a purpose and it is currently needed.  The timer isn't there to stop cheaters, it's there to stop fast relog mobs.

You bombard people with ridiculously worded large posts laced with insults and doubletalk because you feel that no one seems to understand, and you've 'Explained it so clearly, people must be idiots' the point of view you're trying to convey.  I haven't yet seen you take a step back and see the other side of the coin for anything other than an obstacle in the path of what you want and feel.  Yet you demand, complain, and down right insult other people who don't see it your way.  You talk about keeping an open mind in your very first post, but every single following post shows you're completely closed to the idea of the idle timer being useful in any way.

This happened, it was needed, and if the price is a few mins of moving around on the world map or sitting in some ungaurded area, that's a small damn price.  I will now quote you and several dozen other people who have spoken about changes or things in the game that effect others when it doesn't suit your views on the game.  "The Wasteland is Harsh."  If the few minutes it takes to be combat ready is too much for you to handle, maybe it's time to make a quit thread and move on. 

I am very sorry to have to say this, but after reading so many of your posts and all of them being the same, trying to discuss things with you is like trying to have a deep discussion with a smart very young person.  You're smart enough to know what you want, and be able to loosely express it but if people don't see it your way you stamp your feet, jump around, throw things, and insult everyone like someone not getting the treat they want before dinner.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 09:53:22 am
Every post you made T-888 is all about how you play the game, and how the system effects you, and how you think it's wrong. 

No, it is not about how I play, it is about how we play, I made a suggestion, made a vote for a reason which is something to account for because not everyone is willing to be so loud about it. I'm not the only one with such point of view and your not the one to come and tell me what I can and what I shouldn't do, either you can tell me that on the topic or get the fuck out. This is a forum and players come to discuss something.

bring some semblance of balance back to pvp

the timer isn't there to stop cheaters, it's there to stop fast relog mobs.

Last time, there are two idling timers, the one that exists when you go into game right away and one that initiates once you re-log. Do you understand what are you talking about, can you come to this topic with some relevant thought and understand the issue?

So, yes that first idling timer upon entering the game shouldn't be there as it is not almost responsible for just about anything relevant to the system.

I won't even read the rest of your post, it is always some irrelevant garbage off-topic about how bad I am or something, some newbie that has problems with mining iron ore will come and tell me what to do anyway and how I should play the game and something. ;D

Seems like a waste of breath anyway, so as any progress or improvement to the system or the game. Ignore all other players, this game is sure to be good. ;D
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 19, 2013, 10:26:58 am

Trokanis u have my vote.well spoken.devs please close this thread
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: LostSoul on February 19, 2013, 10:43:41 am
STOP ALTING YOU DUMBASSES.

Everything is so simple, but you're just butthurt that your swarm PvP tactics have been BRUTALIZED. Well good, fuck you guys having limitless alts for pvp swarm waves, that shit is completely unfair.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 19, 2013, 10:50:53 am
Seriously 2 timers?  You mean the idle timer that shows up in your pip-boy right after log in (whether for the first time, or logging a new character) that starts at 150 seconds?  The very same idle timer that if you should enter a combat zone that is currently active gives you the Idler debuff, until you have been in either an unsafe town or on the world map for it's remaining duration?

Idlers
  • Anyone who enters a Combat Zone while having Idling Timer, becomes an Idler.
  • Anyone who logs in inside a Combat Zone (if the character wasn't in game already), becomes an Idler.
  • Idlers have 5% chance to hit other critters, can't sneak, steal and have 0 Armor Class. The same penalties apply to NPC followers.
  • You stop being an Idler when your Idling Timer runs out or you leave the location.

Idling Timer
  • Characters get 150 seconds of Idling Timer after logging in (if the character wasn't in game already or its IP changed).
  • Idling Timer decreases on the World Map and in unguarded locations.
  • Idling Timer is paused inside real time encounters and inside turn based encounters with opened combat.
  • Idling Timer increases up to 150 seconds inside tents, bases, quest locations, guarded towns and turn based encounters with closed combat.
  • Idling Timer also increases up to 150 seconds when character is offline (but still in game).
  • If you don't spend any Action Points during your turn in turn based combat, Idling Timer increases by the amount of seconds of your turn.
  • After entering tent or base you get 20 seconds of immunity from Idling Timer increase.
  • After death you get 5 minute of immunity from Idling Timer increase.

Idler Warning

If you have the Idling Timer and you are within a distance of 2 squares from a Combat Zone location, this location will be displayed as a crossed orange circle. Anyone else (people who wouldn't become Idlers when entering this location) will see normal green circles. There is no warning before logging in inside Combat Zone.

Idlers have a visible tab informing them about their status.

Remember, having the Idling Timer doesn't mean you have any penalties, unless you willingly enter a Combat Zone (or login inside it, but you can be aware of this risk and not log off in dangerous places). If a location became a Combat Zone while you were inside already, it has no effect on you, even if you have the Idling Timer.


That's all part of the same system right there.  As it has been laid out the ONLY time the Idler debuff can effect you at all is when you enter a combat zone that is active, it's not like it prevents you from pvp elsewhere. (I relogged 2 characters over and over and was able to have them kill each other in several world encounters instantly every time..) The counter argument to your suggestion is simply that the feature does not interfere with the game play in a such a way that it out weighs it's usefulness.

Oh and just because I spoke about the resource issue for new and old players alike doesn't mean that's all I work on in game.  But the fact that you choose to ignore what you don't like speaks volumes about anyone's chances of having a reasonable discussion with you.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 19, 2013, 11:08:42 am
jov maby 150s is to much and maby 120s would be better? 150s is 3 random encouters on wm
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 19, 2013, 11:12:53 am
jov maby 150s is to much and maby 120s would be better? 150s is 3 random encouters on wm

Not a bad thought, at least go with a whole minute number, every time I read the changelog I keep thinking 3 minutes lol.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: greenthumb on February 19, 2013, 11:17:07 am
This thread isnt that usless, if purpose is to entertain  me :P

I think timer works almost perfecty atm. Maby still some bugs occurs but will be fixed soon. For another general change we need at least few weeks(month/s) to test it.
Any big words are usless until many players will suffer due to any present feature.

Lets gather newcomers to join our PVP teams! Thats the challenge, challenge to ressurect 2238!
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 19, 2013, 04:51:43 pm
The counter argument to your suggestion is simply that the feature does not interfere with the game play in a such a way that it out weighs it's usefulness.

First understand how "useful" it is and information is just a paragraph below.

Seriously 2 timers?  You mean the idle timer that shows up in your pip-boy right after log in (whether for the first time, or logging a new character) that starts at 150 seconds?  The very same idle timer that if you should enter a combat zone that is currently active gives you the Idler debuff, until you have been in either an unsafe town or on the world map for it's remaining duration?

I will talk slow.

If two clients are active with two characters, one each inside of the client ( Imagine a box ... just a joke ;D ), and on one of your client gets a disconnect or simply logs off and momentarily logs back in, you will receive idling timer because your IP address is already active and it could made so you would receive this idling debuff when your IP address was active in the past 3 minutes also. That would be equivalent to a mechanic that would disallow you to use multiple alts in combat, some tweaks here and there and the very first idling timer upon entering the game without any re-logging is not needed.

Rest of your post I have already answered somewhere in this topic and it would be now copying walls of texts, I have written a wall of text just about for any subject relating to this matter. ;D

But the fact that you choose to ignore what you don't like speaks volumes about anyone's chances of having a reasonable discussion with you.

If you read the rest of the walls of texts, you wouldn't have to ask questions that have been answered, I dunno how many times now, so sorry I'm not eager to continue with the likes of you.

Go back to digging ores or whatever you can still do in this game. :)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 19, 2013, 05:42:18 pm
T-888 Please take ur pills. This is much better Than fr shit, now i dont Have worry about 6more waves So it is fine for me. But it need polishing like all features. 150s is to much and 90s would be fine. Same sneak off is crap.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 20, 2013, 04:18:13 am

If two clients are active with two characters, one each inside of the client ( Imagine a box ... just a joke ;D ), and on one of your client gets a disconnect or simply logs off and momentarily logs back in, you will receive idling timer because your IP address is already active and it could made so you would receive this idling debuff when your IP address was active in the past 3 minutes also. That would be equivalent to a mechanic that would disallow you to use multiple alts in combat, some tweaks here and there and the very first idling timer upon entering the game without any re-logging is not needed.


So the problem here is you don't like the initial Idle timer.   You say it's not needed
first idling timer upon entering the game without any re-logging is not needed.
However it's purpose is to prevent people who are fresh logging in the first time of the day from being able to instantly jump into Combat Zone pvp.  Because some unscrupulous people will just leave whatever combat alt they want waiting til the time is right to log in and since it's the first time they logged in they would be free to bypass the wait.  You need one for the other, because there are ways to fool the system into thinking this is the first time that character has logged in, and is not just a relog.  I love how you talk about 'talking slow' to people when it's clear you're not seeing the point, not being able to jump straight into combat from a fresh logged character is what the timer is for.  Taking that away would essentially make the whole thing worthless.  It does not matter if you relogged 30 characters or just logged in for the first time, you cannot go straight into Combat Zone pvp.

I will talk slow.....

Go back to digging ores or whatever you can still do in this game. :)

Well there's the proof of my point in the last part of my recent post about being able to have a reasonable discussion with you.  Maybe someday try discussing things with people without constantly resorting to insults and demeaning comments just because you think you're smarter or better than everyone.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 20, 2013, 07:39:33 am
Trokanis ur wasting ur time and ur mind essence with him.he cant understand shit of what u r talking about.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 09:14:23 am
So the problem here is you don't like the initial Idle timer.

... yeah

  You say it's not needed However it's purpose is to prevent people who are fresh logging in the first time of the day from being able to instantly jump into Combat Zone pvp. Because some unscrupulous people will just leave whatever combat alt they want waiting til the time is right to log in and since it's the first time they logged in they would be free to bypass the wait.

You couldn't do that with current system, if you have already an active/inactive character inside the game, it gives you idling timer so players cannot do that either way of my suggestion. Cannot FR.

You need one for the other, because there are ways to fool the system into thinking this is the first time that character has logged in, and is not just a relog.

The player can do it right now and it is not very different than previous session other than the cheater has to be prepared prior fight and wait out this idling timer just like a normal player would with multiple clients, but once it is done he can prepare second, third character for fight. Some inconvenience's on world map is not going to stop if the player really wants to cheat.

It is like last session, but now worse with all the waiting involved (simple 3CD timer would have been much, much better than current), the only safe and reliable way how to do waves was through proxies, but they practically never happened, because proxies are not usable for that I already explained that (I wasn't aware of it for a whole year of playing it, makes sense also) and everyone enjoyed a fair and good game without any bullshit extra time waiting on world map till someone can use his character properly, despite other game feature problems at the time, militia and mutant spamming with proxy alts what was very bad, but now it is not possible anymore anyway.

There's like so few cheaters in comparison to everyone else who has to wait out idling timer on entering game, to just make it a bit more uncomfortable to cheat, but still doable, it doesn't serve any reasonable purpose.

No, idling timer upon entering game is not necessary, except for purpose of FR.
Trokanis ur wasting ur time and ur mind essence with him.he cant understand shit of what u r talking about.

Like you could, your like Perteks, brain dead player who can't write more of a sentence and if you do then it some utter incomprehensible garbage that doesn't express any rational thinking.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Aquare on February 20, 2013, 09:34:35 am
Maybe, if you proxy through Latvia it's not usable. Otherwise I see no reason.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 20, 2013, 10:03:51 am
So you want to be able to log in and go straight into Combat Zone pvp?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 20, 2013, 10:20:44 am
I see no reason to leave loopholes for cheaters because a couple people want to have ability
to jump at others anytime they want with combat character(s) logged off in a convenient place.
I think the game is better when you can't do it anyway. The only immediate risk can come from
people actually playing in the moment and risking something, not from a swarm safely waiting on
mumble for any call for help. This is ability that organizations with lots of combat alts and people
online (but not in game) had, and now they don't, well boo-hoo. Welcome in harsh wasteland.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 20, 2013, 10:34:28 am
Jov but why idllng timer increase in bases and safe cities? It is bullshit and i dont get it.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 20, 2013, 10:46:25 am
Jov but why idllng timer increase in bases and safe cities? It is bullshit and i dont get it.

Because these places are safe, which means you could keep PvP multilogs in them. Especially bases
- they are perfectly safe, so you could idle with gear forever and you can place them right next to TC.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: davrot on February 20, 2013, 10:54:13 am
So you want to be able to log in and go straight into Combat Zone pvp?
He wants a loophole so he could bypass the idling timer, but he got told by Jovanka and now he's just posting random nonsense with tears streaming down his cheeks.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 11:14:04 am
So you want to be able to log in and go straight into Combat Zone pvp?

If I haven't been in game yet, yes. I am disgusted by the principle that I have to wait in order to play the game once I enter it, that is just not normal no matter how you look at it.

I see no reason to leave loopholes for cheaters

Your loophole is a duck tape fix, the loophole is already there you just have to prepare prior to it and can be bypassed and it is already on daily basis of Town Control. You simply aren't aware of that.

because a couple people want to have ability to jump at others anytime they want with combat character(s) logged off in a convenient place.

I think the game is better when you can't do it anyway.

That's a nice twist for players who want to play the game when they enter it, your solution is flawed and that kind of logic, your logic is supported by you and only you.

The only immediate risk can come from people actually playing in the moment and risking something, not from a swarm safely waiting on mumble for any call for help.

I can play at the same time and just not be able to participate in some action when I want, your solution is duck tape like I said. I can, for example, get in order my base, do some logistics, craft, but when I want to do some action I always have to wait on that stupid timer of yours, even if I want it on the same character I use, because each time I enter safe zone ... doh well you know what happens.

This is ability that organizations with lots of combat alts and people online (but not in game) had, and now they don't, well boo-hoo. Welcome in harsh wasteland.

Oh your the expert on organization, you should come play and then see how much time it takes only to gather sufficient amount of players for few minutes of combat, but you will never understand until you experience it. Why the hell anyone needs to wait for anything else? You shouldn't talk about this matter if you aren't in touch with it daily.

So you want to be able to log in and go straight into Combat Zone pvp?

Doesn't matter, free proxies from Latvia are lagging and loosing disconnection often, because free proxies are of low quality connection types pretty much always from all countries and is at the expense of speed and reliability. Find stable, free proxy that doesn't lag, and trust me when I say that it is a good challenge.

He wants a loophole so he could bypass the idling timer, but he got told by Jovanka and now he's just posting random nonsense with tears streaming down his cheeks.

I don't need this to bypass anything, I can already bypass it. I want it just for the sake of comfort and reason. I want to play the game when I enter it and not just part of it and not wait on anything, shit that is so much to ask. If you can't comprehend that, well it is really not my problem and don't mess up space in this topic.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 20, 2013, 11:57:42 am
but this is bullcrap. u think everyone want to cheat. so if u want it maby set iddling cap? to 3mins?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 20, 2013, 12:01:15 pm
but this is bullcrap. u think everyone want to cheat. so if u want it maby set iddling cap? to 3mins?

It is capped at 2.5 minutes.

Also you have immunity from increase for 20s after entering base and for 5 minutes after you die.

It matters only if you want to jump right away into already started combat with a character which was idling safely.

Not everyone wants to cheat, but if it is possible to cheat then sooner or later everyone does it and the rest quits.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 01:47:01 pm
Also you have immunity from increase for 20s after entering base and for 5 minutes after you die.

It isn't enough, if I need to go to base to drop loot, take drugs/ammo, I have always 20-30 seconds of idling timer once back on world map depending on what spawn in base.

It matters only if you want to jump right away into already started combat with a character which was idling safely.

Town Control zone is always such a zone without exceptions.

Not everyone wants to cheat, but if it is possible to cheat then sooner or later everyone does it and the rest quits.

Players cheat now, I will cheat, because hey I can. Maybe some day you will understand, but it doesn't mean everyone will automatically leave, this is, will be more or less like previous session with a lot of loopholes, but nobody is and will be forced to follow in order to have some chance. In other words the whole server will not need 5-6 alts to join a fight, less extreme but that means ...

there is always some percent of cheaters, even if there is one loophole, but players get used to that also, with some whine on top of it of course.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: avv on February 20, 2013, 02:16:04 pm
I'd rather listen cheaters complain about features than players complain about cheaters.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 02:38:18 pm
Be careful, you might not get what you wish for and what then?

Get some backbone and learn to play fair then.

Or what?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: davrot on February 20, 2013, 02:46:26 pm
I will cheat, because hey I can.
Get some backbone and learn to play fair then.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 20, 2013, 03:04:31 pm
Get some backbone and learn to play fair then.

Ur asking a sot not to play then.They cry about this new idling system caz they cant cheat.mb sot can tell us how many characters they lost from permaban since this new update
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 20, 2013, 03:46:32 pm
Hehehe i like to see sot loosing fight after fight after last update...:)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 05:33:33 pm
sot can tell us how many characters they lost from permaban since this new update

This all is totally off-topic, but yeah okay.

2, one taxi and some anti troll character.

I can see your both equally intelligent, please don't try to enlighten me with your garbage, because garbage doesn't shine and isn't very bright to begin with, just like you.

Either stay on topic or don't bother me.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: DeputyDope on February 20, 2013, 06:04:01 pm

2, one taxi and some anti troll character.


dafuq is an anti troll?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 20, 2013, 06:53:06 pm
This all is totally off-topic, but yeah okay.

2, one taxi and some anti troll character.

I can see your both equally intelligent, please don't try to enlighten me with your garbage, because garbage doesn't shine and isn't very bright to begin with, just like you.

Either stay on topic or don't bother me.

At least u got the guts to admit it.well some of the truth.U still trying to avoid the whole picture though.this question wasnt only for u but to ur gang also.Im pretty sure there was more violations from ur gang.since u are the most intelligent here,y u are the only one that cant comprehend something simple like the iddle mechanics?Answer caz u want to cheat.So i suggest u to move to another server and  STFU about this new feature caz its the best thing that happened from the start of this section.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 20, 2013, 08:18:54 pm
You don't understand how even the feature works or maybe you don't understand what I am suggesting, I can tell even by how blunt, dumb statements you make about my faction being cheaters and whatnot, because it is totally besides the point. Anyway, like the factions you are playing with are some angels, give me a fucking break man.

I can "smell" it in the air that you don't understand something. ;D

Nobody is going to start suddenly start cheating after the suggestion, those who cheat, cheat now and will cheat then.

Understand the basic mechanics of what I am suggesting and what is behind them, otherwise no bad English, mocking clown is going to tell me what to do in the topic I created. Comprehend that.

Last time, either you stay on topic of something relevant or gtfo.

dafuq is an anti troll?

 ::) There was time with armor class trolls gone wild, there was time when players made specialized characters to counter them, you of all people should know that.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 21, 2013, 12:26:31 am
Nobody is going to start suddenly start cheating after the suggestion, those who cheat, cheat now and will cheat then.

I saw what appeared to be relogging between proxy char and normal char in Redding today.
Triple1ght and Equalizer (IP was Latvian free proxy), rings a bell? Quite pathetic, but also
very visible. With the last changes the most cheap tactics got a huge blow, it seems you
still try them but it's quite clumsy. I saw you struggling with those relogs, you had to switch
between them every 3 min. Would you disappear, you would get Idler status in TC, ouch.

But anyway, it's fast relog but only useful for scouting, really inconvenient, so not a big deal.
But with your suggestion you could relog to full raging PvP ape left on the world map and
attack people who killed you with the next wave. I think that's exactly what you want and you
won't get it.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: DocAN. on February 21, 2013, 12:35:50 am
It had to be funny watching all this relogs.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 12:53:54 am
jov problem with idlling start in bases, many people had to taxi,regear,heal their chars or just drop loot but when they go on wm they have idlling timer again. my suggestion is to set cap of iddling to max 2.5min and when u are in base/tent ur max idlling time would be 60-90s. 1-1.5min is enought to avoid fr waves, becasue fr waves are using 10s after ur death.


my second sugestion is when ur cliend was crashed or u just log off for 5s and u have idlling timer again. can u set one thing what would improve this feature. when u are loging in on same char (nick and ip) in less than 15s u dont have idlling penalty, ofc if u didnt have it before u log offed. that would avoid situation when ur client crashed and u are in the middle of fight and u cant do anything.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 21, 2013, 12:58:00 am
my second sugestion is when ur cliend was crashed or u just log off for 5s and u have idlling timer again.

It only happens if you have another character logged in in the same time.
Solution is simple - stay on one character when you do PvP.

Restocking - yes, it is a bit of a problem.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 01:02:15 am
It only happens if you have another character logged in in the same time.
Solution is simple - stay on one character when you do PvP.

Restocking - yes, it is a bit of a problem.

no, jov i am not dual logging since i was banned in bh few months ago. i was in one pvp char but i wanted to run fraps *crash and 2nd when i switched my resolution to full screen. and few times when i was going to doc myself on my 2nd alt (switching alts in less than 10s). and last one most offen - connection drop becasue of lag spike or bad network. giving us 15s of safe time to log on same char with out idlling penalty can only help us, and this wont ruin ur idea.

and i never crashed even if i was using 10 sandboxie clients at same time. and u cant use 2nd clinet on wm becasue u will fall in critter encounter.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 21, 2013, 01:04:38 am
when i was going to doc myself on my 2nd alt (switching alts in less than 10s)

>_> Well, you relogged to another alt, didn't you? So what did you expect.
Stay on one character while you do PvP. It's really that simple.

I think you need to let go some things you got used to ;)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 01:12:44 am
1. one time i reloged to doc my arm
2. i started fraps *it is crashing my clients
3. i switched my resolution
4. some of us were kicked becasue of bad network and lag spike
5. i had old habits to relog to looter
6. i switched my char to start tc window *i needed charisma
7. come on jov it isnt anything what will help fr waves but it can help to save people from simple mistakes.

if ur clined crashed in the middle of fight or on wm 2s before u enter town u are fucked. 15s is a time when u have a chance to enjoy pvp even if u had badluck. not everyone use multilogs to fight.
i really like this feature but it need few improvments.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Kelin on February 21, 2013, 01:35:45 am
Wtf don't you really get it man, IF your client crashes and you log back in, there will be no idling timer!
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 01:49:58 am
Wrong. There is. Maby i did something wrong but i had idlling timer.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 21, 2013, 02:01:13 am
Rage, If you log in on the SAME character your idle timer will only increase the small amount of time it took your computer to log you back in.  (Changelog, idle timer increases when your character is logged off but STILL in game)  So we're talking seconds.  Also there is an extremely slim chance that if you got disconnected because of your own net that it reset your IP when you reconnected which would also give you full timer.  If you switch to a doc and back well then you have full timer.  *I spent the last 10 minutes logging off and on the same character in world map, in combats and in base, my Idle timer only increased by the few seconds while I was offline but still in game every time, so it should not effect you if you get DC'd while doing stuff and relog on the same character*

As far as T-888's incredibly slanted logic, and your complaint about prep time: When moving to your base to gear up and drug up from wherever you were that lowers your Idle time, when entering your base you have 20 seconds of free time, after leaving your base and moving to whatever location you wanted to do combat in, that lowers your Idle time, if you get lucky and the area isn't a combat zone when you arrive then your Idle time does NOT matter at all because if it turns CZ while you're already inside it having Idle time does not effect you.  I'm sorry your crusade to be able to have a fresh insta-loggable combat ape ready and waiting at any moment isn't gonna work, we all see what you're trying to do.  The whole system is to prevent fresh characters from dropping into CZ's from a safe area.  Learn to do something for the 2.5 minutes and move on, if you can't, well this game may be too harsh for you.

We've all said it as many ways as we can, someone wanna tag in for me, I'm taking a break?
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 21, 2013, 07:10:46 am
I saw what appeared to be relogging between proxy char and normal char in Redding today.
Triple1ght and Equalizer (IP was Latvian free proxy), rings a bell? Quite pathetic, but also
very visible.

I don't what your talking about, if you were so sure, then why didn't you ban me? It's a shared sneaker anyway, what if I told the guy to use a Latvian proxy because I knew the only way you could ban me and be wrong about it is if you were familiar with the characters, so what next time it might be not be a Latvian proxy or sneaker Equalizer in the battle, you will presume I don't cheat or nobody else?

;D

With the last changes the most cheap tactics got a huge blow, it seems you
still try them but it's quite clumsy. I saw you struggling with those relogs, you had to switch
between them every 3 min. Would you disappear, you would get Idler status in TC, ouch.

Like I said, proxies tend to be unstable, disconnections, lags.

But other than that, struggling? Clumsy? Maybe I was just testing something, maybe I wasn't even playing on my character, besides that it is balls easy, because I got a timer on top of my screen to time it. Timing, anyone who has been half decent at some fast paced shooter FPS that revolves around "power-ups" will know how to keep track of 5 such 3 minutes timers without breaking a sweat and manage playing. It's called multitasking. ;D

Duct tape system.

But anyway, it's fast relog but only useful for scouting, really inconvenient, so not a big deal.
But with your suggestion you could relog to full raging PvP ape left on the world map and
attack people who killed you with the next wave. I think that's exactly what you want and you
won't get it.

Only for scouts? Is it?

Will see. :)

I don't need this suggestion to cheat and keep a ready combat character on the world map, even if that means multitasking it out from encounter once in while and there are more efficient ways how to store more of them without having to do that. Doesn't matter if it clumsy for you, me or the average Fat Joe, it is doable.

I'm sorry your crusade to be able to have a fresh insta-loggable combat ape ready and waiting at any moment isn't gonna work

... blyad.

I don't need that fucking suggestion to do it, are you weak minded or something? ;D

Wrong. There is. Maby i did something wrong but i had idlling timer.

It is bugged shit.

*I spent the last 10 minutes logging off and on the same character in world map, in combats and in base, my Idle timer only increased by the few seconds while I was offline but still in game every time, so it should not effect you if you get DC'd while doing stuff and relog on the same character*

Bullshit.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 09:07:33 am
I will make it simple. I was in redding on my gauss sniper and i opened fraps So my client crashed. When i log on again i had again 3min idlling timer on same character in redding.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 21, 2013, 09:19:20 am
I will make it simple. I was in redding on my gauss sniper and i opened fraps So my client crashed. When i log on again i had again 3min idlling timer on same character in redding.

It's only possible if:
 - another player had a character with the same IP in the game
 - you had more than one character (including off) with the same IP in the game
 - IP of your character changed between crash / logging in (someone else logged on it or you changed Internet connection)
 - there is a bug

Maybe you have some character in no-logoff location. Like Sierra, Ares.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 09:40:37 am
no, i was playing on 1 client, and after this i posted my suggestion about 15s safe logging.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 21, 2013, 09:43:02 am
Triple noob it seems we all are wasting our time here with u.Personally  im satisfied that u havent managed to make something out of this  and u not gona do it in the future either.Every whining post u make from now on concerning iddling system gona make my satisfaction even bigger.Im not gona lose my time with u from now on.  8)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 21, 2013, 10:04:36 am
no, i was playing on 1 client, and after this i posted my suggestion about 15s safe logging.

If you are 100% sure nothing above happened and you were off only a few seconds then it's a bug.
Let us know when something like that happens next time so we can check all chars in the game.

The system needs some tweaks to make restocking easier if you were in unsafe locations long
enough. Beside it I think what we lack now is some effective tool to detect & blacklist proxy IPs.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 21, 2013, 10:20:03 am
Every whining post u make from now on concerning iddling system gona make my satisfaction even bigger.

Like I care, go take your satisfaction elsewhere clown.

I'm telling you to gtfo of this topic the third time if you don't have anything valuable to say. Hard to understand or somthing?

If you are 100% sure nothing above happened and you were off only a few seconds then it's a bug.
Let us know when something like that happens next time so we can check all chars in the game.

Have to test it with raw loss of internet connection, raw like cable out. :)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 21, 2013, 03:03:33 pm
I love how I state facts and T-888 cries bullshit.  If you didn't need this suggestion to do what you already do then why are you crying so hard throughout the whole thread?

Anyhow I did test it Rage, the only thing I couldn't get tested was if you logged out and back in on the Same character while the area is an active Combat Zone whether it gave you idler debuff, which if the system is working right shouldn't happen anyways unless you switch characters, or your IP changes.  As far as I can see it must have been a glitch because like I said I logged on and off several times on the same character without my idle refreshing to the 2.5 mins, I just wish I could have tested it in an active combat zone.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 21, 2013, 05:09:46 pm
yes i was in active combat zone.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 22, 2013, 05:34:05 am
Ok Rage, I just tested it with the help of Boon, I killed him in Gecko, which turned the place into a Combat Zone, logged off, waited 30 seconds, logged back in on the Same character, no Idle timer or Debuff.  So you must have encountered a glitch, your IP changed via your router which can happen, or you perhaps were logged out long enough for your character to fully leave game, making it so when you re-entered your Idle timer reset.

My recommendation is to perform the same test with a friend, kill them in some corner of an unguarded town, log off, log back in after less than 2 minutes, and see the results, check your IP both times also.  Do this without another character logged into the game no matter where they are, as it will effect the test.  Because it is possible that it may randomly give the Idler debuff for however many seconds you have remaining of Idle timer from being logged out but still in game.  If that is the case, than this is one of the things that Jovanka was talking about needing fine tuning.  Because you shouldn't get hit with the debuff for being dc'd for a short period and coming back on the SAME character so long as IP didn't change and you didn't log in a different character in the meantime.  It's a possible glitch that logging off but not being gone long enough to leave game, the game still counts you as "Logging into a Combat Zone." and gives you the debuff.  I don't believe that is intended that way, again only for logging off and returning on with the SAME character.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 22, 2013, 07:48:28 am
Ok Rage, I just tested it with the help of Boon, I killed him in Gecko, which turned the place into a Combat Zone, logged off, waited 30 seconds, logged back in on the Same character, no Idle timer or Debuff.  So you must have encountered a glitch

Actually no, he just didn't understand and thought character in game but [off] doesn't count so the case can be closed.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 22, 2013, 09:56:22 am
Wait so he was logged off but still in game, and that's how he got the Idler Debuff, or is he just referring to the fact the Idle timer increased for that few seconds?  Because like I said I logged out and back in without letting my character log completely out and I did not get Idler Debuff.  I only ask because if it's hitting people who are DC'd in an active combat zone only for a few seconds, that IMHO is not fair so long as they return to the game on the same character without switching characters in between, and their IP doesn't change.  (Cause we all know this game is far from DC proof.)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: JovankaB on February 22, 2013, 10:07:15 am
Wait so he was logged off but still in game, and that's how he got the Idler Debuff

He had another character in game, but in the 3 minute [off] mode, which still counts as "character in game".
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 10:57:47 am
yes. but i think jov could fix that to avoid situation like theese
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 22, 2013, 12:27:15 pm
Nope sorry, if you have 2 or more characters in the game even if they're in the 3 min log off window, that's kinda what the system is for so I can't help ya.  No more multi-alting in combat situations, pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 01:38:50 pm
dude u really dont get it. 10-15s for 1 char wont abuse anything. in 10s u cant do shit so stop talking about multilogging if u never used it in abuse way like i did. anyway 150s is way to much and sometimes we miss fights becasue our cz timer is still on and we cant enter town before tc timer end. please jov set max and begin cap to 90s.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Trokanis on February 22, 2013, 02:49:28 pm
Don't have more than one of your Characters in the game at the same time, even if logged off but still in game, problem solved.  I've already tested that if you have a Single character log off and back on your totally ok.  The whole point of the system is to prevent multiple characters from the same person being used, along with fast logging to another fresh character.  If you don't do either of those things you're golden.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 04:54:21 pm
i am not defender of old fr system like t-cry. i like this feature because now smaller group can try pvp but 150s is too much.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: manero on February 22, 2013, 05:01:03 pm
Idling system is huge piece of shit.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 22, 2013, 06:06:14 pm
Idling system is huge piece of shit.
BBS key fighting strategy has been nerfed,figured you'd hate it.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 07:24:12 pm
Mike u are a guy who dont pvp and u think u know best how pvp should like. Thnx to people like u we had troll era with sd and ac trolls. Please better stay with ur beloved Ncr instead of good pvp solutions.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: manero on February 22, 2013, 07:33:18 pm
BBS key fighting strategy has been nerfed,figured you'd hate it.

Blablabla i dont really care if there are fast relogs or not but idling system is freaking annoying and i wont support it. Bring back 3minutes/10 minutes cd for alts.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 22, 2013, 07:34:25 pm
Mike u are a guy who dont pvp and u think u know best how pvp should like. Thnx to people like u we had troll era with sd and ac trolls. Please better stay with ur beloved Ncr instead of good pvp solutions.
FYI i tried pvp,it sucked (used well made lvl 24 builds)
I know how it works,i talk to long term pvp players almost every day,I listen to their complaints.For me it was fun for a short while but it gets boring as shit after a few hours since:almost no chance to kill anything even if there are 3 people on your side shooting the same person (thanks to ss)

The additional trolling and "forum pvp" doesn't help either.

I decided i'm better off doing pve or quests or even idling in NCR since apparently even that produces more fun then "boom boom ss boom boom ss"


You on the other hand seem to have some sort of xenophobia towards anything that isn't pvp


Blablabla i dont really care if there are fast relogs or not but idling system is freaking annoying and i wont support it. Blah... make explanations for fuckin noob what the hell is wrong with me hehe get lost.
Ooohh the agony!
3 mins are soooo long.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Kelin on February 22, 2013, 07:41:19 pm
Bring back 3minutes/10 minutes cd for alts.
Hell no!
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 07:41:44 pm
So tell me how I can kill players and loot their ss?:) magic or I just know how to pvp?;)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: vinio on February 22, 2013, 07:48:31 pm
Blablabla i dont really care if there are fast relogs or not but idling system is freaking annoying and i wont support it. Bring back 3minutes/10 minutes cd for alts.
Hell no x 2.old system can be bypassed easier than this new one.
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 22, 2013, 07:50:58 pm
So tell me how I can kill players and loot their ss?:) magic or I just know how to pvp?;)
**injects stimpak**
**injects stimpak**
**injects stimpak**
**1 hex**
F3
Enemy has been hit for 300 damage and has been killed
**injects stimpak**
F3

Yeah I think this sums it up
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Rage master on February 22, 2013, 07:54:04 pm
Ok I  am done with u. Go and play in tb pve :)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 22, 2013, 08:03:33 pm
Ok I  am done with u. Go and play in tb pve :)
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30365245.jpg)
Title: Re: Idling system.
Post by: T-888 on February 22, 2013, 09:39:42 pm
I love how I state facts and T-888 cries bullshit.  If you didn't need this suggestion to do what you already do then why are you crying so hard throughout the whole thread?
dling system is freaking annoying and i wont support it

Pretty much sums up my thoughts, it could be less annoying(that was the basic idea, but players here have major comprehension problems)

Hell no x 2.old system can be bypassed easier than this new one.

It can be bypassed just as easily now, it is only more annoying to manage. You go WM, wait fucking timer, be on proxy, log off and don't let your character log off completely so when you log back in you don't have idling timer and you can use that to make extra waves, mercenary leaders, sneakers and whatever comes into your mind. If only you have basic sense of time and eyes in your head to watch the same town control timer in order to not let your characters log off completely that way timing it.

The difference is, it is also a lot more annoying for players who don't want to cheat, you can't go take even a shit or smoke, or make a drink or do anything and you'll have to wait for that Idling crap again. Cheating is harder, but just as doable, so less players cheat, but those who do have better "reward", gain more advantage out of it.

Either some good solution came or no solution at all, it would have been better to leave it as it is until proper features are made, not this annoying shit.