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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: maciek83 on April 24, 2012, 10:35:44 pm
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im wondering, the most wieved topic 'how to get started' has 120000 wievs...
does that rly mean we had 120k people that wanted to try this game but then abandoned it forever?
after all its not popular and anyhow recomended game so i guess only old fallout fans try it ... and leave it
its sad
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Views do not mean people... and that's just about one of the oldest threads on this forum after NMA. But yeah, I'm sure there have been many people that no longer play.
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they do not? i dont get it , so if you view multiple times it also counts?
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they do not? i dont get it
well if i open and close this thread over and over the amount of times it was veiwed will go up. it goes based on amount of times opened not by ip/person.
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If you close out of the internet browser, and then go to the page again it adds a count each time. But you're still right, it is sad how people abandon a game, which many have.
Also, spambots probably are a decent percent of that total. Even obscure wiki pages have over 1k views due to spambots.
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o, then its not so dramatic after all, maybe this number is then like 12k...
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after all its not popular and anyhow recomended game so i guess only old fallout fans try it ... and leave it
I wasn't actually friend of fallout when I started playing on 2238
(Of course I was played fallout games, but they weren't very good in my option)
Yeah.. I think everyone who want to play 2238 know about it ;)
I just hate people who install game -> new character -> dies x30 like something whatever -> stop playing
It just... sad
I have died about.. hmm let's count.. million times? Lost some good stuff sometimes and sometimes I was just on bluesuit
It made me feel weird, if I don't die on 2238 :/
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It is actually true as falloutdude says. I have tested this...
I'd say less than half of those views are from individuals.
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I think the installation process should be revamped because I've had to help over five of my friends via team viewer set their shit up, and I've even confused myself while doing it lol. I know for sure there's people who've probably tried to install the game but couldn't so they moved on.
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I think the installation process should be revamped because I've had to help over five of my friends via team viewer set their shit up, and I've even confused myself while doing it lol. I know for sure there's people who've probably tried to install the game but couldn't so they moved on.
Makes you wonder if putting master.dat and critter.dat included into installation would bring any problems.
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Makes you wonder if putting master.dat and critter.dat included into installation would bring any problems.
hrmm of course it would. devs cant do that because that would be pirateing. they would be sued or some shit like that.
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i dont think installing the game is a problem here, if someone cant do it properly or search forum for help ,such game is already not for him so he will rage quit anyway.
i think that main problem is a REALLY hard start, when you have nothing but one (crappy) character.
we really HAVE TO do something to make it easier! my sugestions would be:
1.make tents not require any hides but be doable by a command
2.make npcs in towns that give for FREE limitless amount of crapiest weapon of its class and if you are below level 10. and make those weapons even crapier so no trolling with them is possible in any way.that would require new crapy energy weapon that use no ammo maybe, and new crapy big gun with ammo for it, such weapons should be not able to be taken out of inventory in any way either on ground on locker to trade or to be looted from dead body.
maby this is not SO logic idea but it would REALLY do the trick. or enlighten me why not...
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Rags to Riches is a great story, and all the more rewarding when you accomplish it without handouts.
This game is hard. I actually like it that way. The more padding a game gets the more stagnant it gets.
I refer you to this analogy for dwarf fortress.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110522180205/vsrecommendedgames/images/a/a5/Dwarf_Fortress_fun.png
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alrite but the problem is more people just quit whe see no way to get ahead in game
and giving somethink really crappy for free is not so much of a help really
it just gives a chance for those 'less smarter'
i think having more people play this game is really worth it
besides youd always not take that free crap and play it as a hardcorer should
in fact if you are smart you will get faster a better not free weapon and do better that way
i just see we have to help those poor people that find begining a dying and loosing all fest
maybe this is desperation but i think its more good than bad
we have to do some sacrifices if we want more people in game
and this is far better solution than some noob-friendly zones nonsens
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i think that main problem is a REALLY hard start, when you have nothing but one (crappy) character.
we really HAVE TO do something to make it easier!
I'd have to disagree here. It's not that the game is actually hard, but there's no difficulty curve, so the biggest challenge for a new player are actually the first few days. A fix to the difficulty curve afaik wouldn't be established by handing out freebies, but by gating areas that introduce progressively difficult situations and concepts, which flies in the face of what the game is.
In fact I'd argue that difficulty isn't an obstacle, but information or rather lack thereof. As is, a new player is thrown into the same gameworld/circumstances as an experienced player with several L24 builds. Since the former isn't forced to pvp the latter, this isn't so much a problem in itself. What is a problem, though, is that a new player not only has no clue what to do, but often comes from a background, where the only possible expectation for Fonline can be "Fallout MMO", which it is actually quite a bit removed from. Throw in the unexpected possibility of pvp anywhere due to basically no safe zones, which often results in distrust in the player base and you basically get massive frustration. The big problem here imo is not so much difficulty, but how to convey a few essential points:
- You're not the Chosen One.
- There is no difficulty curve. Your first few days are your trial by fire, it will be easier after that.
- You're not the Chosen One.
- Other players can and will abuse you. Anytime. Anywhere.
- You're not the Chosen One.
- Until you figure some stuff out, you'll fail constantly. Even after that, get used to death and loss. Just accept it.
- You're not the Chosen One. And in fact you never will be. The game doesn't revolve around you and doesn't give a flying shit to begin with. Deal with it, at least it's not going to get harder.
The reality is, as is, the mod will never be big. And that's fine, the game experience itself is simply too niche. What I did observe however, is that practically every new player expecting a Fallout 2 MMO is raging like crazy and, if no intervention happens, quits a few hours/days in. However, new players without expectations or with the mindset of not having everything handed to them are doing perfectly fine or at least as fine as can be expected in my experience. Granted, sometimes it's just sheer luck, if an experienced player decides to show you the ropes, you will have a much smoother start than on your own. But in the end they're all facing the same starting conditions and those with the appropriate mindset fare exponentially better than those that aren't prepared to be treated by the game like an intruder. Which is basically the piece of information we ideally want to be able to convey to every new player.
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yes, i understand you, you are right
still...
i will stand by my opinion that if we dont make those few first hours of play easier we will be stuck with low populated server made mostly by the same people every wipe. and i will repeat that noob friendly zones are most retarded idea.
making npc give some crap instead of nice players would make it even for all starters and not only those few that had help will stay ( i personally had NO help at all and did fine never ever raged ,but not many people are like that)
free crap is simple solution and would perfectly eliminate the thing that makes 90% of people just leave and that is :
a starting character have absolutely NO 'firepower' to start gaining exp and basic stuff - with my simple solution it would have it.
the thing that most people are finding 'too much' for em is having to somehow get your first gun ( and for some of em it can take up to an hour) then proceed few steps(or not) , loose all and start again naked - this is what we need to get rid of to have more people on server
and my solution will have absolutely no impact on any other aspect of game than those few first hours - all we will loose is a hardocore climete of first few hours that for most is just boring and not worth it
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In fact I'd argue that difficulty isn't an obstacle, but information or rather lack thereof.
I wholeheartedly agree. Common game mechanics, things that should be basic knowledge, are often omitted from guides and posts simply because people would prefer to keep their advantage a secret. While normally this would be fine, a wiki or player could dispense the appropriated info, but obliviously the majority of sources are either outdated or misleading.
Honestly until I met Malice and Nightlock, I was still poking around in the dark after nearly two weeks of play.
Really the game itself isn't that "hard", it is just rather unforgiving, which is exactly how I like my Wasteland. Creating a faction from scratch was the hardest thing I've done in this game.
Also I think it is important to point out again, that you are not the Chosen One. Many other MMOs adopt that kind of attitude toward PCs, breathing room to learn the game, offering that you may one day be the king of that world or some-such. 2238 openly puts you in the role of just another Wastelander, which is much more satisfying to me, because you have become powerful or rich by your own machinations, not by some divine presence or legendary bloodlines.
I'd really like to see some sort of tutorial area, where you are progressively taught the basics of the game. I may map and script one out, just for the shits and giggles, but unfortunately the Devs don't seem interested in any outside input, except it would seem in 3D development.
Also, I think the first thing new players should be told, is to join a faction. The game is infinitely easier and more fun when you have people ready to listen to you bitch and catch you when you get PKed. Also factions tend to dispense more useful and reliable advice than the trolls that usually are the first to respond to newbies posts.
Free junk would ruin the wasteland feel of the game imo. Guns and Armors are not something found or used lightly, and such valuable items would not be simply given away by anyone in their right mind. Again, if you need a good loadout, join a friendly faction.
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I'd really like to see some sort of tutorial area, where you are progressively taught the basics of the game. I may map and script one out, just for the shits and giggles, but unfortunately the Devs don't seem interested in any outside input, except it would seem in 3D development.
They're doing it sometimes:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,14746.0.html
Also may be they will accept your work, you can always try ;p
Anyway your work could be used somewhere, as Wichura's map for metro was used in quest, etc.
Edit: or it was someone else's map? Can't remember, whatever.
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Now that I think little more... I think it's better that there will be no new guys.
I can't explain any better...
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o people , you dont recieve my massage i guess
you tell some complicated stories while i only want to get rid of JUST FIRST FEW HOURS OF PLAY HARDCORE THAT IS TO MUCH FOR 90% OF NOOBS
i just want to see more people on server with the simplest method
free junk would not ruin you feelings after you are past first 2 or 3 hours of play
come on i said we have to do somethink that seems stupid to achieve more important goal
you are all right with what you write but those 'elaborates' are not at all needed
we know how it would be better but what you say will never happan its just wishfull thinking while i am talking about real simple and effective way to get here more people
its a sacrifice(not much for christ...) for good cause
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Now that I think little more... I think it's better that there will be no new guys.
I can't explain any better...
nah ... its always funnier with more noobs around, now there are mostly powergamers while we should be the elite of a server ;)
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Ah, I thought they had closed these contests. I shall have to repost my quests there and the status of them.
Also, I was a little disheartened about the lack of enthusiasm from players, about anything that doesn't involve TC. It seems that when the Devs implement a cool non-combat feature, it is ignored or unused, but as soon as some combat ability gets nerfed or TC changes, there is a rage flood. I often feel sorry for the devs having to deal with the most childest player-base since the Barrens Chat.
And it is a larger sacrifice than I think you realize maciek. Part of what makes this game is that first slough through the mud. Accomplishment does not come without hard work. If you are going to ragequit because you can't find a gun, you not going to last long here anyway. The wasteland is harsh, as much as I hate the fucking meme, and it should stay that way.
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then i guess we just see it whole different,
if you cant find first gun you just cant do the HARDEST thing in that game while you could easily go after that
and i thought about this idea for quite some time and i for one find it acceptable when adventages of it will be taken into consideration
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the thing that most people are finding 'too much' for em is having to somehow get your first gun ( and for some of em it can take up to an hour) then proceed few steps(or not) , loose all and start again naked - this is what we need to get rid of to have more people on server
I'd really like to see some sort of tutorial area, where you are progressively taught the basics of the game.
I may be wrong, but the problem I see with giving out shit for free is new players raging on level 5 instead of level 1. I think the important part about getting your first gun is, in fact, getting it, not having it. I'm guilty of this myself, but at least to me it feels like new players I gave a cheap gun and then took Brahmin hunting, where they could ask questions about the game and all that stuff, got way more out of the deal than those I just gave 10 hides for a tent.
Fortunately there's actually a great solution for both schools of thought:
Lorraine (http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Scavenge_for_Lorraine)
You get a starter gun and some ammo after a very simple quest that doesn't just give the reward out for free, but actually teaches you how to do it, while simultaneously showing you the importance of crafting, item deterioration caused by repairing, how to farm a single spot on the worldmap, the importance of running away from battles and the Fixboy. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Unfortunately right now it's broken beyond recognition and why she's buried in Adytum, when afaik no starter quest is pointing towards her (unless you're lucky enough to spawn at Hub and then curious enough to get the widow quest), is beyond me.
So yeah, if she gets fixed, the ridiculous material requirements on the 10mm removed, her speech timer disabled and new players actually pointed towards her (or her potential clones around the worldmap), you kind of have something similar to "free crap for noobs" and a little mini tutorial, everyone's hopefully happy and I wouldn't be surprised, if we saw a positive effect on server population, even if it's just a small one.
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As it stands now, the game is unforgiving. To those of a mindset from this generation, it's hard. To those that enjoyed the absolute shitfest that was Ultima Online and similiar games, this game is pretty standard.
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I may be wrong, but the problem I see with giving out shit for free is new players raging on level 5 instead of level 1. I think the important part about getting your first gun is, in fact, getting it, not having it. I'm guilty of this myself, but at least to me it feels like new players I gave a cheap gun and then took Brahmin hunting, where they could ask questions about the game and all that stuff, got way more out of the deal than those I just gave 10 hides for a tent.
Fortunately there's actually a great solution for both schools of thought:
Lorraine (http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Scavenge_for_Lorraine)
You get a starter gun and some ammo after a very simple quest that doesn't just give the reward out for free, but actually teaches you how to do it, while simultaneously showing you the importance of crafting, item deterioration caused by repairing, how to farm a single spot on the worldmap, the importance of running away from battles and the Fixboy. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Unfortunately right now it's broken beyond recognition and why she's buried in Adytum, when afaik no starter quest is pointing towards her (unless you're lucky enough to spawn at Hub and then curious enough to get the widow quest), is beyond me.
So yeah, if she gets fixed, the ridiculous material requirements on the 10mm removed, her speech timer disabled and new players actually pointed towards her (or her potential clones around the worldmap), you kind of have something similar to "free crap for noobs" and a little mini tutorial, everyone's hopefully happy and I wouldn't be surprised, if we saw a positive effect on server population, even if it's just a small one.
well i assumed (hoped) people are not complete retards and they would know ,that this starting crap is just to give them sheer posibility of fighting for better stuff and in the mean time learn how game works, so till they get first levels they will have enough of basic gear to comfortably play for themself from then on.
the thing with quest girl that gives you first gun is that they will loose this one gun the second the quest is over - when they encounter just about anyone ,player or even rats... free crap is so they dont loose ability to do a shit averytime they die... and crafting when you dont have anything is not an answer here as was proven by many rage quitters
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well i assumed (hoped) people are not complete retards and they would know ,that this starting crap is just to give them sheer posibility of fighting for better stuff and in the mean time learn how game works, so till they get first levels they will have enough of basic gear to comfortably play for themself from then on.
the thing with quest girl that gives you first gun is that they will loose this one gun the second the quest is over - when they encounter just about anyone ,player or even rats... free crap is so they dont loose ability to do a shit averytime they die... and crafting when you dont have anything is not an answer here as was proven by many rage quitters
im wondering, the most wieved topic 'how to get started' has 120000 wievs...
does that rly mean we had 120k people that wanted to try this game but then abandoned it forever?
i dont think installing the game is a problem here, if someone cant do it properly or search forum for help ,such game is already not for him so he will rage quit anyway.
and i will repeat that noob friendly zones are most retarded idea.
while we should be the elite of a server ;)
Downing Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_effect#IQ)
Happens to me all the time, too, fwiw. Just figured you may find that article interesting. Personally it really made me reflect quite a bit.
For the time being, though, this isn't going to lead anywhere.
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I just hate one thing.
Plasma nade killers in protected cities
For example this player "Zen" you do know the quest with super-mutants from Gun Runners right?Well I got the item quest and I happily walk to Gun Runners, thinking I won't be killed there as it is protected town , but guess what this "Zen" guy camps with plasma grenades right inside the building - right behind the door.
I think you got it how I ended.I lost an quest item and all my loot from it.
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Downing Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_effect#IQ)
Happens to me all the time, too, fwiw. Just figured you may find that article interesting. Personally it really made me reflect quite a bit.
For the time being, though, this isn't going to lead anywhere.
:o lol does that mean i m stupider than i think becouse i assume 'we' have more IQ than all those rage quitters?.... or i am intelligent becouse i assumed a regular person have decent inteligence so he can know what to do with the free crap
im confused :-X
after all i only noticed a fact: most people cant handle a game like we do ;) so lets help them...
@Knife_cz quite off topic , there is a topic about what you said somewhere
ok i get it ,i have low iq and low self esteem ... i guess i should rage quit my life now 8)
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I got time to time habit to help low hp players (aka new players), but they all so paranoids because they think I will kill them (Which I don't want to do with my "helper" alts)
Like getting 10 brahmine hides for tent/camp or some weapons from encounters or just simply insane mutated moles killing.
I can understand, if you got killed many times by different players but you need also remember that there is good guys too.
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yea, i dont really hang around ncr to help noobs , but when i see them in desert trying to fight rats i have never killed even one,
strange enough they sometimes try to shoot on me with their mausers or rush with a spear:)
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I just hate one thing.
Plasma nade killers in protected cities
For example this player "Zen" you do know the quest with super-mutants from Gun Runners right?Well I got the item quest and I happily walk to Gun Runners, thinking I won't be killed there as it is protected town , but guess what this "Zen" guy camps with plasma grenades right inside the building - right behind the door.
I think you got it how I ended.I lost an quest item and all my loot from it.
Oooops! Aren't you being a little hypocrite cunt now? This would've never happened if you hadn't killed that robed guy that joined you to go to the quest area. Regards from Section8.
Btw, it wasn't Zen who killed you. It was me, the robed guy. Thanks for making my day. Cheers!
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yea, i dont really hang around ncr to help noobs , but when i see them in desert trying to kill rats i have never killed any,
strange enough they sometimes try to shoot on me with their mausers or rush with a spear:)
Same happened to me too :'(
It was shame they attacked to me, because I beaten them to death in second after that :D
protip for newbies: if you see (awareness needed ofc) guy with 200hp without armor or weapon. leave him alone and don't ever ever shoot.. that could be you last thing you do lol of course try you mauser and do like 2-5 dmg.. its just little useless
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I can understand, if you got killed many times by different players but you need also remember that there is good guys too.
At the beginning, trust nobody. Seriously, newbie-abuse is very popular.
Probably something to do with the Wiki having advice to basically be self reliant. In such a punishing system, prudence is rewarded more often than it's penalized. I'd rather run from another player with a new character than stop to say hi.
Russians. Hrn.
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Now that I think little more... I think it's better that there will be no new guys.
I can't explain any better...
yes clearly a game with a crude pvp system and awkward controls would benefit from it having a low player base so no one is ever around to join/kill. Personally I find most of the long term players of this game to be insufferable douchebags, pvp players especially. Not because of their ingame behaviour as much as their personalities, fonline seems to attract a lot of ruthless griefers with no social skills and in a few cases legitimate metal health problems. That and every one of them seems to think they are experts on everything.
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I'm a newer player (around 2 weeks) so I'll throw in my two bits.
The game itself is fine. Some of the mechanics are annoying (blueprint hunting, town control),
but these are things understood to be in development and will probably change over time.
As Roachor has pointed out, there is a definite surplus of insufferable douchebags.
This is most noticable to new players who enter guarded towns and quickly discover
that the only people hanging around are generally throwaway alts specifically designed
to harass others.
Shooting a blue-suited pickpocket/grenadier seems pointless since they have no
real investment in the character. Zero risk to the griefer, %100 risk to the honest player.
Since the trash alt objective is to waste your time and/or annoy you,
they're winning in almost all scenarios even if they get nothing.
So really, the only true barriers to new players are the existing players, a common problem in internet gaming with no easy solution.
Please note that none of this has stopped me from playing, nor will it.
I'm simply suggesting that making "safe" towns a little safer would go a long way towards fostering a larger/fresher playerbase.
A few ideas to flame:
Disable pickpocketing in guarded towns.
Committing crimes causes guarded towns to be inaccessible or possibly guards shoot on sight.
Etc..
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I think if a character's pick-pocketing attempt fails they should instantly be launched into turn-based combat; giving the guards and or victim an opportunity to exact swift justice. Sort of like how things were in single-player Fallout 2.
There shouldn't be this crap where a guy can steal from you, the guards see it, and then the guards yell at you when you pull your gun out (while the thief runs off).
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Turn based combat in a town full of npc's is not the answer. Imagine having to wait for every single npc in NCR to take it's turn. A better solution would be to limit alts to three per person and make any crime inside guarded cities result in no protection from the guards for one ingame month.
Ive seen both of these ideas suggested in the past and nothing seems to change so the best advice I can give to anyone new to this server is to stay away from guarded towns unless you have business there.
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There are a few veins in this thread, so I'll address them separately.
I agree that the biggest challenge in this game is knowledge, and information. Whenever I pick up a new player, the first things I teach them are how/where to gather resources, how to craft basic weapons and ammo, where and what to hunt, how to level, and try to help them kill 10 cows for their tent. I don't like giving tents out, I don't often give out weapons/ammo/armor, but I like making them work for it. In my mind it fosters a sense of accomplishment, while teaching them the basics they need to survive in the game. The advanced stuff will come in time, if they stick around long enough to get there. Sometimes they do, often times they don't. One thing I've noticed when talking to some of those new players on Skype weeks later, is that they quit simply because they didn't find the game enjoyable. Not because it was too difficult, or PK's, or lack of content. Whatever new game was just released catches their attention more, or they have school, etc. Sure, people ragequit due to harshness, PK's, etc. But I have a feeling that the large majority of new players who stay a few days/weeks and leave, do so quietly, for no particular reason other than they move on.
New Player Day Care might be of some benefit to new players, but I don't think it'll actually raise the server numbers. There have been some good, and bad suggestions on this for a while now. Those threads are still there, if someone wants to find them. However, the Dev's have stated that it's not gonna happen, so I'll leave it at that. As far as my thought that it won't affect the sever population, refer to my previous paragraph. This game simply isn't for everyone, so people often tire of it. Giving people an easier start won't prevent that.
Lastly, the playerbase themselves. Yeah, this place is full of insufferable, know it all douchebags. So are a lot of places I've been in real life - that's how people are. I feel like the anonymity of the internet just amplifies that, and not just this game. Other games, forums, you name it... that's how people are. Nothing can be done to change this.
Also, when you really think about it... it's possible to have too many players, as well. Of course I want more people playing, I've enjoyed this game for a few years now. I hope others enjoy it as well. I would like new people to play with, and I would like a more populated wasteland. However that comes with a drawback. If the server numbers doubled, tripled, or quadrupled - so would the number of douchebags. It's naive to think that only the people playing now have filled the douchebag limit. If the playerbase grows, so will all the other good and bad things that comes with it.
A high server population, may actually make griefing, trolling, and PKing worse.
.02
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I tried to picture FOnline with a high player pop...
Then I laughed...
Then I imagined what would happen when factions had most of the gear and bluesuits were dying too fast to actually keep anything...
Then I laughed even harder at the picture in my mind of hundreds of bluesuits punching each other in NCR while the NPCs just randomly burst everything because they cannot aim such calamity properly.
It would be hilarious on the first 2 days then it would ruin the game forever.
I think something really should be done in guarded cities though, It's just too easy to create an NCR troll and steal/burst/explode until you're vilified then repeat the same crap with another character.
Why someone does that is beyond my comprehension, what could you possibly gain by throwing grenades in the bazaar all day?
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Why someone does that is beyond my comprehension, what could you possibly gain by throwing grenades in the bazaar all day?
Teh lulz. No more, no less. Personally I don't see the fun in it, and think its a deplorable practise.
I agree with Nightlock that every mmo, indeed every online community, is populated largely by know-it-all douchers, its just possible to do a whole hell of a lot more ingame trolling here.
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Turn based combat in a town full of npc's is not the answer. Imagine having to wait for every single npc in NCR to take it's turn. A better solution would be to limit alts to three per person and make any crime inside guarded cities result in no protection from the guards for one ingame month.
Ive seen both of these ideas suggested in the past and nothing seems to change so the best advice I can give to anyone new to this server is to stay away from guarded towns unless you have business there.
Well, in the old days the whole town didn't take its turn, only the folks onscreen (only the red NPCs, not the yellows; does this game mechanic no longer exist?). And yeah, there are some other issues in FOnline like the turn-base lag that should be addressed (figuring out how to get those three quest radscorpions to charge at me sometime before doomsday might yield some valuable insight).
Plus waiting for everybody to take their turn might not matter much anyhow, all I'd need is the chance to use a burst weapon on a bluesuit once at point blank range.
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Have you ever seen the police from the inner city at NCR all go charging for the bazaar? Imagine having to wait for them to all make a move before you get to shoot your target. If your sequence is higher than them then no big deal but you still have to wait for any players with higher sequence to take their shots. Including the griefer your aiming at.
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Personally I find most of the long term players of this game to be insufferable douchebags, pvp players especially.
fonline seems to attract a lot of ruthless griefers with no social skills and in a few cases legitimate metal health problems.
This is what makes Fonline great!
A form of New Player Day care would be nice- but must be rigged in a way that prevents exploiting it to make invulnerable scouts/couriers/etc.
There have been many suggestions about how to do these things.
This game seriously needs more victims.
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That sounds like a problem for the developers to figure out, since they're the ones who decided to join the town screens. I'm saying the turn-based effect should only have a limited radius affecting the parties involved...and to me it seems like a pretty simple concept that players should have the chance to defend themselves, not a bunch of excuses for why it can't be done.
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I tried to picture FOnline with a high player pop...
Then I laughed...
Then I imagined what would happen when factions had most of the gear and bluesuits were dying too fast to actually keep anything...
Then I laughed even harder at the picture in my mind of hundreds of bluesuits punching each other in NCR while the NPCs just randomly burst everything because they cannot aim such calamity properly.
You wouldn't have to put all players in the same map room; you could spawn duplicates of the same FOnline overworld and cap the number of players per map.
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You wouldn't have to put all players in the same map room; you could spawn duplicates of the same FOnline overworld and cap the number of players per map.
Instancing seems to be frowned upon by the Fonline crowd, except for some quests.
We have to have a world that is fully shared.
The griefing is partly an expression of trying to have an effect on the game world.
Instancing makes it even more phony/unreactive.
Let's just make WoF (World of Fonline)... not.
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That sounds like a problem for the developers to figure out, since they're the ones who decided to join the town screens. I'm saying the turn-based effect should only have a limited radius affecting the parties involved...and to me it seems like a pretty simple concept that players should have the chance to defend themselves, not a bunch of excuses for why it can't be done.
So a tag-team could create a turn-based bubble with a decoy alt then snipe from outside of it.
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We should probably get rid of guarded locations alltogether. It's just not right that I sometimes can't shoot everyone in the face.
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Good call. Most of my characters have been in guarded cities , once and only for support perks.
I personally would like to see those guarded cities with a lot less guards , so it's a possibility to take that town over by raw force if needed , now it's close to impossible to do because how reinforcements work. If developers really want those places to be untouchable , just make guards immortal , put no PVP zone , so casual players can have their fun.
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the only problem I see is that people are dumb enough to get themselves killed in ncr. I never really understood that problem. The town is perfectly safe to do the beginners quest, shovel some shit, get awareness, hit level 2 and never come back to this town ever again.
If people seriously want to "stay" in ncr they should come (mentally) prepared or go as bluesuit. The only thing that would really help the cause is a big red banner telling everyone who installs the game how terrible ncr is.
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I personally would like to see those guarded cities with a lot less guards , so it's a possibility to take that town over by raw force if needed , now it's close to impossible to do because how reinforcements work.
Oh yeah, so you can kill even more innocent players? How about this for an idea, stopping acting like a complete ass ingame.
Maybe instead of trollin NCR all day, people should, you know, PLAY THE GAME. Perhaps help some new players out, take them hunting or some such.
I just spent an hour or so in NCR, and every person with 100HP or less got naded. That's just fracking ridiculousness.
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That place might as well not exist and i couldn't give less rats ass about it in that case than i currently do now. I am acting like an asshole , well tell me something new that i would give a fuck about. Okay ?
Learning curve speeds up and becomes larger depending on how many times a new player dies , those who don't improve and use their head to think , leave. So each time i see another rage topic about how this game is bad and unfriendly reminds me that most of the new players are degraded , they are used to common mindless games out there where the game itself is made to adapt to the player , not the player adapt to the game. This is not the common game out there.
I just spent an hour or so in NCR, and every person with 100HP or less got naded. That's just fracking ridiculousness.
This is very good , they will just learn that the place has to be avoided , because usually telling them to NOT GO TO NCR and NOT HANG AROUND to NOT DIE AND LOOSE ALL STUFF is just not enough , they don't think and experience it themselves and only then they understand.
I think i am very allowed to compare new players to animals , like dogs. Once you beat the crap out of them , they understand , until then you can tell them whatever you want.
Then again i don't sit in NCR and troll anyone.
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Then again i don't sit in NCR and troll anyone.
i do. it's pretty funny, trust me.
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I guess for you it's funny , because it's your endgame.
2238 is just one big social experiment.
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NCR is the only place strangers have conversations, it may be the barrens chat of fonline but its necessary.
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Good call. Most of my characters have been in guarded cities , once and only for support perks.
I personally would like to see those guarded cities with a lot less guards , so it's a possibility to take that town over by raw force if needed
we took junktown once,almost had NCR but devs kept spawning guards: D
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it may be the barrens chat of fonline but its necessary.
What I generally have to equate it to. It's totally foolish however.
Allow me to rehash :
NCR is the most POWERFUL city in the wastes. They do not take kindly to being peacekeepers and often shoot lowly criminals on sight. Guns would not be allowed IN ANY PART OF THE CITY. Reputation in the city SHOULD BE VERY EASY TO LOSE, as NCR citizens ARE VERY PARANOID. It should be safe to trade with the most POWERFUL CITY IN THE WASTES. It should be SAFE for NOOBZ to get their footing there, maybe meet some people WHO WILL HELP THEM.
Whats going on there now breaks continuity, immersion, and fun. If your going to act like a complete fuck, do it somewhere you may actually receive recompense, like Maropsa, or Gecko mine. What your doing now (@DeputyDope) is deplorable, and if you think that it's fun, you really need to get some help, because your seriously fucked in the head.
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NCR citizens ARE VERY PARANOID
Good news nothing has changed since i started to play , so stay focused.
almost had NCR but devs kept spawning guards: D
No you didn't almost have anything , there were no developers spawning anything. It's a feature called reinforcements , once you have killed certain amount of guards , they keep periodically spawning , forever and ever. That's a downhill battle unless you abuse ingame mechanics or have ridiculously large amount of players and well organized.
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It should be SAFE for NOOBZ to get their footing there, maybe meet some people WHO WILL HELP THEM.
You are doing it wrong (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,18977.0.html).
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NCR should have gobs of reinforcements- and NCR as well as other towns should arrrange posses when repeatedly provoked.
Guards should have "character legal" stats, though.
Militia, too.
Other NPCs as well.
We should probably get rid of guarded locations alltogether. It's just not right that I sometimes can't shoot everyone in the face.
You can shoot people in the face except in New Reno Casinos (Have to punch there).
It is all about consequence.
I just spent an hour or so in NCR, and every person with 100HP or less got naded.
That's damn funny.
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I played Fonline for two or three days, and this is exactly why I stopped playing. There is minimal information that could help a newbie to get used to the game, all I kept seeing was "shovel shit until you can afford a tent". I loved Fallout 2, but this online adaption got way too boring, way too fast. Shovel shit, try to buy a weapon, get PKed within ten minutes, start over, repeat. Fucking stupid.
The sentiment around here seems to be that abusing noobs is fun and it keeps this game elite. It's also going to ensure that this game never makes it out of beta. If you can't rely on new players to enjoy the game, build their skills and offer a challenge to existing players, the game will never grow. After several hours of monotonous shit-shoveling and several more walking from the res point to the nearest town repeatedly, I can't see myself playing this game or recommending it to anyone I know.
I played lineage 2 for years, one of the most noob-hostile, unforgiving pvps I've played, and it was still far more inviting than FOnline. I read something about "joining a faction", and perhaps that makes the game easier, but I've learned to steer clear of any mmo that treats new players like a nuisance.
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I played Fonline for two or three days, and this is exactly why I stopped playing. There is minimal information that could help a newbie to get used to the game, all I kept seeing was "shovel shit until you can afford a tent". I loved Fallout 2, but this online adaption got way too boring, way too fast. Shovel shit, try to buy a weapon, get PKed within ten minutes, start over, repeat. Fucking stupid.
The sentiment around here seems to be that abusing noobs is fun and it keeps this game elite. It's also going to ensure that this game never makes it out of beta. If you can't rely on new players to enjoy the game, build their skills and offer a challenge to existing players, the game will never grow. After several hours of monotonous shit-shoveling and several more walking from the res point to the nearest town repeatedly, I can't see myself playing this game or recommending it to anyone I know.
I played lineage 2 for years, one of the most noob-hostile, unforgiving pvps I've played, and it was still far more inviting than FOnline. I read something about "joining a faction", and perhaps that makes the game easier, but I've learned to steer clear of any mmo that treats new players like a nuisance.
You're doing it wrong, the first thing you should do is find a one-sided Patrol vs. Ganger encounter to get yourself equipment / trade-bait. Once you have a shotgun and a little ammo, killing ten brahmin is easy and then you have your tent.
Another way to rapid success would be to go after apples in random encounters, you can rack up a hundred and get 1400 in store credit in no time flat.
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yes u are doing it wrong, dont try just delete the game
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fonline is not user friendly i guess:,(
No, it's not. Get used to it, just try to enjoy the game, and if you fail, don't spam the forum. And above all, don't spam the forum if you're not even playing. Seriously, all those people who always complain so much about the game (and especially those who complain about devs not playing), but keep reading and posting and whining and trolling here make me laugh.
Consider this a humble message not to the one who started the thread, but for the community in general.
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No, it's not. Get used to it, just try to enjoy the game, and if you fail, don't spam the forum. And above all, don't spam the forum if you're not even playing. Seriously, all those people who always complain so much about the game (and especially those who complain about devs not playing), but keep reading and posting and whining and trolling here make me laugh.
Consider this a humble message not to the one who started the thread, but for the community in general.
i started the thread but you clearly didnt read what i wrote. im used to fonline i enjoy the game i dont fail, i actually play ,and i dont complain
i was just worry that many people leave it becouse of hard start ,and i tried to give some solutions to help them
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i started the thread but you clearly didnt read what i wrote.
Consider this a humble message not to the one who started the thread, but for the community in general.
Anyway the fact that many people try the game and don't stay indeed sucks. As I said on another thread maybe the best thing would a "tutoral area", a safer place where newly created characters must stay for sometime and where they can learn the game's basics. However, I there's such a difference between how the game is "supposed to be played" and how it is actually played, that this "newbie land" could only work as a player-driven organization instead of something implemented by devs (which don't seem to be implementing much these days anyway). But of course that demands will, time, ingame resources, etc.
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gonna post this in suggestions:
hmmm just had a suggustion idea maybe it already exists. what about:
Noob start gear: can't be traded/sold
dissapears ater 3 real days. when out on ground immedialtly dissapears.
if death respawn with gear but counter for 3 days still same as when you died.
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Anyway the fact that many people try the game and don't stay indeed sucks.
As long as we can still post what can be interpreted as "stop whining, go fuck yourself" three posts after one of these people tries to outline why he didn't stay, it apparently doesn't suck nearly enough.
gonna post this in suggestions:
hmmm just had a suggustion idea maybe it already exists. what about:
Noob start gear: can't be traded/sold
dissapears ater 3 real days. when out on ground immedialtly dissapears.
if death respawn with gear but counter for 3 days still same as when you died.
It kind of does, maciek83 came up with a similar idea earlier in the thread, that would effectively aim to achieve the same thing. While I think the idea is valid, I still think it doesn't get rid of problems with the learning curve and may just postpone the majority of the frustration. There was a bit of back and forth, may be viable to check it out, if you're interested.
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It kind of does, maciek83 came up with a similar idea earlier in the thread, that would effectively aim to achieve the same thing. While I think the idea is valid, I still think it doesn't get rid of problems with the learning curve and may just postpone the majority of the frustration. There was a bit of back and forth, may be viable to check it out, if you're interested.
thanks will check
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right now i think tent creation via command would be enough help at start so noobs dont frustrate
or better yet let the starting location not disappear and act like tent map
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hah lol :-[ indeed maciek83 had a similar idea. ;D
hmm. well maybe the way i made the start gear lock conditions could be usable.
but like you said, just having a tent would be the better solution (easy i think)
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Here is an idea. Have a city where pvp is disabled, bombs are disabled, stealing is disabled. Just one, somewhere in the middle of the map. Make it where the noobs start out at or near. Then let them learn how hard the wasteland is when they leave. This would also allow for secure trading and business to be done. Sorta like a care bear zone. And new players would stay because they would see the more seasoned players in a safe place. Not blowing there heads off or stealing from them ect ect.
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or better yet let the starting location not disappear and act like tent map
That one actually gets a big +1 from me.
Could be temporal location, thus easily explained in context of lore (just in case anyone cares about that).
Remember that Lorraine character? Fix quest, put her on that map, add a few tutorial NPCs, maybe a basic trader (one with dialog that actually explains why he's not buying some of your stuff) and you'd get a first safe location, an easier way to obtain some basic stuff and a tutorial section that clues new players in on some intricacies of the game.
I think in that context you could also incorporate the free items you mentioned or make them ridiculously easy to get. Because in that situation you'd immediately have another NPC standing right next to the itemgiver, who will clue you in on how to craft a better one. First one may even point you to the other. So you'd get some basic stuff for little to no effort and are offered a bit of information on what to do.
Depending on how hard that is to implement, that would cover pretty much all the angles, wouldn't it?
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Here is an idea. Have a city where pvp is disabled, bombs are disabled, stealing is disabled. Just one, somewhere in the middle of the map. Make it where the noobs start out at or near. Then let them learn how hard the wasteland is when they leave. This would also allow for secure trading and business to be done. Sorta like a care bear zone. And new players would stay because they would see the more seasoned players in a safe place. Not blowing there heads off or stealing from them ect ect.
hmmm at first i was like sounds good..but i think it would just turn into the beg zone. "give me lazers+ ammo please"
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That one actually gets a big +1 from me.
Could be temporal location, thus easily explained in context of lore (just in case anyone cares about that).
Remember that Lorraine character? Fix quest, put her on that map, add a few tutorial NPCs, maybe a basic trader (one with dialog that actually explains why he's not buying some of your stuff) and you'd get a first safe location, an easier way to obtain some basic stuff and a tutorial section that clues new players in on some intricacies of the game.
I think in that context you could also incorporate the free items you mentioned or make them ridiculously easy to get. Because in that situation you'd immediately have another NPC standing right next to the itemgiver, who will clue you in on how to craft a better one. First one may even point you to the other. So you'd get some basic stuff for little to no effort and are offered a bit of information on what to do.
Depending on how hard that is to implement, that would cover pretty much all the angles, wouldn't it?
yeess 8) something like that . private starting location, maybe not free items but trader would buy healing powders and ropes for basic weapons and restock sometimes but not with caps
Here is an idea. Have a city where pvp is disabled, bombs are disabled, stealing is disabled. Just one, somewhere in the middle of the map. Make it where the noobs start out at or near. Then let them learn how hard the wasteland is when they leave. This would also allow for secure trading and business to be done. Sorta like a care bear zone. And new players would stay because they would see the more seasoned players in a safe place. Not blowing there heads off or stealing from them ect ect.
big no no , no magical place please
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yeess 8) something like that . private starting location, maybe not free items but trader would buy healing powders and ropes for basic weapons and restock sometimes but not with caps
well like i said i think also that a starting private location is a good idea.
maybe you should post a topic for it in suggestions?
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Here is an idea. Have a city where pvp is disabled, bombs are disabled, stealing is disabled. Just one, somewhere in the middle of the map. Make it where the noobs start out at or near. Then let them learn how hard the wasteland is when they leave. This would also allow for secure trading and business to be done. Sorta like a care bear zone. And new players would stay because they would see the more seasoned players in a safe place. Not blowing there heads off or stealing from them ect ect.
Okay, here's the thing about that idea:
Since stealing as well as killing is disabled, that place would become the de facto location for all sorts of player trades and most likely player socialization. You'll most likely find the vast majority of players hanging out there instead of NCR or whereever they go these days. There's a strong possibility that that is going to severly put the breaks on thieves or at least a significant segment of them. Thieves as in players who enjoy to play a certain way and add certain dynamics to the game. I'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarilly, but I think that would be a change that has to be considered from more angles than just "what does this do for new players".
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Here is an idea. Have a city where pvp is disabled, bombs are disabled, stealing is disabled.
no way.
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no way.
How would it hurt your gameplay?
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How would it hurt your gameplay?
it will make the game more boring? part of this game's unpredictability and fun comes from doing insane shit, like blowing stuff up, or bursting random people in protected cities.
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it will make the game more boring? part of this game's unpredictability and my fun comes from doing insane shit, like blowing stuff up in protected cities.
FYP. You're not blowing "stuff" up, you're blowing players up. So let's phrase this correctly. Just a wild guess but the blown up players probably don't have a ton of fun in the process. Not to put too much of a fine point on this, but it may be worth considering what the long term implications of that fun might be.
For the record, I'm actually with you. I don't think it's a good idea, either, and I'd be all for that unpredictability you mentioned, if it was within a reasonable frame (which suicide bombing imo is). Idea is valid enough to give it a few seconds of thought, though, and consider what the sentences we're tossing around here actually mean and more importantly, why ideas like that repeatedly pop up in the first place.
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It's just absurd, it ain't even funny at all.
To be precise - imagine you load brahmin cart with something - like resource or whatever, and go to NCR. Then you begin to sell it to other players.
For anyone who never played Fonline this sounds pretty realistic right?
But in actual game it'd look like this - you are bursted in a minute, everyone who tries to bring anything to trade with you is surrounded by pack of pickpockets and on top of this everyone is trying his lockpick on your cart.
Thus while NPCs are almost unaffected, there is no way to trade in bazaar. Quite ironic.
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Never had problems while trading at bazaar and always had them when i wanted to have. Just play smarter than thieves, bursters and bombers. Its kind of funny game in fonline
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it will make the game more boring? part of this game's unpredictability and fun comes from doing insane shit, like blowing stuff up, or bursting random people in protected cities.
But that's just pointless. Only people who get killed in safe towns are beginner nuubs or bluesuits. Older players don't get fooled there because they can watch out, have powerful alts able to deal with those trolls or don't even visit safe towns.
Safe town suicide killing is also bad feature all in all because the target can't shoot first. He has to wait for enemy's initiative before he can defend himself because guards will shoot him if he shoots first. If players want to settle their issues, npcs must not interfere. So by that logic either players must not be able to harm each other or they have to be able to do it freely.
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But that's just pointless. Only people who get killed in safe towns are beginner nuubs or bluesuits. Older players don't get fooled there because they can watch out, have powerful alts able to deal with those trolls or don't even visit safe towns.
really? older players can't get killed? pre-wipe i gave 4 rocket launchers to 4 different guys and told them to attack the same guy at the same time. so it's not only POSSIBLE, it's quite easy. (with a little help that is)
nubs should start learning already that instead of begging for mausers in NCR, they should go farm some themselves, or at least ASK what a proper combat build is.
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As long as we can still post what can be interpreted as "stop whining, go fuck yourself" three posts after one of these people tries to outline why he didn't stay, it apparently doesn't suck nearly enough.
Hmm, maybe I misunderstood, but this sounds like you think I'm saying newbies should "stop whining and go fuck themselves". This is not the case.
I already explained my opinion in another thread:
I like helping newbies, but mostly because I feel like I'm doing something good for the server, because I think giving a hand to newbies encourages them to stay.
However, it sometimes can be extremely boring/annoying, especially when newbies have no fucking idea at all about how the game works (sometimes they don't know how to tag someone, sometimes they don't understand that as you're leading the party they should run after you if we get an random encounter instead of running away in a random direction, etc). Also sometimes they believe that the fact you're helping means they're your king or something. This is not only annoying for the newbie-helper, it's also bad for the newbie too. You have to be relatively self sufficient in this game (its mechanics don't encourage real teamplay except for gang pvp and for doing some quests anyway).
As a result, I often wonder if I am doing the right thing by helping that one newbie I just met. Why? Because sometimes it's obvious that they didn't and don't want to make any effort to learn shit by themselves reading the wiki or anything. Sometimes they expect you to explain everything. This is extremely negative for the reasons I mentioned above. Of course this does not *always* happen, and sometimes I can have a good time with them because they're cool people, etc.
My personal conclusion is that helping newbies is pretty much a Russian Roulette because that random newbie could be an awesome person willing to make an effort and learn the game, and he/she could even become your "friend", or it could be a completely annoying teenager who clearly refuses to make any effort to learn the game and is convinced you must help him with everything. This means that helping random newbies does not always help the server.
This game is not newbie-friendly, but it's not completely newbie-helper-friendly either. What this game needs imo is a "noob/tutorial zone" where you can learn stuff while playing. I don't want to whine about devs but we must admit that there's an important difference between how the game is supposed to be played (as Primon9 said, that "shovel shit until you can afford a tent" bullshit) and how the game is actually played, so this "noob zone" would probably work a lot better if it was run by good-willed players.
Think it's impossible? I don't think it is. Last year I was in charge of C88's recruit base, some cave in the south were new members, most of them new players, were added. We had to deal with leechers and annoying people but it pretty much worked. We could also ask the woodcutter Wichura about how the Street Queens group works.
Wichura suggested the Ghost farm to be turned into a newbie-zone (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,18977.msg157428.html#msg157428) but there was no answer and such a project can't work with the current game mechanics.
Such a place would be awesome as it'll make it easier for everyone. It'd need people and organization, but I think it'd totally beat any individual act of helping newbies.
So, while things remain the same, it's just "Get used to it, just try to enjoy the game..." - This doesn't mean I won't help any newbie anymore, but I definitely won't be as nice as I've been before, and I definitely won't give them anything for free, I will try to make them work their way out of "noobness" instead of wasting time typing walls of texts with info you can find in the wiki.
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one thing i noticed,many noobs want to be the badass of the wastes... from the start. they want to kill people and are supprised by reality that till lvl24 and many support alts your just a cannon fodder ,and even finally you are not more than one of many. but i guess the same is in other mmos? here its just more overhelming for them
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one thing i noticed,many noobs want to be the badass of the wastes... from the start. they want to kill people and are supprised by reality that till lvl24 and many support alts your just a cannon fodder ,and even finally you are not more than one of many. but i guess the same is in other mmos? here its just more overhelming for them
well said.
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[snip]
Then maybe there is a misunderstanding, because I'd agree on most points. Although there's a few things to add/elaborate on.
I get both noobvariants you described, too, however I'm not quite as willing to characterize it as Russian Roulette, because I have absolutely nothing to loose here besides time. Maybe you think that's time you could spend more productively elsewhere, maybe you're right, not my place to judge. I agree, it can be annoying, if people are not willing to put in effort, but at least in my experience that goes something like this:
"I can has x?"
"Sure, wait here, I'll get it."
"I can has y, too?"
"Nah, I think we're done."
Compare that to:
"I can has x?"
"Sure, wait here, I'll get it."
"Okay, now I has x, but I have no idea what to do now. Can you help me out?"
First example takes ten minutes tops, it's the second one that requires some time. And more effort, too, because these guys are often going to ask a ton of questions, while I'm taking them around, to the point where it actually can get hard to keep up with them. Now I consider that a good thing, but to me personally that serves as an indicator of people who are willing to learn requiring a lot more investment than people who want to get everything handed to them and if I think about my time spent trying to help people, those where it's pointless to do so make up for the minority of actual time invested. So I don't really get your point about annoyance. I'd concede it happens, but at least in my experience the positives far outweigh the negatives.
I give you the point about "doing the right thing", though. In fact I think it is way more beneficial to make them work for their progress. I'm absolutely guilty of often not acting on that belief, but again, the ones willing to learn will often ask out of their own volition about all that stuff, so it kind of evens out.
And I will bag on the part about information for a long time to come, because I am convinced that's a big issue for newbies. Take for example the stuff that frustrates you, when new players have no fucking idea about it, like tagging and how to propperly follow the leader out of an encounter. When I started out, all of that was new to me, too, and I had absolutely no clue about that. And it's been a while, but I am not entirely sure how I even was supposed to know about it. I guess it's mentioned somewhere, but that has its own set of problems, more on that in a bit. So if I meet a new player, I am basically fully expecting those issues to pop up. And that's for people who actually have played the older Fallout titles. From my understanding, there are some new players who didn't, so they have a much bigger set of lacking knowledge to go through, but to be fair, how would they know?
And to get back to getting a baseline of information from the wiki/forum, to be frank, I'm very close to actively advising new players not to read them. I've already been through the process of talking with new players, who actually were willing to put in the effort, whose ideas about gameplay mechanics I more than once had to readjust, because they were reading wiki/forum. The wiki can be a great tool - if you have someone who can actually confirm whether something is still correct or not or even point you to the page you need to read. Since you seem to consider yourself as someone who tries to help new players, yes, that would basically be our job. I'd prefer if it wasn't, too, but realistically how would a new player know, which wiki articles are outdated or which forum posts are utter nonsense?
All that said, the main point about my remark was actually a different one and since you care about the server, you may just agree, if I can manage to get rid of the misunderstanding:
Helping out new players, so they are more likely to stay in the game is all fine and well. Well, it's great actually. But as far as I'm concerned it may just be equally important to listen to people, who don't play. This game is not for everyone and that will account for most of the drop outs (or maybe not, just a guess), however there may be a good reason they stopped playing and I don't think it's a good idea to broadly dismiss their feedback.
one thing i noticed,many noobs want to be the badass of the wastes... from the start. they want to kill people and are supprised by reality that till lvl24 and many support alts your just a cannon fodder ,and even finally you are not more than one of many. but i guess the same is in other mmos? here its just more overhelming for them
See, I think there's a substantial difference to other MMOs in that fonline is a mod for a game they usually know and that has highly fed into the mindset you describe. I mean, you're playing "The Chosen One" in Fallout 2 and while it's not necessarily a walk in the park the game plays into that notion fairly consistently. Even if you would jump into fonline not expecting that extreme, I'd assume that it's safe to expect doing somewhat decently for yourself. That's what I mean when I talk about mindset readjustment, because as far as I can tell, the more stuck in that power fantasy new players were, the more likely they'd quit after a few hours. Those that expected nothing or even expected to get their ass kicked usually stayed around. But then again, I can understand comming from Fallout 2 and expecting something at least similar. Sure, you can read about that harsh nonsense all over the place, but that's not much to replace the understanding of a game that had years to settle into their brains. Can't really fault them for being unprepared to deal with that shift in tone to the necessary extent right away.
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Maliceson and eternauta, I've had similar experiences with nuubs: help them too much and they just keep asking more.
What I've noticed is that nuubs get depressed when I tell them what this game is about: want something? Get an alt.
For example a nuub asks what's the best way to get some pvp gear so he can join me and my pallies in pvp operations. At this point I ask what does he have. The nuub answers: a lvl 10 pvp character and a tent. At that point I sigh deep and tell him to do some of the following:
- Level bos or enclave thief to get some superstims and ammo to sell in shops
- Level a barter char to sell that ammo and superstims
- Level a crafter who can craft helmets and basically everything
- Level your pvp char
- At some point, get a personal base
Those are the min. reqs I'd say. And it's already 4 alts. That dude is going to spend his first weeks levelling and farming.
I'd say fonline pvp is like a real world army. You get these gung-ho rambos who are shaking to do some pew pew but they get upset because before that they have to clean toilets and peel potatoes for the first 3 weeks. In fonline you have to farm and level alts.
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In fonline you have to farm and level alts.
a.k.a. do some really boring shit.
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a.k.a. do some really boring shit.
a.k.a. if u dont like gtfo :)
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- Level bos or enclave thief to get some superstims and ammo to sell in shops
- Level a barter char to sell that ammo and superstims
- Level a crafter who can craft helmets and basically everything
- Level your pvp char
- At some point, get a personal base
This only applies to one purpose PvP ape characters...
I would say its possible to have characters that can support themselves its just that majority of players sees only one aspect of Fonline. And refuse to play it other way.
Sure PvP is fun but making one purpose support chars + a few combat chars to be able to use fast relog efficiently is a bore. Thats why I don't have characters like that.
I'm happy that my characters are able to stand on their own and they don't need help from my other characters to get themselves gear though occasionally I cheat a bit and help them...
About the base well I would say that that point is a real valid one, having access to a base is quite useful:)
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a.k.a. if u dont like gtfo :)
that's what 2/3 of the player base did
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This game is not hard.
-Make Character
-Die a few times
-Read fonline2238 Wiki
-Browse forums
-load FEF on Nitue.net
-Create A new character with your new found knowledge
-Fun
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This only applies to one purpose PvP ape characters...
Man look, when a player joins a faction that does pvp (it's pretty much the only thing they do together) he wants to do what the others are doing. If all your new friends do something, you probably want to participate too. But to participate, you need those tools to level up and maintain your pvp character.
A guy who just wants to join his pals on pvp operations doesn't care about anything else than getting what it takes to join his team and have some fun in unsafe towns. So he wants the gear and chars fast. The way I explained to get stuff is the fastest way I can think of. If this guy started softly and levelled weird hybrid chars to get stuff and advance in the game, it would take him a month to get started and join what his pals are doing. Levelling alts is simply the best way to do stuff. And when you want to reach a goal, you use the best method.
Easy way would be that the older players hand out a char and all the gear for free. But that's not how it goes because the nuub wouldn't learn anything and would be asking for more right after. Best players are self-suffiecient and it's always fun to play with guys who aren't asking for favours but can handle themselves. Best friends are those who don't need economical support from each other.
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a.k.a. if u dont like gtfo :)
a.k.a. perteks saying the same shit over and over again, like a robot.
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A guy who just wants to join his pals on pvp operations doesn't care about anything else than getting what it takes to join his team and have some fun in unsafe towns. So he wants the gear and chars fast. The way I explained to get stuff is the fastest way I can think of. If this guy started softly and levelled weird hybrid chars to get stuff and advance in the game, it would take him a month to get started and join what his pals are doing. Levelling alts is simply the best way to do stuff. And when you want to reach a goal, you use the best method.
Not to argue cause you do have a point though I think my viewpoint is ok too I find the leveling of one purpose chars boring while I have quite a fun with the leveling of hybrid chars thats why my choice goes that way. And I think they would provide more fun to a starter player. After all its possible to make hybrid chars that are able to fight in PvP too and its not always necessary to use the best gear its possible to have fun with easier to obtain items and its quite easy to make characters with enough skills to use almost all type of weapons.
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avv! It's like you're saying exactly what i am thinking. So i agree with you 100%.
When i started this game last year, a few of us bought some bases and started recruiting. We'd add new players/members to the bases and poured out our time to help them get going. It was too much. They got access to resources they never had to fund, and they got hours and hours of help from us when we needed that time ourselves. Later nearly every single guy quit due to the natural attrition process.
This year i think of it backwards: meet people and get them working on self-sufficiency first (ie a private base and a crafter etc). Then once we see who is left after the labor of it all has boiled the group down to only those willing to work this hard, ah then we can get a faction base together because by then we have only those members who work for it, are willing to stick to it, and earn their way.
I love helping people - it's one of the most rewarding things we can do in this game and in RL. But if you help someone too much, you rob them of their chance to earn it themselves, and when they quit, where did your time go?
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I would say its possible to have characters that can support themselves its just that majority of players sees only one aspect of Fonline. And refuse to play it other way.
Levelling alts is simply the best way to do stuff. And when you want to reach a goal, you use the best method.
I think this is a bit of a moot point that shouldn't be ignored completely, but is not entirely a wrong/right decision in terms of noob friendliness.
For example, it's entirely possible to roll a selfsustained char, and at least in my case, after a bit of experimentation and toying around with the planner, it turned out that a hybrid build was superior to a specialized one and I would assume, factoring in ease of use and reaction time, even several specialized alts. That said, I won't claim this is a good idea for PvP. It's actually not even a topic that comes up often for me, but when it does I'll admit that's out of my league. Basically it actually comes down to the goals of the new player.
That's not groundbreaking stuff and barely warrants a post, but there's a bit of hybrid-vs-alt debate smell in the air and I think there's no need to really go into that, so it may be beneficial to just establish outright that there are newcommers who potentially fall on both sides of the fence.
What I've noticed is that nuubs get depressed when I tell them what this game is about: want something? Get an alt.
This, however, isn't really surprising imo. Blame it on expectations set by Fallout 2. Alts don't even exist in that game, the transition from that to fonline, where a lot of vets tell you that you need a bunch of alts (and depending on what the goal is, they are probably even right), is probably a bit of a shock for some players. It certainly goes against the expectations that players have, who are looking forward to Fallout online in the purest sense.
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Speaking of "User Friendly", is the server offline at the moment? Thank you for your time.
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Speaking of "User Friendly", is the server offline at the moment? Thank you for your time.
Yes it is.
This is a useful site to check: http://fonline-status.narod.ru/en
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Not to argue cause you do have a point though I think my viewpoint is ok too I find the leveling of one purpose chars boring while I have quite a fun with the leveling of hybrid chars thats why my choice goes that way.
You can have that viewpoint, I started the game like that. No hurry anywhere, just learn stuff at your own speed.
But if you strip all preferences and feelings players have, this game boils down to items and characters. Items and characters make us able to do stuff. Without either, we got nothing. The one who has both fastest, gets to do more and does it better. You can't balance a game by observing player's viewpoints. There has to be at least 2 things: something everyone wants and something everyone doesn't want, victory and loss. In our case it's gaining and losing items since character's death doesn't mean anything.
And I think they would provide more fun to a starter player. After all its possible to make hybrid chars that are able to fight in PvP too and its not always necessary to use the best gear its possible to have fun with easier to obtain items and its quite easy to make characters with enough skills to use almost all type of weapons.
For example, it's entirely possible to roll a selfsustained char, and at least in my case, after a bit of experimentation and toying around with the planner, it turned out that a hybrid build was superior to a specialized one and I would assume, factoring in ease of use and reaction time, even several specialized alts. That said, I won't claim this is a good idea for PvP. It's actually not even a topic that comes up often for me, but when it does I'll admit that's out of my league. Basically it actually comes down to the goals of the new player.
But it's not smart. It's not reasonable in terms of mechanics. Making a hybrid character is like using an underpowered gun in fps game or doing intentionally stupid strategies in rts. When you get a royal flush in poker, do you keep it or scramble it for the sake of it?
My point here is that the mechanics and fun don't go hand to hand. Fun is slow and ineffective, and not even fun for all (apes, powergamers). Effective is boring and repetitive. When the most effective and fun meet, you have a good feature.
There's no point discussion hybrid vs alts. I got few examples right here:
- max effective sneak is 300, not much room for anything else
- you want to know if there's a restock in sf tanker. You're in VC. Which one is faster: log to a shop checker who is inside the tanker or travel to sf?
- you want to know if there's something in reno. Do you travel there or log to your townchecker?
Alts allow you to travel lightning fast.
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Thank you so much, Enzo ;)
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Thank you so much, Enzo ;)
you don't really need to visit that link. just go to the homepage of the forum and scroll down.
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But it's not smart. It's not reasonable in terms of mechanics. Making a hybrid character is like using an underpowered gun in fps game or doing intentionally stupid strategies in rts. When you get a royal flush in poker, do you keep it or scramble it for the sake of it?
My point here is that the mechanics and fun don't go hand to hand. Fun is slow and ineffective, and not even fun for all (apes, powergamers). Effective is boring and repetitive. When the most effective and fun meet, you have a good feature.
There's no point discussion hybrid vs alts.
I pretty much completely agree. Thing is, I don't think there's a predetermined sweet spot for fun vs efficiency, but it depends on the goals and expectations of the individual player and how much efficiency they can realistically sacrifice. For example, I think Hybrids can be completely viable for players interested in PvE or even highly preferable for those interested in player interactions. I won't doubt, though, that every point not allocated to the main purpose of a build will put it at a severe disadvantage in PvP or any form of competitive function in general.
The whole point I brought that up was to state that both facets exist when it comes to new players and any advice or information on that topic is a bit more flexible and somewhat dependant on that player's goals and expectations, just so we don't get too sidetracked into that kind of discussion. Beyond establishing that, there's no point in going into hybrids vs alts, I fully agree.
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You can have that viewpoint, I started the game like that. No hurry anywhere, just learn stuff at your own speed.
But if you strip all preferences and feelings players have, this game boils down to items and characters. Items and characters make us able to do stuff. Without either, we got nothing. The one who has both fastest, gets to do more and does it better. You can't balance a game by observing player's viewpoints. There has to be at least 2 things: something everyone wants and something everyone doesn't want, victory and loss. In our case it's gaining and losing items since character's death doesn't mean anything.
But it's not smart. It's not reasonable in terms of mechanics. Making a hybrid character is like using an underpowered gun in fps game or doing intentionally stupid strategies in rts. When you get a royal flush in poker, do you keep it or scramble it for the sake of it?
My point here is that the mechanics and fun don't go hand to hand. Fun is slow and ineffective, and not even fun for all (apes, powergamers). Effective is boring and repetitive. When the most effective and fun meet, you have a good feature.
There's no point discussion hybrid vs alts. I got few examples right here:
- max effective sneak is 300, not much room for anything else
- you want to know if there's a restock in sf tanker. You're in VC. Which one is faster: log to a shop checker who is inside the tanker or travel to sf?
- you want to know if there's something in reno. Do you travel there or log to your townchecker?
Alts allow you to travel lightning fast.
You have to travel anyway though depending on where your base and resupply points are located at. Travel isn't exactly a bad thing either; if you're a hybrid crafter you can do some PvE along your trade route for easy exp. and don't have to suffer the monotony so much of being a specialist cripple.
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You have to travel anyway though depending on where your base and resupply points are located at. Travel isn't exactly a bad thing either; if you're a hybrid crafter you can do some PvE along your trade route for easy exp. and don't have to suffer the monotony so much of being a specialist cripple.
The thing is that the shop checker gets the info whether or not to go in sf tanker in first place. Once you know there's a restock, you log to your barter alt, fill its inventory with sufficient ammount of bartering gear and drive to sf with a car.
Doing pve along your travels is just foolish. Mistake that nuubs make while travelling is that they don't concentrate on one thing but stray from their path and get interested in unrelated things. That gets them killed or delay them and someone else grabs the restock.
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Malice Song and avv thanks for the answers. I would reply point by point but it's not worth it, especially when I pretty much agree with the ideas you've explained, also, after all, we are all just typing long walls of texts that don't change anything.
Maybe I have changed a bit and I'm simply not as patient and nice as I used to be, maybe after gaining some experience in this game (I am thinking about what Malice Song said, we were all noobs at first) I have become less tolerant with newbies and I have more stuff in common with powergamers that I want to admit :D Maybe I am just not the best newbie-helper around, maybe other players are better at it. And maybe my opinions are too much based on my personal experience and not on anything like "statistics".
But still I am convinced that the best thing that could happen to this game (sticking to what's possible imo) is a tutorial and/or special area for new players.
And Malice Song, about what you said, that we should also listen to the guys that leave the game, yeah I never said/thought anything against that, but it's just true that 1) many people simply quit because this isn't Fallout 1/2 (understandable somehow, but it's like expecting the movie to be just like the novel), and 2) the actual act of reading those posts and doing something after that is imo the devs' task, not ours. I am not saying we shouldn't care about it, what I mean is that although the playerbase "creates" part of the game, we're not a homogeneous group at all and therefore we can't really make a decision after reading what those people say. Devs, however, are the ones that make the tools the playerbase uses to shape the game.
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i have always played a hybrid character since i started to play Fonline.
He has 203 smlg, 100 reapir, 100 speech, 120 LP and 120 OD.
163 hp. with 1 lifegiver.
base PE is 6, uses smokes for a PE of 9 with sharpshooter perk
9 AP.
BROF perk. limb shot and normal shot in 1 turn with 223 pistol.
20% crit chance
Better crits
SMLG crafter
Armor crafter.
lvl 1 EW crafter.
Uses lockpicks.
BPs ive found are- metal mk2, needler pistol, super cattle prod, mega powerfist and plasma grenades.
120 pp.
I rencently did a Unity hunt with him in RT with 2 others that were using AR, i was using D eagle ext clip, i was expecting to get severly owned. Low and behold he knockdown and crippled them quite well, leaving them exsposed for the bursters and managed to go on to do 2 more enc without dying.
Hybrid for the win.
So in short, alts suck. Just reading how many alts people use makes me roll my eyes, a shop checker alt are F*@$%ing serious.
Just for the lulz here is an fonline lol pic from avv, that i love.
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6119/buildrofl.jpg)
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I would reply point by point but it's not worth it, especially when I pretty much agree with the ideas you've explained, also, after all, we are all just typing long walls of texts that don't change anything.
Rhetorical excercise.
But still I am convinced that the best thing that could happen to this game (sticking to what's possible imo) is a tutorial and/or special area for new players.
Would agree at this point.
And Malice Song, about what you said, that we should also listen to the guys that leave the game, yeah I never said/thought anything against that, but it's just true that 1) many people simply quit because this isn't Fallout 1/2 (understandable somehow, but it's like expecting the movie to be just like the novel), and 2) the actual act of reading those posts and doing something after that is imo the devs' task, not ours. I am not saying we shouldn't care about it, what I mean is that although the playerbase "creates" part of the game, we're not a homogeneous group at all and therefore we can't really make a decision after reading what those people say. Devs, however, are the ones that make the tools the playerbase uses to shape the game.
Fair enough, then I'll chalk that one up to really unfortunate timing. Have to disagree with your second point here, though. What we can do is enter dialog on the basis of such posts (kind of like we're doing now) and provide direct feedback. For one thing this may be beneficial to the initiator and either may change his decision or confirm that the game really isn't for them. It would also provide a direct response to criticism from the player base and I think that would make the act of the actual decision on the devs' part more rooted in the perception of the playerbase. By which I don't mean that the devs are necessarilly supposed to do what the playerbase wants, far from it, but I think it is safe to say that the devs are less in touch with day to day gameplay than the players (and quite understandably so). If we as a playerbase can identify and articulate situations, what problems exist within those, what could be potential worthwhile adjustements, etc, instead of ignoring criticism or responding to ideas with nothing but "that's terrible", then I think that could be valuable design feedback.
Hybrid for the win.
Yeah, that's kind of what I hoped we could avoid. Partly because it sits right at home with the topic "Do we want to get rid of alts alltogether", which is a pretty substantial one and tied to fundamental changes in gameplay mechanics. Anyplace else it tends to overtake the conversation, while, with the current mechanics in place, boils down to personal preference. Rest assured, I personally don't like alts myself, but the point here was that they're simply more effective (and there are not a lot of situations where I'd argue against that) and how that affects new players. The point wasn't that hybrids aren't viable, of course they are. But I believe that newbies fall on both sides of the argument, which would change my personal recommendation of whether to use them or not (granted, most of the time I advocate the "not" part - personal bias), which makes the hybrid-vs-alts discussion somewhat pointless in this context.
The pic is hilarious, though. Also the fact that you apparently effectively rp a smoker.
a shop checker alt are F*@$%ing serious.
That kind of illustrates the point. Shop checker alt may be ridiculous from your point of view, but try filling 210pp with capable companions on a hybrid. Obviously it is possible, if sanity is not a concern, but this is a clear cut case of alts being obviously more effective and I don't think there's room for an argument. And unless my reading comprehension is lacking, that was the whole point: the superior efficiency of alts from a pure mechanics standpoint and how that revelation affects new players who might expect an RPG in the style of Fallout.
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i have always played a hybrid character since i started to play Fonline.
He has 203 smlg, 100 reapir, 100 speech, 120 LP and 120 OD.
163 hp. with 1 lifegiver.
base PE is 6, uses smokes for a PE of 9 with sharpshooter perk
9 AP.
BROF perk. limb shot and normal shot in 1 turn with 223 pistol.
20% crit chance
Better crits
SMLG crafter
Armor crafter.
lvl 1 EW crafter.
Uses lockpicks.
BPs ive found are- metal mk2, needler pistol, super cattle prod, mega powerfist and plasma grenades.
120 pp.
I rencently did a Unity hunt with him in RT with 2 others that were using AR, i was using D eagle ext clip, i was expecting to get severly owned. Low and behold he knockdown and crippled them quite well, leaving them exsposed for the bursters and managed to go on to do 2 more enc without dying.
Hybrid for the win.
So in short, alts suck. Just reading how many alts people use makes me roll my eyes, a shop checker alt are F*@$%ing serious.
Just for the lulz here is an fonline lol pic from avv, that i love.
Looks great but what skills did you tag?
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So in short, alts suck. Just reading how many alts people use makes me roll my eyes, a shop checker alt are F*@$%ing serious.
Then your eyes must be spinning like a gyroscope.
But there isn't a designed way to achieve stuff in this game so players have to figure it out by themselves. There is an expected way and unexpected way however. For example when nuub asks how to get caps, the answer is often: sell spears. At that point I sigh deep. The faster way is to either level a slaver and grind that slaver quest in den or grind the stranded rust quest. Because the den slavery quest has a character-based cooldown, it's better to level multiple slaver chars to bypass the cooldown.
I'd say the way players play the game and how they are expected to play it has gone out of control.
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The thing is that the shop checker gets the info whether or not to go in sf tanker in first place. Once you know there's a restock, you log to your barter alt, fill its inventory with sufficient ammount of bartering gear and drive to sf with a car.
Doing pve along your travels is just foolish. Mistake that nuubs make while travelling is that they don't concentrate on one thing but stray from their path and get interested in unrelated things. That gets them killed or delay them and someone else grabs the restock.
I agree it's good for scouting; however for me it's just easier to load up on what I know the merchants like and just head to where there's more than one type of item I need. Speaking from a newbie POV, it's not such a big deal if they don't have caps if I can get my first plasma rifle or some micro fusion cells. So what if it isn't as efficient as power-thieving or blueprint hunting or whatever? I'm enjoying myself with a natural build-up and I'm not sinking a whole bunch of time into making alts before understanding the basic game mechanics.
I'll tell you why it's a good idea to roll into your encounters naturally too. Say I have a one track mind, I'm just going to farm junk. In many of those city encounters I'm not finding junk, therefore I'm just wasting time. However, I've noticed whenever I go out looking for wood; I have a harder time finding wood; I find junk instead. So rather than just hunting for one item, I take whatever comes along; whether it be junk, wood, fruit, or electronic parts. It will all be useful at some point in time and by taking it now I won't have to make a special trip later.
I'll even buy junk or spears if they appear in a storefront, if it so happens that what I'm trading in is less tedious to produce.
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Then your eyes must be spinning like a gyroscope.
But there isn't a designed way to achieve stuff in this game so players have to figure it out by themselves. There is an expected way and unexpected way however. For example when nuub asks how to get caps, the answer is often: sell spears. At that point I sigh deep. The faster way is to either level a slaver and grind that slaver quest in den or grind the stranded rust quest. Because the den slavery quest has a character-based cooldown, it's better to level multiple slaver chars to bypass the cooldown.
I'd say the way players play the game and how they are expected to play it has gone out of control.
Okay, on slavery, what kind of sell prices do you get? What are the odds of your slaves disappearing and getting killed as you cross the world map? Here's the kicker: How much time have you invested on your slave alts and what are you looking to purchase with all the caps you have accumulated?
And is this purchasing power superior to the alternatives, such as:
- Thieving BoS and Navarro
- Hunting Blueprints
- PvE patrols, Unity, etc.
- Or just running around and crafting easy stuff to sell to merchants
Also what happens to your family of alts if a server wipe occurs?
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Okay, on slavery, what kind of sell prices do you get? What are the odds of your slaves disappearing and getting killed as you cross the world map? Here's the kicker: How much time have you invested on your slave alts and what are you looking to purchase with all the caps you have accumulated?
And is this purchasing power superior to the alternatives, such as:
- Thieving BoS and Navarro
- Hunting Blueprints
- PvE patrols, Unity, etc.
- Or just running around and crafting easy stuff to sell to merchants
Also what happens to your family of alts if a server wipe occurs?
slaves sell for 100-200 caps. slave runs can be done every 2 hours for between 1-9k caps. I use this money to buy mercs/cars/bases since getting caps from vendors is highly impractical for the amounts you need to buy anything of value. If you want to trade for vendor items go thief, if you want gear farm encounters. You'll never make caps from anything but slavery though. Make a turn based high ap build and tag outdoor, with high pe and cautious nature you can flee anything quickly.
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Okay, on slavery, what kind of sell prices do you get? What are the odds of your slaves disappearing and getting killed as you cross the world map? Here's the kicker: How much time have you invested on your slave alts and what are you looking to purchase with all the caps you have accumulated?
You can level such character with gatling laser vs centaurs and floaters in one day. Then you go do the quest and do it as fast as you can. Then you see how long it takes aproximately to accomplish this quest and calculate how many replica alts you need to repeat it to avoid that 2h cooldown. I know people who have made hundreds of thousands caps with this quest.
And is this purchasing power superior to the alternatives, such as:
- Thieving BoS and Navarro
- Hunting Blueprints
- PvE patrols, Unity, etc.
- Or just running around and crafting easy stuff to sell to merchants
They go hand in hand.
Also what happens to your family of alts if a server wipe occurs?
Same as what happens to your items. Alts are just tools, just like items except they have a name on them.
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slaves sell for 100-200 caps. slave runs can be done every 2 hours for between 1-9k caps. I use this money to buy mercs/cars/bases since getting caps from vendors is highly impractical for the amounts you need to buy anything of value. If you want to trade for vendor items go thief, if you want gear farm encounters. You'll never make caps from anything but slavery though. Make a turn based high ap build and tag outdoor, with high pe and cautious nature you can flee anything quickly.
Sounds good on the 9k end, not so good on the 1k ;) With merchants I can get 1500 in 15 minutes, though I can see your POV for grinding pure cash in one sitting.
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Looks great but what skills did you tag?
Smlg,repair and OD.
I also took skilled trait, with this wipe it has become a very good trait since alot of non-combat perks are now mostly attainable by anyone.
My special is 5 ST, 6 PE, 7 EN, 4 CH, 5 IN, 8 AG, 5 LK.
The only thing id change is take 1 point of EN and put it on AG. I woulda been able to drink nuka for 10ap.
YOU MORON!!
just for the hell of it here's my perks list-
BROF
More criticals
Sharpshooter
Better criticals
Lifegiver x1
Even more criticals
*awareness
*Snake eater
*Ranger
*cautios nature
*Magnetic personality
*Sex appeal
*Best of a bad lot
*= support perk