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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Badger on February 27, 2011, 11:53:39 pm
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Just wanted to get this off my chest. It just doesn't work. I vote we just scrap it. I know how easily avoided it is, I just think it's stupid that I have to run around a shop while a guy in his underwear chases and repairs me. It detracts from the game. I appreciate that this is a dangerous post-apocalyptic wasteland, and that's fine. But I think full loot does that job well enough.
Here's a brief summary of everything that doesn't work about it:
No risk. Thieves are in their Vault PJs, but they can steal your assault rifle.
Know he's a thief? Tough shit. You can't do anything until the guards spot him, even if you know he's about to/already has robbed you.
Thief Alt! The associated reputation drops mean that you create a character specifically for thievery. Then you either use it to supply your main or you just use it to irritate the fuck out of people.
LOL I TROL U It irritates the hell out of players, new and old alike.
Please feel free to comment/argue against/make sweet love to one another.
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Well, what to say, agreed on all points there. Will still most likely never change. :(
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I have a thief charand even I agree with this lol
I think there just needs to be some repercussions, they steal, if they're caught, no loss for neither of the players, if they're caught but still get something, after being killed there's an high chance a guard or someone else loots him, if he isn't caught, he gets free stuff.
Problem here is that there's no loss at all for the thief.
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I agree with Badger, I think his arguments are all valid.
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Well, it would be boring if all agreed on it, so:
Thief Alt! - People make crafter alts, taxi alts... so what? Are you going to suggest disabling outdoorsman/repair/science next time? Alts are typical for 2238 and to play it, you need more than one character. Of course, you can play one character, but hey! You could also play some stupid build, and what comes out of it? Inability to make anything.
Know he's a thief? Tough shit. - It can be fixed easily. Some ways to fix it were already mentioned in other suggestions.
LOL I TROL U - This is not only about steal, there are lots of things used to "troll" not involving stealing. Not valid argument, in my opinion.
No risk. - Unfortunately, that's true and I don't think that anything beyond reputation drop or changing respawn system can be done here.
Thieves are a part of this game, as well as so-called PKs or suicide bombers. Okay, they are annoying, then what? This is not Kitty Online. What are you going to suggest after this one? Disabling PvP combat?
All of the issues above can be fixed somehow, so don't need to scrap steal.. just need to rework it a bit.
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While thieving is annoying I think it can be improved instead of removed.
No risk. Thieves are in their Vault PJs, but they can steal your assault rifle.
Know he's a thief? Tough shit. You can't do anything until the guards spot him, even if you know he's about to/already has robbed you.
Thief Alt! The associated reputation drops mean that you create a character specifically for thievery. Then you either use it to supply your main or you just use it to irritate the fuck out of people.
LOL I TROL U It irritates the hell out of players, new and old alike.
1. Allow unprotection to stay depending on time, rather than death of the thief. (say 30min-1hr)
2. Upcoming engine changes will implement darkness levels, hence I believe stealing should take a huge penalty in daylight/lit locations. This will encourage thieves to prowl at night, rather than steal in broad daylight, as well as stay away from stores.
3. With the soon to be 3D era, we can have a costume that burglars wear (can be just a black outfit), that would be a requirement for a thief to steal (or at least steal from players). So a thief would need to put in time/caps into the outfit before he can steal your precious assault rifle. (Hence now thieves have a risk, since the outfit would drop upon death)
4. Thieves are currently a one way build (similar to a crafter, which are getting reworked with the coming update), the same can apply to thieves. In general if you want a skill to be useful, it has to be useful in PvP, or it is then more efficient to create an alt (crafter, taxi, lock picker, etc.) or left unused (speech, gambling). I propose Stealing to work similar to UO's Wrestling in PvP, but that might be a bit of an extreme suggestion seeing the negativity to thieving in this topic. [This is actually a reworking of the skill, rather than a limitation.]
We can of course impose more restrictions on stealing but what I proposed would be sufficient.
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2. Upcoming engine changes will implement darkness levels, hence I believe stealing should take a huge penalty in daylight/lit locations.
Such engine changes are done by cvet. We can't do anything about it- therefore it's not sure when such feature will be implemented.
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there are so many simple ways to avoid bieng robbed that I really dont see any point of "nerfing" thief more than he is now. From the other hand - thief has to really work his ass off to steal something valuable and not just some shitty crap. For me its just another whining topic - "omg I got robbed nerf thief".
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From the other hand - thief has to really work his ass off to steal something valuable and not just some shitty crap.
I don't think someone is making thief to... steal valuable stuff and then use it. There're much faster and easier ways to get it, thieves are like bombers or suicidal bursters, but instead of killing, they only taking items. It's skill to destroy items in someone's inventory for noones profit, not another type of farming (except for BoS members robbing BoS patrols, but this topic is about PvP stealing.) Also I think it's ok ^_^ Of couse it's really sad when someone's losing his newly bought leather jacket, when that played just started and 250 caps was everything he had, but if someone wants to nerf stealing, I think he'll also ask to make activating dynamit in guarded towns and shooting in point blank with burst weapon impossible. Oh, also make 9999 hp guards with gauss rifles with 100% crit chance always rolling max critical roll and damage.
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I think PvP stealing is highly overrated. By stealing any npcs u make more in same time. PvP stealing is just for irritating the people. I agree with kilgore that it should be possible for normal chars to shoot the thief and take his stuff back.
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Agreed Badger. Also it sound promising what Lexx said about it.
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As far as I'm concerned thieves can be shot and looted by guards if they fail. Unprotected players should be shot on sight when entering a town. They caused trouble in the town, guards should react on that.
I also wouldn't mind if guards treat failed stealing from pc and npc equal. Meaning they kill the thief.
While thieving is annoying I think it can be improved instead of removed.
1. Allow unprotection to stay depending on time, rather than death of the thief. (say 30min-1hr)
3. With the soon to be 3D era, we can have a costume that burglars wear (can be just a black outfit), that would be a requirement for a thief to steal (or at least steal from players). So a thief would need to put in time/caps into the outfit before he can steal your precious assault rifle. (Hence now thieves have a risk, since the outfit would drop upon death)
1. I suggested in another thread to make it depend on the player's reputation. Minimum should be 1 real time hour, for players with a neutral or better rep. Worse rep means longer penalty. This off course should not be limited to thieves.
3. That would mean thieves would always be recognizable which makes it a stupid suggestion. Also a simple suit will probably not be that expensive and therefore not a big loss.
I think PvP stealing is highly overrated. By stealing any npcs u make more in same time. PvP stealing is just for irritating the people. I agree with kilgore that it should be possible for normal chars to shoot the thief and take his stuff back.
I agree that stealing from npcs can be much more lucrative. PvP can be lucrative too. Irritating people at traders is done by thieves and none thieves alike, especially since traders can only talk to 1 player.
Many people use repair or whatever to scare people of a trader to trade for themselves. It has nothing to do with stealing.
Personally I leave players at traders alone, unless I tagged them red. However such behavior to me is an open invitation to try to steal from that player.
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I don't think anything character-specific will work - if Thief1 has terrible reputation for an hour in NCR, you switch to Thief2 and so on. And if you're going to go to such great lengths (30 minutes unprotected) to stop people stealing more than once an hour, what's the point in keeping stealing in the first place?
I'm going to try and point discussion in another direction:
How does stealing make the game more enjoyable?
I don't think it does. It distracts people from the game itself, and makes something that should ordinarily be quite easy and routine (shopping), and turns it into a stupid minigame of 'try and avoid the guy running after you and make sure you don't get blocked in'. And I'm not sure it adds to the 'atmosphere' or the 'realism' of a wasteland either, especially when your stuff is safer dumped in a tent in the middle of the wasteland than it is in your pocket.
And yes, if they do this my next stop is to disable suicide bombers. Then PvP combat. Then regular combat. Then I ask the devs for your address so I can come to your house and make sure you are playing the game the way I want. Great call.
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All of the issues above can be fixed somehow, so don't need to scrap steal.. just need to rework it a bit.
Everything can be fixed in some kind of way. The question is *how* exactly.
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I'm glad you brought this up in such confident manner Badger. I can't but agree with your points, except the complete scrapping. Player to player steal could be just frozen until a harmonous mechanism is founded.
Thief Alt! - People make crafter alts, taxi alts... so what?
Guess the goal is to aim towards a game that doesn't support alts.
Know he's a thief? Tough shit. - It can be fixed easily. Some ways to fix it were already mentioned in other suggestions.
Actually a system that's fair towards the thief and the victim is rather hard to manufacture. A system that's mostly dependent on success dice roll favours a minmaxed thief build. System which is all about how players play (skillz) is fairer but more complicated to develop.
Thieves are a part of this game, as well as so-called PKs or suicide bombers. Okay, they are annoying, then what?
Instead of annoying they should be challenging. You can't challenge a thief in fair play, there are only retarded loophole methods such as suicide bursting him until he gets bored to return.
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u all wanna turn fonline to WoW, quick smooth and easy to play with no risk. geeezas the beuty of this game is that it has a lot of threats and deangerous situation in it - its so falloutish - wasteland is harsh baby. The threat of being robbed is very important factor wich gives pleasure of playing this game. One more time - U COULD PREVENT 99% of steal attempt BY SIMPLE USING UR BRAIN - if ur stupid and play like idot then u deserve to be robbed - amen.
nerfing nerfing nerfing its all i can hear here... :/
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One more time - U COULD PREVENT 99% of steal attempt BY SIMPLE USING UR BRAIN
You mean your mouse. *click, move two hex further*
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Running from thief or suspicious person is not very wastelandish. Shooting him in head is. But it is possible only in unguarded towns now.
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watching ur back by setting trade window in right place, having 4 example cash in hand till u choose stuff u wanna buy, choosing right hours to do important deals etc. I hurt absolutely NO difficulties with thiefs and even when I finally meat some troll whos goal is only to disturb and not let me make a deal ( wich is rare like hell) then i can just go worldmap go back after 10 minutes and he is gone.
ur making a problem that really doesnt exists.
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ur making a problem that really doesnt exists.
Your tips don't capsize the rationales Badger gave. But if you're into tips, here's even better advice: don't go to safe towns. Problem solved, right?
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geezas yeah just make this game another wow clone. Now its uniqe but with ur "nerf everything" thinking its gona be crap soon.
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5 happy players compared to 1 unhappy Rascal (thief) - which way should we go ? I agree with avv, we need mechanism that favours player skill over minmaxing. And 2.5d will help too
watching ur back by setting trade window in right place
Done, still I have to move everytime he uses "steal".
having 4 example cash in hand till u choose stuff u wanna buy,
And then what ?
choosing right hours to do important deals
Theres almost always something interesting in shops, even waiting 10 mins can cost us
when I finally meat some troll whos goal is only to disturb and not let me make a deal ( wich is rare like hell) then i can just go worldmap go back after 10 minutes and he is gone.
No they are not. For me , it seems like they are camping city 24/7. Not to mention there is often more than one thief.
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geeezas the beuty of this game is that it has a lot of threats and deangerous situation in it - its so falloutish - wasteland is harsh baby.
I think that it's incredibly far from Falloutish. Do you think Buster would allow a thief to chase a customer around his store? No. He'd get his Bozar wielding goons to take him out the first sign of trouble.
The whole 'It's like Fallout/It's nothing like Fallout' is wheeled out every gameplay discussion, and can be argued in either direction. You think the possibility of being pickpocketed in the NCR is very 'Fallout'. I think if a known thief can operate in the same area in an incredibly obvious way, in a lawful town, isn't 'Fallout' at all. I think the spectacle of a man in Vault PJs trying to use lockpick on me detracts from the 'Fallout' atmosphere far more than not being able to steal would. Discuss my points on whether or not they make for a better gameplay experience, not whether they adhere to our own respective definitions of Fallout.
I know how easy it is to dodge thieves. I'm saying that it's such a pointless waste of time you shouldn't have to.
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I think Stealing in general is kinda useless. Why?
Well experienced players know how to deal with thieves, and only newbies tend to be robbed, but they also tend to have only poor gear in their inventory. This makes PvP Stealing kinda useless for getting items, and only useful if you want to troll another person.
Now about PvE Stealing, you can actually get some items form it... but with the current Reputation system, well you can just kill the NPC and loot his corpse, without worrying about the consequences.
In other words, Stealing is just for trolling.
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now stealing on players is very hard but possible - and that is why - when u succed u feel great :) (ofcoors im talking here about some good stuff not stealing 5lvl from his mauser)
I see u just dont realise how stealing could be an "art" in game, making "steal traps" by using map features. Stealing could give a lot of satisfactiona and fun - for example -->
I saw a guy who ride in into HUB with his highwayman (fully armed in ba lsw) he was wating 4 someone and talking with few players around. Honestly he acted very stupid -> lockpier/thief danger. So I run to him and quickly use steal on him - to my surprise he put his key on his inventory instead of his hand! (what would fully prevent any stealing attemp on it). Ultra fast drag&drop before he managed to step away (which automaticly "defuse" stealing window) - fast run to the car and hell yeah baby higwayman is mine. Inside the trunk there were tons of top tier stuff ba/lsw/drugs/lot of caps. I quickly got back to hub to maine entrace and other players who whitnessed my trick cheered and congrats me that brilliant thief action. I play almost only PvP TC shit , used my thief for very short period but still that was one of the best if even not THE BEST moment in this game for me.
example above just shows that all fault was on that robbed player - he act unwise and i manage to punish his careless behavior.
And now we can go back to u players who are saying nerf thief -> by that u just gona make another part of this game DEAD. Fonline should be rich of different types of oportunities to have fun. U just wanna close one because u dont find interesting playing as a thief and whats is worst because ur too lazy/careless/stupid to take care about ur safety ingame(which is sooo fucking simple).
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I fully agree with Rascal. Thieves present in more crowded locations (NCR, Hub) only add to the taste of gameplay, even if you are gonna waste some time avoiding them or you're gonna lose some stuff to them. Moreover, there were at least several people playing this game ONLY with their thief characters. Some of them quitted after changes that made stealing hard (without creating additional alts, of course) - for example, reputation drops. Now you want to scrap whole feature, because it's only "trolling". Grats.
Btw. my adventure with FOnline:2238 started pretty much as constant fight with thieves in Hub, in times when steal was way more effective than now. It was totally annoying when just after starting the game and wasting much time to get any items, some dude stole my pistol and bullets and offered it to me for some caps (lol), but seriously, without that, the game would be too easy. Especially that after I lvl'd up and I got his radio channel and was able to convince him via radio that I'm going to buy some valuable items he stole from other people, it was very easy to suicide kill him in guarded location while he was preparing to arrange "the deal". Some sort of revenge, eh?
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I don't think it should be removed. It does need changes before it works well enough to not irritate players constantly and also make it a feasible skill.
But from what I've seen, stealing from NPCs isn't worth it unless you steal from encounters, and apparently it isn't supposed to be easy to steal from BoS encounters, f.e. Removing PvP stealing IMO would kill steal as a usable skill.
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I do not see Rascal's anecdote as a very strong argument against this suggestion. Sure, his story was funny and cool, but I bet people can have funny anecdotes related to any game feature, bug or exploit. I personally had an amusing experience killing a player who was gridcamping, but that does not mean I want gridcampers not to be banned/punished.
Also, once again I repeat, it sure was a good story, but how many thief players use their skill like that? Most thieves' stories would be something like "that n00b raged after I stole his 9mm" or "lawl that guy had to just leave the shop cos I was trolling him so he couldn't trade".
As someone said before, PvP stealing should be cancelled at least until a better stealing system is made.
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I made the suggestion to enable traps for thieves.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14295.0
Another alternative would be non-lethal weapons- tazers, shotguns with bag shot, needler with paralysis poison, sap, boxing gloves, (uuh... rocket launcher filled with pillows), paintgun that would mark their skin dayglo orange for about a week . Say 30 minutes real time of getting benched might be appropriate. If I were nasty, I'd suggest we cut a hand off reducing AG by 2.
Thieves say "I steal for the thrill." Non-thieves say "thieves steal because they are trolling jerks who like to annoy others." I say they are both right. Trolling jerks who steal for the thrill of annoying others and getting free stuff.
Thieves do not steal in PVP towns. Lest they die as they are no match for most builds in a fight and are in a bluesuit.
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Being able to steal something that expensive in a few seconds when you weren't risking anything of equivalent value is a massively imbalanced gameplay mechanic.
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SOLUTION FOR ALL THE MERCS, ALTING, STEAL, TC INJUST AND TROLLS:
just make one IP can have only 1 or 2 chars registrered
is the best and faster solution...
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SOLUTION FOR ALL THE MERCS, ALTING, STEAL, TC INJUST AND TROLLS:
just make one IP can have only 1 or 2 chars registrered
is the best and faster solution...
Proxies... Also i can change my IP by reseting my internet box.
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I like this, because the way stealing is now, OMG... Sadly Lexx is right, most likely won't change, and far too many people bank on stealing and griefing, for enough of us to back a positive change. My pvp Suggestion in sig, seems to be along this same train of thought. Glad more than a few of us are trying to bring to light the way things are and how they're not working.
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5 happy players compared to 1 unhappy Rascal (thief) - which way should we go ?
No they are not. For me , it seems like they are camping city 24/7. Not to mention there is often more than one thief.
You should read better, he's not the only unhappy thief.
Stealing is nerved enough.
I trade regularly in the Hub, Junktown, VC and to a lesser extend NCR and SF in the evenings (GMT +1, which are busy hours) and am hardly harassed by thieves.
The only bad incidents I had recently were with Greens and Blackcaty who are indeed not only stealing but also grieving and exploiting.
I think Stealing in general is kinda useless. Why?
Well experienced players know how to deal with thieves, and only newbies tend to be robbed, but they also tend to have only poor gear in their inventory. This makes PvP Stealing kinda useless for getting items, and only useful if you want to troll another person.
Now about PvE Stealing, you can actually get some items form it... but with the current Reputation system, well you can just kill the NPC and loot his corpse, without worrying about the consequences.
In other words, Stealing is just for trolling.
Stealing isn't useless, that's just your opinion.
As for stealing from newbies, that depends on the player. I know many thieves, including myself, who don't do that.
Stealing is regularly useful for getting good items. I got a bunch of rockets and caps yesterday, get ammo regularly (not a BoS member) and other stuff too. Whether or not that's useful or not depends on the characters you play and the faction you're in. Still even a stack of weak healing powders can be useful if it's a high number as you can than use it for trading.
Killing an npc results in -100 instead of -25 rep for a failed stealing. Also you can't be alone as someone else will have to loot the npc.
I've seen more trolls in the game who aren't thief than who are.
Also, once again I repeat, it sure was a good story, but how many thief players use their skill like that? Most thieves' stories would be something like "that n00b raged after I stole his 9mm" or "lawl that guy had to just leave the shop cos I was trolling him so he couldn't trade".
As someone said before, PvP stealing should be cancelled at least until a better stealing system is made.
If trolling is your argument, this whole game should be canceled. Every single skill which can be used in any kind of PvP is used for trolling.
As for the "he couldn't trade" trolling, sure some thieves do that (the Greens and Blackcaty make a good example). However there are plenty of none thief players who also do this.
Yesterday someone with a rocket launcher did that too me. I didn't know the guy, so he could be a thief with a broken rocket launcher or he could be a BG build. I wouldn't know.
Thieves say "I steal for the thrill." Non-thieves say "thieves steal because they are trolling jerks who like to annoy others." I say they are both right. Trolling jerks who steal for the thrill of annoying others and getting free stuff.
Thieves do not steal in PVP towns. Lest they die as they are no match for most builds in a fight and are in a bluesuit.
You're wrong here. Thieves say non-thieves are whiners who should pay more attention when playing.
I trade regularly and regularly someone pushes me away from the trader or pretends to use steal on me to scare me off. When I use steal on them they often start whining and demanding their stuff back. As far as I'm concerned, what goes around comes around.
Thieves steal in the town where players do their trading. The more players around, the more interesting for thieves. There are hardly any players around in unguarded towns, so why should thieves hang out there?
People whine a lot about trolling and yes there's a lot of trolling going on.
But to say it's only thieves is plain lame and I could even argue that some people use these threads for trolling thieves.
The steal system is okay the way it is now. It has been nerved enough.
Someone comes standing next to you, at a trader or not, you walk away if you're smart. It might be a thief, it might also be a suicide burster. You can never be sure and basically can't trust anyone in this game.
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I play almost only PvP TC shit , used my thief for very short period but still that was one of the best if even not THE BEST moment in this game for me.
So you risked nothing and gained massive benefit. Doesn't sound very balanced.
Someone comes standing next to you, at a trader or not, you walk away if you're smart.
This sentence has been stated over and over. The answer is always the same: it's not good gameplay. People hate having to move away from harassing thieves. They don't like the system where the thieves propose a constant unmovable annoyance rather than occasional challenge.
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I was all for scraping thiefs... but now that I think about it, I would miss them.
Maybe if only shoping was safer (ticking timer, 300 radios, 100 mausers and try to find that one item you want while looking for thiefs) reputation had value and you could get your items from the dead thief (you used AP for bursting him so the next guy can take all while you wait) then it'd be ok to get robed from time to time.
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u miss one important point - trolls gona be trolls.
scraping thiefs just gona make some part of this game DEAD. After that those Trolls just gona turn into suicide burster with buddies to pick up loot or turn into suicide bomber or what is a REAL problem now (in oposite to thief characters) -> they gona make em selfs idolized and shoot u for lulz and fun. Trolls gona always find their way to troll - its a state of mind.
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So you risked nothing and gained massive benefit. Doesn't sound very balanced.
There are many more ways to make your fortune in this game without risking anything.
Thieves can spend hours without making anything because people avoid them or shoot them when they failed.
This sentence has been stated over and over. The answer is always the same: it's not good gameplay. People hate having to move away from harassing thieves. They don't like the system where the thieves propose a constant unmovable annoyance rather than occasional challenge.
Your argument has been stated over and over again.
So I'll respond to it once more:
- not everyone uses steal, some simply use the animation to scare you away from the trader to free it so they can trade. Those are not thieves
- not everyone walking next to you when trading is a thief. There are also (sometimes idolized) bursters who's friends will loot you
Not to mention some are just standing next to you waiting in line.
Personally at traders I'm more afraid of bursters than of thieves. Thieves are easier to avoid than bullets.
they gona make em selfs idolized and shoot u for lulz and fun. Trolls gona always find their way to troll - its a state of mind.
This will be fixed according to devs.
You're right. This game is filled with trolls and grievers. It doesn't depend on pc, but on personality.
Remove steal and they find other ways to troll. Both at traders and elsewhere.
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There are many more ways to make your fortune in this game without risking anything.
Like grinding. But when it comes to stealing, you're taking from players. In cases where players rob others there is always a risk for the robber to lose his gear aswell, it doesn't apply to thieving.
Thieves can spend hours without making anything because people avoid them or shoot them when they failed.
Yet why they do it?
Your argument has been stated over and over again.
So I'll respond to it once more:
- not everyone uses steal, some simply use the animation to scare you away from the trader to free it so they can trade. Those are not thieves
- not everyone walking next to you when trading is a thief. There are also (sometimes idolized) bursters who's friends will loot you
Not to mention some are just standing next to you waiting in line.
Personally at traders I'm more afraid of bursters than of thieves. Thieves are easier to avoid than bullets.
The point was people are tired of the methods used to avoid thieves. They want change to that. It's not about bursters because they are just exploit and can be dealt with aswell.
You're right. This game is filled with trolls and grievers. It doesn't depend on pc, but on personality.
Remove steal and they find other ways to troll. Both at traders and elsewhere.
So you admit players use steal like griefing?
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5 happy players compared to 1 unhappy Rascal (thief) - which way should we go ?
You should read better, he's not the only unhappy thief.
Oh really ? It was just a comparison ::)
- not everyone uses steal, some simply use the animation to scare you away from the trader to free it so they can trade. Those are not thieves
- not everyone walking next to you when trading is a thief. There are also (sometimes idolized) bursters who's friends will loot you
Not to mention some are just standing next to you waiting in line.
Personally at traders I'm more afraid of bursters than of thieves. Thieves are easier to avoid than bullets.
ad1 - If we cant recognize whether hes stealing or using reparir, theres always threat that you are going to be robbed
ad2 - Theres defense against that, not to mention I havent seen suicide bursters for a long time (Im not speaking about idolizing, its going to change soon)
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Like grinding. But when it comes to stealing, you're taking from players. In cases where players rob others there is always a risk for the robber to lose his gear aswell, it doesn't apply to thieving.
You're always at risk of losing your loot.
You're talking about the risk of losing a highly detoriorated smg from an encounter?
Yeah, that's a risk.
Yet why they do it?
The point was people are tired of the methods used to avoid thieves. They want change to that. It's not about bursters because they are just exploit and can be dealt with aswell.
That 1 succesful steal can make the day.
The mehod is the same. You start by standing next to someone.
It's hard to deal with bursters when you've just been killed.
So you admit players use steal like griefing?
No. I admit players pretend to use it for grieving.
ad1 - If we cant recognize whether hes stealing or using reparir, theres always threat that you are going to be robbed
ad2 - Theres defense against that, not to mention I havent seen suicide bursters for a long time (Im not speaking about idolizing, its going to change soon)
1. Solutions for that have been suggested in other threads.
2. What kind of defense is that? They run towards you while you're trading and burst you before you can walk away. I was attacked by a suicide burster 2 days ago. I wasn't speaking about idolized bursters either.
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Another alternative would be non-lethal weapons- tazers, shotguns with bag shot, needler with paralysis poison, sap, boxing gloves, (uuh... rocket launcher filled with pillows), paintgun that would mark their skin dayglo orange for about a week . Say 30 minutes real time of getting benched might be appropriate. If I were nasty, I'd suggest we cut a hand off reducing AG by 2.
FUCK YEAH LET'S CUT THEIR HANDS OFF : D
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Use the search function. There's a million posts about this already.
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Majority of this game supports a "for da lulz" attitude.
Sucks but nothing to be done. Instead, join the alt crowd and make everything yourself. Other alternative is lulz crowd.
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It just comes down to majority vs minority, Majority get their lulz and caps/gear from griefing others, stealing/shop shooting/bombing/farming bluesuits. Minority are the people who face the previous actions thus supplying the Majority. Choices, join the troll/grief crowd, or hide away from 89% of the game that you're trying to test/play. And as Avv said, all gain no pain, you think anyone's gonna want that to change? The Majority is so frightened of having to work for what they get now so easily.
Stealing is soo bad, not just because of the exploiters in hub, but people everywhere. The latest trick plant dynamite on someone, 2 possible outcomes, they don't notice and die, they do notice drop the bomb from their bags get shot by guards and die, either way you get their gear and nothing bad happens to you.
Sure there are 'ways' of avoiding thieves, (oh shit someones near me, I just was trading with Sha, damn it /click away. Try again, here they come /click away.) Yeah that has been great game play so far...
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The latest trick plant dynamite on someone, 2 possible outcomes, they don't notice and die, they do notice drop the bomb from their bags get shot by guards and die, either way you get their gear and nothing bad happens to you.
3rd they notice it and drop the bomb on worldmap and nothing happens. Btw it's very old.
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3rd they notice it and drop the bomb on worldmap and nothing happens. Btw it's very old.
Yeah that works great when you're no where near an exit grid..
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Yeah that works great when you're no where near an exit grid..
use trap skill on it and hope you still have enough hp so you aren't unconscious or dead.
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It just comes down to majority vs minority, Majority get their lulz and caps/gear from griefing others, stealing/shop shooting/bombing/farming bluesuits. Minority are the people who face the previous actions thus supplying the Majority. Choices, join the troll/grief crowd, or hide away from 89% of the game that you're trying to test/play. And as Avv said, all gain no pain, you think anyone's gonna want that to change? The Majority is so frightened of having to work for what they get now so easily.
Stealing is soo bad, not just because of the exploiters in hub, but people everywhere. The latest trick plant dynamite on someone, 2 possible outcomes, they don't notice and die, they do notice drop the bomb from their bags get shot by guards and die, either way you get their gear and nothing bad happens to you.
Sure there are 'ways' of avoiding thieves, (oh shit someones near me, I just was trading with Sha, damn it /click away. Try again, here they come /click away.) Yeah that has been great game play so far...
If you want to get things easily, you sure as hell won't level a thief.
You simply create a crafter and supply the people wanting to buy stuff on the trade forum or you farm encounters.
Stealing isn't bad, it's part of the gameplay. Exploiters should be dealt with, no matter what they exploit.
Suggestions, better than just removing steal, have been made to deal with thieves around traders. Auto push, a 2nd steal counter which only applies to stealing from that victim, etc.
As for people walking to you near a trader, you even considered you're not the only one wanting to trade? Some will grief to scare you of, others just for the "fun" of it or because you killed them in the wasteland.
As for trading in NCR, don't complain about thieves or grievers when going there. At popular hours it's a certainty you will encounter them.
use trap skill on it and hope you still have enough hp so you aren't unconscious or dead.
Make sure you don't hit any protected pc or any npc when it explodes or you'll get a rep decrease.
Try dropping it in an empty room or something like that where guards and other npc can't see what you're doing.
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Yeah that works great when you're no where near an exit grid..
yeah because usually bombers stay far far away from main grid and the place where most of the players are : >
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You're always at risk of losing your loot.
You're talking about the risk of losing a highly detoriorated smg from an encounter?
What I meant was that when a player wants to rob another player with violence, he might lose his own gear if the victim manages to kill the robber. However in steal situation the thief doesn't risk any material because he is bluesuit, yet his victim still has the possibility to lose stuff. It doesn't matter if the thief has spent hours failing, it doesn't net him some sort of "steal points" that justify him to take items from players without risk.
That 1 succesful steal can make the day.
So it's just fun? The fun is too biased towards the thief.
The mehod is the same. You start by standing next to someone.
It's hard to deal with bursters when you've just been killed.
I meant that we can find methods to alter the features when it comes to suicide bursters, it's up to devs.
In addition, suicide bursters are much better enemies than thieves. At least you can protect yourself against them by having high hp and good armor, you can even shoot back when you're under attack. In addition suicide burster risks his gear, even if he has friend to loot stuff, he still risks the stuff.
No. I admit players pretend to use it for grieving.
So there is absolutely no case where player don't use steal to grief? Never ever? I met a player in ncr who literally chased the same people over and over with steal, got killed every now and then but always returned and kept chasing. Isn't that griefing?
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What I meant was that when a player wants to rob another player with violence, he might lose his own gear if the victim manages to kill the robber. However in steal situation the thief doesn't risk any material because he is bluesuit, yet his victim still has the possibility to lose stuff. It doesn't matter if the thief has spent hours failing, it doesn't net him some sort of "steal points" that justify him to take items from players without risk.
Risking an encounter SMG with not even a full clip doesn't sound like much of a risk of losing gear to me.
You risk bad rep, your risk wasting time. Losing rep means you can get shot in encounters with that faction. My thief has 100 OD, but I know many haven't put points in OD. No result in hours means wasting time. It's a risk as you could use that time to do other things.
So it's just fun? The fun is too biased towards the thief.
It might just be satisfying finally having a successful steal.
[sarcasm]There are so many things fun in this game, leveling, alts, PK, hanging out with other people, ... Let's nerve it all.[/sarcasm]
I meant that we can find methods to alter the features when it comes to suicide bursters, it's up to devs.
In addition, suicide bursters are much better enemies than thieves. At least you can protect yourself against them by having high hp and good armor, you can even shoot back when you're under attack. In addition suicide burster risks his gear, even if he has friend to loot stuff, he still risks the stuff.
Tell that to the low level characters getting shot by bursters. Most characters used for trading aren't power builds. Often they're crafters. They don't have high HP.
Thieves can be avoided much more easily. If people armor up, the burster and looter become several bursters and a looter. As for shooting back, it requires you to close the trade windows. Meaning you already received 2 bursts point blank range. As said before, the only thing suicide bursters risk is an encounter gun and the ammo in it. Like thieves, they're not wearing armor, etc.
So there is absolutely no case where player don't use steal to grief? Never ever? I met a player in ncr who literally chased the same people over and over with steal, got killed every now and then but always returned and kept chasing. Isn't that griefing?
It's grieving, not stealing.
They're exploiting the fact that the animation is the same. Blame the grievers, not the thieves. They're 2 different things.
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Sadly the current population, thieves and griefer thieves are pretty much the same. I haven't bumped into a thief that didn't chase me around, haunt me at every vendor or in most cases try to blow me up! Does stealing need to go? NO I never EVER said that, but somethings gotta change, beyond just the animation. It is by FAR too much all gain no pain. There is something just not right in a system where making a character who's sole purpose is to go somewhere and spend your time taking from others has little to no risk. Congratulations your thief character has /godmode turned on, you can do anything that character was built for, over and over, and you might 1/50 lose something...
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Sadly the current population, thieves and griefer thieves are pretty much the same. I haven't bumped into a thief that didn't chase me around, haunt me at every vendor or in most cases try to blow me up!
Almost every single thief I have encountered doesn't do this. I hardly bump into a thieving griever. Only exception this session are Greens and Blackcaty.
Saying grievers and thieves are the same is short sighted bullshit.
To me it sounds like you spend too much time in NCR and not elsewhere.
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Risking an encounter SMG with not even a full clip doesn't sound like much of a risk of losing gear to me.
Nobody's talking about smg, you're just going to die when you meet anyone competent. Good example of player robbing would be going to reno with group of friends to hunt merchants and weaker players while wearing top tier stuff. Risk is some more dangerous group comes and kills you.
You risk bad rep, your risk wasting time.
And what does the other player get from you risking time and rep? He can't sell or use the time and rep you wasted but you can use the equipment you stole from him.
If I shoot some robber, I get his equipment. What do I get from dead thief?
It might just be satisfying finally having a successful steal.
[sarcasm]There are so many things fun in this game, leveling, alts, PK, hanging out with other people, ... Let's nerve it all.[/sarcasm]
The point was that it's not fun towards the victim. Yeh it might be fun to shoot the thief once, but when he just comes back to harass again it starts to get old. If there was a way to trick thieves or fool them to expose themselves, it'd be more fun to the victim aswell since he would have a way to hit back.
Tell that to the low level characters getting shot by bursters. Most characters used for trading aren't power builds. Often they're crafters. They don't have high HP.
Yet they can build themselves stronger by getting more hp and better armor. You can't build yourself stronger against thief the same way.
Thieves can be avoided much more easily. If people armor up, the burster and looter become several bursters and a looter.
One player cannot split into several people.
As for shooting back, it requires you to close the trade windows. Meaning you already received 2 bursts point blank range. As said before, the only thing suicide bursters risk is an encounter gun and the ammo in it. Like thieves, they're not wearing armor, etc.
The burster might not able to pull 2nd burst because guards shoot him in the between. But nevertheless, I've had no problems vs suicide bursters due to wearing armor and having high hp. In the end, discussing the whole suicide burster issue isn't relevant to thievery because the whole phenomena is exploit. Thievery is feature.
It's grieving, not stealing.
They're exploiting the fact that the animation is the same. Blame the grievers, not the thieves. They're 2 different things.
Those players I saw were stealing. Like I said they died occasionally due to being caught, then they just returned again and kept doing the same thing. When they had too low rep they just sold some crap in the local hospital.
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Ok nice personal attack, you must have a thief character. No see I go to NCR, The Hub, Vault City, and to a lesser extent San Fran. In all these places I and my buddy have been hounded by thieves, I have a large note pad next to my computer with one page FULL of names of thief/griefers. I did NOT say that ALL thieves are griefers, but sadly too many are. And as with most things it's time for the same thing that happens in life to happen to them, the bad eggs ruin it for everyone else. Again as I stated in the previous post, I don't think stealing should be gone, but it needs to be reworked. Too many people with /godmode on.
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No see I go to NCR, The Hub, Vault City, and to a lesser extent San Fran. In all these places I and my buddy have been hounded by thieves, I have a large note pad next to my computer with one page FULL of names of thief/griefers.
bauahhaa seriously bro start taking some medicines :P
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So ignoring the amount of thieves/griefers, and their locations, the system itself is broken. This is what is being discussed, and the fact that a large portion of people use this broken system to their advantage. Stealing is part of fallout life, but it's current execution isn't working.
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Doesnt sound too bad if you are allowed to kill him after wards, maybe just make it so you can kill anyone who steals from you without guards attacking you period?
or make it harder for naked people to steal and get away with it, half of your issue it seems is the fact that your getting looted by someone who has nothing to lose.
if someones walking around naked, and all of a sudden has an assault rifle, it would be pretty obvious.
what would be really nice, is if you could tell the guard he stole from you.
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Suggesting any restriction of freedom in this game is a HUGE nono.
The problems with 90 percent of this game lies in the fact that people can do what they want, when they want, and often as they want to with little or no consequences.
Again, there is a reason that most MMOS do not allow such chucklehead behavior because folks on the net cannot be trusted to have any type of self-control. The main selling point of Fonline seems to be the complete opposite. Hence while WoW has millions of players, Fonline had at some point 600 players max?
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Hence while WoW has millions of players, Fonline had at some point 600 players max?
Yep, comparing WoW to FOnline seems very logical.. ;D
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He is comparing mmo to mmo
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Well as we're testing this game, we know that stealing is broken. Much of the zero consequence parts of the game are. So lets see if we can help the devs by putting our heads together and posting possible options and ways it may work better.
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I am comparing MMOS and figures. Its quite clear that folks do not like having their time wasted by lulz kiddies and non-sensical cooldowns.
If the devs have no plans to reach higher goals for this game then more power to them.
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Hey everyone, I've been playing for a couple of days now, making and remaking my account until I found the perfect balance. I finally started to play for real today, I am minding my own business, avoiding confrontations with players (got me killed once already) and working on my crafts.
Everything was going fine until someone decided to steal from me, fine I said. This guy deserves a hole in his chest.
So I take my shot, but wouldn't you know it, the NCR cops come and kill me, then the cops loot me!! I said fine, maybe they didn't see him rob me. So I start over again, 30 minutes later, some guy in his vault suit with no weapons steals my gunpowder from me. I shoot him, and the cop standing right there did nothing, 'great, this guy is dead!' I said. But then from out of freaking nowhere comes the NCR police!! And they killed me, and the thief looted me again, taking my entire inventory!
So ALL cops in the town have to somehow see you? Should I stand up on a platform so every single police officer in Shady Sands can see me getting robbed before I can defend myself?
This is a broken game mechanic, nothing more, nothing less. >:(
Make it so even if the guards don't see the person steal, you can shoot them and the cops won't do a thing.
Also, these were the most recent times it happened, but when I was messing around with my build, the SAME thing happened in the other starting areas multiple times, I have died over 10 times in 2 days from hub and NCR guards.
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Hence while WoW has millions of players, Fonline had at some point 600 players max?
lol saying a game that's available on stores and is advertised to be better just because it has more players
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...
So ALL cops in the town have to somehow see you? Should I stand up on a platform so every single police officer in Shady Sands can see me getting robbed before I can defend myself?
This is a broken game mechanic, nothing more, nothing less. >:(
Make it so even if the guards don't see the person steal, you can shoot them and the cops won't do a thing.
Also, these were the most recent times it happened, but when I was messing around with my build, the SAME thing happened in the other starting areas multiple times, I have died over 10 times in 2 days from hub and NCR guards.
Seeing and "seeing" are 2 different things.
If guards "see" in the sense of their PE score/proximity register it, they will have a text line appear over them.
Then you can shoot the thief.
Also, if a thief fails you can shoot them even if a guard didn't seem to see.
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Non Thief Arguement: Thieving drains on gameplay, and is an in general annoyance. Remove it.
Thief Arguement: Thief is a very serious part of the game, this game will be dead to me if I can't take other people's hard earned items.
YEP!
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Thieving and anti thieving are the past time of many people at NCR, it's almost like a game of cat and mouse.
Also, i have one point and one point alone to make...
If you're letting someone stand there stealing from you than it's like you're standing there and letting someone shoot you...
You wouldn't let someone shoot you, don't let people steal from you, if you cant deal with them, dodge them. or to the hub, NCR is a death trap.
-Ulrek-
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lol saying a game that's available on stores and is advertised to be better just because it has more players
Yeah because good game design and interesting gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with the huge playerbase. Its just all hype that WoW has beaten all competitors out there. Man, if hype was all that was needed then FPOS and Age Of Conan should be selling like hotcakes off the shelves. ::)
Of course hype and advertising helps sales. But to blindly ignore the high points of WoW is just foolish and ignorant. Again, if the devs want to keep this game as kill happy monkey fest more power to them. Do not change gameplay concepts for the better like TC. Instead, rely on a broken ass system where victory is all about having fast relog, dual logging, proxy, etc. Keep thieving mechanic as is and allow some asshole with too much time on his hand to continuously fuckup your ability to interact with merchants simply with paranoia or a myriad of other actions that use the same graphic as the steal skill.
Hooray with stagnation.
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Yeah because good game design and interesting gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with the huge playerbase. Its just all hype that WoW has beaten all competitors out there. Man, if hype was all that was needed then FPOS and Age Of Conan should be selling like hotcakes off the shelves. ::)
wow is boring lol
too easy too childish
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By the way, what comes to game becomeing too easy if pvp thieves were removed from towns, isn't the game too easy for the thieves at the moment? Safe towns are actually safe towns for griefers and small criminals.
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I don't think we will see Thievery going. It would be nice to significantly reduce its ability to be used as a griefing tool though.
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If we are on to suggestions for Devs to implement to balance the mechanic of thieving I propose these:
1) Player has the option to shout "Thief!" If the thief PC has attempted to thieve then the police in civilized areas will react and the thief must evade the police. Capture by police = 10% exp reduction due to lack of being able to practice skills during "jail time." Thief must avoid that town for the next 30 real time minutes if they do successfully evade.
2) Player manages to kill thief. On their corpse they find a "map" to thief's tent. When at the tent they get to take 25% of whatever they find there.
I am in love with myself for these new ideas. ;D
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If we are on to suggestions for Devs to implement to balance the mechanic of thieving I propose these:
1) Player has the option to shout "Thief!" If the thief PC has attempted to thieve then the police in civilized areas will react and the thief must evade the police. Capture by police = 10% exp reduction due to lack of being able to practice skills during "jail time." Thief must avoid that town for the next 30 real time minutes if they do successfully evade.
2) Player manages to kill thief. On their corpse they find a "map" to thief's tent. When at the tent they get to take 25% of whatever they find there.
I am in love with myself for these new ideas. ;D
I like it! Except for stealing from the thieves tent.
Getting sent to prison and getting banned from the city for 15 real life minutes, and a chance of them getting killed by you is enough. It's semi realistic, and very wastelandish. This probably would never happen though.
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If we are on to suggestions for Devs to implement to balance the mechanic of thieving I propose these:
1) Player has the option to shout "Thief!" If the thief PC has attempted to thieve then the police in civilized areas will react and the thief must evade the police. Capture by police = 10% exp reduction due to lack of being able to practice skills during "jail time." Thief must avoid that town for the next 30 real time minutes if they do successfully evade.
2) Player manages to kill thief. On their corpse they find a "map" to thief's tent. When at the tent they get to take 25% of whatever they find there.
1.Towns don't have resources for Jail- except VC, Hub, NCR.
How is capture effected?
Choice of fight or surrender?
2. Where does this map come from? How is the 25% rule enforced? By magic? You get into someone's tent, you should be able to do whatever you want.
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If we are on to suggestions for Devs to implement to balance the mechanic of thieving I propose these:
1) Player has the option to shout "Thief!" If the thief PC has attempted to thieve then the police in civilized areas will react and the thief must evade the police. Capture by police = 10% exp reduction due to lack of being able to practice skills during "jail time." Thief must avoid that town for the next 30 real time minutes if they do successfully evade.
2) Player manages to kill thief. On their corpse they find a "map" to thief's tent. When at the tent they get to take 25% of whatever they find there.
I am in love with myself for these new ideas. ;D
1. Without a change in animation you would probably see lots of people shouting thief to no avail.
2. Map is a stupid idea as it assumes the thief is stupid enough to not know his way which means he probably shouldn't have much and would probably be jailed for a long time.
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Non Thief Arguement: Thieving drains on gameplay, and is an in general annoyance. Remove it.
Thief Arguement: Thief is a very serious part of the game, this game will be dead to me if I can't take other people's hard earned items.
YEP!
That pretty much sums it up.
With the bank interest this session, not to mention PK teams, grid camping, etc. I have to disagree on the "hard earned items" part.
Due to lack of time I missed out on the previous 2 or 3 pages and am not going to respond on all of the replies I missed (but did read).
Some suggestions to fix improve some of the aspects related to stealing (and other actions resulting in loss of protection):
1. Unprotected stays after death. Default time is 1 hour for players with a neutral rep, 1.5 hours for people with a lower rep and 30 minutes for those with a higher rep.
2. When an unprotected player enters a town:
a. Guards make a comment when an unprotected player enters town. Something like "player name, tread carefully", or "player name, we're keeping an eye on you". Everyone around now knows that person is unprotected. They can shoot him or leave him alone. That's there choice. People not around still won't know.
b. Guards shoot unprotected players on sight when they enter the town. If this is implemented, some solution should be thought up for players who have a hotel room in that town. Something like always spawning inside it and not just outside it.
3. During the time that you're unprotected with a faction, that faction becomes hostile in encounters.
4. Guards loot. No matter who shoots who. Everyone else looting before the guards loot, will be shot on sight. Guars also loot radios. Guard's loot could be added to a trader's inventory, could be sold by some guard merchant, auctioned, ... Giving it back to the rightful owner sounds impossible to me. How can that be determined. The last owner might not be the rightful owner.
5. The current stealing countdown stays. A 2nd is added which is related to the victim. The moment the inventory windows closes after the steal attempt, the thief can't use steal on that victim for 5 minutes. Other thieves can still steal from that victim.
6. Stealing should get its own animation.
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If we are on to suggestions for Devs to implement to balance the mechanic of thieving I propose these:
1) Player has the option to shout "Thief!" If the thief PC has attempted to thieve then the police in civilized areas will react and the thief must evade the police. Capture by police = 10% exp reduction due to lack of being able to practice skills during "jail time." Thief must avoid that town for the next 30 real time minutes if they do successfully evade.
2) Player manages to kill thief. On their corpse they find a "map" to thief's tent. When at the tent they get to take 25% of whatever they find there.
I am in love with myself for these new ideas. ;D
The tent thing is very stupid.
Anyways, I would just use a fake tent if I made a thief if such thing was implemented
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That pretty much sums it up.
With the bank interest this session, not to mention PK teams, grid camping, etc. I have to disagree on the "hard earned items" part.
1. Unprotected stays after death. Default time is 1 hour for players with a neutral rep, 1.5 hours for people with a lower rep and 30 minutes for those with a higher rep.
Or scale it for the number up or down. Negative 1000 seconds (counting up to zero) plus or minus rep.
2. When an unprotected player enters a town:
a. Guards make a comment when an unprotected player enters town. Something like "player name, tread carefully", or "player name, we're keeping an eye on you". Everyone around now knows that person is unprotected. They can shoot him or leave him alone. That's there choice. People not around still won't know.
Is he a known unprotected or just unprotected? Like if he failed stealing but was not seen by guards.
b. Guards shoot unprotected players on sight when they enter the town. If this is implemented, some solution should be thought up for players who have a hotel room in that town. Something like always spawning inside it and not just outside it.
Wasteland harsh. Yes.
3. During the time that you're unprotected with a faction, that faction becomes hostile in encounters.
At what distance, map wise? Is there a time of information travel?
4. Guards loot. No matter who shoots who. Everyone else looting before the guards loot, will be shot on sight. Guars also loot radios. Guard's loot could be added to a trader's inventory, could be sold by some guard merchant, auctioned, ... Giving it back to the rightful owner sounds impossible to me. How can that be determined. The last owner might not be the rightful owner.
How would they know it last person was rightful owner?
Items can be flagged, person stolen from may get a rep-based discount on buyback from the Cop Store.
With a timer on buyback, also based on rep.
5. The current stealing countdown stays. A 2nd is added which is related to the victim. The moment the inventory windows closes after the steal attempt, the thief can't use steal on that victim for 5 minutes. Other thieves can still steal from that victim.
Whether detected or not?
Should be based on detection.
6. Stealing should get its own animation.
Yes.
Maybe half of the push and half of the "fiddle".
Also: NPCs should be stealable again.
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Is he a known unprotected or just unprotected? Like if he failed stealing but was not seen by guards.
Guards should know when he reenters. Wether or not they've seen it.
At what distance, map wise? Is there a time of information travel?
World map wise. Information can travel fast by radio.
How would they know it last person was rightful owner?
That's my point. Several people suggested it should be given back to the rightful owner.
Whether detected or not?
Should be based on detection.
The thief always has that countdown.
Wether the victim is aware of it or not should depend on the thief failing or not.
Also: NPCs should be stealable again.
Some are, some are not.
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At what distance, map wise? Is there a time of information travel?
There are a lot of aspects that don't make sense. For example if I kill 2 Junktown Scouts out in the wastes.. Why would that lower my rep? :P
Some argue the point of their radios. So I guess the same could be said for this.
Personally, I think that if someone walks away during a stealing attempt it should count as a failure. Also, if someone fails a steal attempt they can't steal from that person for 5 minutes.
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Personally, I think that if someone walks away during a stealing attempt it should count as a failure. Also, if someone fails a steal attempt they can't steal from that person for 5 minutes.
Walking away shouldn't count as failed steal and therefore resulting in the loss of rep and protection.
That would be way too much nerving.
Any steal attempt, failed or not, should result in the 5 minutes cooldown.
In case of a failed attempt, the victim should see the cooldown too.
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Invoke some kind of penalty for failed steals, like maybe your arm gets crippled for set duration
lose of xp, or shop prices go up slightly for set duration. This will atleast give blue suite thieves something to lose.
Maybe those are harsh? i dont know, im just brain storming here, im not saying i would do this if i had the power, these are merely ideas.
I do however like the idea of being able to kill the thief without being attacked by the guards.
or if someone is caught stealing enough they get reputation as a thief, and all shop prices are
raised for that character by say 15 % in that town ? maybe this already exists, I dont know
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Walking away shouldn't count as failed steal and therefore resulting in the loss of rep and protection.
That would be way too much nerving.
I disagree, it makes perfect sense. If they walk away they obviously saw you thiefing them. :P
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From the other hand - thief has to really work his ass off to steal something valuable and not just some shitty crap.
I lol'd. Bad experience talking or none at all?
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I disagree, it makes perfect sense. If they walk away they obviously saw you thiefing them. :P
As I said, that's some serious nerving.
Also how to make the difference between walking away because someone tried to steal, or simply because you're done trading?
How to make the difference between walking away and being pushed out of the way (goes for both the thief and his victim) by some lame ass impatient griever eager to trade?
Invoke some kind of penalty for failed steals, like maybe your arm gets crippled for set duration
lose of xp, or shop prices go up slightly for set duration. This will atleast give blue suite thieves something to lose.
Maybe those are harsh? i dont know, im just brain storming here, im not saying i would do this if i had the power, these are merely ideas.
I do however like the idea of being able to kill the thief without being attacked by the guards.
or if someone is caught stealing enough they get reputation as a thief, and all shop prices are
raised for that character by say 15 % in that town ? maybe this already exists, I dont know
Arm crippling for a failed steal? What's next? Crippled legs for not running a way in an encounter and being hit by a critter?
A failed steal already means you lose xp.
Different shop pricing for thieves only means they let an alt do their trading.
Attacking thieves or people you assume are thieves or you assume have stolen from you won't do anything.
Thieves cooperate (already happening on a small scale), all use steal, 1 steals, you shoot the wrong person and get killed for attacking the wrong person.
Which will result in more whining about removing stealing.
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Quick fix, make it so you cant steal special items, and just normal items?
Don't know how hard that would be to implement, but at least you wont lose your unique items you traveled halfway across the wastes to get, or items only attainable through certain quests.
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Quick fix, make it so you cant steal special items, and just normal items?
Don't know how hard that would be to implement, but at least you wont lose your unique items you traveled halfway across the wastes to get, or items only attainable through certain quests.
You can get an encounter and get shot in it by other players, npc or critters and lose the item(s) that way.
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Well, I think the bigger concern was getting pick pocketed by blue suits with nothing to lose.
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Well, I think the bigger concern was getting pick pocketed by blue suits with nothing to lose.
I thought it was about the risk to lose special items.
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? you lost me, yeah THAT is a concern, to get pick pocketed by blue suite with nothing to lose who may choose to pick pocket a special item, those aren't mutually exclusive, wtf are you implying ? that you don't lose items on death at all if killed by another player?
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I'm implying you can steal every single item from someone's inventory with exception of the stuff in the 3 slots on his body.
Which is the way it is now.
You have a special item, put it in your hands, but not the active slot.
That way no one, not even with awareness, knows you have it and no one can steal it.
There's no need to make specific items unstealable.
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I think it would okay if you could steal certain items under a certain value (in caps), and caps should not be available. I'm enitirely new to this whole game and I'm having an INCREDIBLY hard time getting anywhere or doing anything. I'll do the whole "shit shoveling" job for a bit and then the Brahmin take a bit of a break from their awesome bowel movements and so I decide to see if I can do anything else for a little while, by this time I have a good amount of caps (for a noob, I guess) and then I get destroyed and lose everything. So I guess really I'm talking about the loss of anything when you die, PvP or no. You SHOULD lose some stuff, as there should be a penalty for dying, along with being weak, but not EVERYTHING. Maybe half of anything that's a resource. Losing weapons is sad, especially if they're great weapons. Haha, of course I've only had the shovel and a sharpened pole...
Anyway, I'll stop this paragraph now since I'm starting to turn this into a whole new topic. :P
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There's a limit to the amount of caps a thief can steal. It's based upon the skill and character build.
As for your hard time:
- get 10 hides and make a tent
- stop shit shoveling and start gathering junk. It's much more lucrative.
1 run with a 2 minute break results in 24 junk. You can make 6 batches of 50 BBs from that. That's 6*40 xp. 300 BBs do 1200 caps at most traders. You can also trade for drugs, weapons, ammo, etc. Or buy deteriorated mausers and use science on them. That gives you another 20 xp per mauser.
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I made a suggestion of "putting thieves in jail."
Their sprite does not actually get sent anywhere. They just get docked 10% exp for getting busted. If at max exp, they lose 10% of total in other words they get de-leveled to 20. Then they get booted for 30 real-time minutes.
The "map" idea- every thief I see takes stuff, runs off map to their tent, comes back with nothing to lose. If they got killed while stealing, and you could go to their tent and get a one-time only, take whatever you can carry from their tent. Caps, armor, whatever. Balances out the thieves no-loss for stealing. Of course I guess that they could use a friend to empty out that tent to another place of storage on another toon.
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I made a suggestion of "putting thieves in jail."
Their sprite does not actually get sent anywhere. They just get docked 10% exp for getting busted. If at max exp, they lose 10% of total in other words they get de-leveled to 20. Then they get booted for 30 real-time minutes.
The "map" idea- every thief I see takes stuff, runs off map to their tent, comes back with nothing to lose. If they got killed while stealing, and you could go to their tent and get a one-time only, take whatever you can carry from their tent. Caps, armor, whatever. Balances out the thieves no-loss for stealing. Of course I guess that they could use a friend to empty out that tent to another place of storage on another toon.
Wasteland is harsh, but 10% xp loss, a 30 minutes ban and your tent raided is ridiculous. And who gets to raid the tent?
If that's the case, there should be a similar penalty to those who allow themselves being stolen from.
From level 21 to 20 means another perk at level 21? After all such a harsh penalty should require a compensation.
People don't stop gathering xp when they reach level 21. My thief alt is currently over 500k xp. Meaning it won't lose a level.
The tent idea not only makes no sense, after all how the hell would you know where it is? Besides that, bases and shared tents solve the issue completely.
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I made a suggestion of "putting thieves in jail."
Their sprite does not actually get sent anywhere. They just get docked 10% exp for getting busted. If at max exp, they lose 10% of total in other words they get de-leveled to 20. Then they get booted for 30 real-time minutes.
The "map" idea- every thief I see takes stuff, runs off map to their tent, comes back with nothing to lose. If they got killed while stealing, and you could go to their tent and get a one-time only, take whatever you can carry from their tent. Caps, armor, whatever. Balances out the thieves no-loss for stealing. Of course I guess that they could use a friend to empty out that tent to another place of storage on another toon.
This is ridiculous. There needs to be some kind of incentive to keep thieving a viable part of the game. Re-working it would be nice though. Possibly make it so that a thief can't steal while he's weak - stealing involves dexterity. This will discourage thieves who go around stealing 'for lulz' because if they die, they'll have to wait 7-8 minutes before they can start stealing again. It's unlikely many of them will be able to put sufficient points into their doc skill to override this.
Maybe this has been said already, but there were seven damn pages I didn't feel like reading through.
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Actually my thief alt would have enough points to put in doc.
It would simply mean tagging doc instead of FA and putting the points there instead.
Than again, my thief isn't a powerbuild.
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Possibly make it so that a thief can't steal while he's weak
Thats possibly the first thing of worth this thread has thrown up :P
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Thats possibly the first thing of worth this thread has thrown up :P
Block skill use while weakened (except Doctor) is a good idea.
The other suggestions are standard MMO "fairness overrides".
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Block skill use while weakened (except Doctor) is a good idea.
The other suggestions are standard MMO "fairness overrides".
Heaven forbid some fairness in a game with other players. :o The stealing block while weakened isn't bad, but will not slow it down at all. *Steal* *get Caught, and killed* *Return to town, /y 'need doc/fa* *Steal again*--- Basically will just add a few seconds more to the timer of people. And slow down a little in less populated areas like mines, which who goes there anymore anyhow?!
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Doesn't matter, the block/weakened, how do we know if these thiefs are really weakened? We don't, they could easily doc themselves and stay at -10-11-12 hp to make it look like so and seem like they're just tryin to grief you and BAM. There goes 50% or more of your inventory. :P
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Heaven forbid some fairness in a game with other players. :o The stealing block while weakened isn't bad, but will not slow it down at all. *Steal* *get Caught, and killed* *Return to town, /y 'need doc/fa* *Steal again*--- Basically will just add a few seconds more to the timer of people. And slow down a little in less populated areas like mines, which who goes there anymore anyhow?!
Which is why protected status shouldn't be restored directly after dying.
Plenty of people go to mines: PK, crafters, players needing ammo, players needing caps, ...
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Which is why protected status shouldn't be restored directly after dying.
Plenty of people go to mines: PK, crafters, players needing ammo, players needing caps, ...
Agreed something like breaking the rules means you actually have to WAIT before going to the place where you broke the rules/'laws". Aww such a dream.
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Doesn't matter, the block/weakened, how do we know if these thiefs are really weakened? We don't, they could easily doc themselves and stay at -10-11-12 hp to make it look like so and seem like they're just tryin to grief you and BAM. There goes 50% or more of your inventory. :P
Yes, the griefing is still a problem with that. However if using Science to grief is removed as a possibility then this isn't a problem. Pretty sure we will have something for that on the wipe.
Heaven forbid some fairness in a game with other players. :o The stealing block while weakened isn't bad, but will not slow it down at all. *Steal* *get Caught, and killed* *Return to town, /y 'need doc/fa* *Steal again*--- Basically will just add a few seconds more to the timer of people. And slow down a little in less populated areas like mines, which who goes there anymore anyhow?!
Stealing timeout freezes when weakend. Weakened is harder/impossible to remove whilst there is a stealing countdown active.
When you get killed you must then wait out the weakened, then you must wait for stealing timeout. A real consequence to being killed for thieves then.
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So why do we still have weakened, anyway? It's incredibly easy to get rid of, particularly if you're not a loner. I'd say it only hampers a very minor percentage of the game's population. I don't see it changing people's behaviour, just encouraging them to take a five minute break.
I guess I just see weakened as a needlessly complicated way of solving the game's problems.
As for the stealing weakened thing, if you're going to place that many obstacles to PvP stealing, why include it at all? Either encourage it or completely remove it.
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I still like weakened. If anything it should be made to affect more rather than go.
As for weakened affecting thief, it stops them from being a constant pest and causes and effect to their getting caught and killed.
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I still like weakened. If anything it should be made to affect more rather than go.
As for weakened affecting thief, it stops them from being a constant pest and causes and effect to their getting caught and killed.
I get that, but they'll still be a pest. The problem's still there, it's just slightly more stretched out. To me it feels like you're just trying to frustrate thieves. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences, and thieves still aren't risking anything but their time. Which they're perfectly happy to do anyway.
As for weakened, I think it's just a blip on the radar for most people. I don't get how it improves gameplay. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences for death (which I think was the original intention) - death is either a pain in the ass if you don't have a huge stash of gear, or just a minor inconvenience if you do. As such, I don't really know what good it serves.
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I get that, but they'll still be a pest. The problem's still there, it's just slightly more stretched out. To me it feels like you're just trying to frustrate thieves. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences, and thieves still aren't risking anything but their time. Which they're perfectly happy to do anyway.
As for weakened, I think it's just a blip on the radar for most people. I don't get how it improves gameplay. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences for death (which I think was the original intention) - death is either a pain in the ass if you don't have a huge stash of gear, or just a minor inconvenience if you do. As such, I don't really know what good it serves.
Of course they'll still be a pest, they're damn thieves. You think thieves should be made so they're not annoying, so they're just like any other wastelander? They're thieves, they steal. It's what they do.
I don't see how you can just write off an 8 minute wait before they can steal again as opposed to the 2 minutes it is now, 1 for respawn and 1 to make it back to the city. They'll have to be more selective about who they hit and what they take. Nobody wants to run in, steal whatever they can, get shot, die, wait 8 minutes, come and do it again, etc.... Nobody's interested in playing a game every ten minutes and waiting out the rest.
I don't know how much you play, but if a thief comes into NCR asking for doc/fa he rarely receives the help as a number of people spread word not to help him. It's hard enough to get doc help there anyway, since no one gets xp from healing weakness, a lot of the docs tend to wait for someone with a lot of hp to come in so they can doc/fa them and get the most xp.
The steal animation fix that Solar was talking about will be a huge anti-grief movement. It will stop the people who do it to get first in line at the vendors as well. I think that along with making weakness actually do something will be a big step in the abuse of thieving. All those asking for much more are just people who want to get rid of PvP stealing as a whole, as the title of the thread says. That's stupid. It's not hard to avoid thieves, just move. I don't know how long it's been since I've had any manage to get anything from me, and I'm constantly in towns selling. You just have to pay attention to what's going on around you. That's a good habit to get into even in reality. No place in this game should be 100% safe from everything bad, except your base/tent.
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I don't see how you can just write off an 8 minute wait before they can steal again as opposed to the 2 minutes it is now, 1 for respawn and 1 to make it back to the city. They'll have to be more selective about who they hit and what they take. Nobody wants to run in, steal whatever they can, get shot, die, wait 8 minutes, come and do it again, etc.... Nobody's interested in playing a game every ten minutes and waiting out the rest.
I agree with TheGreenHand.
People will turn to fast relogging or dual logging using proxies. No difference from what most do already.
I disagree with weakened effecting the steal skill.
Or is weakened going to effect all skills, which would be more fair?
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I agree with TheGreenHand.
People will turn to fast relogging or dual logging using proxies. No difference from what most do already.
I don't think that's what he was saying. He was saying that an 8 minute stealing cooldown will be a significant deterrent for thieves, as to play as they do now (trying to steal everything) would lead to constant dying/cooldowns.
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I don't think that's what he was saying. He was saying that an 8 minute stealing cooldown will be a significant deterrent for thieves, as to play as they do now (trying to steal everything) would lead to constant dying/cooldowns.
Correct. And I'm all for stepping up the effects of weakness so it's actually something people want to avoid. I see people complain all the time on here about thieves/suicide bursters/pkers/etc who are able to run and do whatever they want to do then come back a minute later and do it again without any repercussions. It'd make it so people would actually try to avoid dying, for a start.
Of course it can't be too severe of a weakness penalty either, because there will always be the crews of heavily armed spawn campers who think they're sweet for killing as many people as possible without risking a fair fight. Can't discourage the few fair players in the game from playing because, again, nobody want's to just play a game every 8 minutes. But for those who don't have a doctor on hand 24/7, the time while weakened would be good for mining/resource gathering/crafting, or whatever other thing with a CD that people like to bitch about having to do.
As far as it promoting fast-relogging or dual-logging, what can you do. Those people will exploit that anyway no matter what the system is.
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I think to justify serious punishment for death you'd have to get rid of all the potentially stupid ways of dying. There are enough deaths in FOnline that you just couldn't have prevented.
I also think that if your solution can be bypassed by dual logging/proxies, there's a better solution out there. People will always find ways to sneak past it, and I think a fairer system or solution to any gameplay related problem is one that accepts that.
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It wasn't meant as a reflection of what he said, but as a consequence of what would happen.
You can't avoid dying in this game, so you can't avoid being weakened.
You will die while leveling, it's basically inevitable.
Most deaths occur in encounters and during TC.
Being punished for that makes no sense.
Just like being punished for being killed by a suicide bomber or suicide burster makes no sense.
8 minutes weakened means people will relog which only costs 2 more minutes or use fast relog.
So fair players are punished while exploiters can just carry on with business as usual.
You want to punish people for doing bad things in a town?
Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.
Have guards shoot them when they enter in that period.
They die, respawn close to that town, but can't enter it.
Which means they're forced to take their business to another town.
This prevents the "1 action per 8 minute" thing and therefore doesn't stimulate (fast) relogging and doesn't punish people for dying in the wasteland.
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Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.
I've just thought of something else to go alongside this.
How about a fine system - if you're caught in the NCR, you have to pay off a fine $100, otherwise your character is shot on sight in the NCR indefinitely. It doesn't help their victims, but if a thief wants to repeatedly operate in an area they have to pay to do so. I think that's a reasonable system.
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I fail to see what the difference would be, other than to those dying whilst stealing.
Weakened is hardly harsh now.
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You can't avoid dying in this game, so you can't avoid being weakened.
You will die while leveling, it's basically inevitable.
Most deaths occur in encounters and during TC.
Being punished for that makes no sense.
Just like being punished for being killed by a suicide bomber or suicide burster makes no sense.
I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, with the part about suicide bombers, but I think gameplay would benefit from making actual consequences for dying. It will make people think more about the creation of their players, as well as make you lose more while dying than one of your hundred 10mm SMG's you farmed off of NPCs and a handful of ammo. Combat skills definitely shouldn't be null during weakened, but something like a percentage decrease to them, whether a flat percentage drop or a percentage of your individual skill. Would you really be at top capacity to shoot a minigun immediately upon release from the hospital?
Yes deaths are inevitable, but the way they are now they hardly mean anything at all.
You want to punish people for doing bad things in a town?
Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.
Have guards shoot them when they enter in that period.
They die, respawn close to that town, but can't enter it.
Which means they're forced to take their business to another town.
This makes sense.
How about a fine system - if you're caught in the NCR, you have to pay off a fine $100, otherwise your character is shot on sight in the NCR indefinitely.
This doesn't. Can't come up with 100 caps one time and you can never enter a major city again? That's insane.
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This doesn't. Can't come up with 100 caps one time and you can never enter a major city again? That's insane.
If you're not able to rustle up 100 caps after getting caught committing a crime, you're probably a lost cause anyway.
You get caught, you get shot. Chances are, you had nothing on you. To compensate for this, when you respawn, you will need to scrape together 100 (maybe more) and drop them off at say, Fort Seth, before the NCR accepts you back into their city.
I don't see what's so insane about it. The only issue I can see is making it clear to the thief that's what they need to do after they've been caught and shot in the face. Maybe just have the guards at every entrance shout it, and if they come any further into the city they get shot.
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Except for dying you can also get weakened due to usage of the doc skill going wrong.
The penalty for that is that your injury or injuries didn't heal or that you're still weakened.
I don't think you should add an extra penalty for that.
I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, with the part about suicide bombers, but I think gameplay would benefit from making actual consequences for dying. It will make people think more about the creation of their players, as well as make you lose more while dying than one of your hundred 10mm SMG's you farmed off of NPCs and a handful of ammo. Combat skills definitely shouldn't be null during weakened, but something like a percentage decrease to them, whether a flat percentage drop or a percentage of your individual skill. Would you really be at top capacity to shoot a minigun immediately upon release from the hospital?
Yes deaths are inevitable, but the way they are now they hardly mean anything at all.
If being weakened effects skills, it should effect all skills.
You said in an earlier reply to go crafting or mining, but that too doesn't make any sense when weakened.
You're weakened, so how could you physically be able to mine?
You don't have the skill to use a gun, than you also lack the science or repair skill to craft.
To me it starts to sound more and more as some kind of ice hockey penalty where you have to sit out your penalty and watch the game from the side.
I'm against that.
I don't see what's so insane about it. The only issue I can see is making it clear to the thief that's what they need to do after they've been caught and shot in the face. Maybe just have the guards at every entrance shout it, and if they come any further into the city they get shot.
What's the point in this?
What should the thief compensate NCR for?
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If being weakened effects skills, it should effect all skills.
You said in an earlier reply to go crafting or mining, but that too doesn't make any sense when weakened.
You're weakened, so how could you physically be able to mine?
You don't have the skill to use a gun, than you also lack the science or repair skill to craft.
I disagree. I don't see why science or repair should be affected. Also, I said you could still have the skill to use a gun, it would just have a penalty to it; like blindness, only not as drastic. And regarding mining, again I don't think it should be something that should be nixed completely during weakness. I could see a reduced carry weight, which would make sense to be physically weakened during weakness. If that's the case, and ST were to be reduced, that itself could be enough to affect the use of a gun and an additional detriment would be unnecessary. I think the only skills that should be completely unusable during weakness would be steal and FA.
And as far as the weakness as a result of a critical fail on a heal goes... It's a critical fail. You screwed up. Critically. So that's a bad thing.
What's the point in this?
What should the thief compensate NCR for?
Agreed. I remain unconvinced that this is not insane.
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What's the point in this?
What should the thief compensate NCR for?
Sounds like a bribery option to get off the hook although if the thief stole something significant it would take more than a small 100cap bribe. Then it raises questions about the integrity of the guards, should they be able to be paid off in advance to give you the ability to stalk and steal till you are spotted by your target?
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1.If noticed by NPC guards, Failed steal results in a shoot on sight, in said "guarded" town for 15 minutes. Only on a re-entry.
2.A successfull steal, should make them unprotected to the person they robbed.
3.Only players "real" awareness will save them from being robbed or gunning hiim down b4 he gets away.
4.MSG that alerts player of failed steal should be in capitals and red.
5.Guards shouldlt loot a dead player. So said player has a chance ( a small chance, cuz everyone will swarm and try to get items) to get his stuff back.
Ox.
EDIT: But i must say, after playing for so long, You learn the tricks to avoid them. It wouldnt bother me, if it was left as is.
In a world where u cant show of ur car or whatever...... I mean ur hanging out with ur mates in NCR smokin cigarettes. and a bluesuiter walks up and says hi, then proceeds to steal ur car while u just smoke ur smoke and watch.....
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I disagree. I don't see why science or repair should be affected. Also, I said you could still have the skill to use a gun, it would just have a penalty to it; like blindness, only not as drastic. And regarding mining, again I don't think it should be something that should be nixed completely during weakness. I could see a reduced carry weight, which would make sense to be physically weakened during weakness. If that's the case, and ST were to be reduced, that itself could be enough to affect the use of a gun and an additional detriment would be unnecessary. I think the only skills that should be completely unusable during weakness would be steal and FA.
And as far as the weakness as a result of a critical fail on a heal goes... It's a critical fail. You screwed up. Critically. So that's a bad thing.
Agreed. I remain unconvinced that this is not insane.
You're weakened, just left the "hospital" etc.
So you're still dizzy, fealing weak, etc, you can't think straight yet.
That should effect science and repair too.
Perhaps weakened should effect SPECIAL instead of skills.
But than we're back to square 1 as when it doesn't effect skills, it doesn't effect stealing which seems to be the point.
I disagree with stealing being the only skill being useless when weakened. That's nerving.
The problem with the critical failure of a doc is that someone might have used his doc skill on you and failed while doing so.
With the amount of grievers in this game, the creativity in finding new ways to grieve, I'm sure we'll see LK 1 docs appear.
1.If noticed by NPC guards, Failed steal results in a shoot on sight, in said "guarded" town for 15 minutes. Only on a re-entry.
2.A successfull steal, should make them unprotected to the person they robbed.
3.Only players "real" awareness will save them from being robbed or gunning hiim down b4 he gets away.
4.MSG that alerts player of failed steal should be in capitals and red.
5.Guards shouldlt loot a dead player. So said player has a chance ( a small chance, cuz everyone will swarm and try to get items) to get his stuff back.
Ox.
EDIT: But i must say, after playing for so long, You learn the tricks to avoid them. It wouldnt bother me, if it was left as is.
In a world where u cant show of ur car or whatever...... I mean ur hanging out with ur mates in NCR smokin cigarettes. and a bluesuiter walks up and says hi, then proceeds to steal ur car while u just smoke ur smoke and watch.....
1. I think the time should depend on your rep with the town. Half an hour for neutral, longer for worse, less for better. Assuming it will be harder to increase rep. Some kind of rep increasing quest by the leader of the town could be nice.
2. A successful steal is a successful steal. Meaning no protection is lost.
3. People should pay attention, agreed. Still things like the victims PE and the thief's perks should be taken into consideration as well. Like it is now. Thieves are more likely to fail on players with high PE.
4. No need to change the current situation. Sometimes guards notice a failed steal and the victim doesn't, sometimes it's the other way around and only the victim notices. That shouldn't change. As for the color of the guards message, keep it like it is now. Normal. As you said in point 3, people should pay attention. That goes for the messages too.
5. Disagree. Guards should always loot and shoot looters. It's their town. Loot should be an extra source of income for them to compensate for the risks of their jobs.
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What's the point in this?
What should the thief compensate NCR for?
If a thief has to pay a fine at the guarded town they were caught at, there's several consequences:
1. They're forced to actually do something, rather than wait for a timeout to count down.
2. They're taking money out of the economy.
3. They're forced to be more selective - there's no point stealing someone's log pile as they may have to pay 100 caps (or whatever) for the privilege.
4. They can't bypass the penalty with a proxy - the character will owe the town money indefinitely. It doesn't matter if they switch characters for a while, when they come back Thief10 will still need to pay off his fines before he can operate in the NCR again.
To me that's better than making thieves log out/stand around/switch characters for 8 minutes.
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If a thief has to pay a fine at the guarded town they were caught at, there's several consequences:
1. They're forced to actually do something, rather than wait for a timeout to count down.
2. They're taking money out of the economy.
3. They're forced to be more selective - there's no point stealing someone's log pile as they may have to pay 100 caps (or whatever) for the privilege.
4. They can't bypass the penalty with a proxy - the character will owe the town money indefinitely. It doesn't matter if they switch characters for a while, when they come back Thief10 will still need to pay off his fines before he can operate in the NCR again.
To me that's better than making thieves log out/stand around/switch characters for 8 minutes.
1. Some kind of quest to regain access and/or rep. would make sense. This doesn't.
2. Are they? What assumption do you base that upon? By far not every victim goes to town to trade. Some go there to craft, others just to chat or for whatever other reasons people like to stand on the NCR bazar. Even more, my thief has 3 CH in order to be able to trade useless stuff for useful stuff. I might steal stuff and trade while the victim wasn't planning on trading it. If I stealing from a VC citizen in NCR, which economy am I taking money out? Should I be punished by both factions?
3. A "fee" to be allowed to steal doesn't force thieves to be selective. It's server side grieving. Not allowing town access for a while is more likely forcing thieves to be selective. On top of that, some thieves are already selective.
4. I can't think of any bad action in this game which has indefinite consequences. I'm not in favor of introducing any. Again, this sounds like server side grieving.
As I said in an earlier reply, losing protection should result in not being allowed back into town for 30-60 minutes.
Players than have the choice to move on to another town or to relog.
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A fee does nothing to stop the problem, they pay the fee and they're annoying people again.
Banning them from a town achieves basically the same thing as far as the town is concearned, but doesn't punish the thief for getting caught.
Weakened/FA stops them from annoying everyone in the town for the duration of the weakness and punishes the thief for failing too. It has no drawbacks other than you can cheat passed it, which is the case with most things. Only thing to do is to ban both characters when they are caught - and to begin checking these things as actively as we were before.
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I've noticed we have no thieves in Redding. We must be exploiting or something since they always get caught.
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Making them be KoS in a town does far more than nothing. If thieves actually have to pay for their crimes, they one may consider a different route, and two, certainly aren't going to be in Guarded towns til their rep drops back down, which should take the normal amount of time any rep change takes. Yay an unguarded town is safe from thieves, probably because they really can't 'safely' bug players.
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Making them be KoS in a town does far more than nothing. If thieves actually have to pay for their crimes, they one may consider a different route, and two, certainly aren't going to be in Guarded towns til their rep drops back down, which should take the normal amount of time any rep change takes. Yay an unguarded town is safe from thieves, probably because they really can't 'safely' bug players.
Get saved from a thief only to be robbed by PKers :)
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Yes, being KoS achieves the same thing as the Weakened/Steal timeout thing. That what I meant, expect my sentence was garbled. The thing it doesn't do is stop the thief from going to another town and thus suffering no real slow down.
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Yes, being KoS achieves the same thing as the Weakened/Steal timeout thing. That what I meant, expect my sentence was garbled. The thing it doesn't do is stop the thief from going to another town and thus suffering no real slow down.
Well first he has to respawn near the guarded town he died at. Then he has to travel to the next guarded town, and try his luck there. If he eventually finds someone worth stealing from, and is successful, he then has to travel back to his tent which is likely near the first town.
To me, that seems reasonable as well as an actual punishment - as well as a lot less artificial than 'you're too exhausted to steal'. If they want to keep stealing, they have to physically do something rather than stand around (which is what they'll most likely do - thief builds seem too specialised to be any good at anything else) . If it's not harsh enough, we bump up the fine and make it so they're KOS in all guarded towns.
I also don't understand why a timeout is considered a punishment but having to pay money isn't.
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Well first he has to respawn near the guarded town he died at. Then he has to travel to the next guarded town, and try his luck there. If he eventually finds someone worth stealing from, and is successful, he then has to travel back to his tent which is likely near the first town.
To me, that seems reasonable as well as an actual punishment - as well as a lot less artificial than 'you're too exhausted to steal'.
Why is stealing while exhausted 'artificial' to you? Stealing involves dexterity. You don't see people coming out of the hospital still drugged up jumping on a high wire and performing a juggling routine.
And why is that not punishment enough? Being killed on sight for a limited time as well as a reasonable CD isn't enough? But I guess the title of the thread says how you feel about it.
If they want to keep stealing, they have to physically do something rather than stand around (which is what they'll most likely do - thief builds seem too specialised to be any good at anything else) .
Yes, thieves do require specialized builds, they already require a much higher skill than any crafter or combat character just to be decent. All the more reason why the penalties shouldn't be too severe.
If it's not harsh enough, we bump up the fine and make it so they're KOS in all guarded towns.
I also don't understand why a timeout is considered a punishment but having to pay money isn't.
Sometimes I have a hard time telling whether you're joking about all this or not. KOS in all guarded towns? So a thief can make a couple of steals every half hour, then it's completely useless everywhere? Stealing is not an exploit, it's a part of the game. If you want a game without thieves, there are plenty out there. I hate to use the cliche, but.... wastelands are harsh, and that's what makes this Fallout.
No place in this game should be 100% safe. No place in the world we live in today is 100% safe and these are a lot harsher conditions, which is what makes the game interesting. If you're trying to get rid of thieves, it's not going to happen. If you have something to offer which would make the current steal system more balanced, then do so. I would suggest starting a solo thief character just so you get the hang of it so you can see which parts of it need that balancing out.
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I also don't understand why a timeout is considered a punishment but having to pay money isn't.
Because you can't pay your way past time. If the goal is to stop thieves coming back constantly, then making them pay some amount of caps does not achieve this, unless it makes it sufficiently worthless to steal at all. Which isn't the aim.
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Heres a suggestion, if someone steals from you and fails, a red(as an example) timer appears over his head signifying that you ,and only you, can engage him without guards interfering. This timer is for your character (maybe clan ?) only, and it doesn't go away if he leaves and comes back. Maybe you can make it so that all players witnessing the steal attempt can engage as well, but even just personal would be a good step.
The timer should be something like 30-60 minutes, or something long enough to make sure that while stealing stays useable on others, while greatly decreasing the ability of some idiot trolling certain shops/areas/you for the fun of just f****** with people.
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Heres a suggestion, if someone steals from you and fails, a red(as an example) timer appears over his head signifying that you ,and only you, can engage him without guards interfering. This timer is for your character (maybe clan ?) only, and it doesn't go away if he leaves and comes back. Maybe you can make it so that all players witnessing the steal attempt can engage as well, but even just personal would be a good step.
The timer should be something like 30-60 minutes, or something long enough to make sure that while stealing stays useable on others, while greatly decreasing the ability of some idiot trolling certain shops/areas/you for the fun of just f****** with people.
I don't see the benefit of this over the current system of the guards saying "XXXX, that was pathetic" and the thief becoming unprotected.
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Sorry Solar, I get ya now. And as far as only being attackable by the one you failed to steal from, and the guards going 'that was pathetic' they should be like "XXXXX IS A THIEF AND A PATHETIC ONE" So everyone can know.
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The whole "the wasteland is a harsh place" argument for letting pvp theft run rampant is total crap. Its true that stealing would occur in the wasteland, but there would be one critical difference: death would be permanent. In other words, some annoying ass would not return after being caught and killed. Alternatively, the thief would be heavily branded to mark him as such or have several fingers cut off to prevent future stealing. Or both. Not to mention the fact that stealing anything larger than a wallet would be nearly impossible in real life. Closed pockets, anyone? Duh? Pockets inside of a vest? Locked backpack? There are ways to prevent pickpocketing, but none are available in fonline. Why? If the thieves are going to get superpowers and infinite lives, plus no reasonable repercussions for thievery, then the targets should at least have a penalty-free and OBVIOUS means of recourse. All thieves (caught or not) should be marked as enemies, outlined in red, and have their names recorded in the pipboy for at least a week (as targets). Honestly, if a thief failed once (or a few times) word would get around. It would be KNOWN that the person was a thief. The cities just are not big enough to "meld into the crowd," generally. Alternatively, there should be a "safe" inventory (say a container in the inventory) that can hold stuff and be totally thief proof (as well as invisible to others while alive). Real world counterpart: inside vest pockets. (and don't start with the "they're just that good" nonsense. Personal space, anyone? if someone bumps into you in a wide open not-crowded space, it would be obvious that he or she is a thief or idiotically clumsy. In the wasteland, the automatic assumption would be the former. This would make stealing from a front pocket effectively impossible, especially if it was closed, and definitely if it was inside of a closed coat.) Perhaps it could only hold a few things or a percentage of carry weight. Even better: the more times a character has had steal used on him, the harder it would be to steal from him. This may be the perfect solution. Similar to the current system, but each steal attempt raises "theft AC" until it becomes effectively impossible to steal from that person. This TAC would be temporary, lasting perhaps a few days. Thus, thieves could do their crap, but would have to move on once someone "wised up" and started taking appropriate precautions. This would prevent some thief ass from ragging on someone and, hopefully, would be less annoying in general. It would also be more realistic than the current system (then again, almost anything would).
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When I start this game I was rob a few time.. I was to naive and didn't see it coming, hell once I didn't even see when and who took everything from me - that was nice. I wasn't mad at them but on me.
But when some troll thief is fallowing me everywhere, spaming science on me, making fun of me, and making me unable to even stop and talk to some new friend - that,s is bullsh1t sir.
In this scaled 'Harsh wasteland' I would just punch the ugly mutherf... and continue talk like nothing ever happen. So if u wanna use "harsh wasteland' argument u need to considerate 2 side of coin.
I know I know u can only call some a thief if u catch him red handed, but if there is only U and One guy in whole freaking town he stand next to u and u see u dont have some or all of ur items what u say:
a) Hmm I think I have lost my minigun somewhere ohhh well.
b) U pice of sh1t give back my minigun *put shotgun into his mouth* NOW!
b1) He give ur stuff back
b2) Pull triger
But option b2 is impossible coz in 'safe' town guard will kill u and thief lose nothing, and b1 ? he will laughing for days from u after hearing that.
And like Harry tell some marked as a thief shouldn't have a easy life in this small community what we have here.
but that just my opinion, and no I dodn;t play as thief coz I don't like to take something from people who worked hard for it especially some bluesiute who have almost nothing as a lot of u thief do - thx to that we got a lot of rage quit, maybe less that Pk but still.
PS sorry of my English
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The whole "the wasteland is a harsh place" argument for letting pvp theft run rampant is total crap. Its true that stealing would occur in the wasteland, but there would be one critical difference: death would be permanent. Alternatively, the thief would be heavily branded to mark him as such or have several fingers cut off to prevent future stealing. Or both.
Not to mention the fact that stealing anything larger than a wallet would be nearly impossible in real life.
Yeah, well surviving a shot in the eyes with any type of gun would also be impossible in real life, as is taking a drug that makes you more charismatic, as are deathclaws and aliens roaming the deserts, as is respawning, which you yourself mentioned. Obviously this is adapted to make gameplay interesting. The same argument can be made for the rest that you were ranting about.
But when some troll thief is fallowing me everywhere, spaming science on me, making fun of me, and making me unable to even stop and talk to some new friend - that,s is bullsh1t sir.
I agree, trolling thieves suck. But they have mentioned that the steal animation will be changed so this will no longer be a problem in the near future.
But option b2 is impossible coz in 'safe' town guard will kill u and thief lose nothing, and b1 ? he will laughing for days from u after hearing that.
Well that's realistic though. Can you prove that minigun was yours? Did it have your name on it? If the guards didn't see it, they have no way of knowing whose it is. They just see you haul off and kill someone, which would be grounds for killing you, in my opinion.
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I dont know if this has been mentioned allready, but I think its idiotic that you can be "pickpocketed" when your dealing with merchant.
There should be safe zones.
And many times the barter screen is on your character so you cant really pay attention if someone is standing next to you because you cant see shit.
Make the bartering safe zones from stealing.
Just my two cents.
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I dont know if this has been mentioned allready, but I think its idiotic that you can be "pickpocketed" when your dealing with merchant.
There should be safe zones.
And many times the barter screen is on your character so you cant really pay attention if someone is standing next to you because you cant see shit.
Make the bartering safe zones from stealing.
The devs have mentioned that they're not interested in making safe zones, which is a good thing. To recap a little from this lengthy thread, the stealing animation will be changed either with 3D or the next wipe, I'm not sure which. But this alone will solve much of the trolling problem.
As for not being able to see when bartering, you can move the barter window or, a better option, download a new skin, either Ras or Pure Evil. Both are very well done and I believe have options for transparent dialog windows. I use Ras Clear, you can see right through your barter window so you can see everything going on behind it.
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I really like the idea, that weakened status should affect your skills. When weakened, all skills would have 50% (or so) penalty to chance to succeed. Or better, every minute of weakened state should give you 10% penalty.
And when talking about it, it should be possible to remove weakened by say, eating some food and drinking some water?
As for other solutions...
Unprotected status should remain after death, and it's lenght should be according to thieves reputation.
Along with animation changes, griefers should have much harder time.
Also don't forget about day/night changes in the perception and stuff. Personally, i would like thieves prowling in sneak at night time in the Hub.
To tell the truth, i would like Thieves to use skills, that are incriesed by http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Thief perk. Sneak, Lock pick, Steal, and Traps skills. But i understand, this would be really hard to implement now.
OT: The fact, that even with the lowest Science, you can dissasemble complex weapon/armor in notime bothers me a lot more. And it's without cooldown as well, to make it even worse.
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I just got back from NCR... dead
Why is that?
Because i tried to sell freshly crafted flamers to the store
half of them were stolen before i could drag them into barter screen and guards didn't do anything about it
I've left screen space to observe if any thief was after me but exiting from barter screen took enough time for a thief to steal most of my stuff
When i tried to attack thief for that the guards got me splattered all over the floor AND THEN didn't bother to collect my stuff so the thief robbed me from all my possessions
What i mean is: THERE IS NO FREAKIN' DEFENSE AGAINST THIEVES!
and that is f*cked up and need to be repaired
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I just got back from NCR... dead
Why is that?
Because i tried to sell freshly crafted flamers to the store
half of them were stolen before i could drag them into barter screen and guards didn't do anything about it
I've left screen space to observe if any thief was after me but exiting from barter screen took enough time for a thief to steal most of my stuff
When i tried to attack thief for that the guards got me splattered all over the floor AND THEN didn't bother to collect my stuff so the thief robbed me from all my possessions
What i mean is: THERE IS NO FREAKIN' DEFENSE AGAINST THIEVES!
and that is f*cked up and need to be repaired
Then how thieves would steal items? You want thieves to fail all the time and be unable to steal your possessions? Remove steal skill at all?
Oh noes! I was walking in wasteland with 100kk caps in my inventory! Some guy appeared in encounter and shot with bazooka! This is very very bad, remove bazookas from game, I hate them! BG skill is broken!! Remove guys appearing in the wasteland! Make me invulnerable to bazookas!
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Did you notice the capital letters at all??
I've said that there is NO DEFENSE against thieves and THAT should be fixed
Did i say anything about disabling stealing? NO! So be good boy and read carefully next time before you start saying random stuff okay?
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Did you noticed the capital letter at all??
I've said that there is NO DEFENSE against thieves and THAT should be fixed
Did i say anything about disabling stealing? NO! So be good boy and read carefully next time before you start saying random stuff okay?
Situation #1:
You're standing and looking on the ground infront of you and doing nothing (95% of time people doing that in NCR):
1) A thief moves his hands behind you.
2a) Move cursor to hex infront of you.
3a) Press left mouse button.
2b) Don't carry items in your inventory.
3b) Check inventory if he's planting dynamite to you.
4b) Disarm dynamite so you won't die (if you have enough HP).
2c) Carry something heavy in your hand slot.
3c) Just ignore him, he can't steal anything from you because you have nothing in inventory and can't plant, because you have full carry weight.
Situatuion #2:
You're trading with Sha Enin (or some other unpopular trader):
1) Someone in bluesuit moves hands behind you.
2a) Press "ESC".
3a) Move 1 hex infront of you (or to make >1 hex between you and bluesuiter)
4a) Continue trading with Sha Enin (or some other unpopular trader).
2b) Carry only 2 items for sale and put them in both hands.
3b) Start talk to Sha Enin (or some other unpopular trader) and wait till bluesuiter checks you.
4b) Check inventory if it's a dynamite, disarm it if it is.
5b) Observe Sha Enin's (or some other unpopular trader) inventory to plan trading.
6b) Move items to inventory, sell/exchange them.
2c) Trade anywhere but NCR.
2d) Walk from Vortis.
2e) Stop craft flamers lol, craft something better and in one slot, like ammo or powders, you'll know price and numbers, just keep it in hands and don't walk from bazaar, if only you'll go check Mira/doc/Dusty and then return to Sha Enin/Buster/iguana.
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I don't like how you can't exit barter screen in one click when you see someone stealing from you. I would like to see a key press that would exit barter and fail steal attempt on you at same time as if to say 'aha caught you' - would be nice to see that appear above your head as well.
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Dude! But it's my right to sell flamers. And i cant put them all in a single hand slot. (even though they are all brand new and empty) Plus my carry weight was 138/124 at the moment
Plus Phoenix is absolutely right
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I don't like how you can't exit barter screen in one click when you see someone stealing from you. I would like to see a key press that would exit barter and fail steal attempt on you at same time as if to say 'aha caught you' - would be nice to see that appear above your head as well.
So abussable :)
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Protips
Yeye whatever, everything can be overbreached. Personally the best way to avoid thieves is to gtfo from where they are. GG, the game encourages people to abandon each other.
I like how it's in TC towns. Once this so called famous ncr sneak thief comes to Redding and steals my m60. I shoot him. No retard npc is going to protect him there.
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So abussable :)
How is it abusable? Would you actually let somebody pickpocket you in a store when you can see them doing it? or would you say WTF do you think your doing and probably smack them one?
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How is it abusable? Would you actually let somebody pickpocket you in a store when you can see them doing it? or would you say WTF do you think your doing and probably smack them one?
you can't 'smack them one' unless you're character catches them red-handed. Even when you do catch and kill them they will be back in a matter of 2 minutes and if they managed to get anything from you the guards will likely get it after you kill them.
Thief greifers will chase you all over town threatening to steal from you and if you don't want to risk it you will have to run. Can you imagine a real thief safely doing that?
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IMO you act like you have a thief char who doesn't want stealing at bater screen made harder as you wouldn't be able to steal as much.
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IMO you act like you have a thief char who doesn't want stealing at bater screen made harder as you wouldn't be able to steal as much.
errr... I'm just telling it like it is Pheonix, but In fact, no, I don't play as a thief. If you look at my post history then you'll see that I advocate harsher punishment and increased risk for thieves, not the other way around.
I'm not really sure how you reached that conclusion anyway...
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1. people don't re-spawn in RL
2. I wasn't on about actually attacking the thief in game I was on about being able to react fast and to be able to cancel thier steal attempt.
3. Real life is harsh, FACT. But you are able to react to it as soon as you have noticed what is going on. Which was the point I was trying to make, and IMO in game needs some adjusting so that you can react fast when you have noticed what is happening instead off seeing what is happening, clicking here then there and there, bugger too late and they have left already.
4. you can't of read properly what I posted first to which I commented on a comment on my post otherwise you wouldn't have posted this comment.
Then you come in with
you can't 'smack them one' unless you're character catches them red-handed.
(but when you can see them doing this you should be able to have an affect on the situation as you are the character catching them red-handed)
Even when you do catch and kill them they will be back in a matter of 2 minutes and if they managed to get anything from you the guards will likely get it after you kill them.
(I wasn't on about killing them)
Thief greifers will chase you all over town threatening to steal from you and if you don't want to risk it you will have to run.
(happens in real life just as it does with other things like people trying to attack, rape, murder and they will chase you until you can get to safety for the time being )
Can you imagine a real thief safely doing that?
(yes they will follow you all over town, county even country as long as they think you have something valuable enough, how many modes of transport have been hi-jacked over the years from wage wagons to the great train robbery. albeit they follow sneakily)
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...ok, still not sure how I came out looking like a thief.
but for future reference hitting the escape key twice quickly will get you completely out of the barter dialogue. I usually hit it once if I see something suspicious and get ready to exit dialogue window next if I need to. It always works for me and the only time I get robbed is when I'm consciously baiting a thief, and then I usually kill him.
IMO the real problem is that once you kill a caught thief he will be back in a matter of minutes doing the same thing, which doesn't bother me if he isn't griefing but imo It's the lack of risk which needs to be addressed with thieves first and for most.
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I don't like how you can't exit barter screen in one click when you see someone stealing from you. I would like to see a key press that would exit barter and fail steal attempt on you at same time as if to say 'aha caught you' - would be nice to see that appear above your head as well.
So abussable :)
How is it abusable? Would you actually let somebody pickpocket you in a store when you can see them doing it? or would you say WTF do you think your doing and probably smack them one?
How is it abusable? answer the question instead of saying but you cant smack them one when I wasn't on about punching them I was making a comparison to RL when you are given a choice of how to respond - smacking them being the instinctive but legally wrong thing to do, if you had just stated that pressing Esc twice cancels the dialogue screen it would have been constructive instead of just stating that you can't attack which gives the impression of though luck, which in turn sounds like I'm glad you can't attack me.
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Scrap stealing in towns already! (for at least 30 seconds after characters enters the city)
When i want enter NCR to craft something, often the VERY FIRST thing i see is a thief just running away from me after having stolen all the materials i needed for crafting that didn't fit in both my hands!
That is sooo sick, annoying and unfair.
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Why don't you just set your tent by VC then?
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IMO the easiest way is to make tagging an anti-theft ability. Just tag him and he is now unable to steal from you. That does not protect you from 2 thieves at the same time, but most them work alone anyway.
Or, if this can't be done why not make shopkeepers in guarded towns able to detect thievery in 100% ? As far as I'm concerned shop thievery if the most annoying and shopkeepers should not allow this happening on their premises. Still, if you don't have a gun in your hand, the thief is gonna run away with your stuff anyway.
About the repair/science/whatever animation used on you while shopping etc. why not disable them when there is a person in 1 hex radius? And disable animations of first aid and doc when the 'healed' player has 100% HP.
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Scrap stealing in towns already! (for at least 30 seconds after characters enters the city)
That's some slow loading.
If you don't want to lose items, don't enter NCR with them. If you don't get stolen from, you might get shot.
Never enter NCR at the bazar, it's where most thieves are in NCR. Enter and leave at Vortis.
Better would be to move your base of operations to another town.
IMO the easiest way is to make tagging an anti-theft ability. Just tag him and he is now unable to steal from you. That does not protect you from 2 thieves at the same time, but most them work alone anyway.
Or, if this can't be done why not make shopkeepers in guarded towns able to detect thievery in 100% ? As far as I'm concerned shop thievery if the most annoying and shopkeepers should not allow this happening on their premises. Still, if you don't have a gun in your hand, the thief is gonna run away with your stuff anyway.
About the repair/science/whatever animation used on you while shopping etc. why not disable them when there is a person in 1 hex radius? And disable animations of first aid and doc when the 'healed' player has 100% HP.
As far as we know there will be changes next session, including the animation.
Thieving has been nerved already, but it seems so have player's intelligence. You can avoid thieves 100% of the time by simply paying attention.
Someone walks or runs at you when you're trading. You move away.
Someone comes and stands next to you. You move away.
Thieving is expected near traders as people trading have goods.
You can have a gun in your hand, thieves walk away nevertheless if they didn't fail.
To avoid at least 80% of the thieves, don't visit NCR.
Hub, Junktown and VC have far less thieves.
Unguarded northern cities have none. You should be able to trade safely in Redding when an APK faction is in control. Simply check downtown using the preview and talk to the people there before entering with your goods.
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I agree with everything HertogJan said. I do a lot of trading with NPC's and haven't had anyone manage to steal from me in forever. Stealing has been nerfed enough already, and we need to keep it so that it is still an appealing "profession" for characters.
The animation change and the potential "No stealing while weak" thing will minimize it's use as a trolling device, which is really the issue here. Other than that, you should be responsible for being aware of what's going on around you.
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Why don't you just set your tent by VC then?
It's not really about how hard or easy is avoiding to be stolen from. But the fact it undermines social and multiplayer aspect of the game.
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It's not really about how hard or easy is avoiding to be stolen from. But the fact it undermines social and multiplayer aspect of the game.
There are more social and multiplayer aspects in PvP stealing than in PvE trading.
Most "problems" with stealing seem to be related to the NCR bazar. NCR bazar is crowded. One should expect pickpockets at crowded bazars.
A majority of the player base seems to lack maturity and as a result also a lack of social skills.
Biggest part of the multiplayer aspect seems to be about:
- being killed or killing and as a result in being in the biggest and best equiped group possible at that specific time
- idling or chatting in NCR/Junktown/the Hub/VC/Redding (last 1 not including faction members guarding Redding)
I would say that's 85-90%. The other 10-15% are joined hunts, TC and the occassional event.
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my two cents:
i mostly agree that pvp stealing should be scrapped. At least while your shopping. It really becomes a pain when you have to watch every second if someone is approaching you while youre doing simplest transactions... It doesnt matter if youre loosing little, its still annoying, especially if youre low level/new to the game.(like i am)
So as for the realism of the wastleand, i say fine. It should be possible but under certain conditions, as lots of people said there is virtually no risk for the thief, because of the alts and respawning.
Here is a set of ideas:
1. Disable stealing while someone is trading.
2.Allow that if someone fails or succeds stealing, the player that has been stolen from can retaliate.
3.Guards attack if they notice thieving attempt
4.Simply make it harder. If area is lighted(like someone noted, with engine changes etc) if more people are around, if more guards are around, you scale roll required for success.
also i personally believe that alts suck, and it kinda ruins the point and all the famed realism(if "thieving is realistic" is being advocated)
This game really has a great role playing potential, especially because it relies a lot on player-player actions, and its such a shame that there are so many trolls/suicide bombers etc.