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[Solar]

Doesn't matter, the block/weakened, how do we know if these thiefs are really weakened?  We don't, they could easily doc themselves and stay at -10-11-12 hp to make it look like so and seem like they're just tryin to grief you and BAM.  There goes 50% or more of your inventory.

Yes, the griefing is still a problem with that. However if using Science to grief is removed as a possibility then this isn't a problem. Pretty sure we will have something for that on the wipe.

Heaven forbid some fairness in a game with other players.    The stealing block while weakened isn't bad, but will not slow it down at all.  *Steal*  *get Caught, and killed*  *Return to town, /y 'need doc/fa* *Steal again*---  Basically will just add a few seconds more to the timer of people.  And slow down a little in less populated areas like mines, which who goes there anymore anyhow?!

Stealing timeout freezes when weakend. Weakened is harder/impossible to remove whilst there is a stealing countdown active.

When you get killed you must then wait out the weakened, then you must wait for stealing timeout. A real consequence to being killed for thieves then.

[Badger]

So why do we still have weakened, anyway? It's incredibly easy to get rid of, particularly if you're not a loner. I'd say it only hampers a very minor percentage of the game's population. I don't see it changing people's behaviour, just encouraging them to take a five minute break.

I guess I just see weakened as a needlessly complicated way of solving the game's problems.

As for the stealing weakened thing, if you're going to place that many obstacles to PvP stealing, why include it at all? Either encourage it or completely remove it.

[Solar]

I still like weakened. If anything it should be made to affect more rather than go.

As for weakened affecting thief, it stops them from being a constant pest and causes and effect to their getting caught and killed.

[Badger]

I still like weakened. If anything it should be made to affect more rather than go.

As for weakened affecting thief, it stops them from being a constant pest and causes and effect to their getting caught and killed.

I get that, but they'll still be a pest. The problem's still there, it's just slightly more stretched out. To me it feels like you're just trying to frustrate thieves. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences, and thieves still aren't risking anything but their time. Which they're perfectly happy to do anyway.

As for weakened, I think it's just a blip on the radar for most people. I don't get how it improves gameplay. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences for death (which I think was the original intention) - death is either a pain in the ass if you don't have a huge stash of gear, or just a minor inconvenience if you do. As such, I don't really know what good it serves.

[TheGreenHand]

I get that, but they'll still be a pest. The problem's still there, it's just slightly more stretched out. To me it feels like you're just trying to frustrate thieves. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences, and thieves still aren't risking anything but their time. Which they're perfectly happy to do anyway.

As for weakened, I think it's just a blip on the radar for most people. I don't get how it improves gameplay. I don't think it adds meaningful consequences for death (which I think was the original intention) - death is either a pain in the ass if you don't have a huge stash of gear, or just a minor inconvenience if you do. As such, I don't really know what good it serves.

Of course they'll still be a pest, they're damn thieves. You think thieves should be made so they're not annoying, so they're just like any other wastelander? They're thieves, they steal. It's what they do.

I don't see how you can just write off an 8 minute wait before they can steal again as opposed to the 2 minutes it is now, 1 for respawn and 1 to make it back to the city. They'll have to be more selective about who they hit and what they take. Nobody wants to run in, steal whatever they can, get shot, die, wait 8 minutes, come and do it again, etc.... Nobody's interested in playing a game every ten minutes and waiting out the rest.
I don't know how much you play, but if a thief comes into NCR asking for doc/fa he rarely receives the help as a number of people spread word not to help him. It's hard enough to get doc help there anyway, since no one gets xp from healing weakness, a lot of the docs tend to wait for someone with a lot of hp to come in so they can doc/fa them and get the most xp.

The steal animation fix that Solar was talking about will be a huge anti-grief movement. It will stop the people who do it to get first in line at the vendors as well. I think that along with making weakness actually do something will be a big step in the abuse of thieving. All those asking for much more are just people who want to get rid of PvP stealing as a whole, as the title of the thread says. That's stupid. It's not hard to avoid thieves, just move. I don't know how long it's been since I've had any manage to get anything from me, and I'm constantly in towns selling. You just have to pay attention to what's going on around you. That's a good habit to get into even in reality. No place in this game should be 100% safe from everything bad, except your base/tent.

[HertogJan]

I don't see how you can just write off an 8 minute wait before they can steal again as opposed to the 2 minutes it is now, 1 for respawn and 1 to make it back to the city. They'll have to be more selective about who they hit and what they take. Nobody wants to run in, steal whatever they can, get shot, die, wait 8 minutes, come and do it again, etc.... Nobody's interested in playing a game every ten minutes and waiting out the rest.

I agree with TheGreenHand.
People will turn to fast relogging or dual logging using proxies. No difference from what most do already.

I disagree with weakened effecting the steal skill.
Or is weakened going to effect all skills, which would be more fair?

[Badger]

I agree with TheGreenHand.
People will turn to fast relogging or dual logging using proxies. No difference from what most do already.

I don't think that's what he was saying. He was saying that an 8 minute stealing cooldown will be a significant deterrent for thieves, as to play as they do now (trying to steal everything) would lead to constant dying/cooldowns.

[TheGreenHand]

I don't think that's what he was saying. He was saying that an 8 minute stealing cooldown will be a significant deterrent for thieves, as to play as they do now (trying to steal everything) would lead to constant dying/cooldowns.

Correct. And I'm all for stepping up the effects of weakness so it's actually something people want to avoid. I see people complain all the time on here about thieves/suicide bursters/pkers/etc who are able to run and do whatever they want to do then come back a minute later and do it again without any repercussions. It'd make it so people would actually try to avoid dying, for a start.
Of course it can't be too severe of a weakness penalty either, because there will always be the crews of heavily armed spawn campers who think they're sweet for killing as many people as possible without risking a fair fight. Can't discourage the few fair players in the game from playing because, again, nobody want's to just play a game every 8 minutes. But for those who don't have a doctor on hand 24/7, the time while weakened would be good for mining/resource gathering/crafting, or whatever other thing with a CD that people like to bitch about having to do.
As far as it promoting fast-relogging or dual-logging, what can you do. Those people will exploit that anyway no matter what the system is.

[Badger]

I think to justify serious punishment for death you'd have to get rid of all the potentially stupid ways of dying. There are enough deaths in FOnline that you just couldn't have prevented.

I also think that if your solution can be bypassed by dual logging/proxies, there's a better solution out there. People will always find ways to sneak past it, and I think a fairer system or solution to any gameplay related problem is one that accepts that.

[HertogJan]

It wasn't meant as a reflection of what he said, but as a consequence of what would happen.

You can't avoid dying in this game, so you can't avoid being weakened.
You will die while leveling, it's basically inevitable.
Most deaths occur in encounters and during TC.
Being punished for that makes no sense.
Just like being punished for being killed by a suicide bomber or suicide burster makes no sense.
8 minutes weakened means people will relog which only costs 2 more minutes or use fast relog.
So fair players are punished while exploiters can just carry on with business as usual.

You want to punish people for doing bad things in a town?
Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.
Have guards shoot them when they enter in that period.
They die, respawn close to that town, but can't enter it.
Which means they're forced to take their business to another town.
This prevents the "1 action per 8 minute" thing and therefore doesn't stimulate (fast) relogging and doesn't punish people for dying in the wasteland.

[Badger]

Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.

I've just thought of something else to go alongside this.

How about a fine system - if you're caught in the NCR, you have to pay off a fine $100, otherwise your character is shot on sight in the NCR indefinitely. It doesn't help their victims, but if a thief wants to repeatedly operate in an area they have to pay to do so. I think that's a reasonable system.

[Solar]

I fail to see what the difference would be, other than to those dying whilst stealing.

Weakened is hardly harsh now.

[TheGreenHand]

You can't avoid dying in this game, so you can't avoid being weakened.
You will die while leveling, it's basically inevitable.
Most deaths occur in encounters and during TC.
Being punished for that makes no sense.
Just like being punished for being killed by a suicide bomber or suicide burster makes no sense.

I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, with the part about suicide bombers, but I think gameplay would benefit from making actual consequences for dying. It will make people think more about the creation of their players, as well as make you lose more while dying than one of your hundred 10mm SMG's you farmed off of NPCs and a handful of ammo. Combat skills definitely shouldn't be null during weakened, but something like a percentage decrease to them, whether a flat percentage drop or a percentage of your individual skill. Would you really be at top capacity to shoot a minigun immediately upon release from the hospital?
Yes deaths are inevitable, but the way they are now they hardly mean anything at all.

You want to punish people for doing bad things in a town?
Make them persona non grata for 30-60 minutes, depending on rep with that town, for that town.
Have guards shoot them when they enter in that period.
They die, respawn close to that town, but can't enter it.
Which means they're forced to take their business to another town.

This makes sense.

How about a fine system - if you're caught in the NCR, you have to pay off a fine $100, otherwise your character is shot on sight in the NCR indefinitely.

This doesn't. Can't come up with 100 caps one time and you can never enter a major city again? That's insane.

[Badger]

This doesn't. Can't come up with 100 caps one time and you can never enter a major city again? That's insane.

If you're not able to rustle up 100 caps after getting caught committing a crime, you're probably a lost cause anyway.

You get caught, you get shot. Chances are, you had nothing on you. To compensate for this, when you respawn, you will need to scrape together 100 (maybe more) and drop them off at say, Fort Seth, before the NCR accepts you back into their city.

I don't see what's so insane about it. The only issue I can see is making it clear to the thief that's what they need to do after they've been caught and shot in the face. Maybe just have the guards at every entrance shout it, and if they come any further into the city they get shot.

[HertogJan]

Except for dying you can also get weakened due to usage of the doc skill going wrong.
The penalty for that is that your injury or injuries didn't heal or that you're still weakened.
I don't think you should add an extra penalty for that.

I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, with the part about suicide bombers, but I think gameplay would benefit from making actual consequences for dying. It will make people think more about the creation of their players, as well as make you lose more while dying than one of your hundred 10mm SMG's you farmed off of NPCs and a handful of ammo. Combat skills definitely shouldn't be null during weakened, but something like a percentage decrease to them, whether a flat percentage drop or a percentage of your individual skill. Would you really be at top capacity to shoot a minigun immediately upon release from the hospital?
Yes deaths are inevitable, but the way they are now they hardly mean anything at all.

If being weakened effects skills, it should effect all skills.
You said in an earlier reply to go crafting or mining, but that too doesn't make any sense when weakened.
You're weakened, so how could you physically be able to mine?
You don't have the skill to use a gun, than you also lack the science or repair skill to craft.
To me it starts to sound more and more as some kind of ice hockey penalty where you have to sit out your penalty and watch the game from the side.
I'm against that.

I don't see what's so insane about it. The only issue I can see is making it clear to the thief that's what they need to do after they've been caught and shot in the face. Maybe just have the guards at every entrance shout it, and if they come any further into the city they get shot.

What's the point in this?
What should the thief compensate NCR for?