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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on January 20, 2011, 04:27:37 pm
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There's been a discussion how mercs and militia ruin pvp because they are so powerful. Think of it this way:
What's the difference between the following situations?
Average gang with BAs and avengers vs rich mofo gang with hundreds of mercs
Average gang with BAs and avengers vs nub gang with tier2 stuff
A minigunner in BA vs jacketman with combat shotgun
There is no difference. The richer side wins and that's that. That's where it all boils down to. A mutant army is no differend than avenger minigun in the end, both are achieved with cash. Grinding is actually the most powerful way to win in pvp, you can't stop your enemy from grinding, you can't cut his supply lines or steal his caps from the bank. Only way to defeat a grinder is to amass more stuff and that might be impossible if the enemy is more numerous and has more freetime.
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Mutants&Mercs are there for everybody and everyone has a chance to buy them. The people that spends more time ingame should have advantage in this kind of game.
I realy see no problem with that. The problem is the spawn killing and mutants teleporting away even in combat mode, but the concept of mutants itself is not problematic.
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Mutants&Mercs are there for everybody and everyone has a chance to buy them. The people that spends more time ingame should have advantage in this kind of game.
I realy see no problem with that. The problem is the spawn killing and mutants teleporting away even in combat mode, but the concept of mutants itself is not problematic.
The problem come from Proxy users to. You can have infinit merc with proxy.
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Mutants&Mercs are there for everybody and everyone has a chance to buy them. The people that spends more time ingame should have advantage in this kind of game.
How far are you ready to take it? If money equals power, then wouldn't it be okay if you could for example buy your enemy's base if you just had the money? Or wipe the server if you paid 100mil caps. You paid the caps, you deserve results right?
I realy see no problem with that. The problem is the spawn killing and mutants teleporting away even in combat mode, but the concept of mutants itself is not problematic.
Well why aren't everyone doing it if it's just a matter of caps? Honestly there is no difference between mutants and equipment, both are just power received by paying caps.
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I think there is a too big diffrence between militia and merc. Why a mercenarie have ~100hp and when he becomes a militia he wins 200-300hp and infiny ammo ! WTF ???!!!
Someone say " it's just because they are trained now !!!" and I think it's just bullshit that's merc are weaker than militia ?
So what's the solution ? up the mercenaries ? or nerf the militia ?
Delete the militia (or NERF A LOT them) and up a little humans mercenaries (like black HtH who can't run lol ?)
That's my opinion.
Sry for my english
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Militia should be deleted.
Peoples can still got good TC fights without militia (Of course they got those damn Mutants)
Militia can got sometimes very bad weapons like: Gauss Pistol and Avenger minigun and they got about 200-400HP.
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Wilks and Runboy you don't get it. What I'm saying is that people who are complaining about mutants and militia are just getting the taste of their own medicine. The medicine which they have been feeding to the less wealthy players while wearing top tier equipment.
I'm saying that's caps equal power and power from caps overpowers skill.
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So Avv you agree those millions of mutants and damn strong militia?
And that means this game never going to change more than for proxy users and mutants mayhem.
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I wonder when Developers will finally delete supermutants from TC. It should be done long time ago...
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Interest should be removed.
Now don't get me wrong, it helps loners ALOT, but it hurts them more than helps them because they cannot walk into a town without getting raped by 5 mutants, also the human merc prices are so inflated, no new player without help of huge gang (btw he would have to be very lucky) because for example....
rocketlaunchers are 27k caps (holy shit mutant price anyone???), lsw are 17k, minigun 18k caps...
Cheapest normal small gunis 6k, then 8k?, 10k?
Melee has prolly gotten the worst of it, white metal armor are inflated to 18-20k caps.
Only buyable mercs for newbies would be punk and black, and they're hardly worth the price.. 2-2.2k.
Inflation from tc bug + Interest in banks = current situation.
So question is really, get rid of mutants, or get rid of interest in banks?
Militia:
Militia is fine, gang easily wipes them out without much a problem, its when you get spammed from all sides with mercs and militia COMBINED! it becomes fugging impossible.
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I think amount in the bank should be limited, it would limit the interests. But I wonder if it has not been purposed, or even decided already...
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I think amount in the bank should be limited, it would limit the interests. But I wonder if it has not been purposed, or even decided already...
Yes but make it after wipe server.
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Yeah, no change until wipe, that's... tradition ;)
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I think that cutting intrest rates to 1% should be a good move.
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Wilks and Runboy you don't get it. What I'm saying is that people who are complaining about mutants and militia are just getting the taste of their own medicine. The medicine which they have been feeding to the less wealthy players while wearing top tier equipment.
I'm saying that's caps equal power and power from caps overpowers skill.
And who from these players "which" complaining actually tasted their medicine ?
I see nobody from them whining or anything else about mutants/militia
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Interest rates isn't the problem, its the balance. Its ridiculous to give more and more caps to a gang who controls a town and then let them multiply it even more by abusing the bank system. TC rewards could be in the form of either schematics or compnents to aid in teh development of arms and munitions. It keeps TC and PVP alive without the abuses of infinite buying power.
This topic has been discussed before and its retarded to fuck over the little guys simply because some folks out there have nothing better to do thanb play all fucking day or abuse a flawed tc reward system.
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Major problem of mercs is their artilery (spawn instakill ability), because one proxy merc leader could eliminate 4 or 5 real players, i will repear it again: 1 click of real player could eliminate 4 or 5 also real players. This has nothing to do with fair play and with game balance or with challenging genius tactic of enemy. Nobody use mercs in the middle of map, it is only the artilery or stopper at spawn points. Using mercs in the middle of cities needs full atention and they are there less powerfull.
I dont believe that any aproach based on economy changes would affect imba of mercs. If you set harder condition to get those mercs (bigger value), only most powerfull gang would use them. Most powerfull in this game means most numerous gang. If you set conditions too low, it is the spam of supermutants like now.
Simple equations:
less powerfull gang = less mercs X more powerfull gang = more mercs
less cheating gang (no proxy, dual logs) = less benefit from mercs X more cheating gang = bigger benefit
Question n.1
Do mercs raising the gamebalance of PvP or they dont?
Question n.2
Would the PvP be less entertaining without mercs or not?
Q. n.3
Is there any real ingame possibility to eliminate mercs proxy abusing or not?
Militia problem.
Dont you think, that existence of militia at north cities is the reason why they are so abandon? First few eras, there were PKs everywere, mostly in northern cities, but there was also always normal players.
Most players identify militia like potential problem, because there is always chance that one marking hit would kill you, even if you have best stuff and marker has only bb gun. It does not matter, who actualy controls the city, every player got own bad experience with militia (marking players) and this is fact that they generaly dont visit northern cities, because players "learn" that those places are death zones.
The fact, that one gang or alliance or roleplayproject could use this ability to roleplay is only theoretical. Try to review this ability. Does this sometimes work, and if yes, what were conditions (how many players were on server, which era, how many players were online,..). I know that this could sound absurd, but too restrictive policy, like safe zones, militia, could result in opposite effect that they were design for. PKs are abusing the rules in safe cities, militia dont helps to guard roleplay city, but it is constant reason to attack this city. Do you remember first Modoc militia? This project stoped after implementing of militia.
On other way, i admit that changes back would not always return the same playability. I.e. Namecolourizing. There was a massive apeal against this, in hope that this would restore old small gangs PvP actions, but it fails, like i presumed, because alliances evolved into something more than basic colour taging, something like online game virtual friendship and this can not be eliminated by erasing of NC.
The same fact could be with eliminating of militia at northern cities. Players learned to not to visit those places, so why they will start to visiting that places again.. only because there is not exist any instakill probability?
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blah-blah-blah... make militia useless
Do you feel a pain between your left and right buttock? Yeah... that called butthurt. You've just joined the club of offended noobs.
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Do you feel a pain between your left and right buttock? Yeah... that called butthurt. You've just joined the club of offended noobs.
Actually, you are the one doing an useless flame/trollpost.
At no point avv whined in here, rather talking about the bigger picture, which you apparently are unable to comprehend, neither someone is "butthurt". It was a normal discussion until you dropped in with this shit.
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Actually, you are the one doing an useless flame/trollpost.
At no point avv whined in here, rather talking about the bigger picture, which you apparently are unable to comprehend, neither someone is "butthurt". It was a normal discussion until you dropped in with this shit.
I have to disagree with that. What I did, is a post that shown a true nature of this topic. Sometimes it's necessary to do something like that to stop a discussion that leads nowhere.
And yes, I've read this topic before replying and found there a lot of whining which is very annoying.
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Whining ? Tell me how you can fight with someone in town full of militia ? Its morning, you have 3 players and you will see 5 enemies. You think you can fight them ? Of course that no.
Or, you are running somewere near exit grid and you just get 5 rocket and insta death. And what a surprise ? You couldnt defend yourself.
Whining ? Please
You know answers, dont try something like "Stop fighting in towns where is militia or dont be somewhere near exit grids"
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I have to disagree with that. What I did, is a post that shown a true nature of this topic. Sometimes it's necessary to do something like that to stop a discussion that leads nowhere.
And yes, I've read this topic before replying and found there a lot of whining which is very annoying.
Apparently you fail to conceive the process of beta testing and the difference between "whining" and feedback/discussions. Doesn't surprise me though, seeing the nature of some of your other posts. Mayhaps you shouldn't write in this thread anymore.
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Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.
When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.
But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.
But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).
... and if people use multilogs to spam mercs... Do you realy think mercs are the problem? C'mon...
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This isn't just about militia & mutants. It's about how grinding is the basis of power in pvp.
And who from these players "which" complaining actually tasted their medicine ?
Those who couldn't cope with mutants and militia. Now the enemy has superior equipment and giving them hard time.
That's what I'd call taste of one's own medicine.
Major problem of mercs is their artilery (spawn instakill ability), because one proxy merc leader could eliminate 4 or 5 real players, i will repear it again: 1 click of real player could eliminate 4 or 5 also real players. This has nothing to do with fair play and with game balance or with challenging genius tactic of enemy. Nobody use mercs in the middle of map, it is only the artilery or stopper at spawn points. Using mercs in the middle of cities needs full atention and they are there less powerfull.
It is fair in terms of current game settings. The one who bought the mutants paid caps, so he received power. In same way when you buy BA with caps, you receive power. If the mutants are too powerful for their current price, the logical solution would be to raise the price but that wouldn't help since all you need is time to grind.
I dont believe that any aproach based on economy changes would affect imba of mercs. If you set harder condition to get those mercs (bigger value), only most powerfull gang would use them. Most powerfull in this game means most numerous gang. If you set conditions too low, it is the spam of supermutants like now.
This is true.
Do mercs raising the gamebalance of PvP or they dont?
You can't put it that way. Only thing that matters here is how much time/people you got to get caps.
Would the PvP be less entertaining without mercs or not?
Leader builds need their place too.
Is there any real ingame possibility to eliminate mercs proxy abusing or not?
Yes. It's purely a matter of strategic options available in pvp. Add more options where players can invest their skills, instead of caps and there should be results. Combat is too dependent on your equipment and less dependent on how good you play. If there was a chance for players to hone their skills, they would win even much wealthier opponents.
Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.
When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.
But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.
But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).
The idea is the worst thing. You grind = you get to decide what happens to another player. Would you like it if some day you logged in and found your character deleted because someone paid 10million caps? He paid the caps, he deserves results right? The mutants are similar I win button as minigun is against bluesuit.
You can't balance pvp based on people's freetime.
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Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.
When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.
But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.
But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).
... and if people use multilogs to spam mercs... Do you realy think mercs are the problem? C'mon...
You seriously missing the fact that there is a very difference between using mercs (supermutants) regulary and using them as artilery. Supermutants itself does not cause of imbalance of PvP, but the fact that you can kill even 5 players by one click and there is not any effective defence agaisnt this.
So you collect your friends to evening PvP, you take your best stuff, you prepare for battle, prepare tactics, you enter the city and you die, because one polish boy use his second comp or proxy so he attack you and he does not even needs to focus at that mutant leader. Its suicide of that mutants, without any negative impact (negative karma for NPCs traders,.. ).
So again, one small proxy cheater destory fun of 5 real human players in five seconds after one click (because he has already prepared his muties over that locaiton he wants to enter). And again, during PvP, teams uses this tactic not once, but twice or even more.
And beause you need proxy to do this tactic (because noone sane will stay only over the map and wait for mates instruction, he wants to fight too), cheating teams are in huge advantage againt them who does not cheat.
This is simple stetament, prooved by many photos, vides, testaments of PvP players and nobody cares.
Problem is, that this makes maps like Redding unplayable, because if enemy holds right bottom corner and they have muties over the South and Downtown entrances, WHOLE area around main street and south east of map is death trap. This does not have anything to do with good gameplay.
And solution? Temporary is simple.. Disable NPC merc traders... Slavers would still enslave their chars and this would help gamebalance again.
Devs, GM, one suggestion: try to join few TC PvP actions and test how funny is to challenge or die cause of mutans (mercs). It is absurd, because you did a great job to balance PvP this era, with one exception...
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Whining ? Tell me how you can fight with someone in town full of militia ? Its morning, you have 3 players and you will see 5 enemies. You think you can fight them ? Of course that no.
Or, you are running somewere near exit grid and you just get 5 rocket and insta death. And what a surprise ? You couldnt defend yourself.
Whining ? Please
You know answers, dont try something like "Stop fighting in towns where is militia or dont be somewhere near exit grids"
This is a matter of tactics - how to fight in a city full of militia and enemies simultaneously. Somehow our team manage to succeed in that, and doesn't complain to anyone on forums how difficult it was, while you do.
Do you really want to just come to the city and simply take control over it? Try to imagine a real city with citizens and people who are protecting it. If their morality is high - they will be protecting it well until they can.
What we could do with that? I have an answer. Town Control system should be upgraded with "Morality" of guards (Militia):
you can read more about that suggestion here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=12904.0)
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If u dont want to die because of our mercs buy yours mercs. We play the same game. Everyone got access to the same things so whats the problem? When WWP had Redding u had militia. We killed them and than killed u. It wasn't easy and he had to make a brainstorm to create a tactic. When we have Redding defended by militia u started to open new threads, another and another, everywhere and everywhere. I dont remember whining Chosen Soldiers, i dont remember whining Red Dots and i dont remember whining Rogues. Every time u got a problem with something u WHINE. STOP doing this or just stop calling us KIDS. Who is kid here? Guys FFS. CHILLOUT.
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This is a matter of tactics
It's a matter of how much people are in your gang, how much freetime you got and how much equipment (armor, guns, ammo, mercs) you have. Only when these factors are equal between two gangs, actual tactics start to matter.
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No caps in Town Control Locker, there should be loot, like it was few wipes ago.
When someone die near Town or inside it, his loot will spawn i locker.
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Lordus-> so you say cheaters beat non-cheaters, so devs need to change a part of the game that would work if there are no cheaters? And I'm missing a point?!
avv-> fo isn't a game of rock, paper, scisors where one beats another. It's not chest where the best player wins. It's like poker where you bet with your own money, you can have a good hand but if you don't have the money you've lost.
Fo would be a game of skill only if all had the same level, teams would be equal and all weapons, armor, ammo, drugs for free. Like in Quake.
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If u dont want to die because of our mercs buy yours mercs. We play the same game. Everyone got access to the same things so whats the problem? When WWP had Redding u had militia. We killed them and than killed u. It wasn't easy and he had to make a brainstorm to create a tactic. When we have Redding defended by militia u started to open new threads, another and another, everywhere and everywhere. I dont remember whining Chosen Soldiers, i dont remember whining Red Dots and i dont remember whining Rogues. Every time u got a problem with something u WHINE. STOP doing this or just stop calling us KIDS. Who is kid here? Guys FFS. CHILLOUT.
We do not have 15 players ready at eleven o clock, we dont put gauss and RL mercs in the militia, we dont use proxies to win.... you didnt make tactic at all, you just waited us to be working or sleeping to attack. Come on, find another argument.
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It's a matter of how much people are in your gang, how much freetime you got and how much equipment (armor, guns, ammo, mercs) you have. Only when these factors are equal between two gangs, actual tactics start to matter.
First - you didn't read my post completely
Second - tactics ALWAYS does matter, ESPECIALLY when both sides have a different power. Remember any real special forces unit. They ALWAYS fight in non-equal conditions. They have a few people, while enemy usually have much more.
We do not have 15 players ready at eleven o clock, we dont put gauss and RL mercs in the militia, we dont use proxies to win.... you didnt make tactic at all, you just waited us to be working or sleeping to attack. Find another argument.
(http://www.sonofthesouth.net/uncle-sam/images/stop-whining.jpg)
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we dont put gauss and RL mercs in the militia,
You are just to lazy, as you can see we puting Comabt slaves in milita, make a slaver, craft some robes, catch some Slaves, then kill some muties under NCR, take RL from them, give this RL to Combat slaves, put them in milita.
Gauss Milita = You buying normal milita, if he have spear or other crap weapon, you have to kill him, then you doing the same till you get what you want.
Stop crying, and start working
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We do not have 15 players ready at eleven o clock, we dont put gauss and RL mercs in the militia, we dont use proxies to win.... you didnt make tactic at all, you just waited us to be working or sleeping to attack. Come on, find another argument.
Gauss mercs? Where i can buy em? U do not use proxies? Why should i believe u? We didnt make tactic at all? Man... u forgot monday evening/night? U had fail action in broken hills and this is why u went to sleep:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=12810.0
Since that action u cant recapture Redding and BH.
PS. I think that u dont have caps for better militia and mercs and this is the reason why u are angry. What does it means? That u are not well organised. And just like DocAN said ...start working!
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avv-> fo isn't a game of rock, paper, scisors where one beats another. It's not chest where the best player wins. It's like poker where you bet with your own money, you can have a good hand but if you don't have the money you've lost.
Is this a quote from developer?
If fonline is like poker, how do you explain that some players do significantly better in hinkley than others?
Or some gangs manage to beat others with good teamwork? Sounds like skill to me.
Fo would be a game of skill only if all had the same level, teams would be equal and all weapons, armor, ammo, drugs for free. Like in Quake.
Sure, but that's not where to aim. How to turn fonline into game of skill: have more functions available in combat. Right now we got run and shoot as default. Good micromanagement skills aren't just good enough to defeat a better armed enemy.
tactics ALWAYS does matter, ESPECIALLY when both sides have a different power. Remember any real special forces unit. They ALWAYS fight in non-equal conditions. They have a few people, while enemy usually have much more.
You're free to try beat a brotherhood armored minigunner while you're wearing jacket and flamer. I'd like to know what tactics are going to use to defeat him.
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Manero your last reply was to me ? If yes so i didnt whine anywhere about thing that you kicked TTLA and CS in Redding.
I just simple responded to this topic that militia is impossible to kill when you have some 6 players, and these mutant insta kills is just stupid thing.
It doesnt matter how many caps they cost, or that i can buy them too. Its not different. If i will spawn them, my enemie will just disappear.
And stop talking with me that i am someone from TTLA or CS or whiner. Its just my opinion about current situation
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U could ask me by PM. No Holo it was not reply to you. I like u and u are not whinner. My post was just under your.
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You're free to try beat a brotherhood armored minigunner while you're wearing jacket and flamer. I'd like to know what tactics are going to use to defeat him.
This way you said it's very hard, almost impossible to win with any tactics 1 vs 1, but in a different case tactics does matters.
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This way you said it's very hard, almost impossible to win with any tactics 1 vs 1, but in a different case tactics does matters.
That's the exact point why I started this thread. Better equipment has significant role in combat. I don't deny that teamwork and group management aren't required but they can be simply overpowered with great ammounts of better gear and freetime.
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Mercs problem:
There is not any defence against mercs like muties, if they are used like ARTILERY. So what is the point of all game, preparing stuff, making tactics, of one polish proxy cheater could ruin entertaiment in few seconds. Why there is a balance across major combat skills, when this does not matter when you challenge artilery?
What is realistic on fact that you die because some 5ns latency firepower spawn few hexes near you? And comparsion with player CA and avenger is nonsene. If you spawn with your main avatar, you risk immediate death and than 2-5 minutes regroup (IF YOU DONT CHEAT). You dont risk ANYTHING with supermutants leaders, YOU DONT NEED TO CONTROL THEM, you can HARVEST THEM FOR FREE, you RUIN REAL PLAYERS PVP SESSION.
No, this mercs ARTILERY is absurd.
X
I dont have anything about merc leaders.. But if you have to use them like your primary avatar in the cities.
This is PVP, not PVE. Use mercs if you want, but USE them! CONTROL them!
I am very calm, because i already left this server and i will return when PvP will have sense for players, who wants to challenge another real players, not game mechanics abusers..
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What is realistic on fact that you die because some 5ns latency firepower spawn few hexes near you? And comparsion with player CA and avenger is nonsene. If you spawn with your main avatar, you risk immediate death and than 2-5 minutes regroup (IF YOU DONT CHEAT). You dont risk ANYTHING with supermutants leaders, YOU DONT NEED TO CONTROL THEM, you can HARVEST THEM FOR FREE, you RUIN REAL PLAYERS PVP SESSION.
5 muties also cost more than CA and avenger, so obviously CAvenger risks more. But honestly, can't you see it: it doesn't matter how the mutants act or what do they do to pvp. What matters is that the leader bought the mutants with caps because he had enough caps. He bought power. He uses this power to bring down enemies. This is how pvp works in most cases.
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I wouldn't say artillery, because in real life, artillery can't shoot from point blank range, soldiers don't want to commit suicide.
These mutants are more like berserkers troops.
Maybe it should be changed, make them "smarter" (don't know if it's possible), and make them change their weapon when they are at close range.
No more massive spawn at exit grid.
This way, PvP with this kind of mercs would stay interesting without being overpowered.
There still is the "instant-kill at spawn" problem, though.
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5 muties also cost more than CA and avenger, so obviously CAvenger risks more. But honestly, can't you see it: it doesn't matter how the mutants act or what do they do to pvp. What matters is that the leader bought the mutants with caps because he had enough caps. He bought power. He uses this power to bring down enemies. This is how pvp works in most cases.
Problem is, that BALANCED game should have countermeasure against every possible threat. If you have biggunners on plains, use snipers. If you have snipers in streets, use biggunners. If you have snipers x snipers at planes, better tactic and manouvering or number win. If you have big gun x big gun in streets, better tactic, manouvering, numbers win.
If you have players on main street in Redding, you are instakilled without any possible chance to defend. Killed by polish boy with proxy and mutant leaders. Whats point od this kind of PvP. I want challenge real players skill, not stupid game mechanic abusers.
Spawnkill using ARTILERY is mechanics abusing.
Try to implement this in games like WoW (i did not played it ever) or TF2, or whatever and look at reactions. Seriously, i have own selfrespect to not be a toy or puppet for polish teen game mechanics abusers. Until this will be fixed, i dont see any point to play PvP and in fact to do one reasonable thing for old Fonline player.
SOLUTIONS:
temporary invulnerability (like in second era), negative karma for every your merc you lost (but still lvl1 leadership abusing), temporary freeze of mercs entering cities (so defenders could DEFEND),....
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Problem is, that BALANCED game should have countermeasure against every possible threat.
In the end this game is balanced on people's freetime. More time = more stuff. More stuff = more power. If your enemy has lots of time, you defeat it by having even more time.
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I exacly know what packs of mutants can do during TC. Most of maps got some points where as team who take city got great defence points which are just impossible to defeat. Another team who want to attack them without mercs can only defeat or just back to map. As Lordus said for example in Redding. It would be only PvP fights if all gangs wont use mercs or superms will be deleted from TC. But then it will be problems like some X gang when lost with other Ygang will try to make alliance and simply swarmed.
PS. Yes last battles are like starcraft game... i think it not problem for other team to buy 40super mutants too but do all really want fights like this ?
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Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies. The thing is, that mercs are not valuable to anyone, because everyone has tons of caps. The way I see how to improve it, is by setting constant very low interest rate ( 0.5% ? ) and removing caps from TC chests - replacing them with ammo, drugs, armors, weapons as was already suggested countless times.
Recent events showed me, that removing militia would be probably the best. Maybe leaving one city with militia for RP projects.
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Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies.
So to counter more numerous enemies, you just grind harder to afford muties. Like I said, time = power. What if those more numerous enemies start grinding even harder, how are you going to counter that?
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Ok I should reformulate it, its one of the ways how to counter more numerous enemies.
Its up to you how you will use caps - you can buy yourself a nice combat armor and a gun or a mutant. But loss of mutant will be the same as losing that armor and gun - and nobody likes that. Now, with infinite caps, no one cares about them, still weapons and armors have a minor value.
Avv you cant expect that a guy that plays only at weekends for several hours can be a match to nolifer. Its a MMORPG, not some instant FPS action. Besides FPS players have to grind too in a way, you wont be a pro by playing once in a year.
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Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies. The thing is, that mercs are not valuable to anyone, because everyone has tons of caps. The way I see how to improve it, is by setting constant very low interest rate ( 0.5% ? ) and removing caps from TC chests - replacing them with ammo, drugs, armors, weapons as was already suggested countless times.
Recent events showed me, that removing militia would be probably the best. Maybe leaving one city with militia for RP projects.
Problem is, that mercs is the only way how to counter more numerous enemies, but also the way, how more numerous enemies are raising their power. You cannot divide those two functions, they are here and because of this, the first one (countermeasure) is weakened by second (raising power of powerful gang). More powerfull gang with more proxies wil use more mercs to kill more enemies, there is not any economical, game mechanic reason to not using power.
Again, there is not any chance to balance caps economy in 2238 using current mechanics. Every era there was any abuse, bug or feature that disbalanced economy. But even if there would not exist any bugs, more numerous gangs will have acces to more caps so they will be able to buy more muties and they will be more powerfull.
It is simple math, try to imagine it in graph.
And again, i dont have anything against merc leaders in cities, towns, if they have to control them and they cant use their artillery ability. So just freeze them for random time (15-30) seconds, so you would need clear and secured area (secured by real players, for christ), so no more instaspawn and instakills into the enemy.
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Avv you cant expect that a guy that plays only at weekends for several hours can be a match to nolifer. Its a MMORPG, not some instant FPS action. Besides FPS players have to grind too in a way, you wont be a pro by playing once in a year.
I'm not expecting that. But in our case it just goes over the edge when it comes to grind power vs skill power.
Hinkley offers pretty decent "grab a gun and go" action and what I've heard about domination, it won't require much grind either.
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Lordus, although i agree with much of what you say you point at Polish players for this "abuse". When it is well-known fact that russian players use mutant swarm the most, not that it makes a difference(because everyone does it to a degree), just don't be racist like that because there is no point your just pointin the finger trying to build up hate.
And again, i dont have anything against merc leaders in cities, towns, if they have to control them and they cant use their artillery ability. So just freeze them for random time (15-30) seconds, so you would need clear and secured area (secured by real players, for christ), so no more instaspawn and instakills into the enemy.
15-30 seconds...? What the hell? You and your entire squad will be dead in 5 seconds if you and them don't react quickly!!
Imagine a merc leader walking into a town, with his little band of mercs, (doesn't have to be muties) and some small team of players decides, "hey this guy just spawned in town with mercs, lets go in and kill him and rape his mercs since they can't do shit."
Such a freeze is not the way to go, though I'll admit I cannot think of another way, if a freeze is implemented it should only be 2-3 seconds.
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Lordus, although i agree with much of what you say you point at Polish players for this "abuse". When it is well-known fact that russian players use mutant swarm the most, not that it makes a difference(because everyone does it to a degree), just don't be racist like that because there is no point your just pointin the finger trying to build up hate.
Sorry. I apologize to every russian and other nation abusers i forgot to name :)
My point is that player who control merc leader should fight in city/location itself, he should not fight 1 second before he enters the location (= worldmap click 1 second before his artilery spawn at spawn point). He should control his mercs, target their victims, ... .
Current system reducing the merc leadership to 1 click instakill artilery. It is opposite of aproach that PLAYER skills is greater than passive atributes and abilities, multiplied by abusing of simplified existence/construction of cities and whole world wasteland (entering from worldmap into cities).
If mercs would stay frozen for some period, merc leader would need to 1) locate mercs in city before fight itself or 2) support them by real players. This fact would eliminate spawn instakills (because of freeze), it would create merc leaders (chars that could do in 1 fire cumulative average damage cca 350-500 damage, multiplied by area damages by other rockets) as a supportive combat chars, not ultimate spawn killers that are deciding about the winner side. Also one PvP player would chalenge again another PvP player (merc. leader), not his proxy alt (his left hand mouse click) like now.
Another thing i dont understand:
Mercs are mercenaries, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary) , so they are not slaves, they care about their lives. But every merc leader consumes muties and other mercs like they are basic artilery shell. So i suggest to make kind of "mercs" karma. If you loose your merck, you will lose karma, so you are unable to buy another one... But this aproach needs more coding, testing, it is abusable (lvl 1 leaders, you need only high charisma, thats all), so most effective is freeze.
Freeze 2-3 seconds are not enough. Muties can RL have 40 hex distance.. That is not enough. I have different view. Muties are strong, they have good firepower. In real world, weapons with high firepower are also often very vulnerable, especially in cities (even Armors, Tanks).
So if you want to use muties, you need to do more, check area, clear it first, than enter, they are slow (it is ok, they have big firepower), you need to set them order, where to stay, locate them, you need to control them, before battle, during battle.. Active aproach, not passive 1 click.
I told everything about this, so i dont need to write more. It is devs project, if they want very unbalancing element implement into the game, they dont need to do, they already have it.
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Current system reducing the merc leadership to 1 click instakill artilery. It is opposite of aproach that PLAYER skills is greater than passive atributes and abilities, multiplied by abusing of simplified existence/construction of cities and whole world wasteland (entering from worldmap into cities).
Player skills? An instakill mutant artillery killing a group of 3rd tier stuff is no differend than someone shooting a lowlevel with minigun. Throw in the caps, get results. 5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.
You can try to find a way to "balance" the issue by nerfing mutants but from my point of view the situation IS balanced because the caps were paid. You want to fix something try to fix the situation, which is caps = power. This means finding a solution that reaches down to every level of wealth, not just muties and militia.
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Can someone develop some special MINIGUN for "avv" it will shoot with "caps" coz they are most powerfull. :D
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5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.
But enrol 5 good PvP players is harder than buy 5 muties.
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But enrol 5 good PvP players is harder than buy 5 muties.
What's your point?
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Can someone develop some special MINIGUN for "avv" it will shoot with "caps" coz they are most powerfull. :D
Hah.. don't make me laugh :D
Money is just thing that make peoples jealous and angry (Maybe that kind powerful..?)
But still.. skill and experience show more power than any amount of money.
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What's your point?
So 5 muties shouldn’t be as deadly as 5 well armed players. Also don’t forget that AI is worse than sharp human mind.
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Player skills? An instakill mutant artillery killing a group of 3rd tier stuff is no differend than someone shooting a lowlevel with minigun.
There are differencies:
1) PK with avenger is still player controled char, 5 muties in spawn is proxy click of player, who has already logged in his own basic pvp char
2) you have chance to survive one or two burst by avenger, if you run. if attacker spawn at spawn point near you, he risks his own primary character, not his proxy alt, so even spawn kill by teleporting player attacker is not equal to proxy artilery
Throw in the caps, get results. 5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.
Caps price is obsolete, in my suggestion i dont use it (or only in comparsion with another stuff), but general currency in all online game activites is: "TIME" you need to spend to get adequate level, weapons, armors,.. .
If you want to use PvP build, you need to level up (21lvl) your PvP main battle character, you need to spend 4-20 hours by exping (depends on type of char, your knowledge about experience, your ammo, weapons, armors, drugs supply, your team background). After this, you get character, that has power to challenge enemy character, but still you need to spend another time to get ammo, stuff, armors to suply your pvp char in PvP. We can call it as one PvP unit. (1 PvPUN).
If you want to use your merc leader, you dont need to lvl up that unit, you need to collect money (0 minutes) buy mercs (5 minutes), transport them (1 minute), click in right moment (1 second) to kill 4-5 players (4-5 PvPUN).
Now compare time you need to kill one enemy using your main battle char and using your mercs as an artilery. This is totaly imba.
You can try to find a way to "balance" the issue by nerfing mutants but from my point of view the situation IS balanced because the caps were paid. You want to fix something try to fix the situation, which is caps = power. This means finding a solution that reaches down to every level of wealth, not just muties and militia.
Caps inflation X static price of almost everything would be always problem.. In project, that is now developing, i suggested economy model, taht caps would be very rare, so this could be a way. But it is not possible to implement here.
nerfing mutants
I DONT WANT NERF MUTANTS (mercs). Their power, price everything should stay as it is. Only thing i want, is to eliminate abusing of concept of entering to the cities. Current state is that players and mercs are "teleporting" into the city, without any warning, any latency. Few eras before, there was temporary invulnerability.. it had disadvantages. After erasing that feature, players were very careful, because every enter to location could kill them. But you dont need to be carefull, if you enter to city with proxy alt, = artilery, you can reload in few minutes at full strenght without any negative impact and buy this recharge by infinite amount of caps..
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So 5 muties shouldn’t be as deadly as 5 well armed players. Also don’t forget that AI is worse than sharp human mind.
Well if the players are so good, they should use their skills.
1) PK with avenger is still player controled char, 5 muties in spawn is proxy click of player, who has already logged in his own basic pvp char
2) you have chance to survive one or two burst by avenger, if you run. if attacker spawn at spawn point near you, he risks his own primary character, not his proxy alt, so even spawn kill by teleporting player attacker is not equal to proxy artilery
But the mutant spawner sacrifices his mutants. Life has no value in fonline so it doesn't matter if someone dies, only the tools have a price.
Caps price is obsolete, in my suggestion i dont use it (or only in comparsion with another stuff), but general currency in all online game activites is: "TIME" you need to spend to get adequate level, weapons, armors,.. .
Time pretty much equals caps. But it equals many other things aswell.
If you want to use PvP build, you need to level up (21lvl) your PvP main battle character, you need to spend 4-20 hours by exping (depends on type of char, your knowledge about experience, your ammo, weapons, armors, drugs supply, your team background). After this, you get character, that has power to challenge enemy character, but still you need to spend another time to get ammo, stuff, armors to suply your pvp char in PvP. We can call it as one PvP unit. (1 PvPUN).
Pretty good summary.
If you want to use your merc leader, you dont need to lvl up that unit, you need to collect money (0 minutes) buy mercs (5 minutes), transport them (1 minute), click in right moment (1 second) to kill 4-5 players (4-5 PvPUN).
Well I question whether it's okay to even spend that pvpunit in first place. Why is it that everyone has to prepare for hours before they get to fight if they plan to be succesful? Too much preparing and time spent OUTSIDE the actual pvp event. In my opinion the game would be much funnier and action packed if you could just grab a gun and go fighting. Your personal skills would then decide the outcome, economy would follow behind. An example would be any querilla fighter with simple gear. A single ak47 is enough to cause big material and personnel losses to a superior enemy if the insurgent knows what to do.
Now compare time you need to kill one enemy using your main battle char and using your mercs as an artilery. This is totaly imba.
Then just raise the price, or make a leader profesion that requires high level and speech skill. Then it would take equal ammount of pvpunits to get a leader. This would be simple, but worse fix.
I DONT WANT NERF MUTANTS (mercs). Their power, price everything should stay as it is. Only thing i want, is to eliminate abusing of concept of entering to the cities.
You could blame our combat system fom that.
You start with full aps, you turn instantly, you launch your weapons instantly. You have 95% accuracy in most cases, you can't reduce enemy's accuracy with your actions. Enemy has very good sight in all directions. This all gets multiplied by mercs' instant reactions. Too many instant and passive factors around.
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Well if the players are so good, they should use their skills.
And they use it. It's even possible to win solo fight against 5 muties. But in your opinion one player = one mutant.
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And they use it. It's even possible to win solo fight against 5 muties. But in your opinion one player = one mutant.
So if players can micro mutants alone, what's the problem? Instant deployment and instant shooting? Sounds more like problem in combat mechanics overall.
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So if players can micro mutants alone, what's the problem? Instant deployment and instant shooting? Sounds more like problem in combat mechanics overall.
It's a problem of instant mercenary reaction... Just add 2 sec delay before shooting, and impossibility for mercs to get out of a town map while in combat.
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...and impossibility for mercs to get out of a town map while in combat.
I think it would solve the problem, and maybe 1sec delay.
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I think it would solve the problem, and maybe 1sec delay.
Yeah, 1 sec is ok, so it should be like that.
fixed :) Thx to Sarakin.
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Yeah, 100 msec = 1 sec is a normal ping for a regular player so it should be like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millisecond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millisecond) ;)
Im for what Crazy suggested
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And they use it. It's even possible to win solo fight against 5 muties. But in your opinion one player = one mutant.
You dont understand what he mean.
It depends on situation...
Of course you can camp in building alone and wait for them with avenger and kill one by one but its hard when you fight with enemy and enemy merc comander spawning on ur ass and there is nothing about skills or merc is robo brain and player is human ...
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So use your brain and try to avoid exit grid. Merc and muties sacks inside town.
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...and impossibility for mercs to get out of a town map while in combat.
After i saw this suggestion and others who agree I now know for a certainty that most people here complaining have never ever ever ava nuva used a leader build before. Shame on you.
Reasoning: Having followers and travelling across the map, when your forced into encounters, 90% of the time your running out, and your followers suffer damage from whatever hostile npcs were in that encounter, (Combat timer) so if this would be implemented, NO ONE, (and i mean no one) would ever use leader builds, ever, again.
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It could only apply to towns.
The one second delay also would be a nice touch.
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It could only apply to towns.
Same situation to a degree, if anyone of you or your mercs get hit by someone or something, all your followers will instantly attack that threat, giving people a chance to grief leaders by forcing combat timer on all mercs continuosly.
Sure, you could get out, but just because some prick decides to shoot one of your followers your mercs would already be dead because none of them could escape. (gives people time to have their guys rush you if your on other side of map or on worldmap) which wouldn't be the case with a group of 5 players because just because one is shot the others could escape.
Stop all actions would not be an effective enough come-back at this, because as we all know follower reactions are instant, so a player could not possibly tell his followers to not shoot so they dont get bumrushed from not being able to run away, its almost like... turning the tables 360 degrees, your not fixing the problem your only making putting it down on someone else.
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I've already played a leader (not much but still), and it's why I've said "town maps". And I really think it's part of solution, with more reaction time.
giving people a chance to grief leaders by forcing combat timer on all mercs continuosly.
Oh, and when people don't want a player to leave, they grief by keep shooting him and forcing his combat timer continuosly!
...
No, really, why the hell mercs could get out while in combat when players can't? It's only lead to abuse, cause you can enter and get out immediately, all your mercs shot, made kills, and even if they have been shot they survive, get out, and you can peacefully heal them on WM, before striking again.
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5 players, one gets shot, would the other four players shoot IMMEDIATELY after that one player is shot, even if there is 20 people also, and exit grid is close by? No... they would run like hell.
as a leader, you dont have that choice to leave the poor bastard who got shot behind, all your followers would instantly attack and they're all dead just like that. Yeah, I said "dead just like that", but like i also said, your not fixing the problem with that, your only turning the tables on someone else with similar method, which will only lead to similar discussions, except leader builds will be suffering.
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1) 1 second reaction delay is too low. 1 second is in most cases time that you even notice that somebody spawn few hexes near you.. and until you choose the adequate reaction (run, attack, ..) you are almost death.
2) I think that delay should be equal to time, that your build needs to full reload APs. it is cca 5 seconds. So you would have time to run away or to eliminate enemy.
3) Again, its purpose is to eliminate abuse of instakill ability of mercs spawned in the middle of enemy group at spawn points. Players deserves possibility to react (defense, run away). We dont use fast relogs, every death by this mutants means game over. In opposite to merc leaders, that use supermutants as an artilery.
4) But this would not solve situation, where enemies would spawn i.e. 10 mercs at one time, or few seconds after.. You would not have a time or would not have a knowledge of which merc was spawned first, so it would cause the same mess like now, but cost of mutants would be little higher. So again, NO ACTIVE APROACH, again passive releasing and forget like now.
5) So set the game mechanis to level, that YOU HAVE TO CARE about your mercs, mutants, if you want to fully maximize their combat ability. Check area first (by sneakers,...). Eliminate basic threat and after this, deploy your mutants. Or prepare your muties to battleground before fight. No insta teleports with deadly ability into the group of enemies. This have nothing to do with gamebalance.
6) Set the game mechanics, that mercs would have to fight IN CITIES, NOT IN SPAWN ZONES only.
Only our aversion to fast and dual logging does not lead to situation, where the combat is only about artilering enemy artilery...
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I think Michael is right.
Leader build will be not playable anymore.
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So use your brain and try to avoid exit grid. Merc and muties sacks inside town.
Use your brain and stop post such stupid posts. How some gang can defend their city if enemy start timer for example camp with 5players in broken hills behind the gate and got support of 20 mutants from main entrance and other team from wm? The only possible way is to let enemy take your city and then retake it back but its bad too.
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Other nerfing possibilities.
1 disallow dual logs for good, or make it simpler to use. So, the dual log cheaters wouldn't have the upper hand. No one or everyone could use it. Not just hackers or multi-computers guys.
2 Put larger differences between lvl 1 leader and lvl 21 leader. (more mercenaries, shared perks, level caps to buy them, wathever)
3 Make a delay in which the mercenaries can't either shoot or been shot. (so, theire freezing won't hurt them)
4 Don't allow supermutants (and brahmins) to enter cars. It is unrealistic, and too much unbalanced to make them move on wm so quickly
5 Make your mercenaries level up, before using them in Town Control. (so, they wouldn't be so strong, just after been bought)
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1 disallow dual logs for good, or make it simpler to use. So, the dual log cheaters wouldn't have the upper hand. No one or everyone could use it. Not just hackers or multi-computers guys.
Even if you disallow dual logs, there'd be a guy waiting for an order to spawn muties.
2 Put larger differences between lvl 1 leader and lvl 21 leader. (more mercenaries, shared perks, level caps to buy them, wathever
This would be a possible solution, but it has to be made sure that playing as leader is also enjoyable so that it's not going to be just a mutant APC-alt. In addition lvling takes only time and everyone has time, unlike skill.
3 Make a delay in which the mercenaries can't either shoot or been shot. (so, theire freezing won't hurt them)
This sounds viable.
4 Don't allow supermutants (and brahmins) to enter cars. It is unrealistic, and too much unbalanced to make them move on wm so quickly
Doesn't really directly affect to the feared spawn'n'shoot.
5 Make your mercenaries level up, before using them in Town Control. (so, they wouldn't be so strong, just after been bought
Again, takes only time.
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My point is to stop the using of lvl1 alt characters created only by proxy players, to put an abusive number of super mutants in TC.
If you want to use a leader on TC, play it before, by leveling the char and levelling the follower. So, it won't just be a dual screen and a few millions caps, but a real leader player, who worked enough to make his artillery strike possible. So, he would have used as much ressources, as the PVP big gun, got skilled, in order to level up himself, and his followers, and play only his leader the during the Town Control. Problem solved.
I don't care if there is supermuties spawn. There also could be tank in the battleground, as long as there is a pilot character, and a firer character in it.
What is questionnable is the fact you can use them too much easily if your faction has caps, and dual log proxies.
Building a group of supermuties should be a work on itself, with players dedicated to it. (if you don't like merc leader, don't play them)
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So, it won't just be a dual screen and a few millions caps, but a real leader player, who worked enough to make his artillery strike possible. So, he would have used as much ressources, as the PVP big gun, got skilled, in order to level up himself, and his followers, and play only his leader the during the Town Control. Problem solved.
This is the reason I started the topic in first place. Players think it's completely okay to receive great ammount of power by spending lots of time outside the actual pvp event by gathering resources.
I don't care if there is supermuties spawn. There also could be tank in the battleground, as long as there is a pilot character, and a firer character in it.
And I wouldn't care if you could buy a nuke with 1mil caps, launch it with 300science char and blast the whole server. The player had the right char and paid the caps, so he deserves results right?
Building a group of supermuties should be a work on itself, with players dedicated to it. (if you don't like merc leader, don't play them)
And now I can disagree. I'll try to explain plainly. In my opinion it is bad designing if players are rewarded excessively from dedicating lots of time on getting material and then using it against someone. The reason why is that when you use for example mutants against someone, it's not fair because that someone wasn't involved in the process it took for you to get the mutants. This person couldn't prevent you from gathering the resources but he has to deal with the outcome of your dedication.
Fairer option would be if more dedication was required inside the actual pvp event, rather than outside it. Surely dedication is required but only when builds, players numbers equipment are close to even.
I'd really like to get some answers to this, because what I just wrote above was the partially reason this topic was started.
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I think your point is about the fonline2238 whole gameplay.
In fonline, when you have something, it took generally time to get it. (the char, the stuff, the strategy, everything)
In the opposite, you can lose them quickly.
Which needs you to take a real care about everything you bring outside your base, outside your bank account. It's not only about TC, but the entire game system.
I think it is a purpose on itself. Am i wrong ?
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I think your point is about the fonline2238 whole gameplay.
In fonline, when you have something, it took generally time to get it. (the char, the stuff, the strategy, everything)
In the opposite, you can lose them quickly.
Which needs you to take a real care about everything you bring outside your base, outside your bank account. It's not only about TC, but the entire game system.
I think it is a purpose on itself. Am i wrong ?
It's ok when only npcs are involved but gets trickier when you deal with players. Players have right to defend themselves and deserve a chance to not to get wiped out just like that. They should also deserve a chance to outmatch each other with skill. Or at least that's what many succesful games are based on. If players outmatch each other with time, it's automatically unbalanced for others. That's because you can infinitely increase your power along with time, but skill has a limit. Even with hundreds of hours of training you can't get as powerful as by grinding for hundreds of hours.
Games that involve hoarding resources and then bringing those resources against other players have either of the following:
- Guaranteed safe places where players simply cannot harm others, but can participate in activities.
Or
- Chance to impair other player's resource gathering process. Unlike in fonline, where you can't rob enemy's bank or intervene his grinding process.
Only the latter one would suit fonline but there is funnier way to help the situation. Increase the ammount of how much skill has weight in the actual pvp event.
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Hey... thats an idea. bank robbery... interest wouldn't be the easy way to getting your own private army as much.. *evil grin*
<,..,<
-Ulrek-
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avv- you may have a point there but I don't see any suggestions on how to make these mythicall skills part of the game.
What skills should that be? Must I panint a picture to shoot from a in game gun? Or dance the flamenco to craft ammo? Maybe solve a sudocu to make a headshot? Halfcircle rigth + hi punch? Forward, back, down, lo-kick, hi kick, lo punch, hi punch+down. 4 HIT COMBO!!
Wrong game.
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avv- you may have a point there but I don't see any suggestions on how to make these mythicall skills part of the game.
What skills should that be? Must I panint a picture to shoot from a in game gun? Or dance the flamenco to craft ammo? Maybe solve a sudocu to make a headshot? Halfcircle rigth + hi punch? Forward, back, down, lo-kick, hi kick, lo punch, hi punch+down. 4 HIT COMBO!!
Wrong game.
Fallout tactics and Jagged Alliance 2 would be good examples to start with.
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avv- you may have a point there but I don't see any suggestions on how to make these mythicall skills part of the game.
What skills should that be? Must I panint a picture to shoot from a in game gun? Or dance the flamenco to craft ammo? Maybe solve a sudocu to make a headshot? Halfcircle rigth + hi punch? Forward, back, down, lo-kick, hi kick, lo punch, hi punch+down. 4 HIT COMBO!!
Wrong game.
A: You make no sense.
Fallout tactics and Jagged Alliance 2 would be good examples to start with.
B: I can kind of see the idea here. but really, the only way to make mutants less used. is to remove bank interest. that is, as far as i can tell the main reason people use mutants. cripple the money supply. and people won't be using super mutant mercs as much any more.
C: For the people who are saying "Just ban duel loggin' for gud!", they're trying.
D: For people who otherwise have no idea what they're talking about but still hate mutants due to getting blown up all the time.. spewing non-sense probably won't get anything done.
-Ulrek-
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B: I can kind of see the idea here. but really, the only way to make mutants less used. is to remove bank interest. that is, as far as i can tell the main reason people use mutants. cripple the money supply. and people won't be using super mutant mercs as much any more.
-Ulrek-
You dont get it ? You dont mind that you are dead before you see who firing ?
Can you people just see this simple thing ?
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B: I can kind of see the idea here. but really, the only way to make mutants less used. is to remove bank interest. that is, as far as i can tell the main reason people use mutants. cripple the money supply. and people won't be using super mutant mercs as much any more.
-Ulrek-
If anything the root of the problem is power gaming and horribly balanced combat among others. Blaming bank interest is just lazy.
Fix dual logging, re-balance the combat, make muties obtainable througha much slower process than "just paying caps" like faction points/reputation with remnants, adjust mutie weapon damage.
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If anything the root of the problem is power gaming and horribly balanced combat among others. Blaming bank interest is just lazy.
Fix dual logging, re-balance the combat, make muties obtainable througha much slower process than "just paying caps" like faction points/reputation with remnants, adjust mutie weapon damage.
Why do you think, that earning caps is easy? Yes, there was a bug with TC this session, but normally it's not that easy to get caps.
Moreover, to get muties, you also need to kill unity, get their rocket launchers, then go and stole rockets from brotherhood which isn't easy at all. After all, you need to give all stuff to muties and transport them to the city.
You just underestimate how difficult it is.
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Moreover, to get muties, you also need to kill unity, get their rocket launchers, then go and stole rockets from brotherhood which isn't easy at all. After all, you need to give all stuff to muties and transport them to the city.
You just underestimate how difficult it is.
I am sure you are correct. My post was more about how fucking lazy it is to just sit back and blame bank interest for the mutie problem instead of blaming power gaming. Or how the devs can't fix dual logging so folks instead point more fingers at bank interest. And the posts who would much rather blame bank interest than how fucked up it is for TC to give out caps instead of items. I am sure the primary reason for TC giving caps is to only allow the big gangs access to a substantial and consistent rate of caps. Combine that with the dictatorial approach of making most, if not all, good shit caps only and you see a pattern of favoritism to big gangs.
Best thread was Izual wanting to eliminate bank interest because of a stupid glitch and to help the big gangs out by screwing over the little folks.
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Why do you think, that earning caps is easy? Yes, there was a bug with TC this session, but normally it's not that easy to get caps.
Moreover, to get muties, you also need to kill unity, get their rocket launchers, then go and stole rockets from brotherhood which isn't easy at all. After all, you need to give all stuff to muties and transport them to the city.
You just underestimate how difficult it is.
All it takes is time, even hunting npc takes mostly time because it's easy to learn to fight them. There is not much real challenge to face except boredom.
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All it takes is time, even hunting npc takes mostly time because it's easy to learn to fight them. There is not much real challenge to face except boredom.
Current problem is that it takes no time. Interest money are generated without any player interaction and mercs with rocket lanchers can be bought by those money instantly.
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Interest money are generated without any player interaction and mercs with rocket lanchers can be bought by those money instantly.
And TC interest money can be generated by dual logging/modding/fast relogs/etc. So what if theres actual players doing it? Still another form of farming/abuse.
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And TC interest money can be generated by dual logging/modding/fast relogs/etc. So what if theres actual players doing it? Still another form of farming/abuse.
TC money have at least some limit. I think it is something equivalent to one pack of mutants a day a city. And there is risk of loosing it. You have to protect it all the time to make the income worth anything. but if you have 100M on account it is possible to have 10 packs of mutants a day without any risk of loosing that kind of income. Irl you can have few percent a year. Here you have aproximately 130000 percent a real year or 44 percent per ingame year. Pretty fast and easy money i think.
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TC money have at least some limit. I think it is something equivalent to one pack of mutants a day a city. And there is risk of loosing it. You have to protect it all the time to make the income worth anything. but if you have 100M on account it is possible to have 10 packs of mutants a day without any risk of loosing that kind of income. Irl you can have few percent a year. Here you have aproximately 130000 percent a real year or 44 percent per ingame year. Pretty fast and easy money i think.
First off its the big gangs that accumulate this kind of wealth by mindlessly robbing and killing folks. Same with farming TC through methods above. So to eliminate bank interest just because the power gamers want to abuse it sounds completely ridiculous to me. What about the guys who don't do TC or massively rob anyone and everyone. They are trying to make caps too. Just fuck them over right?
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Just fuck them over right?
Wasteland is harsh kurwa. xD
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Well, i dont think that the only reason of abusing muties is income from bank interest. There are many ways how to get caps and even you would eliminate all game economy disbalancing elemets, there will exist:
a) gang richness generated by higher number of players (more players = more caps per gang ... = more muties)
b) unfair ability to kill player's (main) battle chars without any self defense possibility (except "dont stay near respawn points tactic")
But on other way, after i saw a lot of current Aliance (dozens of players) wars, its at least quicker way to kill them all. So i believe in Domination mode, where teams will be limited by max number of players. So muties could equalize teams strenght (if any of team will lack of players).
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a) gang richness generated by higher number of players (more players = more caps per gang ... = more muties)
Implement more chances to affect your success in combat to reduce the weight wealth has in pvp.
b) unfair ability to kill player's (main) battle chars without any self defense possibility (except "dont stay near respawn points tactic")
It's basically reverse-gridcamping. Instead of shooting those who enter, you enter yourself and cause similar havoc. Fast fix would be some sort of delay when entering, as you suggested. Or adding additional ground and extended grids around some tc town maps (at least redding) with lots of line of sight blocking scenery.
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So i believe in Domination mode, where teams will be limited by max number of players.
Well, that doesint sound really fun... It is a very cheap way to balance the combat system if you ask me, ending in a very cheap play...
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Well, that doesint sound really fun... It is a very cheap way to balance the combat system if you ask me, ending in a very cheap play...
Even if some one added this. FOnline isn't a highly restricted game, you try to put up a wall, and half the community makes bomber alts and blows it up. in other words, gangs will just have 5 core members taking the town, and have the rest of their faction friends lurk around and kill anyone who's not with them, even if you tried to put a limit on the number of people allowed to fight over a town at once.
In short, mutants are only really really powerful right now due to the fact that gangs use them to grid camp and grid ambush, if you cant fix those, removing bank interest would slow down the problem, but thats why its the least effective option.
-Ulrek-
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Make mutants cost something other than caps. Just as cheap and effective as an option to remove bank interest. Much fairer to the little guys BTW.
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It's basically reverse-gridcamping. Instead of shooting those who enter, you enter yourself and cause similar havoc. Fast fix would be some sort of delay when entering, as you suggested. Or adding additional ground and extended grids around some tc town maps (at least redding) with lots of line of sight blocking scenery.
But there was not problem with grid camping ... grid camping (even without muties) makes you very visible and enemy could simple ambush you from different side.. Even during TC, we used sneakers to find and locate enemy, so i dont remember any grid camping. Also dont forget that TC maps have at least 3 entrances.. splitiing yourself is nonsense.. guarding one grid and leaving others too.
Grid camping is usable tactics during PKilling, not during PvP fights.
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I don't think its a problemof bank interest or overpowered mercsor et, its simply abuse/exploiting something. Big gangs already make enough money through whatever the heck they do. If they decide to abuse the bank interest system thats THEIR choice to do. Same with grid camping er whatever. Its the devs responsibility to fix not through nerfing but ingenuity.
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I bet everyone who is complaining wishes they had a mutant merc
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i rekon 8 max with 8 millita you still can hold the town from smaller factions