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[Sarakin]

Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies. The thing is, that mercs are not valuable to anyone, because everyone has tons of caps. The way I see how to improve it, is by setting constant very low interest rate ( 0.5% ? ) and removing caps from TC chests - replacing them with ammo, drugs, armors, weapons as was already suggested countless times.
Recent events showed me, that removing militia would be probably the best. Maybe leaving one city with militia for RP projects.

[avv]

Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies.

So to counter more numerous enemies, you just grind harder to afford muties. Like I said, time = power. What if those more numerous enemies start grinding even harder, how are you going to counter that?

[Sarakin]

Ok I should reformulate it, its one of the ways how to counter more numerous enemies.
Its up to you how you will use caps - you can buy yourself a nice combat armor and a gun or a mutant. But loss of mutant will be the same as losing that armor and gun - and nobody likes that. Now, with infinite caps, no one cares about them, still weapons and armors have a minor value.
Avv you cant expect that a guy that plays only at weekends for several hours can be a match to nolifer. Its a MMORPG, not some instant FPS action. Besides FPS players have to grind too in a way, you wont be a pro by playing once in a year.

[Lordus]

Mutants and mercs clearly have place in pvp, its the only way how to counter more numerous enemies. The thing is, that mercs are not valuable to anyone, because everyone has tons of caps. The way I see how to improve it, is by setting constant very low interest rate ( 0.5% ? ) and removing caps from TC chests - replacing them with ammo, drugs, armors, weapons as was already suggested countless times.
Recent events showed me, that removing militia would be probably the best. Maybe leaving one city with militia for RP projects.

 Problem is, that mercs is the only way how to counter more numerous enemies, but also the way, how more numerous enemies are raising their power. You cannot divide those two functions, they are here and because of this, the first one (countermeasure) is weakened by second (raising power of powerful gang). More powerfull gang with more proxies wil use more mercs to kill more enemies, there is not any economical, game mechanic reason to not using power.

 Again, there is not any chance to balance caps economy in 2238 using current mechanics. Every era there was any abuse, bug or feature that disbalanced economy. But even if there would not exist any bugs, more numerous gangs will have acces to more caps so they will be able to buy more muties and they will be more powerfull.

 It is simple math, try to imagine it in graph.

 And again, i dont have anything against merc leaders in cities, towns, if they have to control them and they cant use their artillery ability. So just freeze them for random time (15-30) seconds, so you would need clear and secured area (secured by real players, for christ), so no more instaspawn and instakills into the enemy.

[avv]

Avv you cant expect that a guy that plays only at weekends for several hours can be a match to nolifer. Its a MMORPG, not some instant FPS action. Besides FPS players have to grind too in a way, you wont be a pro by playing once in a year.

I'm not expecting that. But in our case it just goes over the edge when it comes to grind power vs skill power.
Hinkley offers pretty decent "grab a gun and go" action and what I've heard about domination, it won't require much grind either.

[Michaelh139]

Lordus, although i agree with much of what you say you point at Polish players for this "abuse".  When it is well-known fact that russian players use mutant swarm the most, not that it makes a difference(because everyone does it to a degree), just don't be racist like that because there is no point your just pointin the finger trying to build up hate.

And again, i dont have anything against merc leaders in cities, towns, if they have to control them and they cant use their artillery ability. So just freeze them for random time (15-30) seconds, so you would need clear and secured area (secured by real players, for christ), so no more instaspawn and instakills into the enemy.

15-30 seconds...?  What the hell?  You and your entire squad will be dead in 5 seconds if you and them don't react quickly!!

Imagine a merc leader walking into a town, with his little band of mercs, (doesn't have to be muties) and some small team of players decides, "hey this guy just spawned in town with mercs, lets go in and kill him and rape his mercs since they can't do shit."

Such a freeze is not the way to go, though I'll admit I cannot think of another way, if a freeze is implemented it should only be 2-3 seconds.

[Lordus]

Lordus, although i agree with much of what you say you point at Polish players for this "abuse".  When it is well-known fact that russian players use mutant swarm the most, not that it makes a difference(because everyone does it to a degree), just don't be racist like that because there is no point your just pointin the finger trying to build up hate.

 Sorry. I apologize to every russian and other nation abusers i forgot to name

 My point is that player who control merc leader should fight in city/location itself, he should not fight 1 second before he enters the location (= worldmap click 1 second before his artilery spawn at spawn point). He should control his mercs, target their victims, ... .

 Current system reducing the merc leadership to 1 click instakill artilery. It is opposite of aproach that PLAYER skills is greater than passive atributes and abilities, multiplied by abusing of simplified existence/construction of cities and whole world wasteland (entering from worldmap into cities).

 If mercs would stay frozen for some period, merc leader would need to 1) locate mercs in city before fight itself or 2) support them by real players. This fact would eliminate spawn instakills (because of freeze), it would create merc leaders (chars that could do in 1 fire cumulative average damage cca 350-500 damage, multiplied by area damages by other rockets) as a supportive combat chars, not ultimate spawn killers that are deciding about the winner side. Also one PvP player would chalenge again another PvP player (merc. leader), not his proxy alt (his left hand mouse click) like now.

 Another thing i dont understand:

 Mercs are mercenaries, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary , so they are not slaves, they care about their lives. But every merc leader consumes muties and other mercs like they are basic artilery shell. So i suggest to make kind of "mercs" karma. If you loose your merck, you will lose karma, so you are unable to buy another one... But this aproach needs more coding, testing, it is abusable (lvl 1 leaders, you need only high charisma, thats all), so most effective is freeze.

 Freeze 2-3 seconds are not enough. Muties can RL have 40 hex distance.. That is not enough. I have different view. Muties are strong, they have good firepower. In real world, weapons with high firepower are also often very vulnerable, especially in cities (even Armors, Tanks).

 So if you want to use muties, you need to do more, check area, clear it first, than enter, they are slow (it is ok, they have big firepower), you need to set them order, where to stay, locate them, you need to control them, before battle, during battle.. Active aproach, not passive 1 click.

 I told everything about this, so i dont need to write more. It is devs project, if they want very unbalancing element implement into the game, they dont need to do, they already have it.

[avv]

Current system reducing the merc leadership to 1 click instakill artilery. It is opposite of aproach that PLAYER skills is greater than passive atributes and abilities, multiplied by abusing of simplified existence/construction of cities and whole world wasteland (entering from worldmap into cities).

Player skills? An instakill mutant artillery killing a group of 3rd tier stuff is no differend than someone shooting a lowlevel with minigun. Throw in the caps, get results. 5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.

You can try to find a way to "balance" the issue by nerfing mutants but from my point of view the situation IS balanced because the caps were paid. You want to fix something try to fix the situation, which is caps = power. This means finding a solution that reaches down to every level of wealth, not just muties and militia.

[DocAN.]

Can someone develop some special MINIGUN for "avv" it will shoot with "caps" coz they are most powerfull.

[Daro]

5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.

But enrol 5 good PvP players is harder than buy 5 muties.

[avv]

But enrol 5 good PvP players is harder than buy 5 muties.

What's your point?

[runboy93]

Can someone develop some special MINIGUN for "avv" it will shoot with "caps" coz they are most powerfull.

Hah.. don't make me laugh
Money is just thing that make peoples jealous and angry (Maybe that kind powerful..?)
But still.. skill and experience show more power than any amount of money.

[Daro]

What's your point?

So 5 muties shouldn’t be as deadly as 5 well armed players. Also don’t forget that AI is worse than sharp human mind.

[Lordus]

Player skills? An instakill mutant artillery killing a group of 3rd tier stuff is no differend than someone shooting a lowlevel with minigun.

There are differencies:

 1) PK with avenger is still player controled char, 5 muties in spawn is proxy click of player, who has already logged in his own basic pvp char
 2) you have chance to survive one or two burst by avenger, if you run. if attacker spawn at spawn point near you, he risks his own primary character, not his proxy alt, so even spawn kill by teleporting player attacker is not equal to proxy artilery
 

Throw in the caps, get results. 5 muties are worth around 100-200k, so you get 200k worth power from them. You can arm a group of 5 with good equipment with the same money, so shouldn't you get the same results? Skill has nothing to do with this it's all caps.
 

 Caps price is obsolete, in my suggestion i dont use it (or only in comparsion with another stuff), but general currency in all online game activites is: "TIME" you need to spend to get adequate level, weapons, armors,.. .

 If you want to use PvP build, you need to level up (21lvl) your PvP main battle character, you need to spend 4-20 hours by exping (depends on type of char, your knowledge about experience, your ammo, weapons, armors, drugs supply, your team background). After this, you get character, that has power to challenge enemy character, but still you need to spend another time to get ammo, stuff, armors to suply your pvp char in PvP. We can call it as one PvP unit. (1 PvPUN).

 If you want to use your merc leader, you dont need to lvl up that unit, you need to collect money (0 minutes) buy mercs (5 minutes), transport them (1 minute), click in right moment (1 second) to kill 4-5 players (4-5 PvPUN).

 Now compare time you need to kill one enemy using your main battle char and using your mercs as an artilery. This is totaly imba.

You can try to find a way to "balance" the issue by nerfing mutants but from my point of view the situation IS balanced because the caps were paid. You want to fix something try to fix the situation, which is caps = power. This means finding a solution that reaches down to every level of wealth, not just muties and militia.

 Caps inflation X static price of almost everything would be always problem.. In project, that is now developing, i suggested economy model, taht caps would be very rare, so this could be a way. But it is not possible to implement here.

nerfing mutants

 I DONT WANT NERF MUTANTS (mercs). Their power, price everything should stay as it is. Only thing i want, is to eliminate abusing of concept of entering to the cities. Current state is that players and mercs are "teleporting" into the city, without any warning, any latency. Few eras before, there was temporary invulnerability.. it had disadvantages. After erasing that feature, players were very careful, because every enter to location could kill them. But you dont need to be carefull, if you enter to city with proxy alt, = artilery, you can reload in few minutes at full strenght without any negative impact and buy this recharge by infinite amount of caps..

[avv]

So 5 muties shouldn’t be as deadly as 5 well armed players. Also don’t forget that AI is worse than sharp human mind.

Well if the players are so good, they should use their skills.

1) PK with avenger is still player controled char, 5 muties in spawn is proxy click of player, who has already logged in his own basic pvp char
 2) you have chance to survive one or two burst by avenger, if you run. if attacker spawn at spawn point near you, he risks his own primary character, not his proxy alt, so even spawn kill by teleporting player attacker is not equal to proxy artilery

But the mutant spawner sacrifices his mutants. Life has no value in fonline so it doesn't matter if someone dies, only the tools have a price.

Caps price is obsolete, in my suggestion i dont use it (or only in comparsion with another stuff), but general currency in all online game activites is: "TIME" you need to spend to get adequate level, weapons, armors,.. .

Time pretty much equals caps. But it equals many other things aswell.

If you want to use PvP build, you need to level up (21lvl) your PvP main battle character, you need to spend 4-20 hours by exping (depends on type of char, your knowledge about experience, your ammo, weapons, armors, drugs supply, your team background). After this, you get character, that has power to challenge enemy character, but still you need to spend another time to get ammo, stuff, armors to suply your pvp char in PvP. We can call it as one PvP unit. (1 PvPUN).

Pretty good summary.

If you want to use your merc leader, you dont need to lvl up that unit, you need to collect money (0 minutes) buy mercs (5 minutes), transport them (1 minute), click in right moment (1 second) to kill 4-5 players (4-5 PvPUN).

Well I question whether it's okay to even spend that pvpunit in first place. Why is it that everyone has to prepare for hours before they get to fight if they plan to be succesful? Too much preparing and time spent OUTSIDE the actual pvp event. In my opinion the game would be much funnier and action packed if you could just grab a gun and go fighting. Your personal skills would then decide the outcome, economy would follow behind. An example would be any querilla fighter with simple gear. A single ak47 is enough to cause big material and personnel losses to a superior enemy if the insurgent knows what to do.

Now compare time you need to kill one enemy using your main battle char and using your mercs as an artilery. This is totaly imba.

Then just raise the price, or make a leader profesion that requires high level and speech skill. Then it would take equal ammount of pvpunits to get a leader. This would be simple, but worse fix.

I DONT WANT NERF MUTANTS (mercs). Their power, price everything should stay as it is. Only thing i want, is to eliminate abusing of concept of entering to the cities.

You could blame our combat system fom that.
You start with full aps, you turn instantly, you launch your weapons instantly. You have 95% accuracy in most cases, you can't reduce enemy's accuracy with your actions. Enemy has very good sight in all directions. This all gets multiplied by mercs' instant reactions. Too many instant and passive factors around.