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Author Topic: Mercs & militia are imba?  (Read 12066 times)

Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 09:27:42 pm »

Interest rates isn't the problem, its the balance.  Its ridiculous to give more and more caps to a gang who controls a town and then let them multiply it even more by abusing the bank system.  TC rewards could be in the form of either schematics or compnents to aid in teh development of arms and munitions.  It keeps TC and PVP alive without the abuses of infinite buying power.

This topic has been discussed before and its retarded to fuck over the little guys simply because some folks out there have nothing better to do thanb play all fucking day or abuse a flawed tc reward system.
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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 10:40:20 pm »

Major problem of mercs is their artilery (spawn instakill ability), because one proxy merc leader could eliminate 4 or 5 real players, i will repear it again: 1 click of real player could eliminate 4 or 5 also real players. This has nothing to do with fair play and with game balance or with challenging genius tactic of enemy. Nobody use mercs in the middle of map, it is only the artilery or stopper at spawn points. Using mercs in the middle of cities needs full atention and they are there less powerfull.

I dont believe that any aproach based on economy changes would affect imba of mercs. If you set harder condition to get those mercs (bigger value), only most powerfull gang would use them. Most powerfull in this game means most numerous gang. If you set conditions too low, it is the spam of supermutants like now.

Simple equations:

 less powerfull gang = less mercs X more powerfull gang = more mercs
 less cheating gang (no proxy, dual logs) = less benefit from mercs X more cheating gang = bigger benefit

 Question n.1

 Do mercs raising the gamebalance of PvP or they dont?

 Question n.2

 Would the PvP be less entertaining without mercs or not?

 Q. n.3

 Is there any real ingame possibility to eliminate mercs proxy abusing or not?



 Militia problem.

  Dont you think, that existence of militia at north cities is the reason why they are so abandon? First few eras, there were PKs everywere, mostly in northern cities, but there was also always normal players.

 Most players identify militia like potential problem, because there is always chance that one marking hit would kill you, even if you have best stuff and marker has only bb gun. It does not matter, who actualy controls the city, every player got own bad experience with militia (marking players) and this is fact that they generaly dont visit northern cities, because players "learn" that those places are death zones.

 The fact, that one gang or alliance or roleplayproject could use this ability to roleplay is only theoretical. Try to review this ability. Does this sometimes work, and if yes, what were conditions (how many players were on server, which era, how many players were online,..). I know that this could sound absurd, but too restrictive policy, like safe zones, militia, could result in opposite effect that they were design for. PKs are abusing the rules in safe cities, militia dont helps to guard roleplay city, but it is constant reason to attack this city. Do you remember first Modoc militia? This project stoped after implementing of militia.

 On other way, i admit that changes back would not always return the same playability. I.e. Namecolourizing. There was a massive apeal against this, in hope that this would restore old small gangs PvP actions, but it fails, like i presumed, because alliances evolved into something more than basic colour taging, something like online game virtual friendship and this can not be eliminated by erasing of NC.

 The same fact could be with eliminating of militia at northern cities. Players learned to not to visit those places, so why they will start to visiting that places again.. only because there is not exist any instakill probability?
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Graf

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 10:41:37 pm »

blah-blah-blah... make militia useless
Do you feel a pain between your left and right buttock? Yeah... that called butthurt. You've just joined the club of offended noobs.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:45:59 pm by Graf »
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Surf

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 10:57:15 pm »

Do you feel a pain between your left and right buttock? Yeah... that called butthurt. You've just joined the club of offended noobs.

Actually, you are the one doing an useless flame/trollpost.

At no point avv whined in here, rather talking about the bigger picture, which you apparently are unable to comprehend, neither someone is "butthurt". It was a normal discussion until you dropped in with this shit.

Graf

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 08:58:49 am »

Actually, you are the one doing an useless flame/trollpost.

At no point avv whined in here, rather talking about the bigger picture, which you apparently are unable to comprehend, neither someone is "butthurt". It was a normal discussion until you dropped in with this shit.
I have to disagree with that. What I did, is a post that shown a true nature of this topic. Sometimes it's necessary to do something like that to stop a discussion that leads nowhere.
And yes, I've read this topic before replying and found there a lot of whining which is very annoying.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:00:50 am by Graf »
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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 09:33:21 am »

Whining ? Tell me how you can fight with someone in town full of militia ? Its morning, you have 3 players and you will see 5 enemies. You think you can fight them ? Of course that no.


Or, you are running somewere near exit grid and you just get 5 rocket and insta death. And what a surprise ? You couldnt defend yourself.


Whining ? Please

You know answers, dont try something like "Stop fighting in towns where is militia or dont be somewhere near exit grids"

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Surf

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 09:43:36 am »

I have to disagree with that. What I did, is a post that shown a true nature of this topic. Sometimes it's necessary to do something like that to stop a discussion that leads nowhere.
And yes, I've read this topic before replying and found there a lot of whining which is very annoying.

Apparently you fail to conceive the process of beta testing and the difference between "whining" and feedback/discussions. Doesn't surprise me though, seeing the nature of some of your other posts. Mayhaps you shouldn't write in this thread anymore.

wezu

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 10:00:01 am »

Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.

When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.

But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.

But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).

... and if people use multilogs to spam mercs... Do you realy think mercs are the problem? C'mon...

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avv

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 10:37:47 am »

This isn't just about militia & mutants. It's about how grinding is the basis of power in pvp.

And who from these players "which" complaining actually tasted their medicine ?

Those who couldn't cope with mutants and militia. Now the enemy has superior equipment and giving them hard time.
That's what I'd call taste of one's own medicine.

Major problem of mercs is their artilery (spawn instakill ability), because one proxy merc leader could eliminate 4 or 5 real players, i will repear it again: 1 click of real player could eliminate 4 or 5 also real players. This has nothing to do with fair play and with game balance or with challenging genius tactic of enemy. Nobody use mercs in the middle of map, it is only the artilery or stopper at spawn points. Using mercs in the middle of cities needs full atention and they are there less powerfull.

It is fair in terms of current game settings. The one who bought the mutants paid caps, so he received power. In same way when you buy BA with caps, you receive power. If the mutants are too powerful for their current price, the logical solution would be to raise the price but that wouldn't help since all you need is time to grind.

Quote
I dont believe that any aproach based on economy changes would affect imba of mercs. If you set harder condition to get those mercs (bigger value), only most powerfull gang would use them. Most powerfull in this game means most numerous gang. If you set conditions too low, it is the spam of supermutants like now.

This is true.

Quote
Do mercs raising the gamebalance of PvP or they dont?

You can't put it that way. Only thing that matters here is how much time/people you got to get caps.

Quote
Would the PvP be less entertaining without mercs or not?

Leader builds need their place too.

Quote
Is there any real ingame possibility to eliminate mercs proxy abusing or not?

Yes. It's purely a matter of strategic options available in pvp. Add more options where players can invest their skills, instead of caps and there should be results. Combat is too dependent on your equipment and less dependent on how good you play. If there was a chance for players to hone their skills, they would win even much wealthier opponents.

Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.

When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.

But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.

But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).

The idea is the worst thing. You grind = you get to decide what happens to another player. Would you like it if some day you logged in and found your character deleted because someone paid 10million caps? He paid the caps, he deserves results right? The mutants are similar I win button as minigun is against bluesuit.
You can't balance pvp based on people's freetime.
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Lordus

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 10:38:33 am »

Well, the general idea behind militia and mercs is good.

When you pay a-lot-o-caps, you should get something that has a-lot-o-power.

But maybe it's gone to far? Is having 5 mutants like a 'I win' button? Is militia godlike? That I can't say.

But I can say that getting caps for personal armies is way to easy for some players. That should be changed (I've gave some pointers how elsewhere).

... and if people use multilogs to spam mercs... Do you realy think mercs are the problem? C'mon...



 You seriously missing the fact that there is a very difference between using mercs (supermutants) regulary and using them as artilery. Supermutants itself does not cause of imbalance of PvP, but the fact that you can kill even 5 players by one click and there is not any effective defence agaisnt this.

 So you collect your friends to evening PvP, you take your best stuff, you prepare for battle, prepare tactics, you enter the city and you die, because one polish boy use his second comp or proxy so he attack you and he does not even needs to focus at that mutant leader. Its suicide of that mutants, without any negative impact (negative karma for NPCs traders,.. ).

 So again, one small proxy cheater destory fun of 5 real human players in five seconds after one click (because he has already prepared his muties over that locaiton he wants to enter). And again, during PvP, teams uses this tactic not once, but twice or even more.

 And beause you need proxy to do this tactic (because noone sane will stay only over the map and wait for mates instruction, he wants to fight too), cheating teams are in huge advantage againt them who does not cheat.

 This is simple stetament, prooved by many photos, vides, testaments of PvP players and nobody cares.

 Problem is, that this makes maps like Redding unplayable, because if enemy holds right bottom corner and they have muties over the South and Downtown entrances, WHOLE area around main street and south east of map is death trap. This does not have anything to do with good gameplay.

 And solution? Temporary is simple.. Disable NPC merc traders... Slavers would still enslave their chars and this would help gamebalance again.

 Devs, GM, one suggestion: try to join few TC PvP actions and test how funny is to challenge or die cause of mutans (mercs). It is absurd, because you did a great job to balance PvP this era, with one exception...
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Graf

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 11:11:21 am »

Whining ? Tell me how you can fight with someone in town full of militia ? Its morning, you have 3 players and you will see 5 enemies. You think you can fight them ? Of course that no.
Or, you are running somewere near exit grid and you just get 5 rocket and insta death. And what a surprise ? You couldnt defend yourself.
Whining ? Please
You know answers, dont try something like "Stop fighting in towns where is militia or dont be somewhere near exit grids"
This is a matter of tactics - how to fight in a city full of militia and enemies simultaneously. Somehow our team manage to succeed in that, and doesn't complain to anyone on forums how difficult it was, while you do.
Do you really want to just come to the city and simply take control over it? Try to imagine a real city with citizens and people who are protecting it. If their morality is high - they will be protecting it well until they can.
What we could do with that? I have an answer. Town Control system should be upgraded with "Morality" of guards (Militia):
you can read more about that suggestion here
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:13:32 am by Graf »
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manero

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 12:02:44 pm »

If u dont want to die because of our mercs buy yours mercs. We play the same game. Everyone got access to the same things so whats the problem? When WWP had Redding u had militia. We killed them and than killed u. It wasn't easy and he had to make a brainstorm to create a tactic. When we have Redding defended by militia u started to open new threads, another and another, everywhere and everywhere. I dont remember whining Chosen Soldiers, i dont remember whining Red Dots and i dont remember whining Rogues. Every time u got a problem with something u WHINE. STOP doing this or just stop calling us KIDS. Who is kid here? Guys FFS. CHILLOUT.

avv

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 12:04:55 pm »

This is a matter of tactics

It's a matter of how much people are in your gang, how much freetime you got and how much equipment (armor, guns, ammo, mercs) you have. Only when these factors are equal between two gangs, actual tactics start to matter.
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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 12:09:01 pm »

No caps in Town Control Locker, there should be loot, like it was few wipes ago.
When someone die near Town or inside it, his loot will spawn i locker.
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wezu

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Re: Mercs & militia are imba?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 12:11:31 pm »

Lordus-> so you say cheaters beat non-cheaters, so devs need to change a part of the game that would work if there are no cheaters? And I'm missing a point?!

avv-> fo isn't a game of rock, paper, scisors where one beats another. It's not chest where the best player wins. It's like poker where you bet with your own money, you can have a good hand but if you don't have the money you've lost.
Fo would be a game of skill only if all had the same level, teams would be equal and all weapons, armor, ammo, drugs for free. Like in Quake.
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