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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: smoothjesus on August 08, 2010, 12:05:00 pm
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Are there any plans in the future to add negative effects to playing a thief alt?
I got so annoyed at thieves in NCR that I started sitting around the merchant with a 10mm SMG in my offhand and healing powders in my inventory as bait. It was fun for awhile, hopefully I deterred a few players from continuing their thief builds. Then it got kind of frustrating... I slowly came to the realization that it doesn't matter. No matter how many I shot they didn't lose anything other than 2 minutes of their time to get back to town and start again, avoiding me this time.
Here are some ideas:
Autopush: You tag someone as a thief and your character automatically shoves them away when they get to close.
Guards: Should shoot thieves, it's nice that the guard told that unarmed level 2 player that the level 21 player just stole from them, but he or she has no chance of stopping them so it was kind of pointless.
Guards: Should also point out returning thieves who are still unprotected "Didn't expect to see you around here so soon, playername. You better leave while you still can."
Ban from town: If you are killed while unprotected you are banned from that city for one full in game day. If you do decide to come to town the guards will tell you to leave and will shoot you in 30 seconds. You are also unprotected from other players, so you can't run into town, steal and run back out again.
Billboard list of unprotected people: And a reward of 50 caps for killing an unprotected person, this would only work if the above option was implemented otherwise people would use it to farm caps (despite their being easier legitimate ways to get caps)
Shopowners: "GET OUT OF MY STORE, THIEF!" in big red writing would be awesome, why should the thief be allowed to hang around shops freely while other people have to wait? Surely the shopowner must get annoyed that his clients are being scared away or robbed by all the loiterers in his store.
I am aware of other towns in the game. But if this game ever becomes popular the thief problem will be spread to every town and not just NCR.
If steal is being changed in the next update then woo and yay you can ignore this thread.
edit: just clarified a few of the ideas
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You seem to underestimate how annoying the life from a thief is, we tend to fail stealing a single cap with even 300% steal, and really, we spawn at Klamath more often than you think. these days no one carries good items in NCR anyway we barely make any profit, and get shot often. and there is the problem that it takes ages to actually level your thief character.
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Stealing shouldn't be so hard and shouldn't be so easy.
It's just next way to get some money in post-apocalyptic world.
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It shouldn't played animation during the stealing.
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Yeah, it shouldn't when your stealing skill reaches mmm let say 200%
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the most stupid thing about stealing is, that you have no way to prevent stealing...
you come to town, go to trader and try to barter... a person came to you and tries to steal from you... you quickly close the dialogue screen and run, then the thief stays there, waiting for you again... and you know, that he is thief, but you cant do anything against him, until the guards see him stealing...
stealing without animation is pretty dumb idea, because it will ruin trading between players completely...
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Try to trade in less overcrowded place?
Stop nerfing stealing, it's hard enough now.
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Try to trade in less overcrowded place?
Stop nerfing stealing, it's hard enough now.
please read again... i am talking about animation while stealing... if it will be disabled, trades between players become impossible, because you have to stay right next to other player to trade, and you will never know if he is not stealing from you (or at least you will realize it too late)...
Thieving at vendors places should be considered the same as blocking, because it makes vendors inaccessible (if you dont want to lose your stuff), and in real situation, no shop owner will let the thief steal in his shop...
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You seem to underestimate how annoying the life from a thief is
Oh wow...
"we tend to fail stealing a single cap with even 300% steal,"
And yet you often easily steal rifles and heavy ore from peoples' back pockets in plain view of 3 guards and a shop keeper. And what do you lose when you fail a steal attempt? Oh that's right:
"we spawn at Klamath more often than you think. these days no one carries good items in NCR anyway we barely make any profit, and get shot often."
You get shot and lose nothing.. then from klamath its 5-10 minutes to get back to NCR.. less if you just kill yourself until you respawn closer. And you barely make a profit? Define profit please, because thieves don't really cost you anything you should be making 100% profit.
" and there is the problem that it takes ages to actually level your thief character."
So guards, shopkeepers and players should respect your efforts by letting you walk around town stealing in front of everybody and going unpunished?
Try to trade in less overcrowded place?
Read the last bit of my original post again.
"Stop nerfing stealing, it's hard enough now."
I'm suggesting punishments for getting caught being an ass in town (not just stealing) and a way for people to defend themselves from prolific and careless thieves. I'm not suggesting the steal skill be nerfed.
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Steal is hard enought now, dont nerf it more.
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It should somehow to get little nerf, but no too much ;)
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What do you want nerf here? If your target move 1 hex away you cant steal. After steal guards tell you are unprotected, so every nearly player know he can shoot you. And you want make it harder?
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the most stupid thing about stealing is, that you have no way to prevent stealing...
you come to town, go to trader and try to barter... a person came to you and tries to steal from you... you quickly close the dialogue screen and run
You exploiting. Your character don't know about thief, until thief fails.
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Right now thievery don't seem to have any other meaning than give very limited source of excitement to its player. Because of severe consequences from getting caught steal >200 is recommended and with that you can't do anything else but steal. You can't use the weapons you steal, you can't craft, you can't fight. The whole thief-class is unfinished, it doesn't even have a real place in the game world. It would be all the same if the whole skill just ceased from existing.
Before you start wondering should using steal skill be easier or harder you should think about what's the point of stealing in first place.
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I think the problem here is the similar like in other skills. Players push their characters up to 300% and don't have much points left for other skills, which leads to a "thief powerbuild", you cant do anything other then stealing. Cap the skill limit at 200% at maximum. Then, there'd be a few points left, to invest in some basic gun skills etc. Otherwise, everyone pulling every single skillpoint into one none- combat skill and then whining that levelling is too hard/thiefes only can do one thing proper... ::)
Well.
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I would be happy if i could tag someone as a thief. I hate to run away from thief, when i know (and my character too - he was robbed by this thief before) what he is planning.
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I would be happy if i could tag someone as a thief. I hate to run away from thief, when i know (and my character too - he was robbed by this thief before) what he is planning.
use namecolorizing... I have all thieves tagged with yellow color, so I can recognize them every time...
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You get me wrong. Im talking about situation when i know who is a thief and i have to run away from him to prevent him from stealing. I would be happy when i could stop someone from stealing by tagging him/marking or something else.
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Oh wow...
"we tend to fail stealing a single cap with even 300% steal,"
And yet you often easily steal rifles and heavy ore from peoples' back pockets in plain view of 3 guards and a shop keeper. And what do you lose when you fail a steal attempt? Oh that's right:
"we spawn at Klamath more often than you think. these days no one carries good items in NCR anyway we barely make any profit, and get shot often."
You get shot and lose nothing.. then from klamath its 5-10 minutes to get back to NCR.. less if you just kill yourself until you respawn closer. And you barely make a profit? Define profit please, because thieves don't really cost you anything you should be making 100% profit.
You forgot 1 vital thing, Time. You lose nothing? you always lose something. You lose time. People say they didn't pay for an object because they made it themself, they didnt pay in caps no, they paid in time. You waste incredible amounts of time as a thief, sure crafters and merchants do to. But thieves do to. Merchants see lots of scum everyday, why bother if it robs on of his costumers? chances are the thief will sell it for cheaper to the merchant anyway. Suiciding till you spawn closer? hah chances are you will spawn even further and waste more time, life isn't that easy.
" and there is the problem that it takes ages to actually level your thief character."
So guards, shopkeepers and players should respect your efforts by letting you walk around town stealing in front of everybody and going unpunished?
No it should allow me to rob people in front of everybody without anyone noticing. want to nerf stealing? don't. instead change it.
For example, change the way stealing chances work, if somoene wears 20 hunting rifles in his inventory it will be much easier to steal it from the guy than somoene who just crafted his first hunting rifle and wears it on his back.
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You seem to underestimate how annoying the life from a thief is, we tend to fail stealing a single cap with even 300% steal, and really, we spawn at Klamath more often than you think. these days no one carries good items in NCR anyway we barely make any profit, and get shot often. and there is the problem that it takes ages to actually level your thief character.
My experience exactly.
I've been leveling my thief character for about 2 months now (no exploiting, so it takes long) and am a few 1000 xp away from level 21.
It's hard, but I have to say it was the build that was the most fun to level.
Thieving at vendors places should be considered the same as blocking, because it makes vendors inaccessible (if you dont want to lose your stuff), and in real situation, no shop owner will let the thief steal in his shop...
Vendors are perfectly accessible.
I have no problem trading, even when thieves are around, although sometime it takes longer as you have to run off from time to time.
The only thing that needs to be dealt with here are the thieves who keep harassing the same player, trying to steal from them over and over and following them around.
Oh wow...
"we tend to fail stealing a single cap with even 300% steal,"
And yet you often easily steal rifles and heavy ore from peoples' back pockets in plain view of 3 guards and a shop keeper. And what do you lose when you fail a steal attempt? Oh that's right:
"we spawn at Klamath more often than you think. these days no one carries good items in NCR anyway we barely make any profit, and get shot often."
You get shot and lose nothing.. then from klamath its 5-10 minutes to get back to NCR.. less if you just kill yourself until you respawn closer. And you barely make a profit? Define profit please, because thieves don't really cost you anything you should be making 100% profit.
" and there is the problem that it takes ages to actually level your thief character."
So guards, shopkeepers and players should respect your efforts by letting you walk around town stealing in front of everybody and going unpunished?
Read the last bit of my original post again.
"Stop nerfing stealing, it's hard enough now."
I'm suggesting punishments for getting caught being an ass in town (not just stealing) and a way for people to defend themselves from prolific and careless thieves. I'm not suggesting the steal skill be nerfed.
Being a thief is rather unprofitable when you look at profit and the time needed to get it.
As long as thieves don't bother guards and shop keepers, they indeed should leave them alone.
Most likely thieves are also their biggest regulars when it comes to trading.
You're suggesting thieving gets nerved, implying the steal skill gets nerved.
It's hard the way it is, try for yourself to find out.
Which is what I did.
Right now thievery don't seem to have any other meaning than give very limited source of excitement to its player. Because of severe consequences from getting caught steal >200 is recommended and with that you can't do anything else but steal. You can't use the weapons you steal, you can't craft, you can't fight. The whole thief-class is unfinished, it doesn't even have a real place in the game world. It would be all the same if the whole skill just ceased from existing.
Before you start wondering should using steal skill be easier or harder you should think about what's the point of stealing in first place.
If I remember correctly from my thief build, around 180% in stealing makes you quite good, over 220 it's really good.
I'm over 250 now with my build and don't see much changes with around 220.
Thief builds are a way to support your faction with items and caps to get a base, buy equipment and resources, mercs, etc.
It's a very useful and fun way to do so.
The point of stealing is to get stuff and caps and to have fun.
Only real problem with stealing is the whining of the victims.
Not suggesting you are, but in my experience the biggest whiners are other thieves, pk's and people acting like assholes.
Descent people only seem to warn others for thieves and shoot them when they're unprotected.
Off course there are exceptions.
I think the problem here is the similar like in other skills. Players push their characters up to 300% and don't have much points left for other skills, which leads to a "thief powerbuild", you cant do anything other then stealing. Cap the skill limit at 200% at maximum. Then, there'd be a few points left, to invest in some basic gun skills etc. Otherwise, everyone pulling every single skillpoint into one none- combat skill and then whining that levelling is too hard/thiefes only can do one thing proper... ::)
Well.
It will only lead to a different powerbuild, the "sneaking thief" which still can do not much more than stealing.
Personally I love how hard it is to level a thief with no combat skill.
Mine leveled pretty nicely due to some points in FA (which is a nice skill to combine with FA as people might have seen you heal others ;D).
As I said somewhere earlier in this reply, the only thing that needs to be dealt with is thieves harassing the same player over and over till they leave the map or till the thief gets killed.
Some kind of increased cooldown timer for thieves who steal from the same player 3 times or more in a row needs to be implemented.
To make it easy, no difference between npc and pc in this case.
I'm open for any other suggestion that stops thieves from following players all over the map, even though they know the player is on to them.
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Ideally, for trades I like to meet in unpopulated cities in discreet location I would do dealings in New Reno all day, but most traders are scared to come and meet, like honestly if you are not sure of a trader, bring along some hired muscle.
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Ideally, for trades I like to meet in unpopulated cities in discreet location I would do dealings in New Reno all day, but most traders are scared to come and meet, like honestly if you are not sure of a trader, bring along some hired muscle.
Setting up trades through the forums is saver than doing it in game.
If people see an unreliable person offering trades, they can warn other players about it.
In game that's not always possible.
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I think the problem here is the similar like in other skills. Players push their characters up to 300% and don't have much points left for other skills, which leads to a "thief powerbuild", you cant do anything other then stealing.
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6812/steal.png)
Its my character. As you can seem I have a good energy weapons skill, steal, and medicine skills. Actuall I am the retired thief, becouse crafting medicines is more profitable.
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An example of autopush:
Guy1 walks into store, sees Guy2 standing next to merchant obviously not buying anything so he tags Guy2 as a thief. Guy2 can't steal from Guy1 because he automatically shoves him away.
Another example of autopush:
You are a smart thief and waited outside the store, you see that Guy2 has been tagged with autopush, you laugh and use steal on Guy1 in front of everybody and get away. It worked! But it probably won't work a second time.
Now sign on to your other account and collect the items you stole! Yay 100% profit still safe from the scary steal nerf!
You're suggesting thieving gets nerved, implying the steal skill gets nerved.
It's hard the way it is, try for yourself to find out.
Which is what I did.
So did I, it was really boring and just not for me. I made about 1400 caps in 2 hours then never played as a thief again.
I'm open for any other suggestion that stops thieves from following players all over the map, even though they know the player is on to them.
Autopush! you can only tag one thief at a time, like following. I don't give a shit about the 5 low level thieves at NCR bazaar, it's fun to shoot them. But when a level 21 thief shows up, steals from everybody and even steals all my bait it gets annoying.
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An example of autopush:
Guy1 walks into store, sees Guy2 standing next to merchant obviously not buying anything so he tags Guy2 as a thief. Guy2 can't steal from Guy1 because he automatically shoves him away.
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Autopush! you can only tag one thief at a time, like following. I don't give a shit about the 5 low level thieves at NCR bazaar, it's fun to shoot them. But when a level 21 thief shows up, steals from everybody and even steals all my bait it gets annoying.
How do you know that guy isn't buying anything?
you don't, at most you can guess.
Autopush sounds nice as long as it's limited to 1 thief.
Even level 21 thieves fail.
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Shopowners: "GET OUT OF MY STORE, THIEF!" in big red writing would be awesome, why should the thief be allowed to hang around shops freely while other people have to wait? Surely the shopowner must get annoyed that his clients are being scared away or robbed by all the loiterers in his store.
i agree whit this 1ideea, if i see a guy stoling from 1 of my customers, i whoud ban him from my shop
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i agree whit this 1ideea, if i see a guy stoling from 1 of my customers, i whoud ban him from my shop
As said before, that thief might be 1 of the most loyal traders and might actually be a much better customer.
I have a thief account, but I also use it to trade a lot too.
Not being able to do that, would make thief buils a lot less useful.
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i agree whit this 1ideea, if i see a guy stoling from 1 of my customers, i whoud ban him from my shop
Me too. Theft is nerfed wrong. Random respawn should be returned back to town spawning and maybe disabled for town during TC. The thieves should be somehow colorized/marked. Using optional name colorizing is not a solution for everyone. Name colorizing should work differently, marking someone as a thief option would be good (after getting 50-100 marks everyone would see the specific color) or shouting yes, that would be good. Im all for non-griefing game
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Me too. Theft is nerfed wrong. Random respawn should be returned back to town spawning and maybe disabled for town during TC. The thieves should be somehow colorized/marked. Using optional name colorizing is not a solution for everyone. Name colorizing should work differently, marking someone as a thief option would be good (after getting 50-100 marks everyone would see the specific color) or shouting yes, that would be good. Im all for non-griefing game
Random spawning should be 100% random.
I regularly respawn at the same spawn 2 sometimes 3 times in a row.
For instance if I respawn near SF and I want to go to SF, I might end up shot in an encounter.
When I respawn, it's in the respawn area near SF again.
Name colorizing is up to players themselves.
You might tag people for a completely different reason than I do.
If you want to share tagged people, use namecolorizing.txt.
We all have people tagged as friends who are tagged as enemy by others.
Also a suggestion to share such things (combined with reputation I think) was already rejected as it's open for abuse.
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The man above speaks the truth, which shouldn't be bewilderment to anyone as he is a man of true wisdom and consideration. One doesn't need any other skill at 300% to be successful as far as I know. Thieves on the other hand must max their beloved skill and still are about to fail sooner or later.
As for the human man person who posted about losing nothing: You silly goose, you. If a thief steals from a crafter or a warrior class person they only can loose their time. That is all. A crafter will craft new items, the warrior of great strength and skill will acquire another weapon of kill and destruction, the thief will have to regenerate self and try to steal another item. We are all meant to do our job. That's it. Everyone who disagrees with it is a crying manchild or a real underage of no world understanding. Thank you.
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Thievery should be about sneaking and trying to avoid attention. Running away from thieves in town is a joke.
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Too much assassin's creed polish boy. Pickpocketters usually work in subway and crowded towns. The more people the better
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Ok polish girl, you are right. Its ok that a thief with a nickname "im gonna steal from you" can come to my character, shout "im stealing now!", take my stuff and go away with a smile:) You convinced me.
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As for a polish man person you ought to know better than any other person in the world that this happens erryday. Although the thief must have enough points in STR or CHA high enough to come in party of three or more. They don't sneak, they don't hide. They demand your gold polesman.
kind of
I may tell you I'm a thief and still use the moment when you don't know I'm stealing and take your items.
Each and every person should be able to tag one player for 10 minutes. This players steal skill ought to be decreased by PE*X - which means I'm having an eye on someone.
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Yeah. But this is fonline what we are talking about. And we got here "stealing" skill. And please stop using "real life" arguments.
moderator:I don't understand reason why my previous post was moved to junk.
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Nyan are you honestly telling that a real pickpocketer just comes next to his victim, punches his fist in their pockets and grabs what he wants without any attempt to cover it up?
Stealing should exactly be like Rejfyl described.
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I was referring to bullying in poland, I wasn't serious about it. But as I once have written - the more people out there the easier the steal in real life and in game. If there are people everywhere its harder to be cautious about everyone. The second thing that R -thieves un-anonimity- mentioned cannot be done right without forced roleplaying and no-animation steals. People talk crap and are not punished about it, like talking in own languages about who to kill next so that the rest of the gang takes all the items after guards react, why can't thieves troll or tell stuff while everyone else does or is like 'wts hrifle 50% 9k' When I hear stuff like that I want to shoot people in the face. The rob them. Then shoot them with their own looted guns again. On roleplay servers fools screaming that they are thieves or anything else could be voted to be watched by guards for a while with more caution OR even kicked out of town for a while.They would have to sneak in somehow and be ninja assassin thieves again. To start the revolution in any branch of fonline other than killing each other we need to kick out the pvp kids.
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Thieves.
A pain in the arse, ain't them?
But me, meselves, was once a charming thief. It really helped me out, dawg. When my friggin' awesome speech skill was obscurely made something different from bartering and I was still too shy to solve all my problems with a gun, I stole. It is a bad thing, in general, stealing. So I stole mostly from the people that I knew were shit. Those damn Duntons and that evil, cynical Tubby. When I was too hungy I stole from those lovely blokes from Vault City, I repaid the favor by taking the green glow from their tea. Stealing used to be very useful and not so terribly complicated to do. I did save my game a lot, but in real life it's not so hard to steal from anyone.
So now thieves are a dying class with no benefits besides some nifty skill rate which don't work most of the time and they're cast away. There should be more places and opportunities to steal, set aside the market. Public spaces are good for non-amateurish pickpockets. But in the comfort of the slums of Reno, who's gonna care? There should be more areas without any surveillance, where the crowds might help you escape. The skill's effectivity rate should be increased and people should fear unguarded parts of the town not because of an absurd PK sniping in the middle of a crowd, but because of all those other "friendly" players passing by, real close.
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As for a polish man person you ought to know better than any other person in the world that this happens erryday. Although the thief must have enough points in STR or CHA high enough to come in party of three or more. They don't sneak, they don't hide. They demand your gold polesman.
Thats called an assault, not just theft ;)
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Listen up kids! Few towns will have the thieves guilds. Once you join the guild and are in town, a kid might walk past you and tell you the name of a player and the item he is carrying. Like 'Some say that Skejwen is in town and has this shiny little Desert Eagle of his. Boss would LOVE to have it.' he whispers and then walks away. Now you need to somehow talk with the player to distract his attention and then steal the item. Only this one. When you bring it to the boss or one of his agents you get a little exp and some caps. This absolutely need NO STEALING ANIMATION. And is awesome, right? If the person leaves the town, the quest is available for like 15 more minutes or you can abort it yourself.
Now the second thing so that noone actually knows you are a thief the thieves npcs would disguise them somehow so that only guild members will know who is who - you might speak with the trader and he is a member of the guild for this moment, those npcs would be highlighted somehow. We can also have some kind of accusation system like in Mafia game. If one is flagged as thief and people tell the cops that he is a thief he will be banned from town for an hour or so. If he isn't the accusers are banned. The thief may return after the hour but will he risk another hour of ban?
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Listen up kids! Few towns will have the thieves guilds. Once you join the guild and are in town, a kid might walk past you and tell you the name of a player and the item he is carrying. Like 'Some say that Skejwen is in town and has this shiny little Desert Eagle of his. Boss would LOVE to have it.' he whispers and then walks away. Now you need to somehow talk with the player to distract his attention and then steal the item. Only this one. When you bring it to the boss or one of his agents you get a little exp and some caps. This absolutely need NO STEALING ANIMATION. And is awesome, right? If the person leaves the town, the quest is available for like 15 more minutes or you can abort it yourself.
It's awesome, indeed. :D
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Listen up kids! Few towns will have the thieves guilds. Once you join the guild and are in town, a kid might walk past you and tell you the name of a player and the item he is carrying. Like 'Some say that Skejwen is in town and has this shiny little Desert Eagle of his. Boss would LOVE to have it.' he whispers and then walks away. Now you need to somehow talk with the player to distract his attention and then steal the item. Only this one. When you bring it to the boss or one of his agents you get a little exp and some caps. This absolutely need NO STEALING ANIMATION. And is awesome, right? If the person leaves the town, the quest is available for like 15 more minutes or you can abort it yourself.
Now the second thing so that noone actually knows you are a thief the thieves npcs would disguise them somehow so that only guild members will know who is who - you might speak with the trader and he is a member of the guild for this moment, those npcs would be highlighted somehow. We can also have some kind of accusation system like in Mafia game. If one is flagged as thief and people tell the cops that he is a thief he will be banned from town for an hour or so. If he isn't the accusers are banned. The thief may return after the hour but will he risk another hour of ban?
All the same what's the background story. What matters most is HOW the stealing process is calculated to success or failure. Too much passive factors like skill vs skill make it repulsive in terms of good game mechanics. If it's more about player's cleverness versus another player's it's more fascinating. Higher skillpoint investments in thievery skill should just determine what sort of perks you get and how high Thief profesion you can reach.
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Dear devs, reduce the stealing cooldown to 20 seconds.
Your Nyan.
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@Nyan:
If we are using real life arguments then I think you could even get into jail if you would keep touching someone like thieves do in FOnline. I don't think in 'real life' you need to keep running from someone that is huging you infront of police officer even if you are screaming for help :)
Also what you said about big strong guys - it's already happening in north towns (but still it's faster/easier to kill someone that 'persuade' to give away his goods).
I totally agree with rejfyl and avv arguments in this matter.
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In this thread we tried to get rid of scum called thieves, but Nyan started distracting everyone so watch your pockets.
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O freakin' K! Time for some golden ideas.
Remove the skill cooldown. Create personal cooldowns based on players PE. When caught, victims cooldown is triggered so that she/he is totally aware of the fact that there is a thief scum somewhere around and is watching his back carefully. When any thief tries to steal from a person with this thing ON she/he automatically says something like 'Keep your sexy underage pretty female hands off my precious items you thief scum person Nyan!' and the skill is canceled, also... - That's the first part. It will hopefully protect people from being spammed with steal attempts and hopefully thieves will try to steal just few items in order not to get caught. There will be no need to run all the time while being in a city. The cooldown might be something like PE minutes.
... also if there is a guard within 15 hexes he reacts and starts walking forward the thief. There will be no shooting for anyone. If the guard catches the thief, all of her/his items are taken OR she/he must pay XXX and then goes to jail for few hours. This is a second idea. I guess that people in command of guarded towns are civilized enough to deal with thievery in a non violent way. Thieves can also escape after the guards try to catch them but then they must wait jailtime/4 amount of time or the guards will still be on them. Second idea. Comment them separately.
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how come noone comments those marvelous ideas D:
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guards should kill thiefs when they get caught period other than that i think its good
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killing is ghey, we need more roleplaying and less slaughter period
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killing is ghey, we need more roleplaying and less slaughter period
I agree, I think we should be able to tie thieves up when they are unconscious, and then hang them on the gallows.
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Yeah, public executions of thieves would be nice.
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killing is ghey, we need more roleplaying and less slaughter period
ur right... watching ur char in prison for a period of time/and relogin to another char is much more manly
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Implying gay people cannot be manly. Killing and then fast respawn doesn't teach anyone anything. Jail does. You guys would just blow everything up, my fallout wasn't about blowing everything up.
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Implying gay people cannot be manly. Killing and then fast respawn doesn't teach anyone anything. Jail does. You guys would just blow everything up, my fallout wasn't about blowing everything up.
It's almost like I'm on 4chan.
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It's almost like you made a post that has a meaning. Eighteen others are probably the same.
Now seriously, I demand a developer to answer me this question, why there is still a steal animation? You guys don't know how to disable it or just think that it is cool?
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It's almost like you made a post that has a meaning. Eighteen others are probably the same.
Now seriously, I demand a developer to answer me this question, why there is still a steal animation? You guys don't know how to disable it or just think that it is cool?
Maybe because they want to have the animation still? Everyone hates thieves...nobody wants them,we all hate them,and we have no mercy for them when we kill them for stealing our shit.
Steal,in my opinion,is an annoying skill.I hate it when everytime I'm trying to sell shit,I have a bluesuit following me till I start trading with a merchant.I have enough sense to go to the Hub and avoid the cluster of thieves in NCR,but they are everywhere no matter where you go.Nerf steal to hell for all I care.
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why there is still a steal animation?
Oh cool, so any bluesuit don't even need to use repair/science skill to troll someone with items? Just stand at the back? It'll only make paranoiac from everyone who came to NCR and has anything at inventory (except for activated dynamite). Also if there will be no animation it means you can use steal over and over, I mean even if there's a cooldown you'll simply follow that person everytime without delay always will be near him and he don't know you're stealing or not.
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Disabling animation is a good idea. But players should also have possibility to defend from thieves like tagging them. So if you will know that someone is a thief you can protect yourself. This is how steals should work imo. If his steal attempt was succesfull then player shouldnt noticed it.
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I think that npcs should have recharging money in there inventory what cant be killed and looted and that gives exp so there is a less reason to wait around ncr
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@rejfyl
read my idea from the bottom of the page
@brad smalls
been there done that, it ended in exploting back then. Also I as a thief never steal for money. I do it because a) it's the most interesting thing this game provides b) I love when people like Pluto rage, makes me moist
@everyone else
deal with it kids
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@rejfyl
read my idea from the bottom of the page
@brad smalls
been there done that, it ended in exploting back then. Also I as a thief never steal for money. I do it because a) it's the most interesting thing this game provides b) I love when people like Pluto rage, makes me moist
@everyone else
deal with it kids
No,you deal with it.Enjoy your shitty skill while I laugh off how terrible your trolling is.
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for a 12 years old,
Oh look, a 12 years old.
Need writers, kids?
Yeah kido
a crying manchild
deal with it kids
It's going to be in the same category as "Wasteland is Harsh" and "Soon".
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A 16-year-old calls everyone around kids ;) Funny. Reminds me of someone...
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Either you come back to the topic or another one gets junklocked.
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Alright let's try to come up with something here. We can all agree that succesful thievery cannot be most dependent on steal%. This will just lead to frustration of victims and endless cycle of nerf'n'buff.
We need more factors to be taken into account and be utilized by players. These would be (I took them from previous suggestions, don't be offended)
Darkness
Target's line of sight (better chances from behind)
Ammount of people at the crimescene
Tagging thieves or somehow paying more attention on certain people
But even then the little something is missing. It's about the final moment when you either feel someone lifting your pockets or don't. It can't be skill% roll vs perception because that will just encourage maxing steal and low cha players getting mad.
Okay I though about it for a while here it is: to succesfully steal something a thief has to remain certain ammount of time beyond his targets line of sight while observing the victim. After that his "intel bar" filled, he knows what to steal and he gets to advance towards his victim while still unnoticed, advance right behind him and then he can steal stuff.
Whether you're noticed by other people around is dependent on their ammount, lines of sight and darkness.
It's purely dependent on player's self awerness. If you're dumb and don't look around frequently, there is a chance that someone lifts you pockets.
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Ammount of people at the crimescene
I don't want to spot a thief when he is stealing something, because we're working together, should I look at opposite direction everytime if thieves working together/have someone to hold thier items?
If you say about party tagging, then thief can tag thier victim.
So it won't work until party-system will be changed like Izual suggested at one old thread.
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I don't want to spot a thief when he is stealing something, because we're working together, should I look at opposite direction everytime if thieves working together/have someone to hold thier items?
If you say about party tagging, then thief can tag thier victim.
So it won't work until party-system will be changed like Izual suggested at one old thread.
I kinda meant that more people means less chances to get caught because guards have more targets to watch.
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I kinda meant that more people means less chances to get caught because guards have more targets to watch.
Oh, ok, then how a thief can steal something from a guy, when 5 his friends looking at this thief? ^_^
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Oh, ok, then how a thief can steal something from a guy, when 5 his friends looking at this thief? ^_^
It would only concern npc guards mostly because they announce the thief publicly once they see him. The five friends are also looking at many other things unless they tagged the thief. But honestly I've got not good solution how bystanders would spot stealing and what should happen when they do.
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I like a lot of suggestions in this thread. If some of the 'nerfing' ones were implemented it would probably even be acceptable to remove the animation for successful steal attempts like Nyan wants.
It's about the final moment when you either feel someone lifting your pockets or don't.
What about a check against the victims free carry weight? If they have a >50% full backpack then they don't get this bonus, but if they have 99% empty backpack they get a 49% bonus against a steal attempt. It was suggested before and it would definitely factor into this.
About other players seeing thieves, maybe if they have more than -200 town reputation they could report it to a guard. I don't know how you could let them know they saw it though, probably just a message in the messagebox.
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What about a check against the victims free carry weight? If they have a >50% full backpack then they don't get this bonus, but if they have 99% empty backpack they get a 49% bonus against a steal attempt. It was suggested before and it would definitely factor into this.
Problem with all kinds of checks is that you can still fail due to randomness even if you do everything right. But it could be related to carry weight, there just had to be a way to see whether they carry lots of stuff or not. Best system comes out from the one which has everything to do with player vs player mindgames, not stat vs stat rolls.
About other players seeing thieves, maybe if they have more than -200 town reputation they could report it to a guard. I don't know how you could let them know they saw it though, probably just a message in the messagebox
Yeah reputation could have something to do with the reporting the crime. I was also thinking that every bystander could have an intenser field of concentration right in front of them. It could be about 3-5 squares long. If a thief and his victim happen to be at this field when the crime occurs, the bystander sees it. So it would be up to the thief to find out whether many bystanders see the crime.
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autopush will never happen and guards to kill thieves, just not in NCR. Go hang out in vault city.
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Autopush is by far the best suggestion in this thread.
I would also like to see an additional timeout of 5 minutes for stealing from the same person after exiting the inventory window.
Most of the other suggestions are crap to nerf stealing even more.
You may hate thieves, play 1 for a while before you start talking about nerving it.
As said before, even level 21 thieves with 300 skill will fail.
Leveling is painfully slow, you'll die a lot, wonder around the map a lot, etc.
It's probably 1 of the hardest builds to level.
It's good as it is.
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You may hate thieves, play 1 for a while before you start talking about nerving it.
Nothing needs nerfing or buffing, but changing so that steal is less dependent on passive factors and more dependent on player's personal cleverness. It's actually buff because player's cleverness holds no limits so your thieving skills can be infinitely good. However if you're bad player it may seem like a nerf.
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Nothing needs nerfing or buffing, but changing so that steal is less dependent on passive factors and more dependent on player's personal cleverness. It's actually buff because player's cleverness holds no limits so your thieving skills can be infinitely good. However if you're bad player it may seem like a nerf.
Personal cleverness?
Like what?
Line of sight of the victim?
You're not very clear.
Stealing is fine as it is.
Today I had 4 or 5 fails in about 15 attempts while my skill is above 250.
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Personal cleverness?
Like what?
Line of sight of the victim?
You're not very clear.
It's not my fault the game lacks strategic elements to utilize. Line of sight is one element. Others are whether you think your victim knows you and is he a nub or not. Pretty much rest is dependent on how stationary your victim is and how much you got invested in your steal skill. Not very interesting or challenging. And most of the time stealing just goes like this: you walk next to someone and activate the skill on his char.
When it comes to pvp, was it stealing or fighting the key factor must always be players' minds. Chess is good example of good pvp. No random factors, just your and your enemy's mind. Throwing dice is bad pvp because it's reliant on luck. And if someone has balanced dices (steal 300) it's just not interesting at all.
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Line of sight combined with detection rate could be an option.
Knowing is tagging red.
Stationary is already included, the attempt fails if your victim moves to another hex.
Pick pocketing has mostly to do with skill, the higher the skill the more likely you are to succeed.
There's always an element of luck involved as your victim might move, attempt to get something out of that pocket, etc.
As I said before, even with high steal skill you will regularly fail.
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AutoPush seems like a good idea and a stealing player reaching into your paints and any neerby NPC yelling Playername is stealing from other Playername Am i right?
Oh and first post reply WOOT!
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AutoPush seems like a good idea and a stealing player reaching into your paints and any neerby NPC yelling Playername is stealing from other Playername Am i right?
Oh and first post reply WOOT!
Guards already say that.
Welcome aboard.
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Guards already say that.
Welcome aboard.
Not all the time, half the time they just ignore it even if its a fail... Unless its a bug.
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Ok, what about something like that:
Stealing animation disabled. Added possibility to temporary mark someone as a thief.
Scene1:
Thief is trying to steal something from player. He was succesful. No stealing animation, so victim realised that was robbed few seconds later. He don't know who was a thief.
Scene2:
Same like above but this time player is sure that there was only 1 player standing near to him so he know who is a thief but he cant do nothing about it at this time. But he know that he have to watch out that thief next time he meet him. So we move to ->
Scene3: Thief is trying to steal from his victim. He done this before, and he dont hide what he is planning to do. This time our clever player uses special tagging on that thief. We can imagine that as watching somebody. Thief is trying to steal something, but this time there is 100% chance that he will be cought.
Of course there are more scenarios, but i think it would work fine. And it will force some thieves to hide their plans or try to steal in crowdy area. What do you think about that?
(sorry for my english :-) )
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Not all the time, half the time they just ignore it even if its a fail... Unless its a bug.
There are 3 options when failing:
1. Guards notice it and say player name is interested in player name's belongings
2. Closest guard says you failed miserably
3. Victim gets a red line saying someone failed stealing from you (not mentioning a name)
There's also a situation where the thief gets noticed without anyone saying it, for instance stealing from an npc, but does lose protection.
This is only visible by keeping an eye on your character sheet.
Ok, what about something like that:
Stealing animation disabled. Added possibility to temporary mark someone as a thief.
Scene1:
Thief is trying to steal something from player. He was succesful. No stealing animation, so victim realised that was robbed few seconds later. He don't know who was a thief.
Scene2:
Same like above but this time player is sure that there was only 1 player standing near to him so he know who is a thief but he cant do nothing about it at this time. But he know that he have to watch out that thief next time he meet him. So we move to ->
Scene3: Thief is trying to steal from his victim. He done this before, and he dont hide what he is planning to do. This time our clever player uses special tagging on that thief. We can imagine that as watching somebody. Thief is trying to steal something, but this time there is 100% chance that he will be cought.
Of course there are more scenarios, but i think it would work fine. And it will force some thieves to hide their plans or try to steal in crowdy area. What do you think about that?
(sorry for my english :-) )
Scene 2/3:
Bad idea.
You don't have 100% on hitting someone, 100% on succesful stealing, 100% succes rate of evading encounters, etc.
100% chance to get caught for a thief is bull.
This will result in multiple thief accounts as thieves at some point will be marked too much.
Besides, I can't tag people as PK, I can't tag them as tent follower, I can't tag them for acting like complete assholes.
Why should thieves be different?
IMO thieving is fine the way it works, with 1 exception:
Thieving and FA animation are the same which makes it possible to keep harassing the same player over and over without knowing if it's a thieving attempt or FA.
There are a few solutions to this, best are a thieving cooldown of a 3 minutes or no FA animation when using FA on a person with full hp.
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IMO thieving is fine the way it works, with 1 exception:
Thieving and FA animation are the same which makes it possible to keep harassing the same player over and over without knowing if it's a thieving attempt or FA.
There are a few solutions to this, best are a thieving cooldown of a 3 minutes or no FA animation when using FA on a person with full hp.
Not 3 minutes. That would make thieves almost useless, and it should still be a game mechanic.
And they are using Science on you to check to see if you are paying attention, and then they use Steal on you :P
How about this: The steal animation could be (assuming we aren't going into 3d models "soon") the "picking something up" animation as an alternative, and if 3d is implemented, then it could be a one-handed animation instead of the normal two-handed ones.
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Scene 2/3:
Bad idea.
You don't have 100% on hitting someone, 100% on succesful stealing, 100% succes rate of evading encounters, etc.
100% chance to get caught for a thief is bull.
This will result in multiple thief accounts as thieves at some point will be marked too much.
Besides, I can't tag people as PK, I can't tag them as tent follower, I can't tag them for acting like complete assholes.
Why should thieves be different?
IMO thieving is fine the way it works, with 1 exception:
Thieving and FA animation are the same which makes it possible to keep harassing the same player over and over without knowing if it's a thieving attempt or FA.
There are a few solutions to this, best are a thieving cooldown of a 3 minutes or no FA animation when using FA on a person with full hp.
I would agree with you if this new tagging would be last forever (after some time character is marked by everyone, so player has to make another alt), but as i wrote above it would be a temporary marking. You could mark only 1 or 3 players at once and it will stay for, lets say 15min. I don't know if its the best solution for this problem. I was just thinking about how to change current situation. Now you have to run away from thief, because you know who is a thief. On the otherhand thief has no chance to hide his plans, so its very easy to tell who is a thief.
How about this: The steal animation could be (assuming we aren't going into 3d models "soon") the "picking something up" animation as an alternative, and if 3d is implemented, then it could be a one-handed animation instead of the normal two-handed ones.
In my opinion succesful stealing means that you get the item and nobody noticed it. So i would turn off animation.
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Not 3 minutes. That would make thieves almost useless, and it should still be a game mechanic.
And they are using Science on you to check to see if you are paying attention, and then they use Steal on you :P
How about this: The steal animation could be (assuming we aren't going into 3d models "soon") the "picking something up" animation as an alternative, and if 3d is implemented, then it could be a one-handed animation instead of the normal two-handed ones.
My error.
I meant a 3 minute cooldown to steal from that same person again while keeping the 30 seconds cooldown to steal from someone else.
I would agree with you if this new tagging would be last forever (after some time character is marked by everyone, so player has to make another alt), but as i wrote above it would be a temporary marking. You could mark only 1 or 3 players at once and it will stay for, lets say 15min. I don't know if its the best solution for this problem. I was just thinking about how to change current situation. Now you have to run away from thief, because you know who is a thief. On the otherhand thief has no chance to hide his plans, so its very easy to tell who is a thief.
In my opinion succesful stealing means that you get the item and nobody noticed it. So i would turn off animation.
Still marking someone as thief means he'll get caught when trying to steal from you is insane.
Better way than to mark someone as thief (only 1 mark possible) which makes it impossible for that thief to steal from you (see autopush suggestion).
The mark should disappear after and x amount of time or when leaving the map before that timer runs out.
Succesful stealing would indeed mean no stealing animation.
Also turning towards your victim should be disabled when you have the pick pocket perk (level 15).
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Still marking someone as thief means he'll get caught when trying to steal from you is insane.
How come? You set him a trap and he falls in it. It's the same thing if you know someone is a thief, wait for him to come near you, put his hand in your pocket and then you grab his wrist it and slice his throat.
What needs to be done is to give thieves more chances to run away once they are caught. Making a plan b for failed attempts should always be the option for skilled thieves. Right now there's just 2 options: succeed or die.
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How come? You set him a trap and he falls in it. It's the same thing if you know someone is a thief, wait for him to come near you, put his hand in your pocket and then you grab his wrist it and slice his throat.
What needs to be done is to give thieves more chances to run away once they are caught. Making a plan b for failed attempts should always be the option for skilled thieves. Right now there's just 2 options: succeed or die.
How would you know he's a thief if he never failed to steal from you before?
You don't.
Also the thief might just use something to draw your attention away and than steal from you.
You don't have eyes in your back now do you?
According to the wiki all that's taken into consideration now are pick pocket perk, steal skill and perception of the victim.
What should be added is agility, luck and intelligence and perhaps sneak from the thief's side and luck and intelligence from the victim's side.
Although I still believe it's fine the way it is now as high skilled thieves still fail regularly.
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How would you know he's a thief if he never failed to steal from you before?
You don't.
Also the thief might just use something to draw your attention away and than steal from you.
You don't have eyes in your back now do you?
Gut feeling. Experienced wastelander might recognize a thief just by looking at him. Experienced wastelander might also recognize the thief's confusing tricks.
According to the wiki all that's taken into consideration now are pick pocket perk, steal skill and perception of the victim.
What should be added is agility, luck and intelligence and perhaps sneak from the thief's side and luck and intelligence from the victim's side.
Although I still believe it's fine the way it is now as high skilled thieves still fail regularly.
The more rolls you add, the less control the players have and the worse it's going to get. Rolls work against npcs because they cannot be fooled like players.
It doesn't matter how high ones steal% is. It doesn't give players the right to succeed more often against other players. Investing points in steal skill doesn't take any knowledge, experience or personal cleverness so they don't deserve any major outcome from it either.
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Thief is more than char with enoufh steal skill. He needs to combine other skill and player skill to succeed. But he needs more opportunities, than he have now:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8436.0 This could be a great places for steal.
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How would you know he's a thief if he never failed to steal from you before?
You don't.
Also the thief might just use something to draw your attention away and than steal from you.
You don't have eyes in your back now do you?
Generally you know the thief at the market is the one who is very eager to stand next to you. Alternatively you can just watch for 2 minutes and you'll see them stealing from other people.
As for distractions, you'll have to think of those to stop yourself being tagged as a thief, I can think of several excuses to be standing next to someone right now, I'm sure people will think of more. A guy called Vegeta used a clever one on me a while ago trying to unarmed PK me.
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The more rolls you add, the less control the players have and the worse it's going to get. Rolls work against npcs because they cannot be fooled like players.
It doesn't matter how high ones steal% is. It doesn't give players the right to succeed more often against other players. Investing points in steal skill doesn't take any knowledge, experience or personal cleverness so they don't deserve any major outcome from it either.
Which is why I suggested to use part of the SPECIAL.
Your suggestion about skill percentage having no influence makes no sense.
Why should the hight of steal skill none or almost no influence and weapon skills or outdoor should?
Spending points in steal skill means you spend time to level your character, most likely at least partly by stealing.
You got experience from that, thus higher skill.
Again keep in mind that pure thief characters are hard to level and take quite some time to do so.
Generally you know the thief at the market is the one who is very eager to stand next to you. Alternatively you can just watch for 2 minutes and you'll see them stealing from other people.
As for distractions, you'll have to think of those to stop yourself being tagged as a thief, I can think of several excuses to be standing next to someone right now, I'm sure people will think of more. A guy called Vegeta used a clever one on me a while ago trying to unarmed PK me.
People stand next to you for all kinds of reasons.
Many people just walk next to someone else when they want to trade.
There's no necessity for it, they just do so.
Others like walk into 2 or 3 people having a private conversation to eavesdrop on them.
In this particular case the eavesdropper was the one being stolen from 8)
Keep in mind that with the current animations you can see no difference between someone using FA and someone using steal skill.
People do use FA on others while the patient doesn't ask for it.
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People stand next to you for all kinds of reasons.
Many people just walk next to someone else when they want to trade.
There's no necessity for it, they just do so.
Others like walk into 2 or 3 people having a private conversation to eavesdrop on them.
In this particular case the eavesdropper was the one being stolen from 8)
Keep in mind that with the current animations you can see no difference between someone using FA and someone using steal skill.
People do use FA on others while the patient doesn't ask for it.
Solution: If a stranger stands next to you for no reason you tag them as a thief and push them away.
If I want FA I'll ask for it, if I want to trade I'll ask for it and if somebody eavesdrops on me I'll move conversation to the WM.
My point is:
It isn't hard to spot a thief.
It is in fact easy to spot a thief. Because (see above) it isn't hard to spot a thief.
If you were to assume it was difficult to spot a thief you would be making the wrong assumption.
They don't even have to try and hide their actions. I've seen many people being chased out of town by thieves because they had good items in their inventory, this is wrong... even though it is funny.
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Solution: If a stranger stands next to you for no reason you tag them as a thief and push them away.
If I want FA I'll ask for it, if I want to trade I'll ask for it and if somebody eavesdrops on me I'll move conversation to the WM.
My point is:
It isn't hard to spot a thief.
It is in fact easy to spot a thief. Because (see above) it isn't hard to spot a thief.
If you were to assume it was difficult to spot a thief you would be making the wrong assumption.
They don't even have to try and hide their actions. I've seen many people being chased out of town by thieves because they had good items in their inventory, this is wrong... even though it is funny.
Atm it's not hard to spot thieves due to the animation.
Plenty of people walking around just for fun, killing time or whatever else.
You may tag people standing next to you as a thief for just standing there, most people don't.
They just move away.
Thinking people got chased out of town due to their inventory is another assumption.
I've chased people (thanks to FA and steal animation being the same) around because they're tent followers, pk or just your random every day asshole.
Not because of their inventory.
People make a big deal out of something that's working fine for the most part.
Some minor adjustments are needed, nothing more, nothing less.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c)
this shouldn't happen.
one player prevented from trading by one other player.
Thinking people got chased out of town due to their inventory is another assumption.
I've chased people (thanks to FA and steal animation being the same) around because they're tent followers, pk or just your random every day asshole.
Not because of their inventory.
if I don't have anything in my inventory I don't run from thieves. So I think my assumption was fair.
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Which is why I suggested to use part of the SPECIAL.
Your suggestion about skill percentage having no influence makes no sense.
Why should the hight of steal skill none or almost no influence and weapon skills or outdoor should?
Spending points in steal skill means you spend time to level your character, most likely at least partly by stealing.
You got experience from that, thus higher skill.
Again keep in mind that pure thief characters are hard to level and take quite some time to do so.
Why skill percentage deciding a success is bad? Because it does the job for us players. It's basically the same thing if football players threw dice about who won a match, instead of competing in teamwork and agility.
It doesn't matter if it's special or skill percentage. It's the same concept. You've just invested points somewhere and that's it.
I never said wepons skills or outdoors should influence success. But they do it now which isn't however how it should be.
Levelling and exping doesn't have anything to do with player's cleverness. It takes time but you certainly cannot fail in levelling. You'll level up someday anyway.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c)
this shouldn't happen.
one player prevented from trading by one other player.
if I don't have anything in my inventory I don't run from thieves. So I think my assumption was fair.
That's what I have been saying, there needs to be a solution to this.
Most tent followers have ammo and stims or something like that in their inventory.
If you don't have anything in your inventory, thieves won't bother you when they've noticed that.
Why skill percentage deciding a success is bad? Because it does the job for us players. It's basically the same thing if football players threw dice about who won a match, instead of competing in teamwork and agility.
It doesn't matter if it's special or skill percentage. It's the same concept. You've just invested points somewhere and that's it.
I never said wepons skills or outdoors should influence success. But they do it now which isn't however how it should be.
Levelling and exping doesn't have anything to do with player's cleverness. It takes time but you certainly cannot fail in levelling. You'll level up someday anyway.
Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.
And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.
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Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.
Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.
What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.
So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.
Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.
That concept is part of this game.
It's a concept from an old singleplayer where your opponents were npcs.
And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.
What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.
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Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.
What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.
So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.
Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Pickpocket) perk.
Weight could be added.
All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.
I'm all in favour of adding darkness to the mix, but not just for thieving, also for fighting, sneaking (if not already in), etc.
Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.
Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.
What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.
The point is that thieving wokrs fine.
There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).
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Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Pickpocket) perk.
Weight could be added.
First we got to decide how the stealing is going to work by default before thinking about perks.
All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.
I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.
Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.
Could work in synergy with the current group-tagging.
The point is that thieving wokrs fine.
Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.
There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).
And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.
Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.
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I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.
Define shop.
Buster's tent clearly.
Sha Enin's space?
It makes no sense.
Thieves go there were the money is, this means shops.
People want to trade safely?
Go in when it's quiet, avoid NCR, etc.
You might just as well make pk impossible in shops or questing.
Only thing that should change here is some shop owners and some shop/flc guards are stealable.
That's wrong.
It means you can always steal your stuff back if you fail and get killed.
Only thing your suggesting does is getting more people harassed at the NCR bazar, which means less people there.
People move, thieves follow.
Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.
There's overlap between spies, scouts, thieves and assassins, but also some major differences.
A small gunner isn't a bg expert either.
Spies, scouts and assassins wouldn't steal as it means they risk getting caught.
They also come prepared, ready to do their job and get out.
There are a lot of better ways of getting money than just stealing.
My doctor alt for instance can make money a lot more easily than my thief alt.
Especially when the faction is helping with gathering materials.
And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.
Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.
Which is better than the current situation in which tools like FOCD means you have a huge advantage over people who don't use it (like auto aim).
Skills should have a lower max, 300% is bullshit.
Max. it to 200, only allow 1 skill to reach it, 1 at max. 180, 1 at max. 150, 1 or 2 at max. 120, etc.
All skills work simular.
Change all of them or none of them.
Don't change 1, just because you don't like the effects of it.
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Define shop.
Buster's tent clearly.
Sha Enin's space?
A house with shopkeeper and guards. Sha enin is more like a market booth.
Thieves go there were the money is, this means shops.
And merchants try to fend off thieves for harassing their customers. If thieves could just walk in and pickpocket every customer, the shopkeepers would have to resort into serious measures and only let one customer in at a time. So instead of re-mapping every shop it would be easier just not to allow excessive thievery in important places because players get annoyed if they are constantly harassed when trying to perform everyday tasks.
Instead thieves could prey on miners and random bystanders (player and npc alike). We just need more places where players had reasons to stand or spend time. Like casinos and bars. Or fighting pits where players could gamble, watch and fight.
Besides pickpocketing shouldn't be the only way to steal. A "purse grab" method could be fun. It would work so that you run towards or past someone or let him run past you. Then you automatically grab something he has but you also get caught immediately. All there's left to do is to get out of town or hide. If your victim is able to kill you, guards return the item to him and take it from everyone who try to grap it before you. It's just many things are against this, like fast death, overreacting guards, badly working stealth. Not to mention highly abuse potential with other players and dying intentionally.
There's overlap between spies, scouts, thieves and assassins, but also some major differences.
Thieving spy, scout or assasin would be just a dude with various skills where stealing is only one of them.
Assassin would tag have sneak, sg or throwing or melee and steal.
Scout woud tag any weapon skill, steal and outdoorsman.
Spy would tag steal, sneak and traps or speech (James Bond) or science (hacker). And invest in some fighting skills averagely.
But right now there are no use for such builds.
There are a lot of better ways of getting money than just stealing.
My doctor alt for instance can make money a lot more easily than my thief alt.
If stealing was dependent on player's skill, a good thief could make a fortune.
Skills should have a lower max, 300% is bullshit.
Max. it to 200, only allow 1 skill to reach it, 1 at max. 180, 1 at max. 150, 1 or 2 at max. 120, etc.
All skills work simular.
Change all of them or none of them.
Don't change 1, just because you don't like the effects of it.
I didn't really mean to change just steal to 200% and leave others as they are. I simply meant that if other skills are such that player's abilities don't matter, it doesn't mean we can't implement such options for steal. I mean if we always just state "we can't fix this because these are broken too" we get nowhere.
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A house with shopkeeper and guards. Sha enin is more like a market booth.
And merchants try to fend off thieves for harassing their customers. If thieves could just walk in and pickpocket every customer, the shopkeepers would have to resort into serious measures and only let one customer in at a time. So instead of re-mapping every shop it would be easier just not to allow excessive thievery in important places because players get annoyed if they are constantly harassed when trying to perform everyday tasks.
Still debatable.
VC is a guarded city.
So the shops in the guarded (innercity) need to be guarded too?
Also, once again, those thieves might be the merchant's best customers.
My thief account is also my main trading account and I know it's not just me.
Shopkeepers don't mind who they get business from, as long as they're getting it.
People also get harassed when hunting, mining, leveling, traveling, talking, etc.
Again, no need to make an exception for thieving.
Instead thieves could prey on miners and random bystanders (player and npc alike). We just need more places where players had reasons to stand or spend time. Like casinos and bars. Or fighting pits where players could gamble, watch and fight.
People are already complaining about stealing from mining slaves.
If thieves start to prey on miners more, there will be enough complaining to have that limited too.
Thieves are also already stealing from npcs they know might have interesting items.
A few of those npcs are made unstealable like Boyce in Junktown and the iguana seller in The Hub.
(you can still use steal on them, but they can't be reached)
Besides pickpocketing shouldn't be the only way to steal. A "purse grab" method could be fun. It would work so that you run towards or past someone or let him run past you. Then you automatically grab something he has but you also get caught immediately. All there's left to do is to get out of town or hide. If your victim is able to kill you, guards return the item to him and take it from everyone who try to grap it before you. It's just many things are against this, like fast death, overreacting guards, badly working stealth. Not to mention highly abuse potential with other players and dying intentionally.
Purse grabbing, or even better grabbing equiped stuff (because it's in hands) could be fun, but you lose protection immediately.
Bystanders should be able to pick the stolen item up, but if they do, lose protection immediately too.
Something that could be nice when combined with a suicide bombing for instance ...
Thieving spy, scout or assasin would be just a dude with various skills where stealing is only one of them.
Assassin would tag have sneak, sg or throwing or melee and steal.
Scout woud tag any weapon skill, steal and outdoorsman.
Spy would tag steal, sneak and traps or speech (James Bond) or science (hacker). And invest in some fighting skills averagely.
But right now there are no use for such builds.
A scout would more likely invest in stealth or traps than in steal.
3rd tagged skill for a thief would more likely be lockpicking.
If stealing was dependent on player's skill, a good thief could make a fortune.
I didn't really mean to change just steal to 200% and leave others as they are. I simply meant that if other skills are such that player's abilities don't matter, it doesn't mean we can't implement such options for steal. I mean if we always just state "we can't fix this because these are broken too" we get nowhere.
You're wrong.
Like I (and not just me) said before, it's much easier to make money as a doctor.
It won't take long for thieves to become known as thief.
Some people shoot you regardless if you're protected or not.
Others keep a close eye on you and walk away if you come close, etc.
I do mean some and perhaps all skills should be limited to 200%.
That way we will see more general builds and less powerbuilds.
The only skill that slightly matters for stealing is the reaction time of the victim when he's trading.
How fast can you end trading and walk away?