fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on April 16, 2010, 10:01:02 pm
-
This thread is about what direction and basics our pvp system should include. Our pvp lacks style and a mainline that sets global rules for it, instead of that it's shortly delivering damage packages of various sizes upon our enemies.
What I mean with style here is what are principles and basics of pvp combat. You can't start making suggestion about buffing single weapon, skill or perk if the whole system is at weak state. There's no way that we can make a good pvp system by just fixing little things here and there if it doesn't have a some main theme which everything is based on. For example we got those shotgun buff threads. Surely shotguns are weak, but where is it said that all guns must be balanced? There's no mainline where to base our theories, except that fonline is based on fallout. But that can mean lots of things or nothing at all because fallout was singleplayer.
Same goes with Lordus' gun improvement thread (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3692.0). It has good visions but sadly things cannot be changed by posting bigass thread full of details into suggestions forum. What we gotta do is to sit down and start throwing ideas. But not ideas like "we gotta have reactive bulletproof vests and exploding armorpiercing poisonbullets". That's too detailed, they are micro features, we gotta go for macro. Throw ideas like: "It must be harder to hit running target than stationary" or "big guns should mainly act as support because deploying them should take longer".
Think of fallout tactics. It would have pretty good starting point for our pvp. Fallout tactics had the problem that when shit hit the fan in realtime, it was hard to micro your squad. But now that everyone only control one character + some possible mercs, it should be easier to perform tactical actions even under stress.
I've got some ideas of my own, but what do others honestly think? Remember this: because the current system is not valid, lacks style and principles, suggestions like "nerf snipers" are not reasonable.
-
The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p
-
The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p
Snipers will be even worse with stances and more obstacles.
Flexible/Tunnel Rat/Bonus Move/Silent Running
-
Snipers will be even worse with stances and more obstacles.
Flexible/Tunnel Rat/Bonus Move/Silent Running
->
Remember this: because the current system is not valid, lacks style and principles, suggestions like "nerf snipers" are not reasonable.
READ BEFORE YOU POST!
The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p
Well its not about chars only, environment counts here too. But I think things like that could upgrade current rock-paper-scissors PvP into something more like chess.
Anyway I lack something like class system, diversity and combinations here. I'm not saying that you should choose your class at the beginning but you should develop as you play. If you choose some path then you should be able to be different from others, have some unique skills that others who took different paths don't have so you could group up and support each other well. Also 10 BG soldiers should equal to 10 different BG soldiers with their own little differences in builds. No clones but shitload of small choices that push your char just a little higher at the food chain.
I think some really basic stuff require some drastic changes here but it has to be done step by step. So lets start with absolutely elemental stuff - character development. I don't know how you but I'm not satisfied with 7 or 5 choices + X skillpoints to distribute. Imho level cap should be raised BUT amount of skillpoints per level and "perk power" should be nerfed equally to that. So lets say if the level cap is 4x21=84, then with 5 IN we would not get 15 skillpoints per level but 15/4 and same goes for perks. We would not get +5% crit chance, but +1% with possibility to take X ranks etc. Imho 21 levels don't provide enough space for character development.
Also there were some talks about additional abilities for our characters. So we would have SPECIAL, perks, skillpoints and abilities. By ability you should imagine something that makes your character differs from others. Abilities should be main recognition sign when we would talk about classes. Every time you level up you should be able to train and learn new abilities. Starting with some really basic roots like offense, defense, support (we talk about PvP only for now). If you decide to roll offense tree then with every level you will be able to go to an NPC (lets say war veteran or someone like that for low lvl abilities) and get trained. You will decide if you want to learn new abilities or get better with those you already know. Some should be passive (affecting your char nonstop) some should be active (possible to use when player decides to but with some recharge time). So maybe an example:
I want to roll a medic => When I level up I will be able to get some training. I will visit my local doctor and for a fee he will show me some tricks. So I will roll support tree. First ability could be passive upgrade of my FA with 5 ranks = 3/6/9/12/15% bonus. Then when I'm more experienced (=some abilities already trained), I'll be able to choose from more and better abilities etc. So maybe pick something from everything or specialize at certain area of interest and so on.
More info about this at http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3723.15.
These are just mine own visions of FOnline and how I would like it. But even when non of this will come true I will most likely stay and play it and with more game content included more interesting it will get.
-
The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p
Oh yes, when you playing at JA2 1.13 with only 1 merc (from B.S.I. of couse), you'll always find good place like trees or crates or something like that, or else these 7346854 guys will burst you to death. But again... it's more and more becomes FT. Of couse it'll be fun to use vehicles in TC, they will use driver-alt, and other PvP-guys will shoot from the car and it'll be fun, till one guy with bazooka explode thier car, etc. It's all tactical suggestions of couse good for PvP, but.. it requires total and very very hard changes.
I know, you simply want to have a chance to avoid attack when a tree between you and attacker, and this tree is situated atleast in 2 hexes from you and over 4-5 hexes from target, so there's great chance that bullet/ray will hit tree instead of you, regardless % to hit, like "concealement" in NWN(and other D&Ds), when even if you have almost 100% to hit, there's another roll 50% that you'll miss a target.
-
Well its not about chars only, environment counts here too. But I think things like that could upgrade current rock-paper-scissors PvP into something more like chess.
Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.
But again... it's more and more becomes FT. Of couse it'll be fun to use vehicles in TC, they will use driver-alt, and other PvP-guys will shoot from the car and it'll be fun, till one guy with bazooka explode thier car, etc. It's all tactical suggestions of couse good for Pv, but [...]
Well, nobody's talking about implementing anything from Tactics - not only Tactics got characters poses, and I got to say it's not because something isn't in Fallout 2 that it is a bad thing. The game is going to change anyway, with the 3D, and we'll get the possibility to make new poses easily.
but.. it requires total and very very hard changes.
Not really. It's all about : Creating the 3D graphics for the poses, and defining ToHit and Armor Class penalties or bonuses for each pose. That's not a big deal. As far as I can imagine the biggest problem here is that maybe the engine doesn't support it.
Of course all of this is imo and if someone disagrees and has arguments, I'd be happy to hear them.
-
Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.
Because it's Fallout... it's RPG in post-apocalyptic world, where you kill monster on your path with your gun, insead of sword and fireballs, etc.
And you want to make FT from fallout.
Ehh, I know, you don't even read my posts seriously, because you can't understand what I want to say, but whatever.
-
I posted before reading your post, look, I edited now :P
Besides, I don't really understand all the "Fallout Tactics isn't Fallout 2" arguments. I mean, it's just about adding damn characters posing to this game. The ability to sit or to get cover. Is that awful ? Is that soo-fallout-tacticsish ?
-
Anyway I lack something like class system, diversity and combinations here. I'm not saying that you should choose your class at the beginning but you should develop as you play.
That's one way to solve it, it would bring more clarity and meaning for people's lives. Some might feel it more restricting.
Other way is that we make so balanced pvp system that anyone with some weapon skills and knowledge with pvp can just grab an assault rifle and pose a significant threat to anyone.
Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.
Well fotactics was basically like chess. I know a dude is hiding behind sandbags. My teammate sets himself in overwatch mode and set his "field of view" over the sandbags. My character starts to crawl/duckwalk towards the sandbags. If the dude behind the sandbags decides to raise, he gets nailed by my overwatching teammate. If he just lies there, he gets naded by me when I get close enough. That's a victory by strategy and teamwork, not because someone rolled higher on crit table.
-
I posted before reading your post, look, I edited now :P
Besides, I don't really understand all the "Fallout Tactics isn't Fallout 2" arguments. I mean, it's just about adding damn characters posing to this game. The ability to sit or to get cover. Is that awful ? Is that soo-fallout-tacticsish ?
This is stupid, when you encounter pack of raiders/mobsters in urban location, and when you, who played fallout, instead of starting to shot-off thier hands, etc. start to run to closes wall/barrel/junk pile, etc. for cover and they (mobster/gangster) laying on ground and there starting stupid commandos shooting at each other like in JA2, that's really really stupid for such game, but.. it's, of couse, only my opinion.
That's good for TC, because it'll be more various, alot possibilities, etc. But.. it's not falloutish, and FT was just an example, because FT isn't RPG, what we're playing, it's strategy, which simply made by fallout-makers.
-
because FT isn't RPG, what we're playing, it's strategy, which simply made by fallout-makers.
Yes, FoT is a T-RPG, so basically we talk about strategy or tactics. If you're telling me that tactics are bad in this game, and especially in PvP, well, it's your right to disagree with me ! But again, I think improving fights wouldn't really be an issue atm.
-
JA2 1.13
+1 for taste. The combat system in JA2 had a lot of neat quirks to it, like during nighttime when your fov is SEVERELY reduced unless you're wearing goggles, and suppressive burst fire which forces you to duck your head and use action points. Items like binoculars and scopes could vastly increase your vision range to scout out the enemy before they see you, you can hop on rooftops to snipe, etc.
Although JA2 is a completely turn-based game (one of the best, I might add), some of its principles on combat and cover mechanics should be given a look if Fonline is headed in this direction.
-
Quick question why haven't you used the fallout tactics models for the 3d stuff? It seems the FoT aspects such as races/customisation could be incorporated into Fonline.
-
Because FoT graphics are just weird ! =o
-
FoT graphics are 2d sprites. Also they are in different angles than in Fo1/Fo2.
-
...
Yeah, a character progress should consist of many little steps, not just 7/5 giant leaps forward and should last for much longer, offering a lot of possible combat specialisations - that's what I think as well :P.
-
->
READ BEFORE YOU POST!
I did not mean what you thought I meant.
Perhaps you should read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).
-
Yeah, a character progress should consist of many little steps, not just 7/5 giant leaps forward and should last for much longer, offering a lot of possible combat specialisations - that's what I think as well :P.
So would these special abilities be like something beyond SPECIAL or just additional no-level related perks? Like vault city phoenix implants?
However you must remember that fonline is not only about pvp, players must be allowed to participate various activities with single char. The combat system itself should offer plently of tactical options so that to participate in pvp an adventurer character wouldn't absolutely need all pvp related perks. So if the combat system allowed players to switch stances that increase your accuracy, deploy overwatch mode, allow forced fire with explosives, have various equipment to spot your enemy first and have weapons that bear significant differencies depending on enviroment it would mean that knowledge of using all these features would be more than enough to make someone a good pvp player no matter of his build.
-
So would these special abilities be like something beyond SPECIAL or just additional no-level related perks? Like vault city phoenix implants?
I'm thinking about it like addition to current char development features. So SPECIAL, skillpoints, perks and these passive/active abilities. Or maybe something like "class perks" but problem with perks is that even at 4x21 lvl you have only 28 choices how to develop your char and thats would lead again to giant leaps and not step by step progress.
Simply from X level and above you will get 1 ability point per level. At trainers you will be able to spend this ability point to learn new stuff. And simply follow tree structure method so low lvl and less effective abilities has to be taken first in order to unlock better and more effective ones. And this could be something for pure PvE or even RP too.
-
Hm not bad and these abilities would probably go along with profesions?
-
FoT graphics are 2d sprites. Also they are in different angles than in Fo1/Fo2.
Really? I always thought FoT charas was 3D...
Anyway, I like the tactical improve idea, like "chess" :)
-
Topic is" Future pvp theme, not "what games you like to play".
-
Topic is" Future pvp theme, not "what games you like to play".
Worst moderator intervention ever.
I quoted a Game Master, and agree the idea of tactical improvement of PvP, so where's the OT exactly? - Avant : I just want you to stay on the topic, and discussion about games you started, simply did not look like a continuation of topic subject.
-
I really do think the idea of 'classes' is the way to go. Not strict classes, but rough outlines that people can build on.
Say, a 'Gunslinger' class. Someone who has very low AP attacks with pistols, and just keeps blasting away. He'd get perks that reduce pistol AP cost, increase unaimed critical chance, reduced AP penalties for aimed shots using pistols, better AC when he has a pistol out. That sort of thing.
Or an assault class. This guy would get perks for a tighter burst cone (making burst more effective at long range), reduced burst AP cost, better AC when he's armed with a rifle.
Or Sniper. Perks for automatic DR reduction on aimed rifle shots.
Or Doctor. Perks for reduced healing timeout, no weakening timeout when you heal, medical items are craftable without the first aid book, etc.
These are all just rough ideas, and they'd need balancing, but it'd be nice to have greater gameplay variation, rather than just another more criticals lifegiver
-
I really do think the idea of 'classes' is the way to go. Not strict classes, but rough outlines that people can build on.
Say, a 'Gunslinger' class. Someone who has very low AP attacks with pistols, and just keeps blasting away. He'd get perks that reduce pistol AP cost, increase unaimed critical chance, reduced AP penalties for aimed shots using pistols, better AC when he has a pistol out. That sort of thing.
Or an assault class. This guy would get perks for a tighter burst cone (making burst more effective at long range), reduced burst AP cost, better AC when he's armed with a rifle.
Or Sniper. Perks for automatic DR reduction on aimed rifle shots.
Or Doctor. Perks for reduced healing timeout, no weakening timeout when you heal, medical items are craftable without the first aid book, etc.
These are all just rough ideas, and they'd need balancing, but it'd be nice to have greater gameplay variation, rather than just another more criticals lifegiver
Sounds neat, especially that gunslinger dude. However how would these classes cope with our profesions? Players could have their economical profesion and fighting profesion. That's one of the roadblocks that's been causing problems since forever: if you're a profesional armorer, you can't be good at pvp. This is why people make alts, or don't make alts and don't participate in pvp. Separated pvp and economical classes wouldn't gear the game away from original fallout because fallout devs had rough choices for similar system.
Player in fallouts had his fighting style and his economical style in a way. Barter, gambling and steal were all economical skills. However the game ended up encounter farming being the best choice of getting stuff.
In addition, anyone living in wasteland has to know how to fight even if he's some sort of profesional, or have someone fight for him. Otherwise he'd be dead and that's what no-pvp chars keep doing when they meet someone who wants to fight.
-
Question to the devs - is redoing perks in this way something that would be considered?
-
So lets make it clear. Profession = your occupation. Class = your character abilities that determine whenever is he dmg dealer, tank, support person or simply all-can-do kinda guy.
Not strict classes, but rough outlines that people can build on.
Exactly. It shouldn't be 1 choice what class you want to roll. It should be chain of choices that will lead you through your path and eventually tell us what have you became. Nothing like - I pick sniper for this season. No, you will have to choose from wide variety of abilities that will determine what kind of character you are. And when you roll sniper build then there should be shitload of combinations how to roll it. One green brain psychopath that will not leave his position until he gets that perfect shot without enemy even knowing where the bullet came from. Another rather "rooftop" killer with backup pistol to cover his ass when things get really ugly. Next sniper would rather use assault rifles and combine them with grenades with boosted range etc.
And these things should be possible also for PvE and RP. I mean docs, miners, thieves, drivers, bounty hunters, barters... everyone should be able to define his character through these abilities.
Also I think that classes should stand apart from professions. Even pure combat big gunner should be able to take care of his guns and repair them a bit.
Question to the devs - is redoing perks in this way something that would be considered?
Again I have to say that there are simply not enough perks ingame. You can't count on that 7/5 choices (if 21 remains max lvl as it should not for reasons I've told before) will be enough for your char development. I think abilities should stand apart as completely new feature if they should be successful. Perks should remain as they are now, maybe with some changes linking perks with abilities to balance them properly. But I think special/perks/skillpoints/abilities is the way to go.
-
Fonline should never restrict character developlment to "classes". Classes are there already if you havent realized. Bad bad idea, very unfalloutish. Big no from me. I support the stances though, but then the whole pvp system needs an overhaul deployment and terrain vice... thats alot of stuff to do.. feels like useless jibberish to me atm.
-
Fonline should never restrict character developlment to "classes". Classes are there already if you havent realized. Bad bad idea, very unfalloutish. Big no from me. I support the stances though, but then the whole pvp system needs an overhaul deployment and terrain vice... thats alot of stuff to do.. feels like useless jibberish to me atm.
Its not about restrictions to classes. Anyone could choose anything like it is now but lets say I choose defense and support tree. I can choose anything I want from abilities in those trees only thing that limits me is my level and a need to spend some points in certain tree in order to reach for better abilities.
So you can't talk about anything like classes from the regular mmo point of view here. But if someone decides to choose abilities that affect weapon dmg, burst accuracy, reload speed and more or less ignores other trees then we may say that he rolls big gunner or simply burst dmg class or something like that. So again I have to repeat there should be no initial choices what class to roll at the character creation. Everything you are should be decided though game play and your taste.
I'm simply looking for diversion and variety because characters are now clones not only because they use one model for male/female but they use same builds too. They are simply calculated to be the most effective and there is no reason to play with something else. Sure you can do some small altering here or there but such low level cap and small numbers of perks will not let you to actually build your avatar as you like.
-
Sius are you absolutely sure that pvp chars cannot be balanced by toggling the perks, stats and skills? I mean you can honestly make good chars who can do pve and craft at the same time. My current char is actually fast shotting one hander lvl3 smallguns crafter, with 100 throwing and 125 outdoorsman. Very fun class, too bad he's outgunned by big guns at close range and can't stand a chance against current snipers at long range.
If we had additional classes for pvp, it would definitely bring more dept and so on but also lots of work because it is a new feature.
I'm quite sure that balancing the most effective pvp related perks, skills and stats, adding more perks, allowing players to pick more perks for additional builds and thinking roles for differend weapons would be enough. Here's the deal: if stats bore higher role in picking perks, you couldn't fill your perk slots completely with combat perks. Let's say if everyone could choose 14 perks. There's 7 fighting perks which are unlocked by your stat-build, plus additional luxury perks (strong back, cautious nature). This means that everyone is strongly encouraged to take all fighting perks and then they got free hands to choose which luxury perks they prefer. Get it? Because I really think this could solve something. Then again this is just the class-system included in normal levelling.
To add even more dept, you could always have 3 choices every time you want to pick a combat perk, so you got actually 21 combat perks suitable for your stat build, but you can only take 7.
Fonline should never restrict character developlment to "classes". Classes are there already if you havent realized. Bad bad idea, very unfalloutish.
So you're saying no to classes, but then you say that the classes are already in the game. This can mean that you're against the current fonline style.
It doesn't matter what's unfalloutish. When it comes to game mechanics, being falloutish is not important because game mechanics have to work properly. Because fallout wasn't designed as multiplayer game, it's not viable to say that mechanics aren't falloutish. If you want to keep the game falloutish, it just means that we keep the same background story.
-
I think this could work well along with a class system, yet preventing people from making powerbuilds and reduce number of alts on the server:
1) Divide all the skills into categories (simply combat and noncombat or more). It could look similar to Van Buren system:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4996/characterscreenvb.png)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4996/characterscreenvb.png
2) An overall amount of extra skill points that you get whenever you go up a level is divided by 4 (number of skill categories) and assigned to every category.
Lets say that you get +20 skillpoints per level. It gets divided by 4 and as a result you have 5 skill points to spend in each category of skills.
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6332/characterscreenvbkopia.png)
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6332/characterscreenvbkopia.png
So the system forces you to spread your skill points more steadily. Exact proportions in which the points gets divided could vary and be determined by a class of a character. So if one is a sniper, he will get more skill points into "combat" and "stealth" categories and less into "science" and "diplomatic", but still he can't make a powerbuild totally ignoring all the skills but one or two.
-
Elmehdi your suggestion counts with the actual classes right? Like I choose to be sniper and then it affects me ingame. And it follows kinda pre-defined pattern with that skillpoint distribution since you will get +x point to combat and +x point to stealth skills when you rol al sniper. But until there are more sniper types to choose from then this solves nothing. And even if there are like 5 types for each class then its still something that forces you to do something by predefined stuff. Thats nothing I would support (but maybe I got you wrong here).
I've suggested something that does not differs much from current system. You are master of your character in every way and no one is forcing you to spend point on something you completely ignore during your playtime. But as avv pointed out it might be possible to add it without drastic changes but simply with perk variety and combinations with skillpoints requirements it might work. But the way I described it you are limited only by your level ergo count of ability points you can spend on learning new tricks. If its somehow fused with perks/skillpoints then it might work but it still have to follow simple rule: you can't chose better abilities(perks) until you have chosen those weaker and low lvl ones (but again even with 84 max lvl there are only 28 choices how to develop your char).So I still think something like abilities should stand apart from anything else, maybe link it mildly with some perks/specials (such as requirements for high lvl abilities, so in order to learn ability that boosts your throwing range by +3/6/10 hexes you will have to have 110% skill + have ho! perk or something like that) but no close relations should be applied here.
-
The point of that idea is to make it impossible to pump all available skill points into 1 or 2 skills during the whole game. And yes – it would force people to spread points into something that might not be so useful for them. It deals only with skill points distribution and has nothing to do with perks or ability points or whatsoever. It’ like ok – you are a sniper so you will get more points into combat and stealth but you still have to choose at least two additional skills that might be less of use for you, but will make your character more universal and not PvP powerbuild.
-
The point of that idea is to make it impossible to pump all available skill points into 1 or 2 skills during the whole game. And yes – it would force people to spread points into something that might not be so useful for them. It deals only with skill points distribution and has nothing to do with perks or ability points or whatsoever. It’ like ok – you are a sniper so you will get more points into combat and stealth but you still have to choose at least two additional skills that might be less of use for you, but will make your character more universal and not PvP powerbuild.
Yes but how do you decide who is a sniper and who is a big gunner? By choosing an actual class or maybe if game will keep track of that where you put your skillpoints then it will boost that section with bonus skillpoints from other sections. But both seems weird to me. I mean I like games with classes and such but if something like an actual class system should be introduced here then it should be way more sophisticated than just simple skillpoint distribution. And I can already see those wow/diablo comments. Anyway I think forcing people to spend points elsewhere is not the best solution. Instead we should reduce that gap between PvE and PvP. Maybe make basic combat skills accessible by anyone even that rock digging RPer. Also if you choose to roll pure dmg dealing and ignore everything else then your char should look like that. Very good dmg output but useless in everything else. And since we don't have that "else" right now, it should get it done ;).
-
So you're saying no to classes, but then you say that the classes are already in the game. This can mean that you're against the current fonline style.
It doesn't matter what's unfalloutish. When it comes to game mechanics, being falloutish is not important because game mechanics have to work properly. Because fallout wasn't designed as multiplayer game, it's not viable to say that mechanics aren't falloutish. If you want to keep the game falloutish, it just means that we keep the same background story.
WHAT? Do you have some kind of need to always intentionally understand peoples typings wrong? If you are smart enuff you know what I ment.
Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.
Try to understand that fallout will never be diablo or wow.
Don't be a smartass please.
---
About the class system. Why do you want it? What will it do better than this system we already have? Fallen earth already has classless system and it has a monthly fee. Works very well and doesn't restrict players.
-
But he is right. ;)
When developing an Multiplayergame one has to look for correct mechanics etc. into the game engine.
And since the game engine and the mechanics were made for a single player game, there are some changes needed which may seem a bit "unfallouty" but important for balancing the game a bit more.
Also this thread is about throwing some ideas in and see how those can be handled. Just because someone suggests something it doesn't mean we'll see this tomorrow ingame.
-
Yes of course changes need to be made, but not in way that would take it away from the rules set already developed.
Also this thread is about throwing some ideas in and see how those can be handled. Such because someone suggests something it doesn't mean we'll see this tomorrow.
Thank god :D. I thought devs will listen avv :D
I also think that the reason to play fonline is that it is based on fallout pen n paper rules. Otherwise I could go play any other falloutish game out there. And ofcourse V13 in future (if it ever comes out). Don't break something that works.
-
Yes but how do you decide who is a sniper and who is a big gunner? By choosing an actual class or maybe if game will keep track of that where you put your skillpoints then it will boost that section with bonus skillpoints from other sections. But both seems weird to me. I mean I like games with classes and such but if something like an actual class system should be introduced here then it should be way more sophisticated than just simple skillpoint distribution. And I can already see those wow/diablo comments. Anyway I think forcing people to spend points elsewhere is not the best solution. Instead we should reduce that gap between PvE and PvP. Maybe make basic combat skills accessible by anyone even that rock digging RPer. Also if you choose to roll pure dmg dealing and ignore everything else then your char should look like that. Very good dmg output but useless in everything else. And since we don't have that "else" right now, it should get it done ;).
That’s quite funny because I thought that you meant to choose a class during the character creation. Kinda like at the beginning of the game you choose to be either a wizzard or barbarian or dragonslayer (edit: don't take it seriously :P) or whatsoever :P. I have not much experience in other MMORPGs, ignore this idea then.
Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.
Try to understand that fallout will never be diablo or wow.
Don't be a smartass please.
You seem to have quite a narrow understanding of what Fallout is. Firstly it was never supposed to be a multipayer game. This simple fact makes A LOT of changes inevitable. You should as well keep in mind that Fallout itself, even thought it was an epic game, was still far from perfection. There are many ways to make it better - some ideas can be inspired by other successful games (Diablo or WoW too, as you mentioned) and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it works well.
Franlky, I’d be glad if devs were more willing to experiment, even though it might mean to alter a Fallout and see what happens.
-
Jibberish
You just had to get involved didnt you ;)
-
Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.
I would leave Fonline for Jagged Alliance mmorpg anyday, becouse it is so much better game from pvp point of view. Too bad there isn't one.
The things that would make pvp hell of a lot more interesting are, more cover and stances. Thats all we need. Now basically its all about two guys trying to race crit each other as stated somewhere in above posts. The whole combat is build around winning the sequence roll.
//sry editing is a bad habbit of mine, but I will continue doing it, sry in advance, you will encounter this many more times. It also keeps you guessing. You never know what hit ya!
-
You just had to get involved didnt you ;)
It's a forum. You state your opinion and people respond (or not). If you want to communicate with just one person then use PM option.
EDIT:
Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.
AFAIK Fonline engine is quite elastic and has nothing to do with Falloot 1/2 engine.
BTW:
step 1: Think of what you want to write
step 2: Write it down in a text editor
step 3: Read what you have written
step 4: Decide if what you have written is what you wanted to say, if not go back to step 2
step 5: Send a reply on a forum.
It makes it hard to respond if you keep editing your comments every minute ;-).
-
WHAT? Do you have some kind of need to always intentionally understand peoples typings wrong? If you are smart enuff you know what I ment.
Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.
Well then, explain those rules. Take your time, the more thoroughly we can discuss them, the easier we find understanding.
About the class system. Why do you want it? What will it do better than this system we already have? Fallen earth already has classless system and it has a monthly fee. Works very well and doesn't restrict players.
Because if done right, this class system might just fix pvp so that player's don't need to make powerbuilds and alts to participate. In fallen earth everyone is a fighter, there's no other roles to play.
Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.
Hey dude, with that attitude nothing is going to happen. I bet that if there ever was a time when there was no crafting profesions and someone suggested it, certain people just went "nono that's unfalloutish, fallout didnt have profesions, never going to happen."
Besides, taking clear vision for future and slowly developing the game that way is much more effective than trying to find quick fixes for things. For example we've gone back and forth with exping, crit tables and worldmap travelling speed. That's not progress, it's just either testing things and getting feedback or lack of planning. Pvp needs a goal towards which to aim.
For example guarded mines and npc town reputations are sign that devs are actually planning something and slowly implementing features.
The things that would make pvp hell of a lot more interesting are, more cover and stances. Thats all we need. Now basically its all about two guys trying to race crit each other as stated somewhere in above posts. The whole combat is build around winning the sequence roll.
Only stances wouldn't fix it. It would be just balanced between powerbuilds.
-
First of all if you don't agree with ideas posted here then don't take them into personal level.
If they look stupid from your point of view don't try to make them look stupid to everyone else. Because using wow/diablo or unfallouty stuff like "arguments" is just... Well try to see it from this perspective: FOnline is not Fallout as we know him. Same with Fallout Tactics or Fallout 3. FOnline is completely different game that is based on something we loved and admired for ages, but it takes it into whole new level. How do you think FT would end up if it did not introduced new "unfallouty" stuff? But it did and it worked really good all together and FOnline has to take same path. It would be naive to think that you can take Fallout 2, overhaul it into MMORPG and think that it will work out just as it is. There are tons of aspects that simply does not exist in single player gaming and therefore Fallout 2 works as SP but taken to MP it fails hard. Starting with character development in 7 steps and ending with terrible game economics there are things devs have to handle in MMO. And since there are known means how to handle them, then why not to take an example from them? You said that we have to work with engine and not try to change it since it may take months. Yeah but how long will it take to create own rules and stuff that will work in MMO environment and still follow original Fallout mechanics without any additions? ::)
Back to topic: Elmehdi that abilities stuff I suggested before does not count on an actual class choice. Instead you would develop into some "class" as you play. Also as it was stated before there are classes already and all that passive/active abilities stuff would be just an extension to current system with familiar mechanics we already have for perks/skillpoints.
-
FOnline is not Fallout as we know him. Same with Fallout Tactics or Fallout 3.
Tactics is a very falloutish tactic game, fallout 3 is a very falloutish rpgfps.
Tactics I can't stand becouse it just blows compared to JA2, fallout 3 was awesome until I realized that devs had taken the short path on character development. Mechanic was there but it was plain too simple and you could actually make a character that can do everything. So they kinda screwed it up.
Well then, explain those rules. Take your time, the more thoroughly we can discuss them, the easier we find understanding.
Oh I see, you are not aware of them. Read fallout bible and then fallout pen n paper rpg rules set. Take your time. Becouse If you don't I can't take anything seriously you are saying. And also it gives your opinions more value to me.
In fallen earth everyone is a fighter, there's no other roles to play.
That is what you are going to get in a system where you don't need to create alts. People are crafters but they decide them selves how heavy in crafting they want to be or how heavy in support they want to be. In fonline everyone is a fighter also, just depends on the palyer choises how heavy in fighting they want to be.
To actually make things balanced there should be a total remake on the action point system. It's too simple. The system should be 100actionpoints system like in ja2 1.13. Then you could have variety in guns rate of fire, reload times, aiming times etc. you name it. If some one doesn't know how it works. Basically every character has 100 action points. The amount of aps every action takes depends on your stats. Guy with high agility takes less actionpoints to move per hex than someone with low agility. Someone with high dexterity takes less time to aim with his weapon than some one with low dex. List goes on. But that is Jagged Alliance, I don't want fallout to be like that. Instead:
Classes are not the solution. about agility. It effects too many things. There should be another stat for gunhandling that effects on actionpoints used in firing. Dexterity or something similiar. This way you would need to concentrate in a character who moves fast and acts as scout or, something that can fire with his weapon many times(restricted on weapons rate of fire), OR a balance between these. This breaks up the powerbuilding stuff and makes you choose a "class", how you want to play your character. Best of all it's Falloutish :)
Basically we just need another special to put points in (and full overhaul on the skill system, what specials affect what skills etc). If you don't believe me, do the math.
classes are just restricting and ridiculous. You dont choose a class in real life. What I like about fallout is that it has an immersion. Me walking in wasteland meeting new people and killing new people. More gamey you want to make, less immersion it will have.
-
I think its a pretty safe bet we will never have classes.
SPECIAL is pretty flexible, if anythings needed its tweeks rather than total redesign, imo.
-
Tactics is a very falloutish tactic game, fallout 3 is a very falloutish rpgfps.
In tactics everyone was fighter, not an armor crafter or trader. Players might had some side abilities like doctor and driver but in the end, everyone was a figher because there was nothing else to do than fight.
Fallout 3 was singleplayer so it's out of the question aswell.
Oh I see, you are not aware of them. Read fallout bible and then fallout pen n paper rpg rules set. Take your time. Becouse If you don't I can't take anything seriously you are saying.
I've actually read fallout bibble, it's just fallout background story and has nothing to do with game mechanics. And fallout pen&paper didn't have profesions like armor crafter which demanded big skillpoint investments. Besides, where is it even stated that fonline must be faithful to some old role play game? What if someone brought up a superb idea that wasn't faithful to fallout, should we just scrap it because of that?
Besides, you represented your Jagged Allience related idea below, which surely is unfalloutish in every way. So what you do is to draw your "unfalloutish" card when it suits you.
That is what you are going to get in a system where you don't need to create alts. People are crafters but they decide them selves how heavy in crafting they want to be or how heavy in support they want to be. In fonline everyone is a fighter also, just depends on the palyer choises how heavy in fighting they want to be.
If you don't decide to go full heavy towards pvp, you'll find yourself far behind.
To actually make things balanced there should be a total remake on the action point system. It's too simple. The system should be 100actionpoints system like in ja2 1.13. Then you could have variety in guns rate of fire, reload times, aiming times etc. you name it. If some one doesn't know how it works. Basically every character has 100 action points. The amount of aps every action takes depends on your stats. Guy with high agility takes less actionpoints to move per hex than someone with low agility. Someone with high dexterity takes less time to aim with his weapon than some one with low dex. List goes on.
Classes are not the solution. about agility. It effects too many things. There should be another stat for gunhandling that effects on actionpoints used in firing. Dexterity or something similiar. This way you would need to concentrate in a character who moves fast and acts as scout or, something that can fire with his weapon many times(restricted on weapons rate of fire), OR a balance between these.
Basically we just need another special to put points in (and full overhaul on the skill system, what specials affect what skills etc). If you don't believe me, do the math.
Doesn't sound too bad honestly. So what you're saying is that shooting big guns cost less AP if you got lots of str. Striking with knife or shooting with pistol costs less if you got lots of AGI?
I think its a pretty safe bet we will never have classes.
SPECIAL is pretty flexible, if anythings needed its tweaks rather than total redesign, imo.
That's why I'm more towards adding more perks and allowing player to have more perk slots and kind of forcing them to pick combat perks and luxury perks so that nobody can create a powerbuild capable of doing only one thing very well.
-
What's with this "made for a singleplayer game" bullshit one keeps hearing every now and then? SPECIAL is based on GURPS almost to a degree it could be called a blatant ripoff. Actually, GURPS would be used if not for all the gore in the game. Oh, and the system worked in Tactics with very little modification. It's not a singleplayer thingie, it's just a set of rules made with an rpg game in mind. Obviously, you could use the dice and this particular set of rules to settle things both in NPC-PC and PC-PC relations. Besides, most people complain about the system being too lethal - hey, is that really a trait of a singleplayer game?
Oh, and "impossible to defend" and "PvP being all luck/too easy"? That's quite funny since PvP's been dominated by exactly SAME FRIGGIN' PEOPLE since early 2009 and somehow I didn't see avv or Izual among them ::) It's nothing personal, it's just mind boggling when people who lack the credentials say stuff like that. Actually PvP is not about luck in the slightest degree - it's about teamwork and positioning. So yeah, you can both defend and assault and there's a world of difference between the two. Anyway, there are a few things one has to remember while discussing FOnline combat mechanics.
First of all, combat in 2238 is very fast when it comes to movement. Maps are relatively small, it takes a few seconds to leave or drastically change positions. This requires very high lethality when it comes to sorting out the effects of the attacks to hope for decisive fights - if you can't kill (or knockdown, the practical implications are more or less the same) the target in a single, full AP barrage, he's going to run away. It's just that simple. Now, you could increase survivability while decreasing mobility, for example disabling the ability to run while in combat... and what do we get that way? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we get TLA. And I'm more than sure most people agree that combat in 2238 is far more tactical than out there. In TLA your tactical skills, coordination etc. could totally suck, but quite often you could still win because of your build, level difference etc. On 2238 everyone more or less has a chance and smart play/player skill are rewarded to a much greater extent - and I really hope it stays that way.
Another thing is defence vs assault. Right now there's little to no reason to defend - you have less situational awareness then the attacker, it's harder to coordinate and pulling off a successful ambush has more to do with counterattacking at the right moment than actually catching your enemy in the crossfire. There's no need to use any sort of fixed positions, because they can be easily bypassed and you get quickly filled full of led if you don't keep moving... so I'm all for introducing some sort of AC bonus (could be pretty friggin' high, honestly) when standing inside a building next to a window or something like that. It just shouldn't be overdone or end up being the decisive factor, or else we'd be stuck with something in line with Close Combat games, but without suppression and morale (which were the things that made it work).
-
its strange to call it tactics when you control only one character - it needs to be extanded to group fight. And most players rly look at PvP in 1v1 situations or some encounters with no osbtacles...
I agree on the fact that game is unfriendly for defending - part points Boat mentioned there is fact that power chars are bade around drug using . On offensie you just take drugs and attack. When defending you dont rly know when to take them , if you take them in combat you vritaully waste waste time on eatign al lthe shit you need ... if you take it too early then you will have to fight with penalties making you almost useless
As for saying devs & GMs opinion dotn count coz they dont do PvP , mind me but they can watch other fights and you dont know about it. Also what was said ealier "PvP" is more about power builds and non everyone have time and will to build one and bunch of chars to support it
-
As for saying devs & GMs opinion dotn count coz they dont do PvP , mind me but they can watch other fights and you dont know about it. Also what was said ealier "PvP" is more about power builds and non everyone have time and will to build one and bunch of chars to support it
"They" do alot of testing combat chars and abilities. ;)
Just because you don't see them doing so it doesn't mean they don't do it. :)
-
What's with this "made for a singleplayer game" bullshit one keeps hearing every now and then? SPECIAL is based on GURPS almost to a degree it could be called a blatant ripoff. Actually, GURPS would be used if not for all the gore in the game. Oh, and the system worked in Tactics with very little modification. It's not a singleplayer thingie, it's just a set of rules made with an rpg game in mind.
Fallouts and fonline have differend goals. In fallouts the ultimate goal was to finish the game, you could do it as a char who coulnd't fight at all and that was cool. But in fonline there's no goal, or at least the goal can't be to play as loser who dies when he meets hostilities. A speech powerbuild cannot persuade another char to kill himself or lay down his weapons. Fallout tactics had good combat system, but there was nothing else to do than fight so everyone was combat "powerbuild".
Oh, and "impossible to defend" and "PvP being all luck/too easy"? That's quite funny since PvP's been dominated by exactly SAME FRIGGIN' PEOPLE since early 2009 and somehow I didn't see avv or Izual among them ::) It's nothing personal, it's just mind boggling when people who lack the credentials say stuff like that.
Yeh no offense taken, I've been waiting for real pvp players to participate in this discussion anyway.
In TLA your tactical skills, coordination etc. could totally suck, but quite often you could still win because of your build, level difference etc. On 2238 everyone more or less has a chance and smart play/player skill are rewarded to a much greater extent - and I really hope it stays that way.
Everyone with powerbuild that is.
Another thing is defence vs assault. Right now there's little to no reason to defend - you have less situational awareness then the attacker, it's harder to coordinate and pulling off a successful ambush has more to do with counterattacking at the right moment than actually catching your enemy in the crossfire. There's no need to use any sort of fixed positions, because they can be easily bypassed and you get quickly filled full of led if you don't keep moving... so I'm all for introducing some sort of AC bonus (could be pretty friggin' high, honestly) when standing inside a building next to a window or something like that. It just shouldn't be overdone or end up being the decisive factor, or else we'd be stuck with something in line with Close Combat games, but without suppression and morale (which were the things that made it work).
Doesn't sound all that bad. Counter to high ac cover positions could be forced fire with explosives, rockets and flamer, you could smoke enemies out of their bunkers.
In addition it would provide tactical possibilites if you had full sprint, gun ready walk and overwatch position. Full sprint means that you can run fast but it takes longer to deploy your gun and shoot. Walking with gun ready means that you can shoot faster when encountering an enemy but you're slower. Overwatch means that you shoot almost instantly when meeting an enemy, but you got tunnel vision, you're stationary and cannot see your flank or rear. Then guns could have differend features depending on how fast they shot and what kind of fields of view they provided. For example scoped rifle is accurate, but you get narrowed field of view when in overwatch position. Shotgun is very fast to shoot when you encounter an enemy. Support guns are slow to deploy but you can shoot very long and hold positions.
This was something that fallout tactics lacked. It had various guns and stances, but all guns shot immediately and dealt huge instant damage and every char had 360 field of view in overwatch mode.
-
Everyone with powerbuild that is.
Well, I don't know. You could always go with 6LK more crit, better crit and you're pretty effective with a small gun. In my opinion it's not as bad as people make it sound. Maybe it's something about PvP players being pack animals and crafters usually fighting when they're alone? With the buffed crits I wouldn't say killing someone takes that much of effort character-wise, so if you manage to surprise your opponent (flank him, pull the gun on him first etc.) you should be pretty well off. I've had a funny screwup when I ambushed a miner with plasma grenades and didn't get him on the first two due to lag - he just ran a bit ahead out of my range and instakilled me. I bet there are tons of stories like that floating around. That's why I like instakills and high lethality in general - it keeps everyone dangerous. With combat relying on stats too much crafter builds are simply inferior to powerbuilds and there's no ammount of skill that could even things out.
Doesn't sound all that bad. Counter to high ac cover positions could be forced fire with explosives, rockets and flamer, you could smoke enemies out of their bunkers.
In addition it would provide tactical possibilites if you had full sprint, gun ready walk and overwatch position. Full sprint means that you can run fast but it takes longer to deploy your gun and shoot. Walking with gun ready means that you can shoot faster when encountering an enemy but you're slower. Overwatch means that you shoot almost instantly when meeting an enemy, but you got tunnel vision, you're stationary and cannot see your flank or rear. Then guns could have differend features depending on how fast they shot and what kind of fields of view they provided. For example scoped rifle is accurate, but you get narrowed field of view when in overwatch position. Shotgun is very fast to shoot when you encounter an enemy. Support guns are slow to deploy but you can shoot very long and hold positions.
This was something that fallout tactics lacked. It had various guns and stances, but all guns shot immediately and dealt huge instant damage and every char had 360 field of view in overwatch mode.
With a proper interface it could work pretty well. Shift + click - full sprint, normal click - gun ready, stationary for 2-3 seconds - overwatch. Tunnel vision would require really precise and fluid turning mechanics (if you press a your character's vision ALWAYS follows the attack cursor). But then again this'd require suppression mechanics and forced fire. I'm not sure if that wouldn't be taking it a bit too far. I mean, firefights would be more realistic, yeah, but you'd end up with shooting TONS of ammunition to fix the enemy and advance, so crafting would have to be totally rebalanced. That's why I said it would be problematic if cover mechanics were to be made the defining factor in battle.
Besides remember that those mechanics would promote squad tactics far more than the current ones do. You'd need someone to lay down base of fire, you'd need completely different weapons/skills to maneuver and deliver a kill etc. There's already enough whine associated with combat being too heavy on teamwork, and I guess that being a BG character that's useless aside from providing covering fire and can't do much lone-wolf style would piss even the most hardcore military buffs out there off.
I think we should just start small and introduce something more in line with what we have right now. Something like crouched and prone stances that influence your movement speed and give you AC bonus and receiving AC bonus from using cover (windows, wells, etc.). Throw forced fire for area weapons into the mix (grenade room clearing techniques, hell yeah) and we've got ourselves combat that's tied to the terrain a bit more without turning everything concerning fighting upside down. After it's implemented we could think about more fancy stuff - and ask ourselves whether we want it or not at that point.
-
when character would stand near obstacle, he would get bonus (after some time) to DR? To simulate cover and defensive position.
-
when character would stand near obstacle, he would get bonus (after some time) to DR? To simulate cover and defensive position.
Well, I think that cover shouldn't make you tougher, it should make you harder to hit (so AC bonus, not anything resistance-related). It'd mean that the enemy has to come closer to engage you effectively when you're hiding behind a window or crouching behind a cart, giving you a few extra shots if they go human wave instead of flanking. That's enough to make smart defenders start planning for killzones, overlapping areas of fire etc. Increased DR would just make you a bit tougher, something critical-based weapon users wouldn't probably even notice ;D
-
yeah, but it has to be so high bonus to make any efect. I am new player, don't know mutch about realy hardcore PvP and know only few PvP builds, but each is maxing their weapon skill to have 95 percent to hit, no matter what enemy is wearing, no matter if he is shooting to eye, no matter how far away he is. So if even with great cover enemy would have 95% to shoot me, I would rather go with DR.
-
yeah, but it has to be so high bonus to make any efect. I am new player, don't know mutch about realy hardcore PvP and know only few PvP builds, but each is maxing their weapon skill to have 95 percent to hit, no matter what enemy is wearing, no matter if he is shooting to eye, no matter how far away he is. So if even with great cover enemy would have 95% to shoot me, I would rather go with DR.
Well, that's why it has to be a large AC bonus, along the lines of 30 or even 50. And if someone wants to make a dedicated sniper to remove opponents from behind obstacles 50 hexes away, by all means let him max his SG up to 300.
-
Well, I don't know. You could always go with 6LK more crit, better crit and you're pretty effective with a small gun. In my opinion it's not as bad as people make it sound.
Sniper/crafter is possible, same goes with many other crafter-fighters. But the fact still remains that the game strongly encourages to make chars able to do one thing very well because the potential is so high. The game has to encourage players to make chars which can do about 2-3 things well so that they aren't too tempted to use alts and ruin pvp by caracterbuild arms race.
With the buffed crits I wouldn't say killing someone takes that much of effort character-wise, so if you manage to surprise your opponent (flank him, pull the gun on him first etc.) you should be pretty well off.
How to recognize your opponent? Surely it would be easy solution to just blast everybody with p90 that comes across unsafe mine or wasteland, but surely we players should be allowed to choose between right and wrong. You could say it's a matter of survival and name of the game to shoot everyone just in case, but then best way to survive is to avoid fights.
There's already enough whine associated with combat being too heavy on teamwork, and I guess that being a BG character that's useless aside from providing covering fire and can't do much lone-wolf style would piss even the most hardcore military buffs out there off.
This big guns dude could be first of all decent fist fighter due to his strength and everyone with ability to use a gun, should have at least some ability to use all guns in general. So this big gunner would prefer shotguns and smgs when he's not providing support fire for his squad. Assault rifles should be jacks of all trades and suitable for all, just like ak47 is the ultimate all rounder.
I think we should just start small and introduce something more in line with what we have right now. Something like crouched and prone stances that influence your movement speed and give you AC bonus and receiving AC bonus from using cover (windows, wells, etc.). Throw forced fire for area weapons into the mix (grenade room clearing techniques, hell yeah) and we've got ourselves combat that's tied to the terrain a bit more without turning everything concerning fighting upside down. After it's implemented we could think about more fancy stuff - and ask ourselves whether we want it or not at that point.
Along with enemy-recognization system and powerbuild-balance, it sounds good.
-
Well, that's why it has to be a large AC bonus, along the lines of 30 or even 50. And if someone wants to make a dedicated sniper to remove opponents from behind obstacles 50 hexes away, by all means let him max his SG up to 300.
Yeah. And the one with 120 would hit nothing at all. So players had to minmax again.
-
How to recognize your opponent? Surely it would be easy solution to just blast everybody with p90 that comes across unsafe mine or wasteland, but surely we players should be allowed to choose between right and wrong. You could say it's a matter of survival and name of the game to shoot everyone just in case, but then best way to survive is to avoid fights.
Just know them by names ;D No, seriously, namecolorizing is good enough, I think that making it any easier would spoil the suspense factor for some people (including me). I just love how tense some encounters can get when both players meet in unexpected circumstances and aren't really sure whether they want to shoot first or not and are pondering how to get out of the situation without risking too much. Definitely some of the best moments I've had with the game.
This big guns dude could be first of all decent fist fighter due to his strength and everyone with ability to use a gun, should have at least some ability to use all guns in general. So this big gunner would prefer shotguns and smgs when he's not providing support fire for his squad. Assault rifles should be jacks of all trades and suitable for all, just like ak47 is the ultimate all rounder.
Hm, I'd much rather see the LSW and perhaps M-60 usable almost as immediately as the assault rifle. I mean it's not even that unrealistic, you could very well shoot SAW type weapons from the hip or from the shoulder while standing in CQB. You're not going to be as accurate as with a rifle, but it's already modeled in the game I guess.
Yeah. And the one with 120 would hit nothing at all. So players had to minmax again.
120 is awfully low. 180 is the minimum if you want to fight and I don't see anything wrong with that - it's not that many skill points anyway. You could easily get 180+ SG and max another skill to 300 with 10 INT skilled.
-
First post
This thread is about what direction and basics our pvp system should include
For now PvP in FOnline 2238 is "1 shot". You die in 1-3 shots from PvP power builds. Many players like this, and many players do not like this. And looks like this will stay 1 shot style.
I myself dont like 1 shot style PvP. In my opinion demage from weapons should be completly changed, lowered demage, critical damage nerfed, ammo type vs armor type should be very important.
There should be one battle mode ( not mixed real time/turn based) with reduced to minimum player dextarity needed to battle ( no running and gunning to avaid demage) and more depended on your character statistics and tactical move like in pure turn based mode.
As said many times before Fallout critical hits and weapons was not meant to used aganist other players. Game model was not made for 'real time' mode as it is in FOnline - this leads to disbalance in game mechanic.
This is how I would see FOnline. PvP as it is now with "1 shot" is liked by some players and good for them. However if there would be initiative annouced on forum for testing rebalanced weapons and criticals I would take part in them.
-
Just know them by names ;D No, seriously, namecolorizing is good enough, I think that making it any easier would spoil the suspense factor for some people (including me). I just love how tense some encounters can get when both players meet in unexpected circumstances and aren't really sure whether they want to shoot first or not and are pondering how to get out of the situation without risking too much. Definitely some of the best moments I've had with the game.
I know what you mean, and there's nothing like re-match with red tagged dude because he no longer gets the advantage of surprise. However there's no way to keep up with all playerkillers and give them justice. A bad dude always gets the first shot when he meets a nice guy. On the other hand we're discussing here how to make combat less dependent on first strike, so it could be fixed on its own.
Hm, I'd much rather see the LSW and perhaps M-60 usable almost as immediately as the assault rifle. I mean it's not even that unrealistic, you could very well shoot SAW type weapons from the hip or from the shoulder while standing in CQB. You're not going to be as accurate as with a rifle, but it's already modeled in the game I guess.
But then we'd face the same problem as fallout tactics had: big guns outgunned smallguns in late game. Because shots were launched immediately when enemy was spotted, a m60 was always better in everything than ak47. It was sad because all those shotguns and low tier smallguns were cool. This means that small guns would be good only in sniping and big guns would dominate close range.
Here's a sligthly off topic point of view:
Israelis had advantage over soldiers of Egypt in six day war (or was it yom kippur, shit can't remember) because Israelis had uzis and egypt had ak47. When assaulting bunkers being able to turn your gun fast held important role. Since uzi was closer to your body, it was faster to turn and it outmatched ak47 in close quarters.
Also imagine Tunnel Rats in vietnam with m60. They used pistols and knives for a reason.
Either big gun dudes are stuck with their long guns and do good only in the open, or they can use some small guns too when situation demands or we stick to the current way where big guns just dominate close range and that's that.
-
Besides, you represented your Jagged Allience related idea below, which surely is unfalloutish in every way. So what you do is to draw your "unfalloutish" card when it suits you.
You really have some kind of a syndrome to always try to be right and find flaws on peoples opinions. If you
actually would have read the text properly you would have noticed this:
But that is Jagged Alliance, I don't want fallout to be like that. Instead:
So really you are not making a good picture of yourself to anyone.
Besides, where is it even stated that fonline must be faithful to some old role play game? What if someone brought up a superb idea that wasn't faithful to fallout, should we just scrap it because of that?
"some old rpg" It's not some old rpg, It is GURPS and it's still played all over the world. You really don't have a clue what fallout is about.
Respect gone, forever.
Doesn't sound too bad honestly. So what you're saying is that shooting big guns cost less AP if you got lots of str. Striking with knife or shooting with pistol costs less if you got lots of AGI?
Basically yes, but no. Read my post again, I don't want to repeat my self.
Either big gun dudes are stuck with their long guns and do good only in the open, or they can use some small guns too when situation demands or we stick to the current way where big guns just dominate close range and that's that.
Forcing people to choose classes wont fix that you know?
Solution.
Big guns have med range, cost alotmof ap to fire, reduced to hit value at short range
Smg sized weapons have short range and cost less ap to fire
Sniper weapons have very long range, cost alot of ap to fire, have highly reduced to hit value on short ranges becouse of scope.
Now we have rock paper and scissors
Big guns dominate SMG's at med range and short
SMG's dominate Sniper weapons and big guns at short range
Sniper weapons dominate everyone at long range, but lack at short and medium range.
It wont be as simple as that, everything is weapon dependant but you get the point. When going with a party to some pvp you will always
need all kind of builds becouse none is more dominant in each situation. It is always possible that snipers will dominate open ground and
long streets. But Then short range weapons need to get smart and outmanouver the sniper. Big guns are there to do what they are ment to do. support. Everyone would have a role in pvp fights. It's realistic and increases the immersion of that you area actually usefull in something.
So really the classes will solve nothing.
We also need overhaul on AC, becouse why the hell does anykind of armor make you less likely to get hit?
AC should be very high on guys with no armor. And guys in Power Armor should have no AC at all.
Armor should only affect in DR only. This would also make hand to hand builds viable.
-
After all things can be solved more easily than just making dreams of complicated and "balanced" systems.
PVP will never be extremely well balanced. Not in any world. There is too many modifiers to actually make things balanced.
-
You really have some kind of a syndrome to always try to be right and find flaws on peoples opinions.
It looks like you were editing your message while I was writing mine. Don't blame me.
Big guns have med range, cost alotmof ap to fire, reduced to hit value at short range
Smg sized weapons have short range and cost less ap to fire
Sniper weapons have very long range, cost alot of ap to fire, have highly reduced to hit value on short ranges becouse of scope.
Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.
So really the classes will solve nothing.
Classes are out of question like Solar said.
We also need overhaul on AC, becouse why the hell does anykind of armor make you less likely to get hit?
AC should be very high on guys with no armor. And guys in Power Armor should have no AC at all.
Armor should only affect in DR only. This would also make hand to hand builds viable.
AC doesn't make you less likely to hit, but it renders some hits useless because they bounce off the armor. It's just that fallout combat doesn't have specific note when the hit is bounced off or just dodged.
After all things can be solved more easily than just making dreams of complicated and "balanced" systems.
PVP will never be extremely well balanced. Not in any world. There is too many modifiers to actually make things balanced.
It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.
-
Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.
Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.
Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.
We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.
More balance suggestions on power builds.
Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.
Here is another idea.
4th tag skill. Really shuffles the deck. Then you could actually take 1 combat skill, 2 for crafting and 1 for support. Just an idea, it would need to be tweaked to overall skillpoint gain but anyways. It's something to think of.
It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.
Yeah, but it's useless. You could instead start working on something that could be actually made.
Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.
-
I think, that we have to go this way:
1. How we want to play PvP?
2. Which (not classes) roles should character play in battle? (now, we have BG burster, maybe SG burster, Granate thrower and EW+SG snipers)
3. How to make variety between those chars?
a) more perks that support our kind of roles, maybe tree-like, lower perks would support 3 roles a bit, mid perk would support 2 roles more and high perk would support one role much more
b), with weapons that support our kinds of roles
3. balancing and altering scenery to support rethinked way of PvP
-
Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.
I was just thinking if it's easier to either change the rules so that no new models are required. But if making new models is faster, then it's the way to go. We should choose the path that takes least work because both are working.
Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.
That's a minor issue. For example doctor and armorer take much bigger chunk of your pvp efficiency. But our pvp system shouldn't punish anyone severly for deciding not to put all of the skillpoints on combat related skills.
We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.
Yeh ew should be rare for sure, restricted even.
Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.
Not only charisma, but the fact that crafting related skill can be dumped to another character and the pvp dude can just concentrate all skills on fighting. These are know facts but nerfing charisma even more isn't helping. That's because pvp powerbuilds don't even enter safe towns or involve in charisma related actions, they are only taken when fighting char is needed.
It's actually pretty long hike to end the reign of alts and powerbuilds. First thing that comes to mind is that player is required to perform fighting tasks to get his hands on best crafting recipes, but that's another story and completely beyond the topic of this thread. What we can discuss is how to reduce the effectiveness of pvp builds by making a reasonable pvp theme. This is done by lowering the potential of pvp builds' damage output and resistance so that you cannot spend all your skillpoints and perk slots on fighting related abilities. For example top gun skill is 200 and that's that, spend your skillpoints on something else.
In addition players must be prevented from making too bad builds. Who's going to want to play a char with 3 ap?
Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.
Since when has Vederas been some pvp guru ;D Lol, totally no offense to Vederas, I'm no guru myself or anything. Well our pvp is in pretty awful state so balancing it might bear the similarities with remaking, but we can call it what we like.
-
On the topic of Charisma:
One very extreme idea I'd suggest is stopping characters with 1-2 charisma from joining parties. If you build your character like a loner, then you have to be one. I don't see why you should make the 'social' stat rock bottom and expect to be able to group up with other players.
A slightly milder idea is rewarding people for taking more charisma instead of punishing them for taking low charisma.
The obvious way to do this is giving everyone opportunities to obtain NPC followers (ones you don't have to pay for), and making NPC followers more durable. When I play Fallout 2, I probably only kill 40% of the critters myself - the rest is taken care of by my NPCs. We could go further than this, and add Medic NPCs, Outdoorsmen, and so on.
Being able to have F2 style companions that could actually level up would be perfect. Ones that respawn, start out crappy, but eventually become very powerful. And hey, maybe we could even give them personalities.
-
I think rejigging the SPECIAL points, so that you got more to start with - but 7, 8, 9 , 10 took more than one skill point to have - you would probably start seeing more well rounded chars.
As its built now there is little point to having Ch 2+ on a fighting char and you're paying the same amount of points to take Ch 1 to Ch 5 as you are to take I 6 to I 10, or Pe 6 to Pe 10. Doesn't take much to figure which people will choose.
-
Instead of nerfing powerbuilds we could give benefit from being able to craft. Powerbuilds rarely craft anything. So If crafters will get benefit there will be less powerbuilds.
Crafters could have benefit in pvp from special weapons usable by only crafters.
Armorcrafter. Power armor. seriously. only usable by armor crafter. He is pretty much deadmeat with armorcrafting 3, but with power armor he could actually be viable tank in pvp. Why wouldnt anyone else be able to use power armor? Becouse armorcrafters get special training for it. They study the secrets of Power armor and are the only ones smart enuff to use it.
SGcrafter. special weapon (bozar blah blah)
BGcrafter. special weapon (bozar, gatling laser)
EWcrafter. special weapon (gaussweaponry, gatling laser)
Doctor. special drug
just needs some imagination. Buff the crafters, leave powerbuilds alone to suffer not able to use the best eqipment becouse they don't have experience and education for that.
I think rejigging the SPECIAL points, so that you got more to start with - but 7, 8, 9 , 10 took more than one skill point to have - you would probably start seeing more well rounded chars.
They would be more rounded chars BUT, charisma would still be dropt to 1. Even more likely becouse you want to get rid of everything that is not nessessary. So I don't support that idea.
-
I also think the damage or armor needs to be reworked, atm you barely live for 1 or 2 shots even with armor.
-
Imho group playing is simply way too important to be restricted by charisma. I find even current CH restrictions when it comes down to groups totally wrong for MMO. I would like to see a day when CH boosts your abilities but not limit them for those who don't have it. I mean if I choose high CH then I will have easier times as party leader than some "ugly" person but that should not limit "monsters" from leading party and playing with others. I just think that parties/raids and PvE goals should be priorities and everything else should come as second and that counts for PvP as well (or maybe fifty fifty when we compare PvP and PvE). And combat should be balanced also against NPCs not only vs players because right now NPCs are stupid nonlethal clones that represent no challenge what so ever. Only player interaction we got now is some little chitchat in NCR or group PvP in north towns. But when there are more PvE challenges, sharing exp and such then things like CH limits would ruin the game completely. Some of you try to fight against powerbuilds so hard that they want to create absurd limitations just to force people spend their points in something they don't want.
I mean don't look at the game at its current stage. Try to think of it like its already released 1.0 version. At that point main character should be even half year work for regular players and everyone will think twice if he chooses low charisma. But not allowing player who chooses that way to play with others is insanity and defies whole MMO purpose.
-
@up so lets eliminate charisma factor but instead of 33 points to distribute give 24 points so lowering charisma to 1 will not gieving any bonuses to powerbuilds and with 24 points to distribute with CH1 you still can form 10 pplayers groups. Looks okay for me.
-
At that point main character should be even half year work for regular players and everyone will think twice if he chooses low charisma. But not allowing player who chooses that way to play with others is insanity and defies whole MMO purpose.
I think this is one of the best things in fallout. the way you make your character affects the way you play. Making the game more easy and unfalloutish isn't he right way to go. If you are ugly you are better at something but you lack social skills. Making the fonline more gamey makes it lose its immersion. Roleplaying before anything else.
I mean don't look at the game at its current stage.
How do you think game could be improved if you dont look at it at its current stage?
-
Well lots of people ( 100~150 I think) want to keep FOnline as it is - oldschool PvP mmorpg where you kill players in 1-2 shots and loot all thier items.
And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg. Devs are going in way of keeping FOnline as an oldschool PvP mmorpg so there is nothing to try to change here for second group of people. Gotta learn Angel Script and make 3rd Fallout Online version maybe?
-
Well lots of people ( 100~150 I think) want to keep FOnline as it is - oldschool PvP mmorpg where you kill players in 1-2 shots and loot all thier items.
And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg.
Amen
-
And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg.
Yeah, this is what I've always wanted. I just want to put on a leather jacket, pick up a shotgun and go on quests with a few buddies.
-
Hey guys our pvp system should be flexible enough so that it doesn't matter if you didn't put 1 or 3 extra points in certain stat. Stats would only determine your most likely fighting style and profesion, not how powerful you are. Your effectivity should depend mostly of your skills to use the tools given to you.
If cha absolutely has to be included in pvp, then why not have a leader type of build. We already got perks like presence which improve your teammate's rolls around you (except i doubt if it works properly). There could be more perks like that, but their effect on your teammates would depend on their charisma as well. So if you're a cha1 dude led by cha10 dude with all leading related perks, you get only small bonus because your char is incapable of teamwork. However cha5 dude would get much bigger benefit from his leader's perks.
Or for example certain cha and Pe combination would unlock a good perk which would be very important for teamwork. It could be "spotter" which means that your teammates could see when an enemy appears within your FoV. It would be invaluable in team vs team.
Crafters could have benefit in pvp from special weapons usable by only crafters.
Armorcrafter. Power armor. seriously. only usable by armor crafter. He is pretty much deadmeat with armorcrafting 3, but with power armor he could actually be viable tank in pvp. Why wouldnt anyone else be able to use power armor? Becouse armorcrafters get special training for it. They study the secrets of Power armor and are the only ones smart enuff to use it.
This has some point in it, but.
What about the dudes who choose profesions like smallguns 2 and armorer 2? Or guys who just don't take any profesion but don't make a powerbuild either?
Pvp effectivity needs less direct relation to character build and more connection to player's invidual skill so that a player who isn't pvp powerbuild can still do fine if he knows how to play.
Yeah, this is what I've always wanted. I just want to put on a leather jacket, pick up a shotgun and go on quests with a few buddies.
You mean shoot children in the eyes with turbo plasmarifle while wearing advanced powerarmor and being under various drug addictions?
-
Pvp effectivity needs less direct relation to character build and more connection to player's invidual skill so that a player who isn't pvp powerbuild can still do fine if he knows how to play.
Hm, I don't think taking away the importance of in game character performance is particularly desirable. Better would be to remove the advantage powerbuilds have over normal builds - and in an ideal world that would be by boosting other char types up, rather than nerfing Mini/Snipers down.
-
Hm, I don't think taking away the importance of in game character performance is particularly desirable. Better would be to remove the advantage powerbuilds have over normal builds - and in an ideal world that would be by boosting other char types up, rather than nerfing Mini/Snipers down.
So what are the other types? Doctors. Assault-rifle guys. Pistoleers (Real word. Who knew?). Shotgunners. Energy-pistoleers. SMGers. Grenadiers. Meleers. Unarmed. Anyone think of anything else?
-
So what are the other types? Doctors. Assault-rifle guys. Pistoleers (Real word. Who knew?). Shotgunners. Energy-pistoleers. SMGers. Grenadiers. Meleers. Unarmed. Anyone think of anything else?
So what do you mean with types? A guy who's only taken fighting related skills and perks, or a dude who can craft and fight, but his fighting style clearly resembles some specific type? Because players should be allowed to choose their fighting and economic skills and perks without being devastated in pvp.
Hm, I don't think taking away the importance of in game character performance is particularly desirable. Better would be to remove the advantage powerbuilds have over normal builds - and in an ideal world that would be by boosting other char types up, rather than nerfing Mini/Snipers down.
Along with toning down damages and performance potentials in general? Because pvp is no fun if we delived 200dmg packages at each other all day long, no matter how many builds there are.
-
Crafters could have benefit in pvp from special weapon
Armorcrafter. Power armor. seriously. only usable by armor crafter. He is pretty much deadmeat with armorcrafting 3, but with power armor he could actually be viable tank in pvp. Why wouldnt anyone else be able to use power armor? Becouse armorcrafters get special training for it. They study the secrets of Power armor and are the only ones smart enuff to use it.
That acutally sounds pretty good, make it trainable if you have armorer [3] and like 180% repairskill and 130 (+-?) science, that way you won't be able to be a full pvp build but you will still be able to have the best armor ingame ;)
-
Along with toning down damages and performance potentials in general? Because pvp is no fun if we delived 200dmg packages at each other all day long, no matter how many builds there are.
Well, depends who you talk to, see the earlier post about how high damage is a good thing. Personally I'm inclined to agree so long as its so easy to run away and its hard to find a non annoying mechanism to stop you running.
-
The real problem here is that when you reduce some of your stat points you can become exellent at all other things you want.
If something makes you distribute special points in wider area it would balance things out.
Everyone propably knows this but just to wanted to crystalize the problem into 2 sentences. Lets continue from here?
Here is some thoughts about the fix. Need some helps finding flaws and exploits. 2 or more heads is always better than one.
You have to understand that these are only experimental suggestions and no way something I think is balanced, so rather than saying it totally blows don't comment at all if you have nothing to make it better. We all know it is not perfect, no need to repeat that.
[STR 6 gives 1ap bonus move [STR 8 -1 on attack APcost]
[Give STR stat similiar HP gain effect like Endurance has on each level up but a bit smaller.]
Why? Becose doesn't matter how agile you are if you lack strenght you can't move fast. -1 to APcost at STR10 becouse the guy is strenghty that getting a gun like big gun into shooting condition takes less time.
[AG, all points in AG over 8 give only bonus ap to movement, AG10 -1 to attack APcost]
Why? Becouse Making you more agile don't give you any more time to shoot with your weapon. Time and distance doesn't change becouse your guns RoF determines how many times you can shoot when standing still.
[EN 8 gives you 1ap bonus move, EN 10 gives you 1 bonus move]
You also need endurance to move fast
[IN 6 gives you 1 AP]
Becouse to use time and distance travelling you need to be somehow intelligent to realize things and be able to learn from your mistakes
Other SPECIALS could have similiar perk like bonus abilities. When SPECIAL effects only in one thing it's easy to decide where to put points.
But When bonuses are distributed all over he SPECIALS you really need to think what to get. For example you cant be insanely fast moving, fast shooting, TANK.
This is only a rough example as I stated above, deciding what SPECIALS give what bonuses should be faithful to "fluff" and also something
that wouldn't break the rules to hard. This is already breaking the character creation but If left as it is there is really nothing to make
things better.
The idea could be also something totally different, but still related to specials.
-
iicca I like your suggestion and I like it a lot. BUT...
The main problem is to find what will each special boost and nerf (not game content thats for sure) to make it balanced. Because bonus movement is just for TB fights (unless there is some new mechanics introduced that will make it effective to have bonus APs just to move in RT combat too). So f.e.:
ST
Low ST should remain as it is, limits you with weapon choices and mostly combined with weapon handling perk. But ST above average should boost your weapon handling (not perk but an actual weapon handling) = faster reloading, more accurate burst shots (I mean more ST you have more steady your hand is while you pull the trigger etc.). Also as it was mentioned some slight HP boost per level. That may differ from your ST = with ST 1-3 you get +1 hp per lvl, with ST 4-7 you get +2 hp per lvl, and with 8-10 you will get +3 hp per lvl. Or maybe instead 1/2/3 its should be 0/1/2. Anyway more ST should imho equal to more tank like build.
BUT problem with current builds is that when you choose to roll some "class" such as SG sniper or big gunner then you have like every statistic primary and only CH and IN to play around a bit. Imho every build should have like 1-2 primary statistic, 1-2 trash statistic and rest average depending on his goals. Its hard to make it profitable for PvPer to put at least something to his trash stats which are mostly ST/IN/CH. LK 6 is a must cause of perks, AG below 6 is pretty much useless, EN same thing 7/8+, PE 6/7+ and none will put 4+ CH just to chitchat with NPCs. They rather make themselves an alt. So maybe experiment with something radical like talented trait or something like that might help.
-
good stuff
I know its hard, but what wouldnt be? balancing is always hard no matter how you do that.
I forgot the real time totally :D.
AG below 5 shouldn't reduce your AP's. It should reduce your AC. Propably need to forget the bonus move ap's.
-
BUT problem with current builds is that when you choose to roll some "class" such as SG sniper or big gunner then you have like every statistic primary and only CH and IN to play around a bit.
lies... ;>
now depending on build there are only two possible trash stats: luck and (every time) charisma
-
lies... ;>
now depending on build there are only two possible trash stats: luck and (every time) charisma
Lies :D
no matter what your build is (not counting leader). There is always one trash stat charisma.
-
6 Pe, 6 En, 6 Luck are your minimums for perks.
Maybe throw in Str 3 or 4 for SG/BG with weapon handling.
Ch 1 of course, still just a useless stat.
Ag minumum is really 8, I wouldn't like to go any lower than 6 I
so 3 or 4/6/6/1/6/8/6
Then you have the other SPECIAL points to use however you can still come out with something decent at the end.
3 (BG) or 4 (SG/BG with small frame) or 5 (SG with small frame) to play with.
Ch 6 for the win! 8)
-
Ch 6 for the win! 8)
On a side note, I feel a little cheated that with 6 charisma, which I consider a pretty decent investment, I only get two NPC followers.
-
Well, boundries must be somewhere. At least you then have two perks which can give you extra followers.
-
I would like to hear dev opinions on Stat and perk balancing becouse really I want to know if I'm wasting my time thinking these things up or If you have some other rout you wanna take in future considering pvp. Just want to know.
-
Well, boundries must be somewhere. At least you then have two perks which can give you extra followers.
Cha could unlock some nice perks. For example a leader type of guy would be very effective in gang vs gang pvp with all of his buffs. And then the effectivity of the leader would be determined by the cha of his teammates because it's no use to be a leader if the others don't want to be led.
Then we could have this "loner" perk for low cha guys, but it required high int ^_^
-
CH could be used for those party buffs indeed. 6+ CH and maybe some other requirements and you will be able to take "Born to command" perk witch will grant some nasty stuff like +8 AC or +5% dmg up to 2 party members or something like that. Simply make CH usable in PvP too and then you will see those changes. Also I think that when it comes to interaction among players no CH check should be made when you want to group up with others. For NPC followers why not? But not being able to create group just because you lack "inner spark" or in FOnline its more like "you are considered ugly=loner" kills gameplay and whole point of MMO. This game should encourage groups and such but for combat chars (and lets face it, its all about combat) its very hard to enjoy it since you have to always check who has CH char, then wait for that guy if he is not online or doing something else etc.
Whats wrong with "ugly" people playing together? Creating senseless restrictions just to make CH significant will not help. Boost having average or better CH rather than restrict when you lack it.
-
I'm not a fan of artificial buffs from other mmorpgs. Instead of incrased damage Born Commander perk could give increased accuracy, +1AP something that inspires do things better. Leader doesn't increase doing more damage, but increases shooting more accurately moving more hasty and so on. rpg beyond anything else.
-
Boost having average or better CH rather than restrict when you lack it.
That's correct, encourage and boost. Low cha has received way too much punishment and it's not helping. The worst part is that cha got punished in an area where low cha chars don't even participate.
Besides, playing as low cha loner sniper or grumpy Dirty Harry- type of guy sounds completely plausible.
I'm not a fan of artificial buffs from other mmorpgs. Instead of incrased damage Born Commander perk could give increased accuracy, +1AP something that inspires do things better. Leader doesn't increase doing more damage, but increases shooting more accurately moving more hasty and so on. rpg beyond anything else.
You could have more than one cha related combat perks, a wide array, leader is a charisma related build after all. So that a group leader would be invaluable for his team and wanted target for the enemy. Those perks could even work so that you won't get the bonus from your leader if your cha is lower than 3 because your char is too socially restricted.
But you're correct about no direct damage buffs, then again ap and accuracy cause both additional damage in a way. While not completely out of question, some perks could provide just more information for everyone. Like if someone has a "spotter" perk and sees an enemy, everyone in your team sees that enemy because the spotter informs everyone about it. If the spotter spots a mine or a bomb, everyone can see it.
-
Of course there is one obvious advantage for Ch already there, which could naturally be expanded upon. Followers.
Problem being its easy to use alts to get those benefits for your main char, at the moment.
-
Of course there is one obvious advantage for Ch already there, which could naturally be expanded upon. Followers.
Problem being its easy to use alts to get those benefits for your main char, at the moment.
Make mercs disappear with user even if he is offline? Also make them saying "Damn! Some hours ago you was so sexy! But now you're like my granma.", if you've used mentats to hire him/her/them. For example you've hired 3 mercs, but you have only 3 CH, by using x2 mentats. Next time when you'll see them (you'll be in the same location as they're) you will need to come beatiful again, or 2 most oldest merc that you've hired will leave by simple disappearing.
So, now only members of faction who active (online) will have thier mercs at bases. And only mentat-junkie will have them more than need.
-
Make mercs disappear with user even if he is offline? Also make them saying "Damn! Some hours ago you was so sexy! But now you're like my granma.", if you've used mentats to hire him/her/them. For example you've hired 3 mercs, but you have only 3 CH, by using x2 mentats. Next time when you'll see them (you'll be in the same location as they're) you will need to come beatiful again, or 2 most oldest merc that you've hired will leave by simple disappearing.
So, now only members of faction who active (online) will have thier mercs at bases. And only mentat-junkie will have them more than need.
Followers are bugged for sure, but it has nothing to do with their potential in future. One or two extra plasmarifle shots can decide the battle. However mercs can be fooled with mentats just like you said, it's just a matter of if it's supposed to be that way.
Mercs just need to be worked to make them act more reasonably, because now they act in most unwanted ways sometimes.
-
Mercs just need to be worked to make them act more reasonably, because now they act in most unwanted ways sometimes.
Some more automatic features, like:
Aim for the Head
Run away when you get below 25% health
Run away if you run out of ammo
Use super stimpaks on me when I get below 50% health
Would all make a huge difference.
Similarly, companions that respawned after death would make a huge difference.
-
Some more automatic features, like:
Aim for the Head
Run away when you get below 25% health
Run away if you run out of ammo
Use super stimpaks on me when I get below 50% health
Would all make a huge difference.
Similarly, companions that respawned after death would make a huge difference.
+ plus have them inject you with stimpaks if they survive but you get too badly hit, or evacuate you to safety if you die but the merc survives.
If combat wasn't so dependent on first few hits, mercs would be more useful. Right now if you encounter some evil dude who decides to fight you, you might just get instacritted right away and that's that. Even if the merc beats that dude, everybody's stuff are lost.
-
This aint over.
Here's an idea for a new toy for pvp. It's called Autoshoot Field or Overwatch Mode.
Here's how it works: you press some keybind or choose the overwatch mode from your hud. A sector overlayed by red colour is laid where your mouse points. Depending on your weapon, it takes differend ammount of time to deploy this field. When enemy passes this field, he will be shot immediately with good accuracy.
The field's size depends on your gun as seen below.
A person is wielding a pistol. The field is wider but has worse range. Overwatch mode is faster to activate while wielding a pistol.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3117/roflhax.jpg)
A person is wielding a rifle. The field is longer but thinner. Deploying a rifle-field takes longer as it takes longer to turn a long weapon and aim with it. Big gun fields would take even longer to deploy.
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8555/zomghax.jpg)
Other notes about possible aiming, movement and gun readyness:
When running and then suddenly stopping to shoot, you get an accuracy penalty and delay. But enemies will have worse accuracy on you when you run.
When walking, you can shoot almost instantly with medicore accuracy when you meet an enemy.
When stationary, you get almost no acc penalty or delay.
In overwatch mode you get no penalty to acc or delay, but you can't see your surroundings properly.
When aiming, you can spend action points to increase your accuracy. So you get a little delay but your shots will most likely hit.
-
It looks like there are many players with many ideas here. The main problem is, that the output of suggestions are almost zero. It is reasonable, because many of these ideas are in opposite to anothers. So i suggest, we must create some process, and result will be the most acceptable pvp changes accros all players.
At first, i think that we must set a basic principles, ideas over ideas, "PvP constitution". The ideas will anwer us on question, WHAT WE WANT. There will exist many opposing ideas, so we have to make o public vote (but not with obligatory result, IMO).
I.e.:
* Should we balance the current system or desing new one?
* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
* Should economy balance the weapons or not.
* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
* ....
After we collect many ideas of this kind, we should reduce them by eliminating similar, add oposing idea if there is not exist and then make a vote. We will see, in which mantinels players wants to change the game mechanis and we sill also see, if it is possible (you know, democracy has own limits :) ).
After we will complete list of ideas, we should post another ideas, more concrete. These concrete ideas will answer us on question, HOW WE WANT TO ACHIEVE the basic ideas.
Then we can make "competition" with PvP complete changes ideas, and make vote about results. Not because someone want to be better than other, but because his ideas changes will be most similar to basic ideas.. Then we can do some minor changes and test it.
After we will have list of this kind of changes, we (community) will give this change list to developers. Developers will be part of this process, and they can intervene in every time, if they see, that the ideas cant be realized...
-
I think what Lordus said is reasonable and thats the kind of development we as testers should support. Current suggestions are more like hotfixes or simply gadgets to current game but most of them don't see the bigger picture here. I think some serious testing/suggestions/ideas should take place on forums but with proper response from devs. Anyway those elemental questions Lordus pointed out are certainly good way how to start all of this...
-
All this talk is basically useless becouse devs dont interract with the players as far as i know.
We have no idea what goals they have, what parts of the system they want to improve.
It might even be that this is the pvp they want. Easy simple and boring.
Why dont devs want to implement things from fallout tactics etc...
-
engine limitations maybe
-
If the devs'd start to post things like "we want fonline to be like xyz" endless discussions and whinings would start, the whole game will be discussed to death. ;)
All this talk is basically useless becouse devs dont interract with the players as far as i know.
We have no idea what goals they have, what parts of the system they want to improve.
It might even be that this is the pvp they want. Easy simple and boring.
Why dont devs want to implement things from fallout tactics etc...
-
[Bullshit deleted]
I hope they read Suggestion threads at least or the whole section is useless.
Your first warning. /Lexx
-
I definitely don't like this line.
I hope they read Suggestion threads at least or the whole section is useless.
Well sure they read it, but so far there were like five suggestions that have been realized and most of them were minorities.
-
I definitely don't like this line.
I hope they read Suggestion threads at least or the whole section is useless.
You don't like this line? You've modified my quote. I've never wrote that sentence you quoted there.
And I don't like when someone puts words in my mouth. ::)
-
It looks like there are many players with many ideas here. The main problem is, that the output of suggestions are almost zero. It is reasonable, because many of these ideas are in opposite to anothers. So i suggest, we must create some process, and result will be the most acceptable pvp changes accros all players.
At first, i think that we must set a basic principles, ideas over ideas, "PvP constitution". The ideas will anwer us on question, WHAT WE WANT. There will exist many opposing ideas, so we have to make o public vote (but not with obligatory result, IMO).
Good idea, we certainly need some proper and gentlemannish conclave where to discuss things. So far our discussions here have been ravaged with random array of ideas pouring in and what's especially seen in suggestions forums: tactless language. We're not supposed to be like some group of teenages who constantly try to pick on each other of what we just said.
I guess it's just a matter of devs whether they want players to discuss this matter further. Because all we can do here in this thread and type of forum is to send our own ideas and comment them and probably just get lost since our subject is too massive. So far it's been only few people actively participating anyway, basically the whole forum has its around 50 regular users while the majority's voice isn't heard. Whatever they want to even say.
-
So far it's been only few people actively participating anyway, basically the whole forum has its around 50 regular users while the majority's voice isn't heard. Whatever they want to even say.
Yeah, I think at least 50% of the userbase hasn't made a post. And about 75% has made less than five.
-
Well another thought is to have counters to the different types of weapons vs armor. Example - bullets with armor piercing is effective against kelvar armor. Hollow point bullets is effective against light armor, eg. leather armor. Than u also have armor that is good against plasma, laser weapons but bad against bullets. In other words, making more differentiating difference between the different types of guns/beam wpns and armor will make it more difficult to have the ultimate build. Than u have the regular armor that is decent against both type of weapons. In this way, there is no ultimate critical build or big gun build than can dominate all cuz the armor will be the limiting factor here, and u give everyone a fighting chance with the right protection.