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[Elmehdi]

I think this could work well along with a class system, yet preventing people from making powerbuilds and reduce number of alts on the server:

1) Divide all the skills into categories (simply combat and noncombat or more). It could look similar to Van Buren system:


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4996/characterscreenvb.png

2) An overall amount of extra skill points that you get whenever you go up a level is divided by 4 (number of skill categories) and assigned to every category.

Lets say that you get +20 skillpoints per level. It gets divided by 4 and as a result you have 5 skill points to spend in each category of skills.


http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6332/characterscreenvbkopia.png

So the system forces you to spread your skill points more steadily. Exact proportions in which the points gets divided could vary and be determined by a class of a character. So if one is a sniper, he will get more skill points into "combat" and "stealth" categories and less into "science" and "diplomatic", but still he can't make a powerbuild totally ignoring all the skills but one or two.

[Sius]

Elmehdi your suggestion counts with the actual classes right? Like I choose to be sniper and then it affects me ingame. And it follows kinda pre-defined pattern with that skillpoint distribution since you will get +x point to combat and +x point to stealth skills when you rol al sniper. But until there are more sniper types to choose from then this solves nothing. And even if there are like 5 types for each class then its still something that forces you to do something by predefined stuff. Thats nothing I would support (but maybe I got you wrong here).

I've suggested something that does not differs much from current system. You are master of your character in every way and no one is forcing you to spend point on something you completely ignore during your playtime. But as avv pointed out it might be possible to add it without drastic changes but simply with perk variety and combinations with skillpoints requirements it might work. But the way I described it you are limited only by your level ergo count of ability points you can spend on learning new tricks. If its somehow fused with perks/skillpoints then it might work but it still have to follow simple rule: you can't chose better abilities(perks) until you have chosen those weaker and low lvl ones (but again even with 84 max lvl there are only 28 choices how to develop your char).So I still think something like abilities should stand apart from anything else, maybe link it mildly with some perks/specials (such as requirements for high lvl abilities, so in order to learn ability that boosts your throwing range by +3/6/10 hexes you will have to have 110% skill + have ho! perk or something like that) but no close relations should be applied here.

[Elmehdi]

The point of that idea is to make it impossible to pump all available skill points into 1 or 2 skills during the whole game. And yes – it would force people to spread points into something that might not be so useful for them. It deals only with skill points distribution and has nothing to do with perks or ability points or whatsoever. It’ like ok – you are a sniper so you will get more points into combat and stealth but you still have to choose at least two additional skills that might be less of use for you, but will make your character more universal and not PvP powerbuild.

[Sius]

The point of that idea is to make it impossible to pump all available skill points into 1 or 2 skills during the whole game. And yes – it would force people to spread points into something that might not be so useful for them. It deals only with skill points distribution and has nothing to do with perks or ability points or whatsoever. It’ like ok – you are a sniper so you will get more points into combat and stealth but you still have to choose at least two additional skills that might be less of use for you, but will make your character more universal and not PvP powerbuild.

Yes but how do you decide who is a sniper and who is a big gunner? By choosing an actual class or maybe if game will keep track of that where you put your skillpoints then it will boost that section with bonus skillpoints from other sections. But both seems  weird to me. I mean I like games with classes and such but if something like an actual class system should be introduced here then it should be way more sophisticated than just simple skillpoint distribution. And I can already see those wow/diablo comments. Anyway I think forcing people to spend points elsewhere is not the best solution. Instead we should reduce that gap between PvE and PvP. Maybe make basic combat skills accessible by anyone even that rock digging RPer. Also if you choose to roll pure dmg dealing and ignore everything else then your char should look like that. Very good dmg output but useless in everything else. And since we don't have that "else" right now, it should get it done .

[iicca]

So you're saying no to classes, but then you say that the classes are already in the game. This can mean that you're against the current fonline style.

It doesn't matter what's unfalloutish. When it comes to game mechanics, being falloutish is not important because game mechanics have to work properly. Because fallout wasn't designed as multiplayer game, it's not viable to say that mechanics aren't falloutish. If you want to keep the game falloutish, it just means that we keep the same background story.

WHAT? Do you have some kind of need to always intentionally understand peoples typings wrong? If you are smart enuff you know what I ment.

Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.

Try to understand that fallout will never be diablo or wow.

Don't be a smartass please.
---


About the class system. Why do you want it? What will it do better than this system we already have? Fallen earth already has classless system and it has a monthly fee. Works very well and doesn't restrict players.

[Surf]

But he is right.
When developing an Multiplayergame one has to look for correct mechanics etc. into the game engine.
And since the game engine and the mechanics were made for a single player game, there are some changes needed which may seem a bit "unfallouty"  but important for balancing the game a bit more.

Also this thread is about throwing some ideas in and see how those can be handled. Just because someone suggests something it doesn't mean we'll see this tomorrow ingame.

[iicca]

Yes of course changes need to be made, but not in way that would take it away from the rules set already developed.

Also this thread is about throwing some ideas in and see how those can be handled. Such because someone suggests something it doesn't mean we'll see this tomorrow.

Thank god . I thought devs will listen avv

I also think that the reason to play fonline is that it is based on fallout pen n paper rules. Otherwise I could go play any other falloutish game out there. And ofcourse V13 in future (if it ever comes out). Don't break something that works.

[Elmehdi]

Yes but how do you decide who is a sniper and who is a big gunner? By choosing an actual class or maybe if game will keep track of that where you put your skillpoints then it will boost that section with bonus skillpoints from other sections. But both seems  weird to me. I mean I like games with classes and such but if something like an actual class system should be introduced here then it should be way more sophisticated than just simple skillpoint distribution. And I can already see those wow/diablo comments. Anyway I think forcing people to spend points elsewhere is not the best solution. Instead we should reduce that gap between PvE and PvP. Maybe make basic combat skills accessible by anyone even that rock digging RPer. Also if you choose to roll pure dmg dealing and ignore everything else then your char should look like that. Very good dmg output but useless in everything else. And since we don't have that "else" right now, it should get it done .

That’s quite funny because I thought that you meant to choose a class during the character creation. Kinda like at the beginning of the game you choose to be either a wizzard or barbarian or dragonslayer (edit: don't take it seriously ) or whatsoever . I have not much experience in other MMORPGs, ignore this idea then.

Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.

Try to understand that fallout will never be diablo or wow.

Don't be a smartass please.
 

You seem to have quite a narrow understanding of what Fallout is. Firstly it was never supposed to be a multipayer game. This simple fact makes A LOT of changes inevitable. You should as well keep in mind that Fallout itself, even thought it was an epic game, was still far from perfection. There are many ways to make it better - some ideas can be inspired by other successful games (Diablo or WoW too, as you mentioned) and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it works well.

Franlky, I’d be glad if devs were more willing to experiment, even though it might mean to alter a Fallout and see what happens.

[iicca]

Jibberish

You just had to get involved didnt you  

-

Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.

I would leave Fonline for Jagged Alliance mmorpg anyday, becouse it is so much better game from pvp point of view. Too bad there isn't one.

The things that would make pvp hell of a lot more interesting are, more cover and stances. Thats all we need. Now basically its all about two guys trying to race crit each other as stated somewhere in above posts. The whole combat is build around winning the sequence roll.

//sry editing is a bad habbit of mine, but I will continue doing it, sry in advance, you will encounter this many more times. It also keeps you guessing. You never know what hit ya!

[Elmehdi]

You just had to get involved didnt you 

It's a forum. You state your opinion and people respond (or not). If you want to communicate with just one person then use PM option.

EDIT:

Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.

AFAIK Fonline engine is quite elastic and has nothing to do with Falloot 1/2 engine.

BTW:
step 1: Think of what you want to write
step 2: Write it down in a text editor
step 3: Read what you have written
step 4: Decide if what you have written is what you wanted to say, if not go back to step 2
step 5: Send a reply on a forum.

It makes it hard to respond if you keep editing your comments every minute ;-).

[avv]

WHAT? Do you have some kind of need to always intentionally understand peoples typings wrong? If you are smart enuff you know what I ment.

Fallout is fallout becouse it is based on set of rules that you don't seem to have any knowledge of.

Well then, explain those rules. Take your time, the more thoroughly we can discuss them, the easier we find understanding.

About the class system. Why do you want it? What will it do better than this system we already have? Fallen earth already has classless system and it has a monthly fee. Works very well and doesn't restrict players.

Because if done right, this class system might just fix pvp so that player's don't need to make powerbuilds and alts to participate. In fallen earth everyone is a fighter, there's no other roles to play.

Basicly I think you are viewing the game from unrealistic point of view. You can always dream of things happening. But as I have said before: You need to work with the engine that is already there and try to make it work. Altering the whole engine will take moths even years. It might be fun to imagine everything cool. But sorry to break your bubble. Not gonna happen.

Hey dude, with that attitude nothing is going to happen. I bet that if there ever was a time when there was no crafting profesions and someone suggested it, certain people just went "nono that's unfalloutish, fallout didnt have profesions, never going to happen."
Besides, taking clear vision for future and slowly developing the game that way is much more effective than trying to find quick fixes for things. For example we've gone back and forth with exping, crit tables and worldmap travelling speed. That's not progress, it's just either testing things and getting feedback or lack of planning. Pvp needs a goal towards which to aim.
For example guarded mines and npc town reputations are sign that devs are actually planning something and slowly implementing features.

The things that would make pvp hell of a lot more interesting are, more cover and stances. Thats all we need. Now basically its all about two guys trying to race crit each other as stated somewhere in above posts. The whole combat is build around winning the sequence roll.

Only stances wouldn't fix it. It would be just balanced between powerbuilds.

[Sius]

First of all if you don't agree with ideas posted here then don't take them into personal level.
If they look stupid from your point of view don't try to make them look stupid to everyone else. Because using wow/diablo or unfallouty stuff like "arguments" is just... Well try to see it from this perspective: FOnline is not Fallout as we know him. Same with Fallout Tactics or Fallout 3. FOnline is completely different game that is based on something we loved and admired for ages, but it takes it into whole new level. How do you think FT would end up if it did not introduced new "unfallouty" stuff? But it did and it worked really good all together and FOnline has to take same path. It would be naive to think that you can take Fallout 2, overhaul it into MMORPG and think that it will work out just as it is. There are tons of aspects that simply does not exist in single player gaming and therefore Fallout 2 works as SP but taken to MP it fails hard. Starting with character development in 7 steps and ending with terrible game economics there are things devs have to handle in MMO. And since there are known means how to handle them, then why not to take an example from them? You said that we have to work with engine and not try to change it since it may take months. Yeah but how long will it take to create own rules and stuff that will work in MMO environment and still follow original Fallout mechanics without any additions? 

Back to topic:  Elmehdi that abilities stuff I suggested before does not count on an actual class choice. Instead you would develop into some "class" as you play. Also as it was stated before there are classes already and all that passive/active abilities stuff would be just an extension to current system with familiar mechanics we already have for perks/skillpoints.

[iicca]

FOnline is not Fallout as we know him. Same with Fallout Tactics or Fallout 3.

Tactics is a very falloutish tactic game, fallout 3 is a very falloutish rpgfps.

Tactics I can't stand becouse it just blows compared to JA2, fallout 3 was awesome until I realized that devs had taken the short path on character development. Mechanic was there but it was plain too simple and you could actually make a character that can do everything. So they kinda screwed it up.

Well then, explain those rules. Take your time, the more thoroughly we can discuss them, the easier we find understanding.

Oh I see, you are not aware of them. Read fallout bible and then fallout pen n paper rpg rules set. Take your time. Becouse If you don't I can't take anything seriously you are saying. And also it gives your opinions more value to me.

In fallen earth everyone is a fighter, there's no other roles to play.

That is what you are going to get in a system where you don't need to create alts. People are crafters but they decide them selves how heavy in crafting they want to be or how heavy in support they want to be. In fonline everyone is a fighter also, just depends on the palyer choises how heavy in fighting they want to be.

To actually make things balanced there should be a total remake on the action point system. It's too simple. The system should be 100actionpoints system like in ja2 1.13. Then you could have variety in guns rate of fire, reload times, aiming times etc. you name it. If some one doesn't know how it works. Basically every character has 100 action points. The amount of aps every action takes depends on your stats. Guy with high agility takes less actionpoints to move per hex than someone with low agility. Someone with high dexterity takes less time to aim with his weapon than some one with low dex. List goes on.  But that is Jagged Alliance, I don't want fallout to be like that. Instead:

Classes are not the solution. about agility. It effects too many things. There should be another stat for gunhandling that effects on actionpoints used in firing. Dexterity or something similiar. This way you would need to concentrate in a character who moves fast and acts as scout or, something that can fire with his weapon many times(restricted on weapons rate of fire), OR a balance between these. This breaks up the powerbuilding stuff and makes you choose a "class", how you want to play your character. Best of all it's Falloutish

Basically we just need another special to put points in (and full overhaul on the skill system, what specials affect what skills etc). If you don't believe me, do the math.

classes are just restricting and ridiculous. You dont choose a class in real life. What I like about fallout is that it has an immersion. Me walking in wasteland meeting new people and killing new people. More gamey you want to make, less immersion it will have.

[Solar]

I think its a pretty safe bet we will never have classes.

SPECIAL is pretty flexible, if anythings needed its tweeks rather than total redesign, imo.

[avv]

Tactics is a very falloutish tactic game, fallout 3 is a very falloutish rpgfps.

In tactics everyone was fighter, not an armor crafter or trader. Players might had some side abilities like doctor and driver but in the end, everyone was a figher because there was nothing else to do than fight.
Fallout 3 was singleplayer so it's out of the question aswell.

Oh I see, you are not aware of them. Read fallout bible and then fallout pen n paper rpg rules set. Take your time. Becouse If you don't I can't take anything seriously you are saying.

I've actually read fallout bibble, it's just fallout background story and has nothing to do with game mechanics. And fallout pen&paper didn't have profesions like armor crafter which demanded big skillpoint investments. Besides, where is it even stated that fonline must be faithful to some old role play game? What if someone brought up a superb idea that wasn't faithful to fallout, should we just scrap it because of that?

Besides, you represented your Jagged Allience related idea below, which surely is unfalloutish in every way. So what you do is to draw your "unfalloutish" card when it suits you.

That is what you are going to get in a system where you don't need to create alts. People are crafters but they decide them selves how heavy in crafting they want to be or how heavy in support they want to be. In fonline everyone is a fighter also, just depends on the palyer choises how heavy in fighting they want to be.

If you don't decide to go full heavy towards pvp, you'll find yourself far behind.

To actually make things balanced there should be a total remake on the action point system. It's too simple. The system should be 100actionpoints system like in ja2 1.13. Then you could have variety in guns rate of fire, reload times, aiming times etc. you name it. If some one doesn't know how it works. Basically every character has 100 action points. The amount of aps every action takes depends on your stats. Guy with high agility takes less actionpoints to move per hex than someone with low agility. Someone with high dexterity takes less time to aim with his weapon than some one with low dex. List goes on.

Classes are not the solution. about agility. It effects too many things. There should be another stat for gunhandling that effects on actionpoints used in firing. Dexterity or something similiar. This way you would need to concentrate in a character who moves fast and acts as scout or, something that can fire with his weapon many times(restricted on weapons rate of fire), OR a balance between these.

Basically we just need another special to put points in (and full overhaul on the skill system, what specials affect what skills etc). If you don't believe me, do the math.

Doesn't sound too bad honestly. So what you're saying is that shooting big guns cost less AP if you got lots of str. Striking with knife or shooting with pistol costs less if you got lots of AGI?

I think its a pretty safe bet we will never have classes.

SPECIAL is pretty flexible, if anythings needed its tweaks rather than total redesign, imo.

That's why I'm more towards adding more perks and allowing player to have more perk slots and kind of forcing them to pick combat perks and luxury perks so that nobody can create a powerbuild capable of doing only one thing very well.