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[avv]

You really have some kind of a syndrome to always try to be right and find flaws on peoples opinions.

It looks like you were editing your message while I was writing mine. Don't blame me.

Big guns have med range, cost alotmof ap to fire, reduced to hit value at short range
Smg sized weapons have short range and cost less ap to fire
Sniper weapons have very long range, cost alot of ap to fire, have highly reduced to hit value on short ranges becouse of scope.

Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.

So really the classes will solve nothing.

Classes are out of question like Solar said.

We also need overhaul on AC, becouse why the hell does anykind of armor make you less likely to get hit?
AC should be very high on guys with no armor. And guys in Power Armor should have no AC at all.
Armor should only affect in DR only. This would also make hand to hand builds viable.

AC doesn't make you less likely to hit, but it renders some hits useless because they bounce off the armor. It's just that fallout combat doesn't have specific note when the hit is bounced off or just dodged.

After all things can be solved more easily than just making dreams of complicated and "balanced" systems.
PVP will never be extremely well balanced. Not in any world. There is too many modifiers to actually make things balanced.

It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.

[iicca]

Sounds alright for starters. There's just one thing that will trouble big gunners: lack of variety. They got only flamer and improved flamer for close range, small gunners got various shotguns and smgs. Big gunners got only rocket for long range, sg got all kinds of guns with long range. It's much more fun to play sg because of so many guns to choose from. But I guess that's less harmful than having current pvp. Energy weapons are completely differend story, unless the skill was scrapped and energy guns were split in big and small guns.

Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.

Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.
We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.

More balance suggestions on power builds.

Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.

Here is another idea.
4th tag skill. Really shuffles the deck. Then you could actually take 1 combat skill, 2 for crafting and 1 for support. Just an idea, it would need to be tweaked to overall skillpoint gain but anyways. It's something to think of.

It's better to dream of balanced than unbalanced system.

Yeah, but it's useless. You could instead start working on something that could be actually made.

Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.

[Colombo]

I think, that we have to go this way:

1. How we want to play PvP?
2. Which (not classes) roles should character play in battle? (now, we have BG burster, maybe SG burster, Granate thrower and EW+SG snipers)
3. How to make variety between those chars?
a) more perks that support our kind of roles, maybe tree-like, lower perks would support 3 roles a bit, mid perk would support 2 roles more and high perk would support one role much more
b), with weapons that support our kinds of roles
3. balancing and altering scenery to support rethinked way of PvP

[avv]

Variety is not a problem after 3d models are in.

I was just thinking if it's easier to either change the rules so that no new models are required. But if making new models is faster, then it's the way to go. We should choose the path that takes least work because both are working.

Crafting energy weapons needs EW and Science, when small guns for example needs SG, Repair and Science. Doesn't make any sense to me.

That's a minor issue. For example doctor and armorer take much bigger chunk of your pvp efficiency. But our pvp system shouldn't punish anyone severly for deciding not to put all of the skillpoints on combat related skills.

We could also make EW a special weapon type, becouse they are rare! or at least should be. They could be linked to SG and BG. For example
Plasma rifle would need BG with EW, Laser pistol would need SG with EW. So you could only specialize in one kind of EW's. Also the explanation for them needing two combat skills to use would be that they are Xeno and new technology.

Yeh ew should be rare for sure, restricted even.

Reasons we have powerbuilds are that Charisma is an unneeded stat. I don't want to play without ch 3, becouse i don't like alting. But all powerbuilds drop charisma. I suggest that charisma drop should be more lethal game wise. You couldn't enter Vault city becouse you look
too similiar to ghoul for example. To join a faction you need to have enough charisma? There is plenty of things you can do to start people
actually think do they really wanna play with CH1. Taking intelligence 1-4 is really painful, i tried to play hand to hand guy with that but I hated that my character was an incarnation of Forest Gump. It's only psychological but made me wanna redo my character.

Not only charisma, but the fact that crafting related skill can be dumped to another character and the pvp dude can just concentrate all skills on fighting. These are know facts but nerfing charisma even more isn't helping. That's because pvp powerbuilds don't even enter safe towns or involve in charisma related actions, they are only taken when fighting char is needed.

It's actually pretty long hike to end the reign of alts and powerbuilds. First thing that comes to mind is that player is required to perform fighting tasks to get his hands on best crafting recipes, but that's another story and completely beyond the topic of this thread. What we can discuss is how to reduce the effectiveness of pvp builds by making a reasonable pvp theme. This is done by lowering the potential of pvp builds' damage output and resistance so that you cannot spend all your skillpoints and perk slots on fighting related abilities. For example top gun skill is 200 and that's that, spend your skillpoints on something else.

In addition players must be prevented from making too bad builds. Who's going to want to play a char with 3 ap?

Vedaras once said. PVP needs balancing not remaking. I think that is a good point.

Since when has Vederas been some pvp guru  Lol, totally no offense to Vederas, I'm no guru myself or anything. Well our pvp is in pretty awful state so balancing it might bear the similarities with remaking, but we can call it what we like.

[Badger]

On the topic of Charisma:

One very extreme idea I'd suggest is stopping characters with 1-2 charisma from joining parties. If you build your character like a loner, then you have to be one. I don't see why you should make the 'social' stat rock bottom and expect to be able to group up with other players.

A slightly milder idea is rewarding people for taking more charisma instead of punishing them for taking low charisma.

The obvious way to do this is giving everyone opportunities to obtain NPC followers (ones you don't have to pay for), and making NPC followers more durable. When I play Fallout 2, I probably only kill 40% of the critters myself - the rest is taken care of by my NPCs. We could go further than this, and add Medic NPCs, Outdoorsmen, and so on.

Being able to have F2 style companions that could actually level up would be perfect. Ones that respawn, start out crappy, but eventually become very powerful. And hey, maybe we could even give them personalities.

[Solar]

I think rejigging the SPECIAL points, so that you got more to start with - but 7, 8, 9 , 10 took more than one skill point to have - you would probably start seeing more well rounded chars.

As its built now there is little point to having Ch 2+ on a fighting char and you're paying the same amount of points to take Ch 1 to Ch 5 as you are to take I 6 to I 10, or Pe 6 to Pe 10. Doesn't take much to figure which people will choose.

[iicca]

Instead of nerfing powerbuilds we could give benefit from being able to craft. Powerbuilds rarely craft anything. So If crafters will get benefit there will be less powerbuilds.

Crafters could have benefit in pvp from special weapons usable by only crafters.

Armorcrafter. Power armor. seriously. only usable by armor crafter. He is pretty much deadmeat with armorcrafting 3, but with power armor he could actually be viable tank in pvp. Why wouldnt anyone else be able to use power armor? Becouse armorcrafters get special training for it. They study the secrets of Power armor and are the only ones smart enuff to use it.

SGcrafter. special weapon (bozar blah blah)
BGcrafter. special weapon (bozar, gatling laser)
EWcrafter. special weapon (gaussweaponry, gatling laser)
Doctor. special drug

just needs some imagination. Buff the crafters, leave powerbuilds alone to suffer not able to use the best eqipment becouse they don't have experience and education for that.

I think rejigging the SPECIAL points, so that you got more to start with - but 7, 8, 9 , 10 took more than one skill point to have - you would probably start seeing more well rounded chars.

They would be more rounded chars BUT, charisma would still be dropt to 1. Even more likely becouse you want to get rid of everything that is not nessessary. So I don't support that idea.

[geraioptuaer]

I also think the damage or armor needs to be reworked, atm you barely live for 1 or 2 shots even with armor.

[Sius]

Imho group playing is simply way too important to be restricted by charisma. I find even current CH restrictions when it comes down to groups totally wrong for MMO. I would like to see a day when CH boosts your abilities but not limit them for those who don't have it. I mean if I choose high CH then I will have easier times as party leader than some "ugly" person but that should not limit "monsters" from leading party and playing with others. I just think that parties/raids and PvE goals should be priorities and everything else should come as second and that counts for PvP as well (or maybe fifty fifty when we compare PvP and PvE). And combat should be balanced also against NPCs not only vs players because right now NPCs are stupid nonlethal clones that represent no challenge what so ever. Only player interaction we got now is some little chitchat in NCR or group PvP in north towns. But when there are more PvE challenges, sharing exp and such then things like CH limits would ruin the game completely. Some of you try to fight against powerbuilds so hard that they want to create absurd limitations just to force people spend their points in something they don't want.

I mean don't look at the game at its current stage. Try to think of it like its already released 1.0 version. At that point main character should be even half year work for regular players and everyone will think twice if he chooses low charisma. But not allowing player who chooses that way to play with others is insanity and defies whole MMO purpose.

[Frosti]

@up so lets eliminate charisma factor but instead of 33 points to distribute give 24 points so lowering charisma to 1 will not gieving any bonuses to powerbuilds and with 24 points to distribute with CH1 you still can form 10 pplayers groups. Looks okay for me.

[iicca]

At that point main character should be even half year work for regular players and everyone will think twice if he chooses low charisma. But not allowing player who chooses that way to play with others is insanity and defies whole MMO purpose.

I think this is one of the best things in fallout. the way you make your character affects the way you play. Making the game more easy and unfalloutish isn't he right way to go.  If you are ugly you are better at something but you lack social skills. Making the fonline more gamey makes it lose its immersion. Roleplaying before anything else.

I mean don't look at the game at its current stage.

How do you think game could be improved if you dont look at it at its current stage?

[Frosti]

Well lots of people ( 100~150 I think) want to keep FOnline as it is - oldschool PvP mmorpg where you kill players in 1-2 shots and loot all thier items.

And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg. Devs are going in way of keeping FOnline as an oldschool PvP mmorpg so there is nothing to try to change here for second group of people. Gotta learn Angel Script and make 3rd Fallout Online version maybe?

[iicca]

Well lots of people ( 100~150 I think) want to keep FOnline as it is - oldschool PvP mmorpg where you kill players in 1-2 shots and loot all thier items.

And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg.

Amen

[Badger]

And there are other people who want something like Fallout 2 but as an mmorpg.

Yeah, this is what I've always wanted. I just want to put on a leather jacket, pick up a shotgun and go on quests with a few buddies.

[avv]

Hey guys our pvp system should be flexible enough so that it doesn't matter if you didn't put 1 or 3 extra points in certain stat. Stats would only determine your most likely fighting style and profesion, not how powerful you are. Your effectivity should depend mostly of your skills to use the tools given to you.

If cha absolutely has to be included in pvp, then why not have a leader type of build. We already got perks like presence which improve your teammate's rolls around you (except i doubt if it works properly). There could be more perks like that, but their effect on your teammates would depend on their charisma as well. So if you're a cha1 dude led by cha10 dude with all leading related perks,  you get only small bonus because your char is incapable of teamwork. However cha5 dude would get much bigger benefit from his leader's perks.

Or for example certain cha and Pe combination would unlock a good perk which would be very important for teamwork. It could be "spotter" which means that your teammates could see when an enemy appears within your FoV. It would be invaluable in team vs team.

Crafters could have benefit in pvp from special weapons usable by only crafters.

Armorcrafter. Power armor. seriously. only usable by armor crafter. He is pretty much deadmeat with armorcrafting 3, but with power armor he could actually be viable tank in pvp. Why wouldnt anyone else be able to use power armor? Becouse armorcrafters get special training for it. They study the secrets of Power armor and are the only ones smart enuff to use it.

This has some point in it, but.
What about the dudes who choose profesions like smallguns 2 and armorer 2? Or guys who just don't take any profesion but don't make a powerbuild either?

Pvp effectivity needs less direct relation to character build and more connection to player's invidual skill so that a player who isn't pvp powerbuild can still do fine if he knows how to play.

Yeah, this is what I've always wanted. I just want to put on a leather jacket, pick up a shotgun and go on quests with a few buddies.

You mean shoot children in the eyes with turbo plasmarifle while wearing advanced powerarmor and being under various drug addictions?