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[avv]

This thread is about what direction and basics our pvp system should include. Our pvp lacks style and a mainline that sets global rules for it, instead of that it's shortly delivering damage packages of various sizes upon our enemies.

What I mean with style here is what are principles and basics of pvp combat. You can't start making suggestion about buffing single weapon, skill or perk if the whole system is at weak state. There's no way that we can make a good pvp system by just fixing little things here and there if it doesn't have a some main theme which everything is based on. For example we got those shotgun buff threads. Surely shotguns are weak, but where is it said that all guns must be balanced? There's no mainline where to base our theories, except that fonline is based on fallout. But that can mean lots of things or nothing at all because fallout was singleplayer.
Same goes with Lordus' gun improvement thread. It has good visions but sadly things cannot be changed by posting bigass thread full of details into suggestions forum. What we gotta do is to sit down and start throwing ideas. But not ideas like "we gotta have reactive bulletproof vests and exploding armorpiercing poisonbullets". That's too detailed, they are micro features, we gotta go for macro. Throw ideas like: "It must be harder to hit running target than stationary" or "big guns should mainly act as support because deploying them should take longer".

Think of fallout tactics. It would have pretty good starting point for our pvp. Fallout tactics had the problem that when shit hit the fan in realtime, it was hard to micro your squad. But now that everyone only control one character + some possible mercs, it should be easier to perform tactical actions even under stress.

I've got some ideas of my own, but what do others honestly think? Remember this: because the current system is not valid, lacks style and principles, suggestions like "nerf snipers" are not reasonable.

[Izual]

The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p

[Swinglinered]

The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p

Snipers will be even worse with stances and more obstacles.

Flexible/Tunnel Rat/Bonus Move/Silent Running

[Sius]

Snipers will be even worse with stances and more obstacles.
Flexible/Tunnel Rat/Bonus Move/Silent Running

->

Remember this: because the current system is not valid, lacks style and principles, suggestions like "nerf snipers" are not reasonable.

READ BEFORE YOU POST!

The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p

Well its not about chars only, environment counts here too. But I think things like that could upgrade current rock-paper-scissors PvP into something more like chess.
Anyway I lack something like class system, diversity and combinations here. I'm not saying that you should choose your class at the beginning but you should develop as you play. If you choose some path then you should be able to be different from others, have some unique skills that others who took different paths don't have so you could group up and support each other well. Also 10 BG soldiers should equal to 10 different BG soldiers with their own little differences in builds. No clones but shitload of small choices that push your char just a little higher at the food chain.

I think some really basic stuff require some drastic changes here but it has to be done step by step. So lets start with absolutely elemental stuff - character development. I don't know how you but I'm not satisfied with 7 or 5 choices + X skillpoints to distribute. Imho level cap should be raised BUT amount of skillpoints per level and "perk power" should be nerfed equally to that. So lets say if the level cap is 4x21=84, then with 5 IN we would not get 15 skillpoints per level but 15/4 and same goes for perks. We would not get +5% crit chance, but +1% with possibility to take X ranks etc. Imho 21 levels don't provide enough space for character development.

Also there were some talks about additional abilities for our characters. So we would have SPECIAL, perks, skillpoints and abilities. By ability you should imagine something that makes your character differs from others. Abilities should be main recognition sign when we would talk about classes. Every time you level up you should be able to train and learn new abilities. Starting with some really basic roots like offense, defense, support (we talk about PvP only for now). If you decide to roll offense tree then with every level you will be able to go to an NPC (lets say war veteran or someone like that for low lvl abilities) and get trained. You will decide if you want to learn new abilities or get better with those you already know. Some should be passive (affecting your char nonstop) some should be active (possible to use when player decides to but with some recharge time). So maybe an example:
I want to roll a medic => When I level up I will be able to get some training. I will visit my local doctor and for a fee he will show me some tricks. So I will roll support tree. First ability could be passive upgrade of my FA with 5 ranks = 3/6/9/12/15% bonus. Then when I'm more experienced (=some abilities already trained), I'll be able to choose from more and better abilities etc. So maybe pick something from everything or specialize at certain area of interest and so on.
More info about this at http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3723.15.

These are just mine own visions of FOnline and how I would like it. But even when non of this will come true I will most likely stay and play it and with more game content included more interesting it will get.

[RavenousRat]

The best way to improve PvP (and PvE as well) is to make the game support, like FoT, obstacles. And with 3D era this would be possible - your char shall not only be able to stand up. Using covers would actually be great. But maybe I'm too optimistic =p

Oh yes, when you playing at JA2 1.13 with only 1 merc (from B.S.I. of couse), you'll always find good place like trees or crates or something like that, or else these 7346854 guys will burst you to death. But again... it's more and more becomes FT. Of couse it'll be fun to use vehicles in TC, they will use driver-alt, and other PvP-guys will shoot from the car and it'll be fun, till one guy with bazooka explode thier car, etc. It's all tactical suggestions of couse good for PvP, but.. it requires total and very very hard changes.
I know, you simply want to have a chance to avoid attack when a tree between you and attacker, and this tree is situated atleast in 2 hexes from you and over 4-5 hexes from target, so there's great chance that bullet/ray will hit tree instead of you, regardless % to hit, like "concealement" in NWN(and other D&Ds), when even if you have almost 100% to hit, there's another roll 50% that you'll miss a target.

[Izual]

Well its not about chars only, environment counts here too. But I think things like that could upgrade current rock-paper-scissors PvP into something more like chess.

Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.

But again... it's more and more becomes FT. Of couse it'll be fun to use vehicles in TC, they will use driver-alt, and other PvP-guys will shoot from the car and it'll be fun, till one guy with bazooka explode thier car, etc. It's all tactical suggestions of couse good for Pv, but [...]

Well, nobody's talking about implementing anything from Tactics - not only Tactics got characters poses, and I got to say it's not because something isn't in Fallout 2 that it is a bad thing. The game is going to change anyway, with the 3D, and we'll get the possibility to make new poses easily.

but.. it requires total and very very hard changes.

Not really. It's all about : Creating the 3D graphics for the poses, and defining ToHit and Armor Class penalties or bonuses for each pose. That's not a big deal. As far as I can imagine the biggest problem here is that maybe the engine doesn't support it.
Of course all of this is imo and if someone disagrees and has arguments, I'd be happy to hear them.

[RavenousRat]

Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.

Because it's Fallout... it's RPG in post-apocalyptic world, where you kill monster on your path with your gun, insead of sword and fireballs, etc.
And you want to make FT from fallout.
Ehh, I know, you don't even read my posts seriously, because you can't understand what I want to say, but whatever.

[Izual]

I posted before reading your post, look, I edited now

Besides, I don't really understand all the "Fallout Tactics isn't Fallout 2" arguments. I mean, it's just about adding damn characters posing to this game. The ability to sit or to get cover. Is that awful ? Is that soo-fallout-tacticsish ?

[avv]

Anyway I lack something like class system, diversity and combinations here. I'm not saying that you should choose your class at the beginning but you should develop as you play.

That's one way to solve it, it would bring more clarity and meaning for people's lives. Some might feel it more restricting.

Other way is that we make so balanced pvp system that anyone with some weapon skills and knowledge with pvp can just grab an assault rifle and pose a significant threat to anyone.

Yeah, totally agreeing. Basically, fights now are : One guy gets out of cover, he stands in front of the other guy, the one that makes a critical hit the faster wins. Or the one that has one ally (even level 5) wins. You can't hold a position or defend because in the end, attack and defense are exactly the same thing : You stand up in front of another player and both of you are shooting at each other.

Well fotactics was basically like chess. I know a dude is hiding behind sandbags. My teammate sets himself in overwatch mode and set his "field of view" over the sandbags. My character starts to crawl/duckwalk towards the sandbags. If the dude behind the sandbags decides to raise, he gets nailed by my overwatching teammate. If he just lies there, he gets naded by me when I get close enough. That's a victory by strategy and teamwork, not because someone rolled higher on crit table.

[RavenousRat]

I posted before reading your post, look, I edited now

Besides, I don't really understand all the "Fallout Tactics isn't Fallout 2" arguments. I mean, it's just about adding damn characters posing to this game. The ability to sit or to get cover. Is that awful ? Is that soo-fallout-tacticsish ?

This is stupid, when you encounter pack of raiders/mobsters in urban location, and when you, who played fallout, instead of starting to shot-off thier hands, etc. start to run to closes wall/barrel/junk pile, etc. for cover and they (mobster/gangster) laying on ground and there starting stupid commandos shooting at each other like in JA2, that's really really stupid for such game, but.. it's, of couse, only my opinion.

That's good for TC, because it'll be more various, alot possibilities, etc. But.. it's not falloutish, and FT was just an example, because FT isn't RPG, what we're playing, it's strategy, which simply made by fallout-makers.

[Izual]

because FT isn't RPG, what we're playing, it's strategy, which simply made by fallout-makers.

Yes, FoT is a T-RPG, so basically we talk about strategy or tactics. If you're telling me that tactics are bad in this game, and especially in PvP, well, it's your right to disagree with me ! But again, I think improving fights wouldn't really be an issue atm.

[Mars Sultan]

JA2 1.13

+1 for taste. The combat system in JA2 had a lot of neat quirks to it, like during nighttime when your fov is SEVERELY reduced unless you're wearing goggles, and suppressive burst fire which forces you to duck your head and use action points. Items like binoculars and scopes could vastly increase your vision range to scout out the enemy before they see you, you can hop on rooftops to snipe, etc.

Although JA2 is a completely turn-based game (one of the best, I might add), some of its principles on combat and cover mechanics should be given a look if Fonline is headed in this direction.

[geraioptuaer]

Quick question why haven't you used the fallout tactics models for the 3d stuff? It seems the FoT aspects such as races/customisation could be incorporated into Fonline.

[Izual]

Because FoT graphics are just weird ! =o

[skejwen]

FoT graphics are 2d sprites. Also they are in different angles than in Fo1/Fo2.