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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Pozzo on January 12, 2010, 07:05:18 pm
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I know that Big Guns have already been nearfed but I think the game need more adjustments. Maybe some players like me are fed up to see every character walking around with miniguns and bazookas...
So here's some ideas about of me and my mates to balance a little more the game. These are only little adjustments but it could make a difference :
- You can't run while holding a big gun
- Big guns could be heavier to avoid characters having 2 bazookas in each hand and a minigun in the mouth.
- Rise up the strength requirement to use big guns (ST min 8-9)
- Rise up the action points we need to shoot (8 Ap instead of 7 Ap for example)
*waiting for BBS flaming* :)
PS : sorry for my bad english.
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Well... In fact there shouldnt be any other weapons than spears and rocks... but then spears would be overpowered...
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There is a difference between no big guns and everyone with big guns.
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I agree with that thread.
But the main problem, in my humnle opinion, is not their power, but the fact that actually it's easier to find a big guns than finding a small gun.
Maybe some players like me are fed up to see every character walking around with miniguns and bazookas...
That's what I am talking about. Big guns are fine - they are BIG, strong, the way they should be - but ways too common. They just need to be rarer to be fine.
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having 2 bazookas in each hand and a minigun in the mouth.
KUDOS dude, +1000 respect from me for this phrase. ;D ;D
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Upping the required stats to 8-9 means that big gunners will be crippled in pvp because str is wasted stat on ranged chars.l
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/signed
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Or just... up the power of Small Guns.
Small Guns are wayyyy underpowered, they are all - in essence - trash right now. Only good they are for is sniping, and IIRC that was nerfed too.
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I'm not sure upping the power of smallguns is the best way. I'd prefer to see bigguns nerfed by adding some disadvantages, like the first example.
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Not being able to run makes the most sense. It balances out with weaker weapons for pvp since mobility is very important. It would have to affect all "heavy" weapons though like the plasma rifle.
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I repeat again - wipe all gunpowder/energy weapons... leave spear and rocks! Lets make true what Einsten said about IV WW!
Not being able to run makes the most sense. It balances out with weaker weapons for pvp since mobility is very important. It would have to affect all "heavy" weapons though like the plasma rifle.
then metal and combat armours should be nerfed too... both are very heavy...
btw. Pozzo - what nearfed means?
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POZZO I HATE YOU SOOOO MUCH!!!!
Hrem... Well, ok Big Guns are really powerfull, and maybe little bit too much, but i think some of your suggestions will just destroy them.
Actually, i just like your first suggestion, which is a real nerf without destroy the Big Guns.
- You can't run while holding a big gun
Crazy, a Big Gun
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Let me add what I think then.
- You can't run while holding a big gun
Maybe this could depend on strength, or the Weapon Handling perk.
- Big guns could be heavier to avoid characters having 2 bazookas in each hand and a minigun in the mouth.
I don't think this is the right decision, not many people take 2 bazookas with them anyway. Upping the weight would just make them unable to pick up the loot they've earned.
- Rise up the strength requirement to use big guns (ST min 8-9)
Oh man, I hope not, (explained below, SPECIAL point usage problems).
- Rise up the action points we need to shoot (8 Ap instead of 7 Ap for example)
If this ever came to light, no one would pick Big Guns. For the simple reason that you need a high strength in the first place to be able to use them (unless you take Weapon Handling, which mimics +2 Strength). It would simply take too much SPECIAL points in the beginning.
Overall, number 1 seems the most reasonable and understandable.
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I repeat again - wipe all gunpowder/energy weapons... leave spear and rocks! Lets make true what Einsten said about IV WW!
then metal and combat armours should be nerfed too... both are very heavy...
btw. Pozzo - what nearfed means?
There is a huge difference between wearing armour and holding a minigun. American soldiers wear like 100 lbs of combat gear and they can still run, but I doubt anyone could run wielding a gun that's bigger than your entire body.
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No running with minigun sounds Ok.
OR
Maybe decreasing mini's range to 30, avenger to 35...
OR
decreasing number of bullets hit/range...
...could do the thing.
Rocket launchers are pretty good balanced i think.. maybe 8 AP per shot eventually.
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http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=709675&highlight=#709675
WEAPONS
Some random not thought through ideas:
Double accuracy penalties for aimed shots. Having 95% eye shot chance 95% of the time is too unrealistic. This would bring some combat diversity without modifying crits themselves (which is good) and making armors more useful without modifying them too (also good).
Big guns are big and heavy so holding them should make it impossible to run. So no running while having a big gun in an active slot for RT, and double cost of movement in TB while having a BG in either slot. Same goes for energy rifles (even though we might argue about if they are that big).
Energy rifles, being that they are potentially the best weapons would suffer from both these penalties, which might make the game more interesting.
Yay me! Suddenly everyone agrees!
Rocket launchers - how about making reload time equal (or near to) to shot time? After all, reloading a real rocket launcher would take a while, I imagine. If someone wants a rocket salvo, then make him carry many RLs.
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No running with big guns? I'm sure that you even didn't think about it for 5 minutes, but ok.
I was once playing sniper with sharpshooter perk, and that's how I would deal with every biggunner out there if running with big guns was disabled in the game:
1. Catch him on approximately 50 hexes (range of sniper rifle).
2. Shoot in the head - check if he got stunned.
3. If not, just run a bit further to still have range advantage on him (so, about 50 hexes of distance)
4. Repeat 2-3 till he's dead.
100% safe and guaranteed to take out any big gunner.
Do you still think it is a good idea? Lol.
People, all you need to start is thinking about all consequences of something introduced into the game, not just "implement it because it sounds fun".Big guns are superior to small guns in close quarter battles but that's how it is supposed to be. Don't expect to win versus a big gunner if you try to "snipe" him from 10 hexes and obviously, that's how many people are playing their small gunners. Then they die and blame overpowered big guns for everything.
Now if you introduce no running or 9 ST needed to carry a big gun, hardly anyone will use it, so the next topic would be like "Nerf energy weapons because they are too powerful" and so on.
Small guns have to be improved, yes, just look at all those shotguns - they are totally useless in PvP combat, even those supposed to be powerful (for example Pancor Jackhammer).
Speaking about Strength requirements, there is already a difference between 5 ST sniper (or even 4 ST for P90) and 7 ST minigunner, but you just seem to haven't noticed it yet. Also, crafting ammo for a biggunner is one big mess - now think about all those who use small guns, how much ammo they need?
Before wipe and playing as a sniper, I needed at most 40-50 ammo for a major, long battle, if you want to fight that long with a minigunner, you have to bring more than 700-1000 ammo (that's how much of ammo some of our biggunners used in some of recent battles).
What about shooting from big guns? If you don't remember about splash damage, you will likely kill your friends. With a small gun you don't have to worry about that, you can take a good position and shoot from there and not care if someone is between you and your target.
Big guns were nerfed before, now since last wipe BROF is not longer working, so now what? Make minigun shooting 5-round bursts because you can't counter it with your hunting rifle? No, you just need to think for a moment to realise that with a smallgunner you have likely better perception and range than a biggunner and how to use it to win in combat.
If you need to improve or balance something, then waste more than 5 minutes on your ideas, not just "nerf X because I'm using Y".
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Agreed. The main problem is how common they are. But that's what happens when you make everything craftable.
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Well I agree with Kilgore (Edit: And with Badger too =p). As I said in my first post, Big Guns have to deal great damages amounts. The problem with them actually is the fact they're too easy to get, which ends in at least 60% of PvP fighters holding a Rocket Launcher, a Minigun or an ASL. I think it's sad, and it's a real problem.
It'd be exactly the same with APAs everywhere (60% of players wearing an APA). They shouldn't be nerfed, because they are meant to be good armor. But they should get harder to grab, that's my opinion. Do not look in a way to nerf the big guns power, but in a way to nerf the way you get some.
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better perception and range
Disagree.
With 10 perc i rarely see enemy on my max range.
Avenger with 40 range and 250% in BG gives 95% to hit still. I remember one battle when 1 minigunner massacred 3 snipers from 40 hexes coz' no critical hit happened.
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Well I don't know what are you talking about.
With 10 perception and sharpshooter you have 56 hex fov. Most of biggunners are running around with 6-7 perception, which is about 40 hex fov. Now you can use a sniper rifle that has 50 range or even assault rifle that has 45. 250% in BG is ridiculous, I don't who pumps it so high. For SG sniper, even 210-220% is enough to have a decent chance to hit into the eyes/head, as far as I remember.
If 1 biggunner managed to kill 3 snipers from 40 hexes then what can I say... they were likely weak, they should use firstaid, stimpaks to heal, not stand in 1 fucking place as most of people do, still use range advantage to take that BG out. Even without good criticals it should be easy for them to take him out, and if some shit happened because of triple BG critical then well... shit happens? How many times playing a biggunner you will be taken out by some guy with a jacket and hunting rifle just because he managed to stun you with the first shot? It just happens sometimes, one situation is nothing.
And man, if you have really high perception and sharpshooter then BG will just not see you till you hit him because you're out of his fov (at least, you should be).
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You have made some very good points on the subject, Kilgore. I agree with everything you said, to be honest.
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I was once playing sniper with sharpshooter perk, and that's how I would deal with every biggunner out there if running with big guns was disabled in the game:
1. Catch him on approximately 50 hexes (range of sniper rifle).
2. Shoot in the head - check if he got stunned.
3. If not, just run a bit further to still have range advantage on him (so, about 50 hexes of distance)
4. Repeat 2-3 till he's dead.
Yes and that should be the advantage of smallgunners : MOBILITY
People, all you need to start is thinking about all consequences of something introduced into the game, not just "implement it because it sounds fun".
Kilgore maybe you didn't understand that the goal of a beta-test is to...test. We had a lot of features in the past which were bad, so devs set them off and now we know that was bad ideas. When you want to treat other like idiots you should think about we are on a forum and we are here to discuss.
So ok maybe big guns are too easy to find (like Izual said) but I think it is easy to find only for big factions who have a lot of crafters because in PvE we don't loot a lot of big guns now.
So what can be proposed to make it harder to find/craft ?
PS : sorry Archvil I didn"t see your topic before ^^ So maybe you have good ideas from your topic to balance SG/BG/EG ?
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I think it's high time combat balance started. The combat system -works-, but it's nowhere near balanced.
If it was balanced we'd see people using pistols for more than PvE, meleers and unarmed in PvP, and so on. It's a mammoth task, too. It needs to be started, but it'll make the game a lot more satisfying.
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Kilgore maybe you didn't understand that the goal of a beta-test is to...test. We had a lot of features in the past which were bad, so devs set them off and now we know that was bad ideas. When you want to treat other like idiots you should think about we are on a forum and we are here to discuss.
Pozzo you maybe you dont understand that forum is created to discuss . If you feel like an idiot after reading Kilgores posts Im sorry for you.
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I agree with you Badger. It is a big task and maybe devs have no time to work on it (because of crash server, etc.) so we can begin to think about that. I wish that unarmed and melee players could have a chance in PvP.
Maybe a special perk for unarmed/melee that allow them to have a chance to dodge bullets (a perk better than dodger). They should be the most agile and quick players of the game.
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Balancing never done any good for any mod - its wasting too much time. It should be left for very end, just before "final" release.
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Balancing never done any good for any mod - its wasting too much time. It should be left for very end, just before "final" release.
I agree, so much stuff is changed every few updates that 'balance' from before becomes obsolete.
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I agree with you Badger. It is a big task and maybe devs have no time to work on it (because of crash server, etc.) so we can begin to think about that. I wish that unarmed and melee players could have a chance in PvP.
Maybe a special perk for unarmed/melee that allow them to have a chance to dodge bullets (a perk better than dodger). They should be the most agile and quick players of the game.
It's called hth evade and it's broken.
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Kilgore maybe you didn't understand that the goal of a beta-test is to...test. We had a lot of features in the past which were bad, so devs set them off and topic before ^^
Still, I see no point in trying out all ideas various people come up with, just because "they sound fun" or something. Sneak changes sounded fun and made that skill totally useless and now nobody cares about making it useful again (since a long time). Just nerfing everything is not a way to go, especially not in this moment, where devs are dealing with tonnes of other stuff.
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- You can't run while holding a big gun
- Big guns could be heavier to avoid characters having 2 bazookas in each hand and a minigun in the mouth.
- Rise up the strength requirement to use big guns (ST min 8-9)
- Rise up the action points we need to shoot (8 Ap instead of 7 Ap for example
Totally disagree with every single suggestion, and while everyone of them is flawed in thier own special way the main reason i disagree is your mentality
Something is too powerful? Nerf it.. Then what happens to the next most popular firearm in the game emerges? youll want that nerfed and so on and so fourth then we will end up, as someone said all spears and rocks and there will still be a group whiners wanting spears nerfed.
take a look at any popular aspect of the game in the past, sneak? nerfed Theif? nerfed Crits? nerfed crafting? nerfed etc etc You start to drasticly cripple any aspect of the game throwing out the balance and all it leads too is further nerfing, then what do you end up with? A big bundle of fucked up half assed features with no balance. Every small gunner reading your suggestions will be sitting there in glee at the thought of a big slow special gimped player with fuck all range.
Better idea is too make sg more powerful, before wipe a 10mm could be more dangerous then an Avenger in the right surroundings and the sniper rifle was more powerful then a mini gun shot for shot at any given range >5 hex.
My suggestions would be slowly start winding up crits and dmg until some sort of balance is observed. But i have to stress that the issue wont be solved with further blanket changes too pvp systems, PROGRESSION is the key to balance and by makiing a huge amount of changes and implementing them in a single hit your essentially throwing darts blindfolded and hoping that one will hit the board.
Id hate to see a return of the infinite knock down scenerio we had prewipe, current cripple and knockdown rates are good, but the crit dmg for sg maybe should be looked at for better balance.
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Once again i'll remind the idea of possibility for crafters to upgrade (not only) small guns as well as ammo
Every new tier of upgrades would require more skills (last tier would require 250 in a skill such as repair and 150 in small guns)
Also different parts/capabilities could be upgraded (rate of fire, range, damage, accuracy, accesories such as noe exp. mag. and so on)
Such weapons would require more and more, eighter time,skills and resources and would be harder to repair
If such thing were to be implemented then even if you'd see a bluesuit with Mauser you couldn't be sure if he just took it from some dead raider or been tinkering with it so much that is now some sort of a super cannon
Now to balance weapons usage just make small guns upgrades rather effortless in comparing with big guns (and energy weaps)
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Who left the door opened? Some stupid brahma came in and shit all around the place... :P
Get back to your breeding pen! Shoo!
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Maybe we should think about another way to balance weapons, like allowing a hotkey to aim with small guns. Losing time to click on the right part of the body can be annoying : you cant see what happening during that time and its often too late when you click, because of fov properties. What do you think ?
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giving such option to smallguns only would be improper (logically same thing could be applied to energy guns thus improving them too - and that's not an option
We need to improve smallguns (almost) alone
So why not upgrading system?
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I love the logic behind the original post. BGs too strong? Nerf them into oblivion. It doesn't matter that they're basically being used for most important actions only because it's hard to get them enough ammo, just get rid of them. Have you even considered ammo crafting time-damage output ratio? Because if you put it in such terms, SG and EW are vastly superior and lack the immediate punch of UNCRAFTABLE miniguns only in most extreme situations. That aspect aside, let's investigate a little bit further.
Let's assume that BGs really are overpowered. That's always to be understood in comparative terms. So, basically they're overpowered against SG and EW. What was the last balance change? Oh, but of course the crit nerf, because SG and EW were hot shit prewipe. And who were the people whining about SGs being overpowered back then? Same guys that are complaining about BGs right now. But it doesn't end there. Why were SGs overpowered and "required nerfing" in the first place? Oh, here goes the sneak nerf and "no invisibility mode for you, damn PKers!" uttered by the exact same player demographic. And here we are, with Pozzo - a fine specimen of this demographic - starting another shitstorm and saying something about "impending BBS whine". What's waiting at the end of this cycle is rocks and spears, as Skejwen rightfully pointed out.
Well, I won't speak for the entire BBS, but I've always been saying that it's way better to learn the game than aim at breaking the aspect which is frustrating or hard to master for you at the moment. Moreover, I find it curious that BGs are being targeted especially since they fail hard when compared with throwing as far as possible damage output is concerned. But then again it becomes less mind-boggling if you consider the fact that DA generally likes dynamic BG burst play and NA likes sniping, rocket launchers and throwing. So, in the end it all comes down to dirty little faction politics instead of real concern for gameplay mechanics which actually are mostly fine right now, as Kilgore and Aryan have pointed out.
Maybe we should think about another way to balance weapons, like allowing a hotkey to aim with small guns. Losing time to click on the right part of the body can be annoying : you cant see what happening during that time and its often too late when you click, because of fov properties. What do you think ?
That would be the obvious (and easiest) solution, if any solution is needed at all. Moreover, it'd give dishonest players less opportunities to cheat and somewhat improve the odds for people with worse reflexes - so I'd say it's the proper way to go and the most important thing for PvP at the moment.
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Hahaha dude was totally right *bbs flame on!!* hahaha. anyways the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.
At the moment surviving a direct hit by a minigun or rocket is a difficult task for anyone under 150 hp and not wearing at least metal armor mk 2, and guess what miniguns are freakin everywhere, 90% of caravans i run into have minigunners.
i really do think someone loaded up with a minigun and rocket launcher shouldnt be able to run while wearing metal armor or better, it does not make any sense,
id like to see any of you put on combat armor, strap a mini and a rocket launcher to your back along with 400 round of 5mm and 20 rockets and run more then a block that is if you can even move. im for raising the strength requirement because it makes sense, and of course people who use them all the time are gonna complain, noo noo noo not my miniguns noo, now normal people have a chance nooo.
I hope this stuff actually comes to pass because it will make the game 1000000% better.
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the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.
This is one point I think is worth considering. I don't necessarily believe that the BBS or whatever are arguing against this for their own benefit.
I do, however, believe that having the beta test gameplay this similar to the final game does make people biased. If you are playing the game as you would on release, you get used to certain things and come to rely on certain gameplay elements that you like. If someone threatens to take those away, of course you're going to respond angrily. Food for thought. (http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-1641.png)
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Hahaha dude was totally right *bbs flame on!!* hahaha. anyways the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.
At the moment surviving a direct hit by a minigun or rocket is a difficult task for anyone under 150 hp and not wearing at least metal armor mk 2
What a splendid display of knowledge of combat mechanics! Too bad it's entirely false ;D Oh, and I've been cut down by LasRifle fire from 30 hexes+ - single shot, 185 dmg+, wearing Combat or Metal Armor. Let's see a Minigun do THAT.
i really do think someone loaded up with a minigun and rocket launcher shouldnt be able to run while wearing metal armor or better, it does not make any sense,
id like to see any of you put on combat armor, strap a mini and a rocket launcher to your back along with 400 round of 5mm and 20 rockets and run more then a block that is if you can even move.
Fallout Online soldier/raider/whatever:
Minigun + Rocket Launcher + Combat Armor - 28 kg.
Ammo - let's say 15 kg. That's 43 kg for you.
Real world USMC infantryman:
M16A4 - 3.5 kg
8 loaded magazines - 4 kg
FGM-148 Javelin, loaded - 18 kg
MTV tactical vest with ballistic plates and ACH helmet - 15 kg
Combat boots, uniform, LBE gear, camelback - about 10 kg.
That's 50,5 kg for you.
So, basically, you're saying real world Marines can't run a block in combat. Or even are unable to move. That's, uhm, interesting.
im for raising the strength requirement because it makes sense, and of course people who use them all the time are gonna complain, noo noo noo not my miniguns noo, now normal people have a chance nooo.
I hope this stuff actually comes to pass because it will make the game 1000000% better.
Here's a protip for you. Make a Minigun build. Too lazy for that, or too scared that you're going to suck with it anyway?
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I don't think theres really much of a problem with miniguns, outside of Caravans giving them up (Caravans having Miniguns has always been a stupid idea both thematically and balance-wise) - if anything they could do with having their ammo being not quite so tough to produce.
Perhaps RL could be argued to be too good - They have great DPS, great Range but suffer from being clumsy in PvP.
I'm in the camp of just making them more rare/more expensive to maintain, rather than nerfing their power.
On the other hand SG could well do with a little bit of boosting up compared to EW and BG. Energy weapons seem OK, so boosting criticals probably isn't the answer - which leaves enhancing the SG themselves up a little bit.
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"Energy weapons seem OK" - heh not exacly, try play pvp with LASER sniper vs metalarmors
in my option there is no balance in pvp
biggunz>>smallgunz>energy
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What a splendid display of knowledge of combat mechanics! Too bad it's entirely false ;D Oh, and I've been cut down by LasRifle fire from 30 hexes+ - single shot, 185 dmg+, wearing Combat or Metal Armor. Let's see a Minigun do THAT.
Fallout Online soldier/raider/whatever:
Minigun + Rocket Launcher + Combat Armor - 28 kg.
Ammo - let's say 15 kg. That's 43 kg for you.
Real world USMC infantryman:
M16A4 - 3.5 kg
8 loaded magazines - 4 kg
FGM-148 Javelin, loaded - 18 kg
MTV tactical vest with ballistic plates and ACH helmet - 15 kg
Combat boots, uniform, LBE gear, camelback - about 10 kg.
That's 50,5 kg for you.
So, basically, you're saying real world Marines can't run a block in combat. Or even are unable to move. That's, uhm, interesting.
Here's a protip for you. Make a Minigun build. Too lazy for that, or too scared that you're going to suck with it anyway?
heres a protip for you, ive made a character that uses big guns and its boring as hell, it takes the skill out of the game for me, its like shooting a rabbit with a tank.. effing overkill, and as for you weight assumptions im not figuring in what actual marines carry, im figuring that a minigun thats about 5 feet long and metal as hell is going to be fucking heavy, along with metal armor which is going to be heavier then combat armor and then add 500 rounds of 5mm ammo and a rocket launcher with a bunch of rockets, sure you can maybe move around but when you factor in how much room it would take up and that you have to move around in a DESERT with all that shit its not gonna happen, also use lbs i dunno about your kgs, im an american we dont do kilograms and metric crap.
also i cant tell you how many times ive been one shotted by a minigun, i got hit for 200 pts, insta dead. oh and another problem is your arent factoring in the 20 guns youve got in your inventory from looting people. in the end you wind up with an assload more weight then a real soldier cause a real soldier doesent loot every thing he finds.
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heres a protip for you, ive made a character that uses big guns and its boring as hell, it takes the skill out of the game for me, its like shooting a rabbit with a tank.. effing overkill, and as for you weight assumptions im not figuring in what actual marines carry, im figuring that a minigun thats about 5 feet long and metal as hell is going to be fucking heavy,
Whether you like it or not, a Minigun in Fallout is an equivalent of a general purpose machinegun irl. It weights more or less 33% more than an LSW, which is an equivalent of squad automatic rifle. Don't even start with the "but Miniguns are SO BIG", because the idea of an individual being able to fire one without some sort of a mount is even more ridiculous than the idea of running with this kind of a weapon. If you follow the Fallout conventions, it's a GPMG. And yes, people do run with GPMGs no problem. As far as your little skill rant is concerned - I've been playing and enjoying both BG and EW builds and doing more or less equally well with both. The thing you seem to be missing is the fact that a sniper is going to win at sniper game and a minigunner is going to win at close quarters. You should learn to appreciate those little differences and adjust your tactics instead of whining.
along with metal armor which is going to be heavier then combat armor and then add 500 rounds of 5mm ammo and a rocket launcher with a bunch of rockets, sure you can maybe move around but when you factor in how much room it would take up and that you have to move around in a DESERT with all that shit its not gonna happen, also use lbs i dunno about your kgs, im an american we dont do kilograms and metric crap.
Too bad FO uses kilograms and metric crap. And no, it's not really less cumbersome than a real-life combat load - and since people have been fighting in the desert no problem for years, your points are moot.
also i cant tell you how many times ive been one shotted by a minigun, i got hit for 200 pts, insta dead.
Distance is the issue you're not taking into account here.
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Whether you like it or not, a Minigun in Fallout is an equivalent of a general purpose machinegun irl. It weights more or less 33% more than an LSW, which is an equivalent of squad automatic rifle. And yes, people do run with GPMGs no problem. As far as your little skill rant is concerned - I've been playing and enjoying both BG and EW builds and doing more or less equally well with both. The thing you seem to be missing is the fact that a sniper is going to win at sniper game and a minigunner is going to win at close quarters. You should learn to appreciate those little differences and adjust your tactics instead of whining.
Too bad FO uses kilograms and metric crap. And no, it's not really less cumbersome than a real-life combat load - and since people have been fighting in the desert no problem for years, your points are moot.
Distance is the issue you're not taking into account here.
you seem to avoid the facts like your going to be packing up way more then a real life combat load in the end, so yes it does matter.
I take distance into account and being accurate with a big ass minigun is not an easy thing to, as a matter of fact i dont think youll ever see a real life soilder running around with anything similar to the minigun in fallout, also distance dosent matter much when you get spawned on a map thas small as hell, no matter what your still dead.
it would cause to much friendly fire and people would be dead on both sides in a war. and the machine gun equivalent in fallout is a goddamn machine gun, there are multiple different ones, heavy gunners in every game are always SLOWER, STRONGER, and are able to make and take more damage due to them being super strong. this is in every game where there is a big gunner class, also i have to point out anytime you see anyone using a minigun in concept art for fallout they are either a mutant, or in power armor, because it would take extra ordinary strength to run around with a giant minigun.
oh and the people that fight in the desert that are from there dont run around in combat armor and shit, they run around in their clothes because its easier and you can move faster,
im really glad that as soon as anyone has a differing opinion than you they are automatically whining, i bet your one of those people that gets walked all over in the real world so you have to take out your aggression on other people online, go make some real friends dude, lighten the hell up.
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you seem to avoid the facts like your going to be packing up way more then a real life combat load in the end, so yes it does matter.
I take distance into account and being accurate with a big ass minigun is not an easy thing to, as a matter of fact i dont think youll ever see a real life soilder running around wiht anything similar to the minigun in fallout, it would cause to much friendly fire and people would be dead on both sides in a war. and the machine gun equivalent in fallout is a goddamn machine gun, there are multiple different ones, heavy gunners in every game are always SLOWER, STRONGER, and are able to make more damage. this is in every game where there is a big gunner class.
The problem with your way of thinking is that you're applying real world/other game ideas to a Fallout minigun. The problem with that is that a real world M-134 weights 30 kg without ammunition and is a vehicle mounted weapon, while in Fallout it weights 12 kg (that's more or less the weight of a normal machinegun) and can be deployed by and individual in every Fallout game. If Black Isle wanted the Minigun to be a cumbersome weapon you make it out to be, they'd simply implement it in their games. Somehow, they didn't - they made it a slightly heavier version of the M60.
oh and the people that fight in the desert that are from there dont run around in combat armor and shit, they run around in their clothes because its easier and you can move faster,
That's funny, because the ones that are actually successful there (you know, casualty rates etc.) wear combat armor and use some damn heavy equipment.
im really glad that as soon as anyone has a differing opinion than you they are automatically whining, i bet your one of those people that gets walked all over in the real world so you have to take out your aggression on other people online, go make some real friends dude, lighten the hell up.
First of all, you're the one that's been taking it personnal ever since your first post. Moreover, yes, you are whining - because all the content of your posts is "hahahah BGs are too powerful" which is your subjective (and, as Kilgore said, wrong) opinion and "real miniguns are too heavy and cumbersome for that" which could be considered a valid argument if not for the fact that you've been proven the miniguns in Fallout are a different weapon class.
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The solution here is not crripling the bigguns.
The way the devs went seems to be the right one: limit the ways how to get them. If you are ready to fight with the combat armor and minigun, you must be ready to loose them. Yes, the minigunner is quite a strong build and average minugunner is probably gonna kill average small gunner. But smal gunner had to invest much less into his equip and dont forget that exping bigguner is much more expensive then exping smallgunner. And top tier PvP builds, the diffrences are preety small. But most people simply dont know how to play as a sniper(which is the purpose of smallgunner).
All those reality argument here are invalid, since in reality you wouldnt probably survive five shots from hunting rifle to the head. So u cant run for unlimited time like u can in fonline. So u have to eat and drink...
So, in the end it all comes down to dirty little faction politics instead of real concern for gameplay mechanics
Paranoia
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bottom line is this isnt a "the game is going to work this way" thread, its a suggestion thread. I can already tell what kind of confrontational person you are just be your line "your opinion is wrong" its an opinion and its mine, also this games creators seem to be striving to add a sense of realism to their game via cooldowns and other things because its unrealistic to do certain things, so why dont you take the high road for once in your life and just admit this is your opinion and its your right, i never said hahahah big guns are to powerfull, i think people would have to have more power to wield them, leave them the way they are whatever but your going to lack in other areas if you decide to go that route, thats just the way i view it. so instead of flaming me cause you think im whining grow up and start respecting other peoples ideas.
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bottom line is this isnt a "the game is going to work this way" thread, its a suggestion thread. I can already tell what kind of confrontational person you are just be your line "your opinion is wrong" its an opinion and its mine, also this games creators seem to be striving to add a sense of realism to their game via cooldowns and other things because its unrealistic to do certain things, so why dont you take the high road for once in your life and just admit this is your opinion and its your right, i never said hahahah big guns are to powerfull, i think people would have to have more power to wield them, leave them the way they are whatever but your going to lack in other areas if you decide to go that route, thats just the way i view it. so instead of flaming me cause you think im whining grow up and start respecting other peoples ideas.
Well, I'm just sharing my opinion on your opinion... it's my right after all, as an American you should at least understand that, lol. But then again perhaps I should stop feeding you, a person telling me to "take the high road for once in my life" and then accusing me of being a confrontational person is probably not worth my time.
i never said hahahah big guns are to powerfull, i think people would have to have more power to wield them, leave them the way they are whatever but your going to lack in other areas if you decide to go that route, thats just the way i view it
You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence. Should they be left they way they are, or should people have to have more power to wield them? Moreover, you're contradicting what you've said before - you did state that BGs don't require any player skill in a previous post, therefore implying that they are too powerful. Not only that, but you're also spreading false information - BG builds require more Str points than SG or EW builds, so they're already "lacking in other areas if they decide to go that route".
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hmm youd make a good republican, your very adept at taking what people say and using it out of context and twisting it to use against them, when i said it doseent take skill to use a big gun its easy to interpret that how you did but I mean in the sense that its all point click shoot, theres no tactical thinking that goes into using big guns, actual skill in playing the game, not having skills on your character. any goober can use a rocket launcher or a mini and be hot shit, its just a fact of the game. when i said people should have to be more powerfull to use miniguns i meant as in strength wise, not skill wise. I understand being from wherever your from you dont get the subtleties of the langauge and have to have someone interpret for you what they mean, but whatever, think or say what you want but the bottom line is the only people that agree with you are the people that play like you. so in summation say whatever you want, i dont have any more time to spare for this shit, im gonna go make a chesse sandwhich and enjoy my day. PEACE OUT.
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hmm youd make a good republican, your very adept at taking what people say and using it out of context and twisting it to use against them, when i said it doseent take skill to use a big gun its easy to interpret that how you did but I mean in the sense that its all point click shoot, theres no tactical thinking that goes into using big guns, actual skill in playing the game, not having skills on your character. any goober can use a rocket launcher or a mini and be hot shit, its just a fact of the game.
So I guess I'll be hearing about your Minigun exploits soon, eh? If everyone can be "hot shit", how come the most respected and famous big gunners fill a more or less closed list?
when i said people should have to be more powerfull to use miniguns i meant as in strength wise, not skill wise.
And pray, what might the difference be? More powerful character = more points spent in Str (which is a dumpstat for a PvP char) = harder game = requires more "powerful" player.
I understand being from wherever your from you dont get the subtleties of the langauge and have to have someone interpret for you what they mean, but whatever, think or say what you want but the bottom line is the only people that agree with you are the people that play like you. so in summation say whatever you want, i dont have any more time to spare for this shit, im gonna go make a chesse sandwhich and enjoy my day. PEACE OUT.
If I were looking for an interpreter, I'd certainly keep away from people who don't really get the subtleties of their mother tongue (as proven above), ie. you. Have a good day, kind sir.
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Your messin up my cheese sandwich time for this, your scathing remarks burnt a hole in my soul boo hoo, is that what you want? your a sad sad man, I think its funny you think people respect you, as far as I could tell the only people that "respect" you are your cronies, everyone else hates you boat.
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also distance dosent matter much when you get spawned on a map thas small as hell, no matter what your still dead.
Dude you must give up PvP or practice more. Every single northern map (Klamath, Den, Redding, Gecko, BH, Modoc) has many areas where sniper character can be viable, you just seem to spread old shit about invincible exit grid campers everywhere or to be one of those players that "snipe" from 10 hexes then are surprised because someone with minigun has turned them into a pile of meat.
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NO CHANGE !
And soldier can run with minigun , if you click to run he holding minigun ...Omfg...
If you say '' SG is havent power than BG '' play BG and stop cry.
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Dude you must give up PvP or practice more. Every single northern map (Klamath, Den, Redding, Gecko, BH, Modoc) has many areas where sniper character can be viable, you just seem to spread old shit about invincible exit grid campers everywhere or to be one of those players that "snipe" from 10 hexes then are surprised because someone with minigun has turned them into a pile of meat.
im not talkin about pvp, im talking about spawning on a small desert map surrounded by vault city patrols and the like all of whom carry miniguns and open fire right away on me not leaving me a chance to actually do anything except for get blown to pieces because its impossible to outrange them in time no matter your ap or whatever.
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I didnt read all, too boring. But I'm sure game will be funny soon, with everyone using BG. Be sure about that.
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im not talkin about pvp, im talking about spawning on a small desert map surrounded by vault city patrols and the like all of whom carry miniguns and open fire right away on me not leaving me a chance to actually do anything except for get blown to pieces because its impossible to outrange them in time no matter your ap or whatever.
But in other way - if you spawn on large distance - sniper small gunner will be overpowered compared to big gunner who will be shoot to death before he reach his weapon effective distance (in turn based mode - and here comes idea about removing turn based mode from game- but then it will be run and gun like "Quake").
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except a buttload of perks are made worthless by realtime play, if someone tailor builds a character with say an added movement perk and blah blah its only usefull in turnbased so you would be punishing any player that didnt wanna play laggy broken real time.
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I didnt read all, too boring. But I'm sure game will be funny soon, with everyone using BG. Be sure about that.
I bet it will be a lot more interesting if everyone uses hunting rifles.
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I'd prefer some diversity, but you retard just cant understand that.
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I'd prefer some diversity, but you retard just cant understand that.
... so, in the name of diversity you want to remove big guns the same way sneak was removed? Way to go, bro!
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Not at all, Bigguns are vital part of the gameplay. Just try to avoid everyone to use it.
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Not at all, Bigguns are vital part of the gameplay. Just try to avoid everyone to use it.
The thing is it's more of a fashion/personnal preference than anything else. A few weeks ago everyone was running with sniper rifles/laser rifles/plasma rifles/rocket launchers. Hell, you could see a lot of those builds in the Necropolis event. What balance changes occured? Basically, none. And suddenly a group of people is all like "let's nerf Big Guns cause they're too strong"... I mean, wtf? Where were those people before? Most of the ideas presented here are ridiculous, and I didn't see a single objective argument for a balance change - it's all opinions and no facts. Curiously enough, the first dude to say something constructive and true to the reality of the game was Kilgore, whom you cared to call a retard. What the hell, people, just what the hell.
EDIT:
How come all those attempts at "rebalancing" the game are basically partisan actions of individuals distraught by something that happened to them in game? Get a scientific approach if you want to tinkle with the endgame PvP. Record at least 10 different engagements in varying cities, determine how range and wounds (ie. crippled eyes or hands) influence damage output of the most successful players and count how much damage each typical build is able to dish out. Then divide the damage by the ammount of resources (would be best to use time units) required to craft/aquire a supply of ammo necessary for such an engagement to determine how cost-effective a given weapon is. That would be the correct way of doing it, not some bullshit posts like "minigun strong, lasrifle weak" based on foundations that are questionable to say the least.
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Now that everyone has enough ressources to have full BG team, we can see the problems of these weapons. Not because you are using it. Because everyone is using it. Anyway, that's a suggestion. You're against ? No problem, just stop to defend your position just because you cant play anything else.
Edit : Oh yeah. So, because you feel that you spent enough hours on no-life crafting, you have the right to have the best weapons all time ? We dont have all the same time to play, but we dont want to be penalized because of that.
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Now that everyone has enough ressources to have full BG team, we can see the problems of these weapons. Not because you are using it. Because everyone is using it. Anyway, that's a suggestion. You're against ? No problem, just stop to defend your position just because you cant play anything else.
My powerbuild is an EW sniper. And we were talking about the game, not me, yes? The fact that everyone is making a full BG team does not necessarily mean BG teams are the only way to go, it means that everyone is making a full BG team. You need more evidence to sustain an argument like that. Learn some logics. And no, saying your oponent in the discussion is a retard or doesn't know how to play anything else is not valid evidence. It's simply you being rude for no reason.
Edit : Oh yeah. So, because you feel that you spent enough hours on no-life crafting, you have the right to have the best weapons all time ? We dont have all the same time to play, but we dont want to be penalized because of that.
Actually, that's the way this game works. Just think what's at the different side of this spectrum - Gauss Rifles for everyone for free, instant 21 lvls? With an approach like that you might try playing Fallout Tactics instead. It's all easy and effortless there. Besides if you think that crafting takes too much time, maybe you should try blaming crafting system instead of the weapons.
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When I said you, I meant BBS. Because, of course, it's about that. Your lyric way of talking is just showing me one thing : you and your mates are happy with your minigun squad, and dont wanna balanced diversity at all. Bigguns are more powerful than anything else and need to be rebalanced, only an interested can say the contrary. Anyway, the devs will make the difference.
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"Energy weapons seem OK" - heh not exacly, try play pvp with LASER sniper vs metalarmors
in my option there is no balance in pvp
biggunz>>smallgunz>energy
Absolutely true, against metal armor, the nerf of EW is too strong for now imho (even MSH gave up his sniper energy for light support weapon).
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When I said you, I meant BBS. Because, of course, it's about that. Your lyric way of talking is just showing me one thing : you and your mates are happy with your minigun squad, and dont wanna balanced diversity at all. Bigguns are more powerful than anything else and need to be rebalanced, only an interested can say the contrary. Anyway, the devs will make the difference.
And here we go again. I told you, I want MATHEMATICAL EVIDENCE for every change to the weapon specs. It's the REASONABLE thing to do and it's going to improve the balance of the game instead of rocking it back and forth. One would have to be batshit insane to question such approach - or have a personnal agenda.
You, on the other hand, are mumbling about BBS, spouting your SUBJECTIVE opinions like you have a monopoly for truth and generally providing evidence for my statement that this thread is about muddy faction politics instead of improving the game. Because really, if you nerf BGs, EWs and SGs are coming out on top - and we're good with both, so sorry no bonus.
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Not at all, I just think that Big guns are overpowered and need some negative point. Atm, you can do everything with bigguns.. Far fights, close fights, splash damage... With the future bozar you may be able to snipe in the eyes too... (need to be seen)
We have enough of biggunners to feel these disproportions. We purpose to think about some way to make it more fair, and who comes to say its bullshit ? BBS ! So, I automatically think about the reasons...
I would be happy to be wrong. So now, let's head back to the discussion. And if its too early to talk about, lets wait some more days/weeks and see how the pvp is going.
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Not at all, I just think that Big guns are overpowered and need some negative point. Atm, you can do everything with bigguns.. Far fights, close fights, splash damage... With the future bozar you may be able to snipe in the eyes too... (need to be seen)
We have enough of biggunners to feel these disproportions. We purpose to think about some way to make it more fair, and who comes to say its bullshit ? BBS ! So, I automatically think about the reasons...
If you're so right why are you so scared of providing actual, irrefutable evidence for your claims? Why "we purpose to think", "we feel the disproportions" instead of proof? Because what you're saying right now is "NA is always right, BBS is always wrong" and "we want it fair" - whatever that last claim might mean when you say it.
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I didnt make a study about BG. I just play and see.
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Why do all threads have to turn into a DA/NA war ?
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eh hopefull the wipe takes care of the whole NA/DA thing. im not a member of either group and wouldnt want to be. they got more drama than a 12 o'clock soap opera everyday of the week.
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Why do all threads have to turn into a DA/NA war ?
There's an answer for ya:
*waiting for BBS flaming*
... if people didn't make such dumb remarks everywhere and sticked to the topic the forums would be much healthier.
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So, in the end it all comes down to dirty little faction politics instead of real concern for gameplay mechanics
Or that. Stick to the topic please, it was actully quite interesting one before the flame emerged.
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Here's something on topic:
With Avenger Minigun (assumed 2xBRD taken) at point blank (assumed that every bullet hits) vs Brotherhood Armor (with 2xToughness Taken) you will deal:
72-108 (90 Average) DMG for 6 AP(assumed that FS was taken).
With HKP90C in the same scenario:
60-84 (72 Average) DMG for 4 AP
So if no crits occur and you have at least 216 HP HKP90C will beat Avenger...
But I agree that in general BG are a little overpowered...
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Big guns are the dominant force in PvP. If one combat style is significantly dominant over the others, it's because it's more effective. And BG is at the moment, hands down. The reason we see BG PvP is the same reason we never see hand to hand PvP. Whether it's because of availability, damage or raw power is to be debated.
Also, I vote the previous 20 posts above me get junked. Learn some manners and how to discuss like adults, people.
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The thing is it's more of a fashion/personnal preference than anything else. A few weeks ago everyone was running with sniper rifles/laser rifles/plasma rifles/rocket launchers. Hell, you could see a lot of those builds in the Necropolis event. What balance changes occured? Basically, none. And suddenly a group of people is all like "let's nerf Big Guns cause they're too strong"... I mean, wtf? Where were those people before? Most of the ideas presented here are ridiculous, and I didn't see a single objective argument for a balance change - it's all opinions and no facts. Curiously enough, the first dude to say something constructive and true to the reality of the game was Kilgore, whom you cared to call a retard. What the hell, people, just what the hell.
EDIT:
How come all those attempts at "rebalancing" the game are basically partisan actions of individuals distraught by something that happened to them in game? Get a scientific approach if you want to tinkle with the endgame PvP. Record at least 10 different engagements in varying cities, determine how range and wounds (ie. crippled eyes or hands) influence damage output of the most successful players and count how much damage each typical build is able to dish out. Then divide the damage by the ammount of resources (would be best to use time units) required to craft/aquire a supply of ammo necessary for such an engagement to determine how cost-effective a given weapon is. That would be the correct way of doing it, not some bullshit posts like "minigun strong, lasrifle weak" based on foundations that are questionable to say the least.
You've surprised me nice boat, you can come across as a bit of an ass at times but reality is your actually an extremely intelligent individual. Good posts
I don't think theres really much of a problem with miniguns, outside of Caravans giving them up (Caravans having Miniguns has always been a stupid idea both thematically and balance-wise) - if anything they could do with having their ammo being not quite so tough to produce.
Perhaps RL could be argued to be too good - They have great DPS, great Range but suffer from being clumsy in PvP.
I'm in the camp of just making them more rare/more expensive to maintain, rather than nerfing their power.
On the other hand SG could well do with a little bit of boosting up compared to EW and BG. Energy weapons seem OK, so boosting criticals probably isn't the answer - which leaves enhancing the SG themselves up a little bit.
I agree with you on the no looting of bigguns solar, the moment that was reinstated your player economy was broken. I'd hate too see rocket launcher nerfed, your right they are clumsy and slow but it still takes 3-4 rocket too kill an average target pvp target.
Looks at it this way solar, twaeking small guns up 10% isn't going to break the game :)
At the moment surviving a direct hit by a minigun or rocket is a difficult task for anyone under 150 hp and not wearing at least metal armor mk 2, and guess what miniguns are freakin everywhere, 90% of caravans i run into have minigunners.
Have to admit this made me chuckle a bit, i think the problem here is not the damage dealt by miniguns but more your terribly low hp :)
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+10% blanket increase for SG isn't what I'd suggest, things like Pistol's power level are fine as far as I'm concearned - if anything perhaps an increase in the amount of crippled arms to encourage bringing a pistol along as a back-up weapon is all thats needed.
Assault rifle class rifles, possibly an increase to single shot range for some of them - these (and sniper style rifles) would then be reasonable as far as I'm concearned, especially with a slight bumping up of some targetted shots. Having them as able to hit from out of range with the ability to strategically target enemies would be much better than simply normalising DPS over all weapon types.
SMG/P90 seem fine to me from the numbers I have on them, but Shotguns could indeed do with a bump to their power, either in raw damage terms, weapon traits or ammo types - I would really dislike them gaining range as it would also be a step towards normalising all weapons. Greese/Tommy, not sure, pretty much just a flavour weapon at the moment I guess - so long as they form some kind of mid point between 10mm and p90's its not too bad.
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SMG/P90 seem fine to me from the numbers I have on them, but Shotguns could indeed do with a bump to their power, either in raw damage terms, weapon traits or ammo types - I would really dislike them gaining range as it would also be a step towards normalising all weapons.
+1, we waited for a long time for the Pancor, and were disapointed to see it so weak.
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Now, EW are so nerfed that there is no mean to play it.
=>Only plasma rifle can do some damage now and it has ONLY 25 rng whereas big gun have 40!!!!
=> I agree the fact BIG GUN can kill with one or 2 shots.
=> i disagree they can do this at 40 hex (it should be 25 except for rocket launcher)
Well, it's too bad because diversity in pvp fights was funnier.
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=>Only plasma rifle can do some damage now and it has ONLY 25 rng whereas big gun have 40!!!!
Plasma Rifle should have a much higher range than that imo.
=> I agree the fact BIG GUN can kill with one or 2 shots.
This is plain logic, you'd be lucky enough to survive one rocket or close-range minigun burst.
=> I disagree they can do this at 40 hex (it should be 25 except for rocket launcher)
This is a great point, the Minigun types and LSW/M60 should not be able to shoot at such a far range, the Rocket Launcher could do with good enough aim. Rapid-fire Big Guns should be very inaccurate at long ranges. Especially the helicopter-size Miniguns.
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Minigun types and LSW/M60 should not be able to shoot at such a far range, the Rocket Launcher could do with good enough aim. Rapid-fire Big Guns should be very inaccurate at long ranges. Especially the helicopter-size Miniguns.
Why would that be? Machineguns are not weapons used only at close range, they tend to reach further than your regular rifles, excluding sniper systems (that's if I understood you well and you want to have a "realism based argument"). And do keep in mind that the further the target, the less rounds impact - it's already in the game.
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Plasma Rifle should have a much higher range than that imo.
Turbo plasma rifle has range 35 and if ever implemented, it would be best weapon in this game. No need of improving the range of standard one though - you can use a laser rifle - damage is only slightly lower.
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+10% blanket increase for SG isn't what I'd suggest, things like Pistol's power level are fine as far as I'm concearned - if anything perhaps an increase in the amount of crippled arms to encourage bringing a pistol along as a back-up weapon is all thats needed.
Wasent a literal suggestion more illustrating that playing with sg isn't going to unbalance the game, i'm sure you know how pvp is in game and have some good ideas on how too balance it :)
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"you cant run while holding a big gun"
the only suggestion i accept... seriosly its odd that a guy with so big bimbo can run upon you and not fall down, lol
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"you cant run while holding a big gun"
the only suggestion i accept... seriosly its odd that a guy with so big bimbo can run upon you and not fall down, lol
Even the Minigun (which is the heaviest) weights 12kg for pete's sake, people are able to run with heavier and more cumbersome stuff. Moreover, if a young man is unable to run with something like that in his hands I'd call him a cripple. Besides some big guns (Bazooka) aren't much heavier nor do they look bigger than for example a plasma rifle - does running around with that look weird to you too?
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So lets change minigun weight to 30kg! ^^ Even if you can run with minigun, you cant run with it pointed at target. But I have no idea how to involve a correct delay :P
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So lets change minigun weight to 30kg! ^^ Even if you can run with minigun, you cant run with it pointed at target. But I have no idea how to involve a correct delay :P
You can't run with any weapon pointed at a target, the best you could do is walk and even with that your aim would be crap. Changing the weight would make sense in realism terms, but would strongly contradict Fallout lore. Also, every weapon has some sort of a delay because of the firing animation.
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well, everything that is "huge" and both hands.
umm, i dont think its possible in FOnline to make their accuracy horrible while running because they cant shoot while running, lol. but if theres like 1-2 second timeout which makes ur accuracy crappy after running... know what i mean? and i dont think weight thing is good idea, if its too big, you wont be able to pick it up..
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Admins broken Bonus Rate on Fire , Now everybody want Shot per 30 sek ? omg. ::)
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Even the Minigun (which is the heaviest) weights 12kg for pete's sake, people are able to run with heavier and more cumbersome stuff. Moreover, if a young man is unable to run with something like that in his hands I'd call him a cripple. Besides some big guns (Bazooka) aren't much heavier nor do they look bigger than for example a plasma rifle - does running around with that look weird to you too?
The minigun weighs 12 because if it had a realistic weight you'd have no room for ammo, no one could stand holding that gun let alone fire it in real life. Miniguns are mounted weapons. The plasma rifle does look too big to run with imo. Rocket launcher shouldn't encumber much as the firing device is essentially just a metal tube, the ammo is what weighs the most.
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Why would that be? Machineguns are not weapons used only at close range, they tend to reach further than your regular rifles, excluding sniper systems (that's if I understood you well and you want to have a "realism based argument"). And do keep in mind that the further the target, the less rounds impact - it's already in the game.
That's more like "rambo based arguments". Those weapons are being used at combat either being mounted to helicopter/armored vehicle or lay on the ground (on tripod). You can't use them well while just handling in the air otherwise your aim would be terrible.
Second thing is aiming which is done by tracer bullets. First bursts are inaccurative. Unlike smallarms and rifles.
Considering engine limitation lowering max range would be best option if we want to realisticly nerf them.
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Nearf it more and more... Small gun become useless
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That's more like "rambo based arguments". Those weapons are being used at combat either being mounted to helicopter/armored vehicle or lay on the ground (on tripod). You can't use them well while just handling in the air otherwise your aim would be terrible.
Firing accurate, short bursts from SAW while standing is not a "rambo based argument". Shooting someone up close from any machinegun while standing is not a "rambo based argument". And yes, being prone improves your odds a lot, just like with a regular rifle.
Second thing is aiming which is done by tracer bullets. First bursts are inaccurative. Unlike smallarms and rifles.
Are you kidding me? Most machineguns have normal sighting devices and can be fitted with optics, first round is as accurate as one shot from a rifle and then the recoil kicks in. Tracers do help, but it matters at the most extreme ranges, which normal rifles don't handle too well. If you go that way you should enhance the range of BGs to that of a sniper rifle, and that would ruin the balance. And yes, I did fire this kind of weapon irl both standing and prone (in single shot mode though).
Considering engine limitation lowering max range would be best option if we want to realisticly nerf them.
The biggest engine limitation is the game does not model firing positions (standing, crouched, prone etc.). Obviously, if you fire at long range, you go prone. Since movement matters less and less the further the range, assuming your character goes prone when whooting at max range is not a bad bet.
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+10% blanket increase for SG isn't what I'd suggest, things like Pistol's power level are fine as far as I'm concearned - if anything perhaps an increase in the amount of crippled arms to encourage bringing a pistol along as a back-up weapon is all thats needed.
Assault rifle class rifles, possibly an increase to single shot range for some of them - these (and sniper style rifles) would then be reasonable as far as I'm concearned, especially with a slight bumping up of some targetted shots. Having them as able to hit from out of range with the ability to strategically target enemies would be much better than simply normalising DPS over all weapon types.
SMG/P90 seem fine to me from the numbers I have on them, but Shotguns could indeed do with a bump to their power, either in raw damage terms, weapon traits or ammo types - I would really dislike them gaining range as it would also be a step towards normalising all weapons. Greese/Tommy, not sure, pretty much just a flavour weapon at the moment I guess - so long as they form some kind of mid point between 10mm and p90's its not too bad.
Bumping this threaed because i gotta say solar the increased knockdowns for small guns is a bit fucked, weve returned to the bad old prewipe days.
Havent played in a few weeks thought id log on for some pvp, first fight vs a few guys a bluesuit in the distance with a hunting rifle knocks me down first shot, then proceeds to 'knock me down' every subsequent shot until im dead, 10+ shot to kill me with 0 sign of getting back up.
ok shit happens, gear up agian enter another fight, same deal. first head shot knocks me down and im pinned. i have no doubt in my mind that a guy with a 10mm could take me down at the moment 1v1 and keep me down, with the ap cost, ammo cost and nerfed dmgs theres really no point in running a bg charcter in solo pvp.
Knockdowns imo should not be cumulative and by that i mean the knockdown timer should not be reset every subsequent headshot while im already on the ground.
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necessarily limit the large two-handed weapons!! !!!smallguns power!!!
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Aryan, what was your endurance?
I'm at work atm, so don't have access to my criticals spreadsheet but I'll have a look at the chance of knockdowns/outs when I get home
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I confirm that perfect sniper builds can cause knockout crit with pretty much every shot, regardless of the enemy's EN. However, the solution may not lie in toggling the knockdown but:
- Make EN have a say on the knockdown chance. However some high-roll crits would knock you down no matter what.
- Making stonewall and quick recovery perk actually work
- Make ACs actually work in pvp so that players actually miss shots.
AC could provide a max. chance which you can be hit. So if your ac is 30, the highest chance to hit you would be 75 minus bullet penetration against armor related ac. The numbers could be slightly less and so on, but that's just a rough scetch.
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Aside from the AC stuff, that is how it works now.
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Stonewall work prety fine... I have this perk and it's very rare to knockdown me...
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Why not make it a luck roll? High EN is consistently useful anyway, it'd be nice to see luck have a bearing on more than your critical chance. And terrible luck characters would actually be unlucky, rather than just 'not lucky'. Critical rolls seem the kind of thing luck is built for.
And I figure you should go one of two ways with crits:
Either keep the current powerful damage and make status changes like blindness/knockdown/knockout very rare.
or
Make crits the way you 'disable' a target (rather than inflict 180 damage) while major damage dealers pounce on them. Crazy damage multipliers and getting knocked out every shot is a little much.
And I like avv's AC idea.
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If critical hits work anything like critical misses then luck plays a huge roll
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Why not make it a luck roll? High EN is consistently useful anyway, it'd be nice to see luck have a bearing on more than your critical chance. And terrible luck characters would actually be unlucky, rather than just 'not lucky'. Critical rolls seem the kind of thing luck is built for.
And I figure you should go one of two ways with crits:
Either keep the current powerful damage and make status changes like blindness/knockdown/knockout very rare.
or
Make crits the way you 'disable' a target (rather than inflict 180 damage) while major damage dealers pounce on them. Crazy damage multipliers and getting knocked out every shot is a little much.
Being unlucky would be awful. Imagine having a black raincloud always over you casting curses and accidents on your path. That's not enjoyable gameplay. Being un-charismatic or physically weak can still be enjoyable, but having constant failures in everything just isn't even funny.
Luck could basically give bonuses to everything and act as one of the main stats for critmongers and gamblers.
I'd like to see cripplings more, they are fascinating but have high griefing level. Maybe the cripplings should just have much lower cooldowns and being crippled too many times just kills you because your limb was torn off and you bled to death.
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Stonewall work prety fine... I have this perk and it's very rare to knockdown me...
right ... you ask one he says stonewall doesnt help much ... you ask another he says he gets rerely KD with it ... thats what you get for hidigng what perk is actually doing...
PS post your crit tables solar ;]
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Being unlucky would be awful. Imagine having a black raincloud always over you casting curses and accidents on your path. That's not enjoyable gameplay. Being un-charismatic or physically weak can still be enjoyable, but having constant failures in everything just isn't even funny.
Bad stuff couldn't really be constantly happening, though. It would just means you sacrificed crit-resistance for strength in other areas. With low luck you're vulnerable to crits, but you may be perceptive and agile enough to be able to shoot first, so it doesn't matter so much. It's not so much 'casting curses and accidents on your path', than 'if something bad happens to you, it's really bad'. Taking an incredibly low value in anything should always have pretty heavy consequences. Nobody expects to have an easy time with 1 INT, so why luck?
I don't know what to do about cripplings. If you get crippled, you're most likely just going to die anyway. I'd like crits themselves to be a fortunate bonus rather than inevitable. Fights that are over in three seconds don't really appeal to me, but that's personal taste.
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Luck already affects armour by-passes. En will continue to affect knockdowns.
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A head shot, with 3*more criticals, finesse, 10 Luck, better criticals ...
Shooting at an Endurance 1 target should have a knockout chance of ~39.27% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~47.2%
Shooting at an Endurance 6 target should have a knockout chance of ~35.5% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~28.32%
But then again, on a more general char
A head shot with just Luck 6, with better crits ...
Shooting at an Endurance 1 target should have a knockout chance of ~26.29% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~32.36%
Shooting at an Endurance 6 target should have a knockout chance of ~24.33% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~19.42%
Not too far wrong, or at least not an autolose to fight against
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What about damage multipliers? Do stats have any bearing on them?
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A head shot, with 3*more criticals, finesse, 10 Luck, better criticals ...
Shooting at an Endurance 1 target should have a knockout chance of ~39.27% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~47.2%
Shooting at an Endurance 6 target should have a knockout chance of ~35.5% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~28.32%
But then again, on a more general char
A head shot with just Luck 6, with better crits ...
Shooting at an Endurance 1 target should have a knockout chance of ~26.29% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~32.36%
Shooting at an Endurance 6 target should have a knockout chance of ~24.33% per shot, knockdown is additional chance of ~19.42%
Not too far wrong, or at least not an autolose to fight against
Hey solar, didn't mean to sound like a prick was just a little suprised when i logged in after a break lol. Aryan is 10 end, toughness & lifegiver build with 6 luck.
25% +/- sounds about right but the issue lies in the fact that knockdowns are or at least appear to be cumulitave, and its this nature that does make it an auto lose feature essentially. I may be knocked down for a few seconds during pvp which is great, it's a feature of small guns and one of the benifits of their use but what is happening is once knocked down for any period of time, ever subsequent knockdown (1/4) is reseting the knockdown timer and has the effect of pinning the opponent to the ground.
Edit: This reminds me of pre wipe where unless i ambushed the targets and was full of enough jet with yumbula that they didnt have time to react i was basically fucked. Delmore used to live in kalamath taking down high hp mini gun weilding charcters such as myself with a pipe rifle on a regualr basis lol
It's all well and good having an 8 page thread about how big guns do so much damage and need to be nerfed but whats the use in doing so much dmg when after a single shot you will never get up agian lol
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what is happening is once knocked down for any period of time, ever subsequent knockdown (1/4) is reseting the knockdown timer and has the effect of pinning the opponent to the ground.
That's because the enemy hits you all the time. Missing is basically non-existing in pvp. Other issue is that with current perk ammount there isn't always room for luxury perks like stonewall or quick recovery.
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i tested those two perks pre wipe and didnt see much benifit in their use, ill run a re test but i doubt anything has changed
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The problem comes with one person saying "Stonewall doesn't work" then another comes along and says "Yes it does!".
Unless theres some kind of information behind these, giving an idea about the process behind it, its pretty tough to know one way or the other :(
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The problem comes with one person saying "Stonewall doesn't work" then another comes along and says "Yes it does!".
Unless theres some kind of information behind these, giving an idea about the process behind it, its pretty tough to know one way or the other :(
maybe jsut tell us how does stonewall works ?
it makes so one must get better critical roll ? if so how much ? if normally the rol must be 60-100 then with stonewall its 65-100 ?:P
or maybe it adds bonus to the endurance check ?
or maybe its applied at the end giving a passive "20%?" chance to resist knockback once crit roll , end check were performed?
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I always thought it was simply a 50% chance to ignore a knockdown, though I can't check that anywhere at the moment, so could very well be wrong.
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I always thought it was simply a 50% chance to ignore a knockdown, though I can't check that anywhere at the moment, so could very well be wrong.
In tactics its 50% less likely to be knocked down, taking it again adds 25%.