Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Aryan]

- You can't run while holding a big gun
- Big guns could be heavier to avoid characters having 2 bazookas in each hand and a minigun in the mouth.
- Rise up the strength requirement to use big guns (ST min 8-9)
- Rise up the action points we need to shoot (8 Ap instead of 7 Ap for example

Totally disagree with every single suggestion, and while everyone of them is flawed in thier own special way the main reason i disagree is your mentality

Something is too powerful? Nerf it.. Then what happens to the next most popular firearm in the game emerges? youll want that nerfed and so on and so fourth then we will end up, as someone said all spears and rocks and there will still be a group whiners wanting spears nerfed.

take a look at any popular aspect of the game in the past, sneak? nerfed Theif? nerfed Crits? nerfed crafting? nerfed etc etc You start to drasticly cripple any aspect of the game throwing out the balance and all it leads too is further nerfing, then what do you end up with? A big bundle of fucked up half assed features with no balance. Every small gunner reading your suggestions will be sitting there in glee at the thought of a big slow special gimped player with fuck all range.

Better idea is too make sg more powerful, before wipe a 10mm could be more dangerous then an Avenger in the right surroundings and the sniper rifle was more powerful then a mini gun shot for shot at any given range >5 hex.

My suggestions would be slowly start winding up crits and dmg until some sort of balance is observed. But i have to stress that the issue wont be solved with further blanket changes too pvp systems, PROGRESSION is the key to balance and by makiing a huge amount of changes and implementing them in a single hit your essentially throwing darts blindfolded and hoping that one will hit the board.
Id hate to see a return of the infinite knock down scenerio we had prewipe, current cripple and knockdown rates are good, but the crit dmg for sg maybe should be looked at for better balance.

[Wallace]

Once again i'll remind the idea of possibility for crafters to upgrade (not only) small guns as well as ammo

Every new tier of upgrades would require more skills (last tier would require 250 in a skill such as repair and 150 in small guns)

Also different parts/capabilities could be upgraded (rate of fire, range, damage, accuracy, accesories such as noe exp. mag. and so on)

Such weapons would require more and more, eighter time,skills and resources and would be harder to repair


If such thing were to be implemented then even if you'd see a bluesuit with Mauser you couldn't be sure if he just took it from some dead raider or been tinkering with it so much that is now some sort of a super cannon

Now to balance weapons usage just make small guns upgrades rather effortless in comparing with big guns (and energy weaps)

[Wallace]

Who left the door opened? Some stupid brahma came in and shit all around the place... 

Get back to your breeding pen! Shoo!

[Shangalar]

Maybe we should think about another way to balance weapons, like allowing a hotkey to aim with small guns. Losing time to click on the right part of the body can be annoying : you cant see what happening during that time and its often too late when you click, because of fov properties. What do you think ?

[Wallace]

giving such option to smallguns only would be improper (logically same thing could be applied to energy guns thus improving them too - and that's not an option

We need to improve smallguns (almost) alone

So why not upgrading system?

[Nice_Boat]

I love the logic behind the original post. BGs too strong? Nerf them into oblivion. It doesn't matter that they're basically being used for most important actions only because it's hard to get them enough ammo, just get rid of them. Have you even considered ammo crafting time-damage output ratio? Because if you put it in such terms, SG and EW are vastly superior and lack the immediate punch of UNCRAFTABLE miniguns only in most extreme situations. That aspect aside, let's investigate a little bit further.

Let's assume that BGs really are overpowered. That's always to be understood in comparative terms. So, basically they're overpowered against SG and EW. What was the last balance change? Oh, but of course the crit nerf, because SG and EW were hot shit prewipe. And who were the people whining about SGs being overpowered back then? Same guys that are complaining about BGs right now. But it doesn't end there. Why were SGs overpowered and "required nerfing" in the first place? Oh, here goes the sneak nerf and "no invisibility mode for you, damn PKers!" uttered by the exact same player demographic. And here we are, with Pozzo - a fine specimen of this demographic - starting another shitstorm and saying something about "impending BBS whine". What's waiting at the end of this cycle is rocks and spears, as Skejwen rightfully pointed out.

Well, I won't speak for the entire BBS, but I've always been saying that it's way better to learn the game than aim at breaking the aspect which is frustrating or hard to master for you at the moment. Moreover, I find it curious that BGs are being targeted especially since they fail hard when compared with throwing as far as possible damage output is concerned. But then again it becomes less mind-boggling if you consider the fact that DA generally likes dynamic BG burst play and NA likes sniping, rocket launchers and throwing. So, in the end it all comes down to dirty little faction politics instead of real concern for gameplay mechanics which actually are mostly fine right now, as Kilgore and Aryan have pointed out.

Maybe we should think about another way to balance weapons, like allowing a hotkey to aim with small guns. Losing time to click on the right part of the body can be annoying : you cant see what happening during that time and its often too late when you click, because of fov properties. What do you think ?

That would be the obvious (and easiest) solution, if any solution is needed at all. Moreover, it'd give dishonest players less opportunities to cheat and somewhat improve the odds for people with worse reflexes - so I'd say it's the proper way to go and the most important thing for PvP at the moment.

[Aricvomit]

Hahaha dude was totally right *bbs flame on!!* hahaha. anyways the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.
At the moment surviving a direct hit by a minigun or rocket is a difficult task for anyone under 150 hp and not wearing at least metal armor mk 2, and guess what miniguns are freakin everywhere, 90% of caravans i run into have minigunners.
 i really do think someone loaded up with a minigun and rocket launcher shouldnt be able to run while wearing metal armor or better, it does not make any sense,
id like to see any of you put on combat armor, strap a mini and a rocket launcher to your back along with 400 round of 5mm and 20 rockets and run more then a block that is if you can even move. im for raising the strength requirement because it makes sense, and of course people who use them all the time are gonna complain, noo noo noo not my miniguns noo, now normal people have a chance nooo.
I hope this stuff actually comes to pass because it will make the game 1000000% better.

[Badger]

the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.

This is one point I think is worth considering. I don't necessarily believe that the BBS or whatever are arguing against this for their own benefit.

I do, however, believe that having the beta test gameplay this similar to the final game does make people biased. If you are playing the game as you would on release, you get used to certain things and come to rely on certain gameplay elements that you like. If someone threatens to take those away, of course you're going to respond angrily. Food for thought.

[Nice_Boat]

Hahaha dude was totally right *bbs flame on!!* hahaha. anyways the only reason you guys are such staunch defenders of big guns is because it would take away your edge.
At the moment surviving a direct hit by a minigun or rocket is a difficult task for anyone under 150 hp and not wearing at least metal armor mk 2

What a splendid display of knowledge of combat mechanics! Too bad it's entirely false Oh, and I've been cut down by LasRifle fire from 30 hexes+ - single shot, 185 dmg+, wearing Combat or Metal Armor. Let's see a Minigun do THAT.

i really do think someone loaded up with a minigun and rocket launcher shouldnt be able to run while wearing metal armor or better, it does not make any sense,
id like to see any of you put on combat armor, strap a mini and a rocket launcher to your back along with 400 round of 5mm and 20 rockets and run more then a block that is if you can even move.

Fallout Online soldier/raider/whatever:
Minigun + Rocket Launcher + Combat Armor - 28 kg.
Ammo - let's say 15 kg. That's 43 kg for you.

Real world USMC infantryman:
M16A4 - 3.5 kg
8 loaded magazines - 4 kg
FGM-148 Javelin, loaded - 18 kg
MTV tactical vest with ballistic plates and ACH helmet - 15 kg
Combat boots, uniform, LBE gear, camelback - about 10 kg.
That's 50,5 kg for you.

So, basically, you're saying real world Marines can't run a block in combat. Or even are unable to move. That's, uhm, interesting.

im for raising the strength requirement because it makes sense, and of course people who use them all the time are gonna complain, noo noo noo not my miniguns noo, now normal people have a chance nooo.
I hope this stuff actually comes to pass because it will make the game 1000000% better.

Here's a protip for you. Make a Minigun build. Too lazy for that, or too scared that you're going to suck with it anyway?

[Solar]

I don't think theres really much of a problem with miniguns, outside of Caravans giving them up (Caravans having Miniguns has always been a stupid idea both thematically and balance-wise) - if anything they could do with having their ammo being not quite so tough to produce.

Perhaps RL could be argued to be too good - They have great DPS, great Range but suffer from being clumsy in PvP.

I'm in the camp of just making them more rare/more expensive to maintain, rather than nerfing their power.


On the other hand SG could well do with a little bit of boosting up compared to EW and BG. Energy weapons seem OK, so boosting criticals probably isn't the answer - which leaves enhancing the SG themselves up a little bit.

[maszrum]

"Energy weapons seem OK"  - heh not exacly, try play pvp with LASER sniper vs metalarmors

in my option there is no balance in pvp
biggunz>>smallgunz>energy

[Aricvomit]

What a splendid display of knowledge of combat mechanics! Too bad it's entirely false Oh, and I've been cut down by LasRifle fire from 30 hexes+ - single shot, 185 dmg+, wearing Combat or Metal Armor. Let's see a Minigun do THAT.

Fallout Online soldier/raider/whatever:
Minigun + Rocket Launcher + Combat Armor - 28 kg.
Ammo - let's say 15 kg. That's 43 kg for you.

Real world USMC infantryman:
M16A4 - 3.5 kg
8 loaded magazines - 4 kg
FGM-148 Javelin, loaded - 18 kg
MTV tactical vest with ballistic plates and ACH helmet - 15 kg
Combat boots, uniform, LBE gear, camelback - about 10 kg.
That's 50,5 kg for you.

So, basically, you're saying real world Marines can't run a block in combat. Or even are unable to move. That's, uhm, interesting.

Here's a protip for you. Make a Minigun build. Too lazy for that, or too scared that you're going to suck with it anyway?

heres a protip for you, ive made a character that uses big guns and its boring as hell, it takes the skill out of the game for me, its like shooting a rabbit with a tank.. effing overkill, and as for you weight assumptions im not figuring in what actual marines carry, im figuring that a minigun thats about 5 feet long and metal as hell is going to be fucking heavy, along with metal armor which is going to be heavier then combat armor and then add 500 rounds of 5mm ammo and a rocket launcher with a bunch of rockets, sure you can maybe move around but when you factor in how much room it would take up and that you have to move around in a DESERT with all that shit its not gonna happen, also use lbs i dunno about your kgs, im an american we dont do kilograms and metric crap.
 also i cant tell you how many times ive been one shotted by a minigun, i got hit for 200 pts, insta dead. oh and another problem is your arent factoring in the 20 guns youve got in your inventory from looting people. in the end you wind up with an assload more weight then a real soldier cause a real soldier doesent loot every thing he finds.

[Nice_Boat]

heres a protip for you, ive made a character that uses big guns and its boring as hell, it takes the skill out of the game for me, its like shooting a rabbit with a tank.. effing overkill, and as for you weight assumptions im not figuring in what actual marines carry, im figuring that a minigun thats about 5 feet long and metal as hell is going to be fucking heavy,

Whether you like it or not, a Minigun in Fallout is an equivalent of a general purpose machinegun irl. It weights more or less 33% more than an LSW, which is an equivalent of squad automatic rifle. Don't even start with the "but Miniguns are SO BIG", because the idea of an individual being able to fire one without some sort of a mount is even more ridiculous than the idea of running with this kind of a weapon. If you follow the Fallout conventions, it's a GPMG. And yes, people do run with GPMGs no problem. As far as your little skill rant is concerned - I've been playing and enjoying both BG and EW builds and doing more or less equally well with both. The thing you seem to be missing is the fact that a sniper is going to win at sniper game and a minigunner is going to win at close quarters. You should learn to appreciate those little differences and adjust your tactics instead of whining.

along with metal armor which is going to be heavier then combat armor and then add 500 rounds of 5mm ammo and a rocket launcher with a bunch of rockets, sure you can maybe move around but when you factor in how much room it would take up and that you have to move around in a DESERT with all that shit its not gonna happen, also use lbs i dunno about your kgs, im an american we dont do kilograms and metric crap.

Too bad FO uses kilograms and metric crap. And no, it's not really less cumbersome than a real-life combat load - and since people have been fighting in the desert no problem for years, your points are moot.

also i cant tell you how many times ive been one shotted by a minigun, i got hit for 200 pts, insta dead.

Distance is the issue you're not taking into account here.

[Aricvomit]

Whether you like it or not, a Minigun in Fallout is an equivalent of a general purpose machinegun irl. It weights more or less 33% more than an LSW, which is an equivalent of squad automatic rifle. And yes, people do run with GPMGs no problem. As far as your little skill rant is concerned - I've been playing and enjoying both BG and EW builds and doing more or less equally well with both. The thing you seem to be missing is the fact that a sniper is going to win at sniper game and a minigunner is going to win at close quarters. You should learn to appreciate those little differences and adjust your tactics instead of whining.

Too bad FO uses kilograms and metric crap. And no, it's not really less cumbersome than a real-life combat load - and since people have been fighting in the desert no problem for years, your points are moot.

Distance is the issue you're not taking into account here.

you seem to avoid the facts like your going to be packing up way more then a real life combat load in the end, so yes it does matter.
I take distance into account and being accurate with a big ass minigun is not an easy thing to, as a matter of fact i dont think youll ever see a real life soilder running around with anything similar to the minigun in fallout, also distance dosent matter much when you get spawned on a map thas small as hell, no matter what your still dead.
it would cause to much friendly fire and people would be dead on both sides in a war. and the machine gun equivalent in fallout is a goddamn machine gun, there are multiple different ones, heavy gunners in every game are always SLOWER, STRONGER, and are able to make and take more damage due to them being super strong. this is in every game where there is a big gunner class, also i have to point out anytime you see anyone using a minigun in concept art for fallout they are either a mutant, or in power armor, because it would take extra ordinary strength to run around with a giant minigun.
oh and the people that fight in the desert that are from there dont run around in combat armor and shit, they run around in their clothes because its easier and you can move faster,
im really glad that as soon as anyone has a differing opinion than you they are automatically whining, i bet your one of those people that gets walked all over in the real world so you have to take out your aggression on other people online, go make some real friends dude, lighten the hell up.

[Nice_Boat]

you seem to avoid the facts like your going to be packing up way more then a real life combat load in the end, so yes it does matter.
I take distance into account and being accurate with a big ass minigun is not an easy thing to, as a matter of fact i dont think youll ever see a real life soilder running around wiht anything similar to the minigun in fallout, it would cause to much friendly fire and people would be dead on both sides in a war. and the machine gun equivalent in fallout is a goddamn machine gun, there are multiple different ones, heavy gunners in every game are always SLOWER, STRONGER, and are able to make more damage. this is in every game where there is a big gunner class.

The problem with your way of thinking is that you're applying real world/other game ideas to a Fallout minigun. The problem with that is that a real world M-134 weights 30 kg without ammunition and is a vehicle mounted weapon, while in Fallout it weights 12 kg (that's more or less the weight of a normal machinegun) and can be deployed by and individual in every Fallout game. If Black Isle wanted the Minigun to be a cumbersome weapon you make it out to be, they'd simply implement it in their games. Somehow, they didn't - they made it a slightly heavier version of the M60.

oh and the people that fight in the desert that are from there dont run around in combat armor and shit, they run around in their clothes because its easier and you can move faster,

That's funny, because the ones that are actually successful there (you know, casualty rates etc.) wear combat armor and use some damn heavy equipment.

im really glad that as soon as anyone has a differing opinion than you they are automatically whining, i bet your one of those people that gets walked all over in the real world so you have to take out your aggression on other people online, go make some real friends dude, lighten the hell up.

First of all, you're the one that's been taking it personnal ever since your first post. Moreover, yes, you are whining - because all the content of your posts is "hahahah BGs are too powerful" which is your subjective (and, as Kilgore said, wrong) opinion and "real miniguns are too heavy and cumbersome for that" which could be considered a valid argument if not for the fact that you've been proven the miniguns in Fallout are a different weapon class.