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[Roachor]

Even the Minigun (which is the heaviest) weights 12kg for pete's sake, people are able to run with heavier and more cumbersome stuff. Moreover, if a young man is unable to run with something like that in his hands I'd call him a cripple. Besides some big guns (Bazooka) aren't much heavier nor do they look bigger than for example a plasma rifle - does running around with that look weird to you too?

The minigun weighs 12 because if it had a realistic weight you'd have no room for ammo, no one could stand holding that gun let alone fire it in real life. Miniguns are mounted weapons. The plasma rifle does look too big to run with imo. Rocket launcher shouldn't encumber much as the firing device is essentially just a metal tube, the ammo is what weighs the most.

[mentant]

Why would that be? Machineguns are not weapons used only at close range, they tend to reach further than your regular rifles, excluding sniper systems (that's if I understood you well and you want to have a "realism based argument"). And do keep in mind that the further the target, the less rounds impact - it's already in the game.

That's more like "rambo based arguments". Those weapons are being used at combat either being mounted to helicopter/armored vehicle or lay on the ground (on tripod). You can't use them well while just handling in the air otherwise your aim would be terrible.

Second thing is aiming which is done by tracer bullets. First bursts are inaccurative. Unlike smallarms and rifles.

Considering engine limitation lowering max range would be best option if we want to realisticly nerf them.

[Kinkin]

Nearf it more and more... Small gun become useless

[Nice_Boat]

That's more like "rambo based arguments". Those weapons are being used at combat either being mounted to helicopter/armored vehicle or lay on the ground (on tripod). You can't use them well while just handling in the air otherwise your aim would be terrible.

Firing accurate, short bursts from SAW while standing is not a "rambo based argument". Shooting someone up close from any machinegun while standing is not a "rambo based argument". And yes, being prone improves your odds a lot, just like with a regular rifle.

Second thing is aiming which is done by tracer bullets. First bursts are inaccurative. Unlike smallarms and rifles.

Are you kidding me? Most machineguns have normal sighting devices and can be fitted with optics, first round is as accurate as one shot from a rifle and then the recoil kicks in. Tracers do help, but it matters at the most extreme ranges, which normal rifles don't handle too well. If you go that way you should enhance the range of BGs to that of a sniper rifle, and that would ruin the balance. And yes, I did fire this kind of weapon irl both standing and prone (in single shot mode though).

Considering engine limitation lowering max range would be best option if we want to realisticly nerf them.

The biggest engine limitation is the game does not model firing positions (standing, crouched, prone etc.). Obviously, if you fire at long range, you go prone. Since movement matters less and less the further the range, assuming your character goes prone when whooting at max range is not a bad bet.

[Aryan]

+10% blanket increase for SG isn't what I'd suggest, things like Pistol's power level are fine as far as I'm concearned - if anything perhaps an increase in the amount of crippled arms to encourage bringing a pistol along as a back-up weapon is all thats needed.

Assault rifle class rifles, possibly an increase to single shot range for some of them - these (and sniper style rifles) would then be reasonable as far as I'm concearned, especially with a slight bumping up of some targetted shots. Having them as able to hit from out of range with the ability to strategically target enemies would be much better than simply normalising DPS over all weapon types.

SMG/P90 seem fine to me from the numbers I have on them, but Shotguns could indeed do with a bump to their power, either in raw damage terms, weapon traits or ammo types - I would really dislike them gaining range as it would also be a step towards normalising all weapons. Greese/Tommy, not sure, pretty much just a flavour weapon at the moment I guess - so long as they form some kind of mid point between 10mm and p90's its not too bad.

Bumping this threaed because i gotta say solar the increased knockdowns for small guns is a bit fucked, weve returned to the bad old prewipe days.

Havent played in a few weeks thought id log on for some pvp, first fight vs a few guys a bluesuit in the distance with a hunting rifle knocks me down first shot, then proceeds to 'knock me down' every subsequent shot until im dead, 10+ shot to kill me with 0 sign of getting back up.

ok shit happens, gear up agian enter another fight, same deal. first head shot knocks me down and im pinned. i have no doubt in my mind that a guy with a 10mm could take me down at the moment 1v1 and keep me down, with the ap cost, ammo cost and nerfed dmgs theres really no point in running a bg charcter in solo pvp.

Knockdowns imo should not be cumulative and by that i mean the knockdown timer should not be reset every subsequent headshot while im already on the ground.

[duorden]

necessarily limit the large two-handed weapons!!  !!!smallguns power!!!

[Solar]

Aryan, what was your endurance?

I'm at work atm, so don't have access to my criticals spreadsheet but I'll have a look at the chance of knockdowns/outs when I get home

[avv]

I confirm that perfect sniper builds can cause knockout crit with pretty much every shot, regardless of the enemy's EN. However, the solution may not lie in toggling the knockdown but:

- Make EN have a say on the knockdown chance. However some high-roll crits would knock you down no matter what.
- Making stonewall and quick recovery perk actually work
- Make ACs actually work in pvp so that players actually miss shots.

AC could provide a max. chance which you can be hit. So if your ac is 30, the highest chance to hit you would be 75 minus bullet penetration against armor related ac. The numbers could be slightly less and so on, but that's just a rough scetch.

[Solar]

Aside from the AC stuff, that is how it works now.

[NdwZ]

Stonewall work prety fine... I have this perk and it's very rare to knockdown me...

[Badger]

Why not make it a luck roll? High EN is consistently useful anyway, it'd be nice to see luck have a bearing on more than your critical chance. And terrible luck characters would actually be unlucky, rather than just 'not lucky'. Critical rolls seem the kind of thing luck is built for.

And I figure you should go one of two ways with crits:

Either keep the current powerful damage and make status changes like blindness/knockdown/knockout very rare.

or

Make crits the way you 'disable' a target (rather than inflict 180 damage) while major damage dealers pounce on them. Crazy damage multipliers and getting knocked out every shot is a little much.

And I like avv's AC idea.

[Roachor]

If critical hits work anything like critical misses then luck plays a huge roll

[avv]

Why not make it a luck roll? High EN is consistently useful anyway, it'd be nice to see luck have a bearing on more than your critical chance. And terrible luck characters would actually be unlucky, rather than just 'not lucky'. Critical rolls seem the kind of thing luck is built for.

And I figure you should go one of two ways with crits:

Either keep the current powerful damage and make status changes like blindness/knockdown/knockout very rare.

or

Make crits the way you 'disable' a target (rather than inflict 180 damage) while major damage dealers pounce on them. Crazy damage multipliers and getting knocked out every shot is a little much.

Being unlucky would be awful. Imagine having a black raincloud always over you casting curses and accidents on your path. That's not enjoyable gameplay. Being un-charismatic or physically weak can still be enjoyable, but having constant failures in everything just isn't even funny.

Luck could basically give bonuses to everything and act as one of the main stats for critmongers and gamblers.

I'd like to see cripplings more, they are fascinating but have high griefing level. Maybe the cripplings should just have much lower cooldowns and being crippled too many times just kills you because your limb was torn off and you bled to death.

[Attero]

Stonewall work prety fine... I have this perk and it's very rare to knockdown me...

right ... you ask one he says stonewall  doesnt help much ... you ask another he says he gets rerely KD with it ... thats what you get for hidigng what perk is actually doing...
PS post your crit tables solar ;]

[Badger]

Being unlucky would be awful. Imagine having a black raincloud always over you casting curses and accidents on your path. That's not enjoyable gameplay. Being un-charismatic or physically weak can still be enjoyable, but having constant failures in everything just isn't even funny.

Bad stuff couldn't really be constantly happening, though. It would just means you sacrificed crit-resistance for strength in other areas. With low luck you're vulnerable to crits, but you may be perceptive and agile enough to be able to shoot first, so it doesn't matter so much. It's not so much 'casting curses and accidents on your path', than 'if something bad happens to you, it's really bad'. Taking an incredibly low value in anything should always have pretty heavy consequences. Nobody expects to have an easy time with 1 INT, so why luck?

I don't know what to do about cripplings. If you get crippled, you're most likely just going to die anyway. I'd like crits themselves to be a fortunate bonus rather than inevitable. Fights that are over in three seconds don't really appeal to me, but that's personal taste.