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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Drakonis on April 19, 2010, 11:34:26 am
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Ok, so I decided to give the game another try and I promised to myself: "NO MORE ALTING" :D.
My goal: Create a self-sufficent character that could craft MEDIUM TIER equipement and still be able to compete with so popular powerbuilds.
This is my result: (http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9437/shtgame.th.jpg) (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/shtgame.jpg/)
I didn't want to create a jack of all trades. I am aware that current limitations and lvl cap is kinda here to prevent making a character suitable for every action... BUT look at the image- as you can see I specialized only in 2 skills, and with average 5 intelligence I CANT DO SHIT ON MAX LVL.
I wanted to created a medium tier crafter that could run sneak and shot pretty efficently, while having durbality of a powerbuild. What did I got? A character that can't even craft advanced gunpowder since I would need 80% science(have 70 just for second profession of small guns), A character that can't efficently sneak(tagged), a character that can't effectively shot(tagged)- especially with obviosuly LOW 6 perception.
I might have HP of a powerbuild but still- My efford on making a MAIN character that would NOT required alting to craft my shit is absolutely unrewarded, because I still can't really compete with powerbuilds at ANY lvl besides HP and damage resistance.
Am I a jack of all trades that can do lots of things but aint good at anything? Sorry but that's bullshit talking- I am a character that can do only very few things in this game and still isn't good at them AT ALL. I mean come on- I can't doctor, I can't avoid encounters good, I can't first aid, I can't melee, i can't throw stuff, I can't carry much, I can't shot good at mediums/long distances, I can't barter/speech/gamble, I can't lockpick, I can't set any traps, I can't make drugs and medicaments, I can't steal stuff, I can't repair anything(even tho it's tagged), I can't sneak effecively, I can't use any weapons besides small guns, I can't craft myself a sniper rifle, I can't carry enough scorpion tails to make ONE antidote, I can't take all quests, I can't transport even medium groups of people, I can't have many followers... I can't do shit with my max level character. Obviously the ONLY way to be good at something is to create an alt or a powerbuild for it. Seriously guys.
Solutions to problem?:
-Make a powerbuild, Create a crafting alt, Craft weapons and ammo to supply and train a character that can at least compete MAJORITY of players. I mean... what will stop me? 10 minutes timeout? It's sad that if I choose to be balanced character that could enjoy many aspects of Fonline I need to get over that my ass will be kicked in PvP all the time :(
Real solution?:
- Give bonuses for being a specialist(it was allready suggested)
Like for every level of Guns Profession you get +1 perception when determining accuracy shooting range with weapons you specialise in.
Or 4% damage resistance +1 DT for every level of armorer.
+ 15 HP for doctor level etc etc
That would reward people who would not want to alt, but simply enjoy their MAIN character- yep because Powerbuild can't really specialize in anything - they simply can't take any professions if they want to maintain power.
Other solution?:
Change the game entirely so we don't get "skill point per level" but like in Morrowind= we get good at what we do the most. Of course limitations would be requied but that's why we can TAG skills right?
Let's say for tagged skill we get 100% exp per action(First Aid Experiance, Throwing experiance, etc etc) and maximum lvl of our skill is 300( should take months-or years to achieve)
For non tagged skill we would get 50% exp per action and maximum lvl of non tagged skill would be ~150%- This level should be VERY HARD to achieve(weeks of repeating actions), bet getting untagged skills to moderate values like 60-70% should THAT hard...
Example: It doesn't make sense that My character has spend years in wastelands, tavelling a LOT and still is about 30% outdoorsman, simply because I didn't put any skill points there= My character survived many encountes and had many adventures but didn't learn ANYTHING on how to avoid some of encountered problems? By the time I hit lvl 21 i should be at least 50% outdoors just from travelling a lot. Getting it to 60% would take next weeks of playing
The other solution would be best for the game itself- Would increase 2238 liveliness, kill alting(because making a good for fighting crafter would be POSSIBLE- however it would require TIME and EFFORD to % up untagged skills). Every wastelanders should be some kind of a jack of all trades- that may be ok in many things, but can be good only in his tagged skills.
Yea.. i know it's not what fallout was like... But I think I pointed source of alting problem pretty good(once again: it's impossible to create a character good at its specialization whenever it crafting/pvp/sneaking/doctor if it's not a powerbuild DESIGNED and DEVOTED for various action). Eh I suppose even increasing skills point's per lvl and/or lvl cap could partially solve the problem... At the moment if you wan't to be actually good/competitive in what you wish to do... unfrotunately you need an alt/powerbuild for it. Otherwise you will suck at everything and be SUCKY your tagged skills.
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so you complain because you cant have sniper with 250 hp and be good crafter dude...
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so you complain because you cant have sniper with 250 hp and be good crafter dude...
I don't complain. I'm pointing a problem: Why people simply go for powerbuild + alt.
Why would I complain if I can simply reroll a powerbuild shooter and a crafting alt JUST LIKE I DID BEFORE= and still have my sniper crafter that can kill/shot/sneak and be 250hp
Powerbuild + alt = Jack of all trades.
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I can't see your point: you don't want play with alts anymore, ok don't play :)
A lot of players will play with a lot of alts whatever the RPG system is, just because...why not? Those who have no time\ability\desire\whatever to make alts won't make em.
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Btw, your build is really bad to me. If you wanna proove it's impossible to make only one char and be competitive, please try to build it correctly.
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Btw, your build is really bad to me. If you wanna proove it's impossible to make only one char and be competitive, please try to build it correctly.
+1
Since when sniper (or whatever your char is ) needs 10 EN + 2x lifegiver ?
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I don't get it. You wanna use only one char and you choose 10 EN, tag Sneaking.. Why so? I think these things are for those who have a clear vision of specialist char. which is good almost only for one thing. I bet the Sneaking won't even pay off, especially with 150% in it. Btw. if you think Sneak will pay off, why don't you just take few points from it and put them into Science or whatever? I think you won't feel the difference so often.
Btw. my first char is capable of prof. SG lvl 3, Armorer lvl 1 and can shoot quite good with average hitpoints, 12 AP and BRoF on lvl 21. Last time I met a player when I was lvl 8 in random encounter I killed him using grease gun and 10mm SMG (me in Leather Jacket, he was wearing Metal MK2 and had a LSW). Ofc it was also about luck and me shooting first (I'm not a PK, but I don't want to afford taking the risk of not shooting into BG Guy in metal), but I guess it's a part of the game. I won't have such luck next time, or maybe yes, dunno. ;)
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Agreed with the three above.
My soon to be BG3 girl (just need the $$) is a reasonable PvP char on level 15.
2 toughness, 1 BRD, lifegiver, BRoF - Action Boy and BRD to come. Fast Shot and Small Frame.
100% Sci, 120% Repair, 100% outdoors, 155% BG (and 115 more skill points to go into this).
Can make all the Advanced MP/GP/Alloy, 10 AP without drugs, 2 BRD, BRoF, Lifegiver on level 12 and 6 En. Only slighlty under a perfect PvP build and is top tier of crafting.
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That's why PvP-build and crafter only difference is HP. I mean Endurance. Crafters sacrifice this stat for IN and/or CH and/or stats for prof. Also 1 CH is possible too, so they have a bit less EN, but more IN.
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Agreed with the three above.
My soon to be BG3 girl (just need the $$) is a reasonable PvP char on level 15.
2 toughness, 1 BRD, lifegiver, BRoF - Action Boy and BRD to come. Fast Shot and Small Frame.
100% Sci, 120% Repair, 100% outdoors, 155% BG (and 115 more skill points to go into this).
Can make all the Advanced MP/GP/Alloy, 10 AP without drugs, 2 BRD, BRoF, Lifegiver on level 12 and 6 En. Only slighlty under a perfect PvP build and is top tier of crafting.
Heh you've got very similar char to mine, ofc with the difference in gun skill and fast shot, Outdoors instead of Barter (now I doubt about the Barter, with the vendors lists.. but no big problem for me). I've got even the exactly same 115 spare SP which I will decide to invest later. :) And I think this is the way for people who don't have enough time to make many alts and want to enjoy many aspects of the game.
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Aye, I don't have time to make supporting alts, so each char automatically has to be able to provide for his or her self. Its really not hard to achieve.
Only real problem I have is trying to make Ch char that can still do everything without alts, or building an intentionally bad char and still competing (for example 10 En 5 Int sneak tagged).
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If you mean leader of men (about 9 charisma + magnetic P) and not just 3 cha for quests and comfort, the only weapon type to be competitve is big guns, mainly rocket launcher, with low agility and luck. I never managed to make a good leader with energy or SG so far.
About crafter char, I got one who is sg crafter lvl3, good thief, good barter, got 150 outdoor, can carry lot of stuff (even if it's not so much needed since last update), and can fight using pancor and mercenaries. It's not worth a pure pvp char of course, but it just means that you can play and be auto sufficent with 1 or 2 characters only.
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Btw, your build is really bad to me. If you wanna proove it's impossible to make only one char and be competitive, please try to build it correctly.
That's why i am trying, not to show it's impossible but because i was unaware you should have 200% of something to make a basic action with this skill.
lv9 he is not so bad to me and exept from PVP situation i manage a bit the game, in fact right know if you exept PKs who kill it in one hit, and thief i can't do anything, it dont run that bad.
Ok there are some silly things, i can't repair my stuff which is a pain, and they deteriorate quit fast. I have taken packrate cause of what you said, can't carry 5 radscorpion tails at a time, it's kind of a pitty, it's more weight than iron ore ...
The fact to me now is not that you can't play, but basicaly you can't go out of guarded cities, cause the wastelands are finally quite sure untill you see another player, cause they are mainly quite stupid and have nothing more to do than shooting blue suits or attacking traders cause it's fun. (got it again yesterday after i FA one ...)
i think here what should be considerer is that you absolutly need 200 in each skill to do something, that is really a nonsense, you should be able to repair 10mm pistols on every attempt with 100% and maybe 120 for deagle (20% harder cause it's on tier up).
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Drakonis - your char will die like 100 times while travelling from NCR to Vault City. 30% Outdoorsman don't let you avoid even scorpions.
(http://www.imagic.pl/files/16414/wich17lvl.jpg)
2 lvl Small Guns, 2 lvl Armorer, 4-person taxi (fast) with large trunk (101 carry weight), P90/Combat Shotgun user, can repair some guns.
Anything wrong with that? Yeah, sucks completely in PvP and with 1 LK he sometimes falls down in combat. Also I've made a mistake tagging FA - I should pick Repair instead.
Why people are using alts? Dunno, I had one only once before the wipe to repair stuff. But I think if you want to be "the best" (whatever that means) you need 3 lvl Small/Big/Energy Guns crafter, 3 lvl Armorer crafter, a taxi/barter char, rock-digger. You simply can't do it with one char, no matter how hard you will try.
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(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/478/47744850.jpg) (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/47744850.jpg/)
I'm a crafter too ;p
The only bad thing is <200 HP and can't Doc+FA, that's why I'm not PvP-build.
Alting is boring and isn't neccesary, because you can communicate with other people/buy from NPC, and crafting EVERYTHING is really more boring, than buying, you can easy play without alts and do some PvP and crafting at the same time with only one character.
Edit:
Drakonis - your char will die like 100 times while travelling from NCR to Vault City. 30% Outdoorsman don't let you avoid even scorpions.
About outdoorsman, you don't need this skill anymore, till someone nerf sneak again, or alteast make impossible to go into sneak mode at Wroldmap, and automatically leave sneak mode at exit grid, so you can't be invisible instantly at encounter. Because you can tag Sneak instead of Outdoorsman and easily walk with 20% outdoorsman don't caring about anything. Noone will see you, so... what's a problem?
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So what if drakonis didn't make the perfect char, or that it is possible to make pvp-able hybrid? The point still remains that powerbuilds are encouraged, so are support alts. There's no question about that, hell devs even tried to ban alting last wipe but players just didn't stop doing it.
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It's impossible to exterminate alts, without altering the character creation system or highering the level cap. Regardless what you do, it will end in jack of all trades characters, as this is exactly the reason why alts exist.
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Edit:About outdoorsman, you don't need this skill anymore, till someone nerf sneak again, or alteast make impossible to go into sneak mode at Wroldmap, and automatically leave sneak mode at exit grid, so you can't be invisible instantly at encounter. Because you can tag Sneak instead of Outdoorsman and easily walk with 20% outdoorsman don't caring about anything. Noone will see you, so... what's a problem?
I didn't know that, thanks.
Outdoorsman is a source of XP, Sneak isn't :>
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I didn't know that, thanks.
Outdoorsman is a source of XP, Sneak isn't :>
Without diminishing scorpions are your best friends, not outdoorsman :)
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It's impossible to exterminate alts, without altering the character creation system or highering the level cap. Regardless what you do, it will end in jack of all trades characters, as this is exactly the reason why alts exist.
What's wrong with altering character creation? Of course we gotta toggle the numbers if alts are wished to be exterminated. Players just won't stop what's strongly profitable.
- Reduce the potential which one char can master at one thing, no more 200+ sg snipers. Forces players to spend their skillpoints on something else and won't let them become too accurate.
- pvp system must have features that reward skill, more factors that can be exploited for player's favour.
- Set hp upper and lower limit
- Set ap upper and lower limit *these will prevent players from making intentionally too weak characters and turning this weakness into overpowering strength at some other area.
- The best equipment and temporary perks can only be achieved by npc faction interaction which demands skills in fighting and profesions.
- npc rep could be achieved by killing enemy players, but not so that you grind the same dude over and over again. You must kill various players with as much high status as possible.
- Currently crafting related skills provide nice perk unlocks suitable for fighting or just bonuses to fighting skills, like draconis said.
- Force players to choose fighting and luxury perks. You cannot pick only either type.
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Same as all mmos where there is crafting, people will have alts to fill the supply gap or to get their own stuff when they want
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Imho the core of the problem is not in powerbuilds but its in crafter builds. I mean most of the MMOs are combat based. Whenever its PvE or PvP there is a thin line between them and even if you focus purely at PvE you can still encounter PvP situations and you would not completely suck at them. But that are MMOs in general. When you take a look at FOnline then to reach out for high lvl professions you have to sacrifice your combat efficiency. I mean if we role out RP (since RP guys can play pretty much with anything and then never complain :P) and focus only on PvP and PvE then crafters are more or less useless in both. In PvP you can't afford to have single special misplaced and average builds are having really tough times trying to compete with PvPers. And in PvE I can't imagine situation where raid will profit from someones ability to craft high tier armor/weapons when it comes down to boss fight. Of course there could be situations like X repair is needed to get that generator working and use elevator in order to get into some "dungeon" etc but in general bringing crafters into fight, no matter if its against players or NPCs is not a good idea. Imho future professions should be obtainable by anyone who wants to craft. So even pure PvP maniac should be allowed to get SG 3 no matter how his special look like. Skill should determine your success and quality when it comes to crafting but it should not limit you. As it is with weapons. There are no restrictions for them. If you take laser pistol or turbo plasma rifle, skill does not limit you. It only determines how good you are with that gun. Same should be applied for professions. Also I think there should be some kind of progress when you craft. If you craft some stuff 1000 times a day then you will master it and be better than someone who is going to craft that stuff for first time. So imo everyone should have more or less combat build and the difference between good crafters that like to craft and people who can craft but ignore it should be made by players actions => how often they craft, what they craft etc.
And as for the why are alts so popular the answer is pretty obvious. Its easy and fast to make one and you profit on it so why not to create one right? Alts are domain mainly for PvP players since PvE guys or RPers can do whatever they want with one character. But PvPer has to supply his main char and since something like auctions or trades among players are like on the freezing point then everyone chooses to create an alt. Crafters can master top tier of their professions on 10th lvl and thats not that hard to get + fact that buying stuff will cost you more than if you farm and craft it yourself is another reason why to alt.
I would like to see working system where people who choose to craft and focus on that will supply others and the rest of the people will rather buy from them than switch to their alts. But there is way too much elements that affect this starting with combat mechanics and ending with servers economy - its nothing easy to get rid of the alts.
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- The best equipment and temporary perks can only be achieved by npc faction interaction which demands skills in fighting and profesions.
This sounds promising, you could have it so you can only use certain pieces of equipment if you are in a certain npc faction.
But on this note I think you should be able to be in player faction and npc faction (but still have reputation changes etc).
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I would like to see working system where people who choose to craft and focus on that will supply others and the rest of the people will rather buy from them than switch to their alts. But there is way too much elements that affect this starting with combat mechanics and ending with servers economy - its nothing easy to get rid of the alts.
I tried this and everyone know perfectly how it finish. Or you get stolen or you get killed. The only way to trade is go for NPC merchant who are always short in caps and can't buy everything.
Here you want to put what should be a fallout game, people trying to survive. Many are helping each others and some don't play the game and are rejected, like raiders.
In FOnline, you have not the part people trying to help each other, or it's really minor (or NPCs ...) and all players have only one sentence on their chat is "i rape your mother" or this kind of things and they are permitted cause of imbalanced power builds. Powerbuilds which could not make it in the wastes. Sorry but a super sniper with crit is not a viable build in the wastes i can't possibly see how he could survive. Powerbuilds are all this kind they can't do it alone, but they are used to kill everyone else ...
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Basically any way that makes it more profitable to keep playing a single char regularly even after lvl21 than having alts supporting each other is the way to go.
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Basically any way that makes it more profitable to keep playing a single char regularly even after lvl21 than having alts supporting each other is the way to go.
Like Lexx mentioned earlier, almost any way that makes it more profitable to keep playing a single char, are ways that make characters more alike, closer to a jack-of-all-trades. Removing the level cap would be the single best alt eliminator, because then all the hardcore players that play 24/7 could continue with their grinding ad infinitum, and the value of having alts is simply very small suddenly, because the lvl 232 crafter/sniper/BG/barter character with 1642 HP is a bit more attractive than some weak barter/sniper/crafter alt with possibly low outdoorsman.
Removing the level cap would wreak havoc on the balancing though, and is a terrible idea. It was seen clearly in TLA before they introduced a level cap, where "god characters" would roam towns killing everything on their own.
I could bring more examples, but there was one.
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Why don't you cap maximal HP or something else, instead of level, Ghosthack?
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Why don't you cap maximal HP or something else, instead of level, Ghosthack?
And only 1 skill possible over 200%, X skills to 150%/175%, and other skills 100% max.
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I do think its the professions that are the issue here, not the powerbuilds. I mean best craftsman can't be the best if he can't use his goods better than the most of his customers. It just feels weird to make professions so unreachable that you have to dedicate your whole character to reach to the top.
The way I would like to see professions is like an extension to any character that chooses it. No matter if its powerbuilder, RPer or just an average guy. It should be the person itself that decides if he wants to get better and then spend his time and resources to reach to the top. Simply make it hard to reach to the top items but hard in matter of how much effort is needed to get there and not how you spend your special/skill points. Stats should make it easier/harder to learn and train professions but they should not limit you.
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And only 1 skill possible over 200%, X skills to 150%/175%, and other skills 100% max.
Yeah, something like this would be cool.
Like tagged skills. And a limited amount of perks. Just that the character would be able to be neutralised by a small group, be able to fix some stat points, like ugly Charisma or bad Luck, learn two professions and be able to sell.
I'm sure, the player will put all his effort into his character.
Simply make it hard to reach to the top items but hard in matter of how much effort is needed to get there and not how you spend your special/skill points. Stats should make it easier/harder to learn and train professions but they should not limit you.
You mean, gradually diminishing skill/hit/experience points after proper amount of them?
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Removing the level cap would wreak havoc on the balancing though, and is a terrible idea. It was seen clearly in TLA before they introduced a level cap, where "god characters" would roam towns killing everything on their own.
Yes it's terrible idea, that's why we gotta think of another way.
If you just kept playing a single dude, doing various stuff like quests, crafting, pve and pvp you would collect some sort of alternative exp or reputation that you could spend to special benefits. You had to do all of those, not only one to get the benefits. You could have weight on one of them more than others, but doing all of them at least a little would be necessary.
What would these benefits be? Temporary buffs to stats and skills, temporary perks, unique items depending on your profesion and unique companions.
Where would you get them? From npc factions.
What exactly was needed to do for them? Various stuff. Let's say you're ncr ranger. Rangers want you to kill slavers, you get ranger +rep by killing slaver players and slavers, freeing slaves, waging war against metzger, providing rangers with weapons, medicine and amors that you craft. You couldn't just grind slaver encounters because the +rep from doing it would diminish, so you'd have to craft some weapons or armor. Crafting weapons and armor doesn't help because the +rep production diminishes from all crafting, so you'd better just craft highest tier weapons, armor or medicine. Once you can't get much more rep from those two above, you should go hunt some slaver or raider players, but you can't hunt them forever because +rep from them would diminish too.
Now that you've got some +rep you can buy a temporary benefit from the rangers. You lose it when you die, so don't die, better team up with other rangers.
If you die in the hands of slavers or other enemies of rangers, you lose your rep and status in their eyes. And don't even try to ~cuttheveins, because the rep is lost when you lose your Ranger star badge, but you won't get any +rep when not wearing it. This badge will make others able to recognize you as Ranger.
This would keep lvl21 dudes busy forever, I guess.
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Before this gets spammed to death with message after message like the other ones.
Its possible to have a tier 3 profession and still build a very capable combat char. Let's not lose sight of this when the massive essay posts arrive.
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Before this gets spammed to death with message after message like the other ones.
Its possible to have a tier 3 profession and still build a very capable combat char. Let's not lose sight of this when the massive essay posts arrive.
Should we discuss it in IRC, then?
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Before this gets spammed to death with message after message like the other ones.
Its possible to have a tier 3 profession and still build a very capable combat char. Let's not lose sight of this when the massive essay posts arrive.
Yes it's possible but the point is that the game encourages players to make alts. Imagine if we were to write new manual for new players. What would they think if the manual told the truth and read that alts are major part of the game and every player who wants to maximize their production and effectiviness should create them.
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What would these benefits be? Temporary buffs to stats and skills, temporary perks, unique items depending on your profesion and unique companions.
We need stuff like this. Stuff that you work for and people can't take away from you. Stuff that's practical, interesting, unique or, hell, even just a status symbol. Stuff besides your character's level that is a measure of your progress in the game. Stuff that you can't lose, either. If it's easily lost it'll just sit in a base or a locker. Which is part of why I want cars unstealable.
This is why I suggest respawning companions. Companions only obtainable through a quest which requires a lot of skill in a certain area, like science, which will go some way to offsetting your disadvantage in PvP. Robobrains for science, Medics for doctor, Robots for repair, etc.
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Yes it's possible but the point is that the game encourages players to make alts. Imagine if we were to write new manual for new players. What would they think if the manual told the truth and read that alts are major part of the game and every player who wants to maximize their production and effectiviness should create them.
Oh, it could be expanded upon greatly, indeed. I just don't like how these threads derail themselves into wholesale changes when there's not really the need.
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Game is very alt depending this is fact. And this separates players for those who can evade relog timer + multiclient/multibox and for those who can not.
If you intend to play just 1 character all you can do is stay in guarded town and sometime kill few scorpions.
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Thats a very interesting build you got there Drakonis.I think you have just demonstrated for all of us how not to make a combat crafter.
I always wondered why devs and gm's dont just make it a rule for fonline that alts are encouraged but only to a certain extent.Post it in the rules that the max characters anyone can have is 3 and inforce it hardcore.Treat it as dual logging with bans ( no jail time because thats really such a joke ) and take no bullshit on the subject.As we have seen many times before people will always do the exact opposite of what they are told but at least its a start.I know Devs and Gm's take alot shit from players ( myself included ) but maybe its time to really start cracking down on bullshit.
For anyone that thinks all you can do as a crafter is kill scorps and rats,well i call bullshit.My medic with 150 in sm guns rapes the shit out of almost any encounter on the map.Ive been spending the last few days since xp was retuned to us on getting rich around San Fran on caravns,mercs,and press gangs,and ive been doing it solo.In between making teir 3 meds for my friends and healing people Ive managed to become quite rich so give it a try before you decide powerbuilds are the only life in fonline.
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Why alt + powerbuilds are so popular ?
But everyone want some PVP / PVE / or fun from Pking / killing people in NCR .. so they creating first Barter alt , For example second is 2 lvl bigguner + 2 armorer and last powerbuild character .First mission is dug lot of junk / HQ / normal ore / and other supplies. Second is Crafting a lot of shit from supplies ... And last is PVP / PVE / PK etc... by gun + ammo / armor . There is lvl limit & no Organisation with people .. :) * ( i dont thing they want only dug shit , second will crafting and last will take it and shoot ^^)
DRAKONIS :
it good build for SMG not for sniper ... with fast shot + BROF + BRD ( not more crit + better crit ) will be better...
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Why Powerbuild on evil killing ? Bad it have on 21 lvl big hp , evil hit + skill , practical skill ( FA when he wounded , Doc when he weak / damaged , crippled . )
For example . :)
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7230/screen19042010203102.th.jpg) (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/screen19042010203102.jpg/)
14 lvl ... not bad ;)
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"no more 200+ sg snipers. Forces players to spend their skillpoints on something else and won't let them become too accurate. "
hauHuahuhauhauhua
are you serious?
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some thing I saw once was
twas in FF X-2, blitzball
training in one Stat improved that stat, decreased a few other stats (though not as much)
and a slight improve in other stats
for example, using energy weapons could improve his energy weapons skill, his science skill slightly (cause of high tech)
but impair his, outdoorsman (they said tech makes ours bond with nature weaker)
problem is, the linking part, what skills should decrease, which should increase?
but if succesfull, every person would be dynamic (skills wise)
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If you intend to play just 1 character all you can do is stay in guarded town and sometime kill few scorpions.
I've heard that you can start a gang with two friends and then one of them could be 3 lvl SG crafter, another 3 lvl Armorer, and you could be 3 lvl Doctor. 3 people - 3 chars. And they can kill something more than scorpions I guess.
Don't know much about PvP, maybe there you just have to fast relog on yet another powerbuild of sniper after being killed. Alts seem necessary in this case :>
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I can't see your point: you don't want play with alts anymore, ok don't play :)
A lot of players will play with a lot of alts whatever the RPG system is, just because...why not? Those who have no time\ability\desire\whatever to make alts won't make em.
That one killed me.
So people don't play cause lack of abilities. And whose who can't use just one char to be able to play = those talented, eh?
Nice thinking...
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Why alt + powerbuilds are so popular ?
But everyone want some PVP / PVE / or fun from Pking / killing people in NCR .. so they creating first Barter alt , For example second is 2 lvl bigguner + 2 armorer and last powerbuild character .First mission is dug lot of junk / HQ / normal ore / and other supplies. Second is Crafting a lot of shit from supplies ... And last is PVP / PVE / PK etc... by gun + ammo / armor . There is lvl limit & no Organisation with people .. :) * ( i dont thing they want only dug shit , second will crafting and last will take it and shoot ^^)
DRAKONIS :
it good build for SMG not for sniper ... with fast shot + BROF + BRD ( not more crit + better crit ) will be better...
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Why Powerbuild on evil killing ? Bad it have on 21 lvl big hp , evil hit + skill , practical skill ( FA when he wounded , Doc when he weak / damaged , crippled . )
For example . :)
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7230/screen19042010203102.th.jpg) (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/screen19042010203102.jpg/)
14 lvl ... not bad ;)
Yeah but.. Dude your char has 1 charisma. You cannot enjoy quests/ lead any friends, have a dog etc. Your build has also pretty low hp... I agree that your build is interesting but It still can't compete with popular PVP powerbuilds.
Thats a very interesting build you got there Drakonis.I think you have just demonstrated for all of us how not to make a combat crafter.
I always wondered why devs and gm's dont just make it a rule for fonline that alts are encouraged but only to a certain extent.Post it in the rules that the max characters anyone can have is 3 and inforce it hardcore.Treat it as dual logging with bans ( no jail time because thats really such a joke ) and take no bullshit on the subject.As we have seen many times before people will always do the exact opposite of what they are told but at least its a start.I know Devs and Gm's take alot shit from players ( myself included ) but maybe its time to really start cracking down on bullshit.
For anyone that thinks all you can do as a crafter is kill scorps and rats,well i call bullshit.My medic with 150 in sm guns rapes the shit out of almost any encounter on the map.Ive been spending the last few days since xp was retuned to us on getting rich around San Fran on caravns,mercs,and press gangs,and ive been doing it solo.In between making teir 3 meds for my friends and healing people Ive managed to become quite rich so give it a try before you decide powerbuilds are the only life in fonline.
OK ok, so you can walk around map and kill things with your 150% small guns. But again. you still are not competitive in PvP with 250+ HP toughness accurate bigguns tanks/snipers that WILL see you from much longer distance.. could propably simply sneak up like 5 hex next to you before they kill you in 1-2 turns.
I agree with everybody that it IS possible to create a crafter that still can fight pretty well. But "pretty well" is not enough when it comes to compete with other players. If you want to craft top tier items- your character has to be dedicated from the beggining in thi role- usually altering your hp, durbality, accuracy, crits, and overall survavibility... Why playing a crafter that can do "pretty well" in combat but still being raped most of of the time when you can just easly make a lvl 10 alt to craft your shit, and level up you powerbuild like just like others.
Alting is encouraged because it's fast, easy and maximizes your effectiveness both in crafting and combat. You no longer have to choose if you wanna be a GREAT crafter or a GREAT figher. You can be both, Just use this little shiny red registration button.
Possiblity to be a GREAT fighter and GREAT crafter with cost of big efford on leveling untagged skills to desired level would be more attractive, kill alts, and increase game liveliness. Wouldnt we all want to have motivation to play/grind/quest with our lvl 21 char? Dudes, if i knew that performing various actions would increase my various skills... I would just keep playing- even if the "training" would be taking days.
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OK ok, so you can walk around map and kill things with your 150% small guns. But again. you still are not competitive in PvP with 250+ HP toughness accurate bigguns tanks/snipers that WILL see you from much longer distance.. could propably simply sneak up like 5 hex next to you before they kill you in 1-2 turns.
Speaking about Sneaking reminds me of a quote
"The problem is, at the moment with the disabled features to hunt lags it is not really the right time to make new events, partly because of the heavy lags, the disabled Field of View and the unnerfed sneak."
by one of the devs or gms in the Events sub-forum. :)
I mean today what you say might be true and your 150 sneaking and silent run could do, but in few weeks the situation could be a little bit different. Ofc you can apply this on more mechanics, but I think such investment is much more unreliable than the characters proposed earlier by f.e. Solar and many others. I just don't want to see people make their "high" sneaking chars based on these threads and then whine on forum after things get back to "normal", how their 151% Sneaking char is now useless.
It's just about personal taste. If you think nowadays having 240+ HPs (when people having insta-kill/ cripple builds?), 151% Sneaking and Silent Run (when not clear, if the situation with Sneak will remain the same even when comparing today and tomorrow?) will give you real advantage, so you can have quite low values of PE, INT, Small Guns etc., then I think it's your choice and it's alright. Only time will show. Anyway I guess you can't say objectively, that your build is better for PvP with comparable craft capabilities than any other build posted in this thread. Everything is just a compromise. And I suppose it's not that bad, you can't have 90% PvP char and 100% crafter in one character. It just gives out more than 100%. :)
P.S.: Anyway there are still choices. Get some friend-crafter and make a PvP build, raise your INT and crafting skills.. and I suppose even many more.
P.P.S.: Btw. I even didn't need to craft anything more complex than 10mm JHP/ Shotgun shells so far and I have lvl 3 prof. items in my tent. Everything looted or exchanged/ bought from NPCs (and no, I'm not a part of some PK faction.. I'm a loner and even did kill only about one player so far, who was quite suspicious).
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if it comes for sneak the math is realy easy .
6 points of sneak reduce enemy vision range by 1 hex(when it comes for fronal vision its unknown to me what will hapen once the back los reduction is implemented
heacy armor si 50% loss
weight is 1% per kg
if sneaking in front its 75 penalty
so the worst case scenerio (whe narmoredd and approaching from front the differance will be 150 between now and once things get fixed.
150 sneak atm grant 25 hex reduction to enemy vision.
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Yeah but.. Dude your char has 1 charisma. You cannot enjoy quests/ lead any friends, have a dog etc. Your build has also pretty low hp... I agree that your build is interesting but It still can't compete with popular PVP powerbuilds.
It powerbuild :) that should be char on PVP , other with 3CH + crafting skills havent enough power . low hp ? man look on build and on lvl , it have very good hp . on 15 i take next lifgiver .. it compete with pvp powerbuilds ;)
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It powerbuild :) that should be char on PVP , other with 3CH + crafting skills havent enough power . low hp ? man look on build and on lvl , it have very good hp . on 15 i take next lifgiver .. it compete with pvp powerbuilds ;)
oh right :P my bad. I thought you wanted to show me your "balanced" build :P
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wait for SDK to be released and you will be able to create your very own vision of game set in any setting (in example fallout) :)
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a newb question "alt" is?
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- alt - 2nd, 3rd or, 17th character of player. It is a rather unwelcome phenomenon from developer’s point of view. It makes possible to reach goals unreachable for single person. Iif you can’t manage in other way than making alts for every task that this game offers, i.e. one for crafting, second for healing, third for gathering and "main" character. Be aware - probably you become "Gang Dumbass" (check types of players), relogging between alts is restricted by a 10 minute cooldown, 30 is possible due to bugs.
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I just don't like how these threads derail themselves into wholesale changes when there's not really the need.
Well powerbuilds can probably be balanced with a number of basic fixes, but alts are another story. Lexx and Ghosthack were on the position that nothing works, but something does work, it's just a motherload of work. It' all about how crucial devs and players consider the alt problem being. Some players think it's fine because I dare say: they have no clue about what's a good game mechanic. Of course it feels good to be omnipotent, hell I bet the current sniper players enjoy instacrits very much. It's the alts more than anything that create similar chars: all trader, crafting, taxi and fighter alts are similar. They all bear the similarity of having only one strength and together make it so that player has a group of characters which provide him a jack of all trades benefit. Which was exactly what devs were against.
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Okay then since we already have those 'jack of all trades' (powerbuilds + at last 2 alts) I propose:
- remove charisma when checking how many players can travel with you
- remove barter so you do not need to relog on barter alt
- remove crafting profesions so you can craft all you need with your powerbuild main.
Ps. but then you will need Repair alt to repair your stuff :/ Remove repair % and make weapons Repairable only few numbers of time?
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Okay then since we already have those 'jack of all trades' (powerbuilds + at last 2 alts) I propose:
- remove charisma when checking how many players can travel with you
- remove barter so you do not need to relog on barter alt
- remove crafting profesions so you can craft all you need with your powerbuild main.
Ps. but then you will need Repair alt to repair your stuff :/ Remove repair % and make weapons Repairable only few numbers of time?
OK, what's left?
(http://cs-guide.net/wp-content/uploads/counter-strike-condition-zero-4.jpg)
or
(http://files.xboxic.com/nintendo-ds/quake-arena/quake-arena.jpg)
And then we can discuss about "falloutishness in Fallout" :>
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Well is there a single player who enjoy exping alts to support powerbuild? Well only "joy" you can have that way is from pwning players who cant exp alts to suport powerbuild as good like you.
And we know lots of powerbuilds is supported by not legit ways - and legit players have no chance to catch up with 'cheaters'.
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wait for SDK to be released and you will be able to create your very own vision of game set in any setting (in example fallout) :)
Uhh was this reply to who exactly? No offense but it gives an impression that alts and powerbuilds are the "way to go" for you and everyone else not liking them can just go make his own game. Hell, I'm seeing a whole new catchphrace forming: whenever someone is suggesting something, he's just guided to sdk and told to make his own game. "Wasteland is harsh" has found an opponent.
Okay then since we already have those 'jack of all trades' (powerbuilds + at last 2 alts) I propose:
- remove charisma when checking how many players can travel with you
- remove barter so you do not need to relog on barter alt
- remove crafting profesions so you can craft all you need with your powerbuild main.
Ps. but then you will need Repair alt to repair your stuff :/ Remove repair % and make weapons Repairable only few numbers of time?
These would be steps back. There's no use going back and forth with things. Charisma, barter and profesions have their roles in the game they shouldn't be taken away, because eventually people would start missing them anyway.
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barter is allready taken :(. merchants work for No-Profit. does not matter what your barter skill is
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barter is allready taken :(. merchants work for No-Profit. does not matter what your barter skill is
I'm a whore for Charisma buffs, but the barter change was definitely for the better. People are using stores a lot more. Now if only the shops had stuff people wanted to buy.
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Now if only the shops had stuff people wanted to buy.
Then devs can delete "Trade" board from this forum, and shouting "WTB/WTS ..." in town will be totally ignored.
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Here's my build: (http://i44.tinypic.com/24qs2z6.jpg)
However, it's a given of my being in a gang with people that have lvl 2 and 3 proffesions but originally I too was going for a self-sufficient balanced character.
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And we know lots of powerbuilds is supported by not legit ways - and legit players have no chance to catch up with 'cheaters'.
What cheating? Exp diminishing was removed, you can be 21 with any build in a week or two without sitting at your computer for 15 hours per day. What else do you need to make your powerbuild?
It is just "take 10mm pistol and ammo and go kill scorps" now. Or centaurs with BG. Or whatever you like. Monotonous, but very fast.
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What cheating? Exp diminishing was removed, you can be 21 with any build in a week or two without sitting at your computer for 15 hours per day. What else do you need to make your powerbuild?
It is just "take 10mm pistol and ammo and go kill scorps" now. Or centaurs with BG. Or whatever you like. Monotonous, but very fast.
by catch up i doubt he meant experiance points/levels. Alting lets you get your stuff faster easier more effectively and most important.. Independently from other players. While normal people have to actually put efford in getting stuff they desire, our jack of all trades alter will first login his protected miners to dig some minerals. then he will safetly taxi them to his craft that will make them into anything he wants. And everything that without cooperating with other players(unless he's a member of faction, so he has friends to protect him while he's getting HQ components
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Actually alting is incredibly slow because you logout with one char have to wait 10 mins, log in with next do your stuff, then log out another 10 mins to change. So its actually quicker to just use one character for must stuff.
Only real advantage is dual loggers who cheat, or for crafting different items then a seperate pvp char.
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Actually alting is incredibly slow because you logout with one char have to wait 10 mins, log in with next do your stuff, then log out another 10 mins to change. So its actually quicker to just use one character for must stuff.
Only real advantage is dual loggers who cheat, or for crafting different items then a seperate pvp char.
It's just 20 minutes, we're talking about weeks here. When you go kill someone, or craft 20 plasma rifles it doesn't matter if it took you 20 mins to switch to that char. It only matters what you're doing on the present moment and what will be the outcome after that.
One char cannot be doctor, armorsmith, weaponsmith, fighter and barter dude. It shouldn't be surprising that alts are a major problem of this game.
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Well I don't think they are problem, without alts I think game would be too limited. Anyway i'm pretty sure there's no way to stop alting as it is.
Something like oh you can be really good at using big guns but you cannot make weapons... At least in other mmos the merchant will always have a gun you want with plenty of ammo.
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Well I don't think they are problem, without alts I think game would be too limited. Anyway i'm pretty sure there's no way to stop alting as it is.
Limited? You can get everything from other players, besides it's completely possible to make fighter crafter. The problem is just the high potential of chars forces players to arms race because character build has so high role in pvp.
Way to stop alting would be to lower the potential to be good at one thing and raise the floor to suck at something (who wants to play a char with 3ap?).
Then make it so that it's more productive to play one char long time rather than many chars short time. And I don't mean higher level cap, but for example reputation. The more you do, the more you get rep. Rep unlocks nice stuff which you cannot get otherwise for that character only.
Something like oh you can be really good at using big guns but you cannot make weapons... At least in other mmos the merchant will always have a gun you want with plenty of ammo.
You can buy the weapons from other players, this is multiplayer game after all. It's just that we don't have a nice player-player trade system. And what's stopping you from being crafter-fighter? It's just that we don't have a nice player-player trade system. And what the hell? Gunrunners, Jacob in hub and san fran shopkeepers all sell lsw, plasma rifles, rocket launchers and miniguns.
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Limited? You can get everything from other players,
Only if they are online at same time as you, or is someone you can trust. Trust is rare in wasteland. My real life friends don't play this game either.
Also I can no longer talk to gunrunners because there was dialogue option to insult shopkeeper and then you can NEVER talk to him again (stupid idea but hey)
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Only if they are online at same time as you, or is someone you can trust. Trust is rare in wasteland. My real life friends don't play this game either.
So? Can't you see that there's perhaps something wrong with that trade doesnt work because players don't meet? Maybe the game lacks a better player to player trade system. Such system is must for all mmo games where items play important role.
You're free to give feedback and speculate the current game matters instead of just adapting to the present ways no matter what. It's beta stage, feedback is extremely important.
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Well I don't think they are problem, without alts I think game would be too limited. Anyway i'm pretty sure there's no way to stop alting as it is.
Something like oh you can be really good at using big guns but you cannot make weapons... At least in other mmos the merchant will always have a gun you want with plenty of ammo.
Scrapping skill points system could work(its good only for single player). You would no longer get skill points per character level, your skills would increase while using them / performing various actions. Of course tagged skills would not have a limit and could be trained easier, and for non tagged skills you would recive exp penalty, but everybody should be still able to reach a maximum of 150% in non-tagged skills as a reward for weeks/months/years of playing Fonline with ONE character.
Just like avv said. Make the game profit and encourage playing with just one character a long time rather than many characters for short periods of time.
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I made a guy who fights melee so no perception needed. Hes did good fighting critters at lvl 2 onwards, and is doing ok at lvl 5 I think he's five. He's a brute and can kill higer level people easily.
I make my money quite easy as well, not millions at this low level but I manage simply and safely. For me the game isnt about being the best all the time, like nerds nowadays seem to throve to be. I manage and enjoy myself.
If you want to be best, go outside and do shit. You ll never be anything staring at a monitor.
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He's a brute and can kill higer level people easily.
And how exactly he can do this?
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i think it's in TB
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I think it's Alice in wonderland. Ugh i mean wasteland
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And how exactly he can do this?
By beating the shit out of them.
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By beating the shit out of them.
Nice little imagination you have there, bro. Good luck becomin a PKer with brute unarmed :P Have you consider a pokemon master carrier instead XD?
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Easy he wait a leather or bluesuit speak to a merchant or a random NPC with quest and he make HtH with aim in the head.
I died a couple of time like this in Klamath while trying to do quests.
Know he say that but once he ll be lv 10 and killing or knockout will fail against stronger ennemies he will cry about that.
Critt only noob PK, how couragous.
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he won't be so tough with an instakill sniper bullet in the eye
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he won't be so tough with an instakill sniper bullet in the eye
I expect instakills aren't really his worry now. ;)
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(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3910/charw.jpg) (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/charw.jpg/)
how is this one?
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I'll always remember something a friend of mine said: I'm in it for the fight itself. I don't care who wins or loses. It's the fighting itself that I'm in it for. Not the victory.
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I'll always remember something a friend of mine said: I'm in it for the fight itself. I don't care who wins or loses. It's the fighting itself that I'm in it for. Not the victory.
Well its not even that, its whether the battle is a close one because getting an easy win isn't very satisfying just as dying quickly is no fun.
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Well its not even that, its whether the battle is a close one because getting an easy win isn't very satisfying just as dying quickly is no fun.
1v1 fights will never be long :> and they do not suppose to.
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Well its not even that, its whether the battle is a close one because getting an easy win isn't very satisfying just as dying quickly is no fun.
oh, you're wrong. Both things are really fun :D
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oh, you're wrong. Both things are really fun :D
pixel junkie?
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pixel junkie?
no. Im just trying to take some fun from dying. Dying is cool.