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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Solar on February 18, 2012, 01:52:56 pm
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I was curious to work out the average damage from these 3 weapons, given all the discussion about the relative power. I chose a Minigun and not an Avenger because the Minigun is craftable.
So, presuming these characters have all the perks they need:
Snipers: More Critical, Even More Critical, RBtE, Better Criticals, BRoF
Minigun: The 3 different BRD, BRoF
Targeting someone with 1 Luck (To make bypasses the worst they could be), No defence perks (Yes I know people use these, but this is as general a comparison as possible). I've assumed the BGer's critical chance is small enough to ignore.
Laser Average Damage 58.38 (6 AP)
Sniper Average Damage 42.8 (7 AP)
Minigun Average Damage 102.6 (6 AP)
Using the Minigun and targeting a 2*Toughness guy gives average damage of 72, I'm too lazy to change the other two to take toughness into account for now and way too lazy to factor in Bonehead or Man of Steel :P
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But what does this all mean?
There are dozens of things to take into consideration with damages. For example many sg snipers use finesse, which ofcourse reduces damage.
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Minigun with what type of ammo ;D? But withuout thougness its not reality its kind of joke :)
And BG critical chance uh Solar how wrong u can be sometimes :) Just play that game really
But about sniper lazer dmg
Lazer have much too high damage compare to how ease its to get
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I don't worry about sniper demage, but crippler is slighty useless now.
Bonehead, Man of steel, most characters have 10 Endurance (+4 EN, -4 AGI, +2 Action boy, -2 Lifegeaver = PROFIT), Armor Mods - all these make crippler needless.
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This all means that big guns still easily out damage the single shot weapons. I wanted to know for myself, with people complaining about the damage they do, how they compared. I thought I'd share the results for interest.
No toughness? I included the toughness for the minigun, if you missed it.
I'm pretty sure all 3 of these weapons are too easy to get at the moment :p
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I'm pretty sure all 3 of these weapons are too easy to get at the moment :p
As for me everithing, wich has in-game blueprints and ingridients, is extremely easy to get. I can get about 400 ore for 30 minutes, my friend few days ago digged about 100 HQ ores for 1 hour. You "fixed" merchants, but at the moment we don't need them - everything is laying on the ground.
The only thing we needed to prevent devaluation is withdrawal of money from circulation by some valuable goods (2mm EC ammo, buyable only through dialogue or smthing like that)
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Actually, traders aren't fixed yet :(
Crafting is way too fast because the timeout is infinite instead of cumulative for 1 or 2 hours.
But let's not get too focussed on availability, we all know this isn't right at the moment.
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Hmm I must agree with u Solar all kind of weapon are freaking ease to get even that top grade, only armors are problem :P
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Its true, even i gave a new chance to crafting, the only true problem are blueprints because they are boring to get, not hard.
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OK. I have my own statistics of snipers and the results are pretty interesting.
Fact is, they are nerfed since last era. Its because Bonehead, Helmets, Men of steel and different critical hit tables + different perks.
Max dmg output of sniper rifle to eyes is something around 125. To head its 144+
So basically you can score bigger dmg to head, than to eyes.
If we want to make comparsion of snipers to big gunners, so snipers are very nerfed since last era. Biguners can be immune against blindshots, knockouts and in average they have 250-280 hps.
Snipers are very luck and critical dependant. They can do huge dmg (120+) three and more times in a row. But then they can do like 70 dmg with 4 continuous shots (sum dmg of 4 shots). And in average, they have 130-180 hps MAX. More Hps mean only 1 Shot. And less Hps mean, they will die for 1 max 2 bursts everytime.
Avenger and minigun is doing constant 70-120 dmg, per every burst.
Energy sniper is a different kind of story. Their eyeshots bypases are in average for 130-160 hps. And against head it could be 205+ dmg. Against helmet and bonehead. But in average dmg per 50 shots. Sniper rifle and Laser rifle is pretty much the same. (Sniper rifle can do bigger dmg per non bypass. Cause of lesser laser resistance (Metal helmets + Combat helmets).
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Laser Average Damage 58.38 (6 AP)
Sniper Average Damage 51.77 (7 AP)
Minigun Average Damage 102.6 (6 AP)
hmm okey....
Question is why sniper must shoot 3+ times (3 if he is very lucky) to kill BG and BG needs only 1+ bursts to kill sniper ?
That makes sniper almost useless only for criplers 50 hex advantage but almost no dmg ...
But I never saw miniguns in pvp only avengers.
in final sum to kill 280 hp enemy with average shoots you need:
6 shoots from sniper ..... 42 action points
3 bursts from minigun .... 18 action points
so thats why is sniper so .....
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My question is... is this with target shots on sniper or just single shot to a blue suit?
Was bonus range damage taken into consideration for miniguns? How many hexes away was the mini gun shot? Big guns do less damage further away the target is when it comes to bursting... I mean when you say you use BRD was it just 1xbrd 2xbrd 3xbrd?
I get there is no toughness involved in this test but most luck based builds bypass toughness, for example sniper or ew.
Also toughness does not give any DR towards laser or plasma just normal or big gun / small gun ammo.
And what ammo mini gun use? JHP or AP?
Average damage for laser is ~50 I've seen gattling lasers shoot for 200+ every shot on combat armor.
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But again. PvP is not about averages. PvP is only about lucky PEAK dmg.
And sniper + laser rifles are only about this PEAK dmg. This is why its so frustrating.
(For example get killed by two laser bypasses (170+205 dmg))
Chance for taking that kind of bypasses in a row is low, its just pure luck. But it happens.
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Can we quit bitching?
Everyone here has been sniped/bursted/flat out damaged in a 2 or 3 shot. It's part of the game... LUCK. Everyone is striving for 'TEH PERFECT PVP BELD' yet needs to remember what the developers sought to create with this: a Fallout world we could play with each other and do just about anything within the constraints of the game.
Go figure out your perfect 2 shot builds and bitch about minor changes in your respective faction forums. Let the devs continue producing the great product they've provided for us.
EDIT: We're lucky Solar is providing us with this great information at all... quit complainin!
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What Landrik said
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Can we quit bitching about people giving feedback?
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Can we quit bitching?
Everyone here has been sniped/bursted/flat out damaged in a 2 or 3 shot. It's part of the game... LUCK. Everyone is striving for 'TEH PERFECT PVP BELD' yet needs to remember what the developers sought to create with this: a Fallout world we could play with each other and do just about anything within the constraints of the game.
Go figure out your perfect 2 shot builds and bitch about minor changes in your respective faction forums. Let the devs continue producing the great product they've provided for us.
EDIT: We're lucky Solar is providing us with this great information at all... quit complainin!
Maybe you missed something but average dmg has nothing with LUCK but with ballance its main point of average.
If sniper has only chance in luck and not in dmg then there must be something wrong.
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For Solar
I tested LSW, Minigun (jhp and ap ammo), avenger minigun (both ammo), m60. Bursting from 20 hexes and then from 5 hexes. The best damage does m60. I can make a video if you want to see
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Bursting from 20 hexes and then from 5 hexes
If you have enought skill there is no difference between them. There is 4% accuracy penalty after each round in burst.
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Can we quit bitching?
Everyone here has been sniped/bursted/flat out damaged in a 2 or 3 shot. It's part of the game... LUCK. Everyone is striving for 'TEH PERFECT PVP BELD' yet needs to remember what the developers sought to create with this: a Fallout world we could play with each other and do just about anything within the constraints of the game.
Go figure out your perfect 2 shot builds and bitch about minor changes in your respective faction forums. Let the devs continue producing the great product they've provided for us.
EDIT: We're lucky Solar is providing us with this great information at all... quit complainin!
I do not see anybody bitching about anything. I do not really see the point of this post other than to troll? Part of that fallout world is PvP and many would like it to be balanced. This session release was very... rushed and buggy and unbalanced. This session is OK for PvP but there is a lot that needs to be reworked. And its not like this is a great big huge ground breaking information that a player couldn't figure out themselves. BIG INFORMATION WHOA A DEVELOPER DID SOME MATH THAT AN 8 YEAR OLD CAN DO! I would have called this great information if the algebraic formula in regards to causing critical was posted or the critical table on players was posted.
I agree with paladin we both play snipers. The sniper is a bit weak this session, I mean on average 50 damage you shoot twice on a big gunner that is 100 damage, by time action points regenerate the chance that next shot is another 50 damage the big gunner is in range kills sniper in 2 shots, I mean if we average this no bypasses no power shots that 5-6 shots a sniper has to do to kill a big gunner. A sniper simply cannot pull off 6 shots by the time a big gunner runs up 14 hexes, but at least a big gunner is blind and cannot see where the shots are coming from.
The sniper doesn't have the same feel as it did last wipe it just doesn't seem like it causes enough knock outs or knockdown like it did last wipe and the criticals seem off.
Also no test on plasma, ;\ plasma is a 30 ranged laser rifle now it does same damage as laser rifle as far as criticals go. Should have tested plasma I would have liked to see damage in comparison.
But you know the big gunner has it all high hp hard to kill most damage average, bonehead with anti-critical perks kind of overkill. I think bonehead offset the sniper balance honestly. And these averages solar we do not know if these are limb shots normal shot or an average of shooting each body part or what or if bonehead was taken into consideration for laser or sniper.
But it seems the dilemma all are having is big gunners are complaining about sniper builds and snipers complain about big gunners.
I guess the issue and where the bitching is that people want versatility in builds the power house gattling laser or big gun tank builds gets old. It seems this wipe the power house builds are ew snipers, gattling bg tanks the sniper is a bit weak this session, and I guess the sniper is more of a support build but the knock outs and crippling doesn't happen as much. I would trade off for snipers owning everybody in 2-3 shots for ability to do more crippling the sniper rifle does the least amount of crippling shots when compared to other small guns.
And this is referring to the current state of playing sniper, this session has changed a lot snipers were really over powered with RBtE when it did boosted crit power mod.
But you know this information is limited and not every detailed does not take into consideration what the build was other than the mini-gun was calcuated with brd perks? Is this on average out of 10 shots 100 shots 5 shots? Combat armor and no toughness is only thing we know about these averages.
Snipers: More Critical, Even More Critical, RBtE, Better Criticals, BRoF
I mean sure these are average perks all snipers have for a head/eye shooter build but what is the luck and perception of the character and chance to hit max range? I would hope that this is calculated with 10 luck. Also finesse or no finesse? I'm assuming no finesse if average came out to be 50.
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This session is OK for PvP but there is a lot that needs to be reworked. And its not like this is a great big huge ground breaking information that a player couldn't figure out themselves. BIG INFORMATION WHOA A DEVELOPER DID SOME MATH THAT AN 8 YEAR OLD CAN DO! I would have called this great information if the algebraic formula in regards to causing critical was posted or the critical table on players was posted.
These averages are worked out factoring in Bypasses and damage increases from criticals, which players don't know.
Also no test on plasma, ;\ plasma is a 30 ranged laser rifle now it does same damage as laser rifle as far as criticals go. Should have tested plasma I would have liked to see damage in comparison.
62.75 Average for Plasma, discovered an error on the spreadsheet for Sniper Rifle - that average should be 51.72.
Laser Rifle 58.38
Sniper Rifle 51.72
Plasma 62.75
But you know this information is limited and not every detailed does not take into consideration what the build was other than the mini-gun was calcuated with brd perks? Is this on average out of 10 shots 100 shots 5 shots? Combat armor and no toughness is only thing we know about these averages.
Minigun: The 3 different BRD, BRoF
These are calculated averages - these are the results you'd get over many shots.
I mean sure these are average perks all snipers have for a head/eye shooter build but what is the luck and perception of the character and chance to hit max range? I would hope that this is calculated with 10 luck. Also finesse or no finesse? I'm assuming no finesse if average came out to be 50.
10 luck, no finesse. Presuming all shots hit, so Pe doesn't matter.
My question is... is this with target shots on sniper or just single shot to a blue suit?
Guy in CA, as the title suggests ;) ... but aimed to the head.
With Finesse it gives:
Laser Rifle 65.28
Sniper Rifle 57.79
Plasma 69.74
So Finesse is about an 11-14% increase in damage ... and better crit effects on top of course.
For Solar
I tested LSW, Minigun (jhp and ap ammo), avenger minigun (both ammo), m60. Bursting from 20 hexes and then from 5 hexes. The best damage does m60. I can make a video if you want to see
Hard to say much without your build and what you're firing at. I'd be surprised if the Avenger wasn't coming out the winner vs everything. 20 hexes or 5 makes no difference if you have enough skill to hit, as said. The only difference is 1 hex and more than 1 hex.
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Hard to say much without your build and what you're firing at. I'd be surprised if the Avenger wasn't coming out the winner vs everything. 20 hexes or 5 makes no difference if you have enough skill to hit, as said. The only difference is 1 hex and more than 1 hex.
My build 220% skill and 1 x bonus ranged damage. Was firing at my friend who has the same build as I so he had 2x toughness and leather armor mk2. Minigun and LSW sucked and avenger had something better damage but m60 was the best.
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Those conditions give:
Minigun JHP 27
Minigun AP 59.9
m60 70.707
Avenger JHP 32.4
Avenger AP 71.9
With only 1 BRD it favours the m60 too, add more levels and Miniguns gain more
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For Solar
I tested LSW, Minigun (jhp and ap ammo), avenger minigun (both ammo), m60. Bursting from 20 hexes and then from 5 hexes. The best damage does m60. I can make a video if you want to see
avenger with 3xbrd
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With all the BRD its (Still against LA II with 2 Toughness):
Minigun JHP 40.5
Minigun AP 89.9
m60 85.14
Avenger JHP 45.9
Avenger AP 101.9
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With all the BRD its (Still against LA II with 2 Toughness):
Minigun JHP 40.5
m60 77.7
Avenger JHP 45.9
Do not understand why these are so low.
It should be about:
Avenger JHP: 62-74
Minigun: 54-66
M60: 92-123
with LAII + 2 toughness we have DR=45+ammoDR and DT=9
damage=((WeaponDamage+ all BRD)*AmmoDamageMod-DT)*(1-DR/100)*Rounds - is it right formula for non AP damage?
AP ammo is ok:
Avenger AP: 93-111
Minigun AP: 81-99
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I'd used .223 stats for m60, corrected to be 7.62 now
The m60,
26-34 = Average of 30, +7 for BRD then *1.2 damage
-9 from DT
= 35.4 Average damage
LA mk II, 30% DR + 15% from Toughness - 10% from 7.62 = 23.01 damage per bullet.
3.7 bullets hit the target from an m60 => 85.14
Minigun
19.5 Average * 2 for modifier = 39
-9 DT
= 30
LA Mk II, 30 DR + 15 from Toughness + 40% from 5mm JHP = 4.5 per bullet
9 bullets hit => 40.5
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Just to clarify, are you saying these are empirical measures, or are the numbers calculated using the exact formula to determine damage? If it's the latter then this is really useful information in my opinion. If it's the former then I would be interested in knowing more about the test setup and number of trials etc. In any case, it's nice of you to share - thanks!
As far as the whole "omg snipers are so nerfed" argument goes, you gotta remember that dealing damage is only a part of the job of a sniper (whereas it's much more important to a bg), at least when it comes to team play. Doing knockdowns, knockouts, weapon drops and cripples is just as important, and in terms of balancing, it's also hard to quantify these things into a comparative figure. You can't just look at the dps and say which is better. Of course range is also an important factor, and what map you are playing on and what positions and strategy you use is another thing to consider. A sniper is also generally cheaper to maintain.
Having said that, I'm yet to try playing a sniper this season, so I don't have an opinion on whether it's balanced or not. But just because a big gunner has twice the dps of a sniper doesn't necessarily imply that big gunners are better. Just saying.
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The m60,
26-34 = Average of 30, +7 for BRD then *1.2 damage
-9 from DT
= 35.4 Average damage
LA mk II, 30% DR + 15% from Toughness - 10% from 7.62 = 23.01 damage per bullet.
3.7 bullets hit the target from an m60 => 85.14
Do not have m60 at the moment, but as I remember, after wipe it has 30-40 damage
Btw 3,7 bullets can hit target and there is no rounding?
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Ah yes, I gave it a boost because of no run just before the wipe. Good point:
1 BRD: 82.251
3 BRD: 96.681
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Minigun
19.5 Average * 2 for modifier = 39
-9 DT
= 30
LA Mk II, 30 DR + 15 from Toughness + 40% from 5mm JHP = 4.5 per bullet
9 bullets hit => 40.5
5mm JHP has 35% DR mod :)
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It used to, wait for the update.
Incidentally, vs CA and 2 toughness:
Minigun JHP 13.05
Minigun AP 86.8
m60 79.772
Avenger JHP 14.85
Avenger AP 98.8
EDIT: With 3 BRD
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uh, are you sure that 5mm JHP need nerf to 40% DR? ;D
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It makes the JHP and AP switch in the right place on the armours.
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avengers is good only with +7 or +5 dmg fer bullet. only problem is too big difference between the inflicted damage from hex. it is 190-270 and gatling 170-240 against ba.
snipers are boosted and stop crying about low hp, learn to use them.
ew - laser rifles are op and plasma are to weak.
bg- av is good with 3xbrd, mini is toy same lsw, m60 is good with out 3 x brd and it is cheap and easy weapon to get but you cant run on 1hex with it so av is still best bg weapon.
Can you add ap rockets to hinkley so we could test it because expl arent effective.
same can you add bozar to game, i have one but 53hex range build is low hp with low resist. but still it is best sniper in game.
for me it is good as it is but laser rifles are little op and plasmas are to weak.
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uh, are you sure that 5mm JHP need nerf to 40% DR? ;D
jhp is useless.
best way to kill lightly armored chars is cut them with gatling.
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It makes the JHP and AP switch in the right place on the armours.
even now 5mm JHP is absolutely useless in pvp
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if u want to kill ca/ma mk2 guy use avenger with ap ammo or gatling.
i dont see problems with weapons but we need better armors...ca mk2.ba.ea.ncr
just give us bp for them and we will be happy. i know there is no recepture to craft them but i dont think it is a big problem
ca mk2 - ca + 2hp alloy 1good mp 1hq/norm fiber
ba - ca + 3hq alloy 2good mp 1hq/norm fiber
ea - ca + 2hq alloy 2good mp 1hq/norm fiber 2electr parts
ncr - 2hq alloy 2good mp 1hp/norm fiber
pa - 3 mashinery parts (from tanker quest)15 hq alloy 10good mp 5hq fiber item 20ele parts 1activate key/card (special enco like gauss)
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How much damage would make guy with avenger and 3x brd to the guy with only combat armor in game?(without toughness)
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How much damage would make guy with avenger and 3x brd to the guy with only combat armor in game?(without toughness)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3695/avenger.png)
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Laser Rifle 58.38
Plasma 62.75
Don't you think that's terribly wrong that the plasma sacrifice 15 range and is much more expansive to get 4.37 more average damage? No surprise why they almost disappeared.
So Finesse is about an 11-14% increase in damage ... and better crit effects on top of course.
That seem weird. For example if your target wear a BA it's automatically no damage without bypass (70+30). How can the average damage be 10% higher in that case? Except if there is far too much bypass ofc :P
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I am interested to see each individual piece of damage that was done for the laser rifle, sniper rifle and minigun if you have them saved in a file that you can share with us please. e.g. You done 100 bursts or 100 shots and recorded each shots damage separately, I would like to look at each value for all the shots that were done with each weapon.
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That seem weird. For example if your target wear a BA it's automatically no damage without bypass (70+30). How can the average damage be 10% higher in that case? Except if there is far too much bypass ofc
For some reason I was sure I changed it on the perk reworking to ignoring the 30DR after any critical, not just bypasses. This must be one of the things I didn't get to do because the little boy arrived and interrupted me.
Since I did forget this, it is a tiny effect at the moment, indeed. Needs changing.
Don't you think that's terribly wrong that the plasma sacrifice 15 range and is much more expansive to get 4.37 more average damage? No surprise why they almost disappeared.
This is specifically for CA, vs the lower armours Plasma is a lot better than Laser.
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even now 5mm JHP is absolutely useless in pvp
I wouldn't say it was useless, certainly AP is generally better. Though PvP isn't everything.
Anyway, in building the next bit of the spreadsheet, to test bursts and their criticals, I learnt that I had applied the critical damage modifier in error (its applied before DT, not after). So slight amendments to the single shot damages:
Laser Rifle 61.75
Sniper Rifle 57.09
Plasma 67.71
(Fixed) Finesse
Laser Rifle 69.5
Sniper Rifle 64.5
Plasma 72.75
Then I wanted to compare Miniguns using JHP and AP with a critical burst build. 25% crit chance, better crits, spray and pray, not CA and 2 toughness. Calculated with JHP @ 40% DR.
Remember that with 3 BRD the figures were:
Minigun JHP 13.05
Minigun AP 86.8
The crit builds (no BRD) were:
Minigun JHP 68.1
Minigun AP 67.88
Then if you really didn't like somebody and took the 4 crit perks and 3 BRD:
Minigun JHP 109.5
Minigun AP 122.06
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For some reason I was sure I changed it on the perk reworking to ignoring the 30DR after any critical, not just bypasses.
Wow, that seem suddenly totally OP!
This is specifically for CA, vs the lower armours Plasma is a lot better than Laser.
Pretty much only on metal because of it's very high laser resistance. And well, most people I shoot are in CA (when it's not tesla helmet!). Basically, plasma should be near avenger/gatling level for close range fighting against CA, and right now it is worthless because your average plasma char will have less HP and much less damage output for a lower range (plus the unability to point blank burst).
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Wow, that seem suddenly totally OP!
Pretty much only on metal because of it's very high laser resistance. And well, most people I shoot are in CA (when it's not tesla helmet!). Basically, plasma should be near avenger/gatling level for close range fighting against CA, and right now it is worthless because your average plasma char will have less HP and much less damage output for a lower range (plus the unability to point blank burst).
Yes I agree, the plasma rifle is now a 30hex laser rifle.
But I see these are all headshots :D those big huge bypasses shots are to eyes usually with sniper and laser rifle.
I guess what we can make out, which I think most experienced players know already that big gunners is guaranteed to do its damage every shot while targeted shot characters relies on a lucky shot to deal big damage.
These are averages but overall I think target shot builds do more damage than big gunners when they get their bypasses and a good critical. But on average big gunner well always guarantee to kill in 2-4 shots.
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For some reason I was sure I changed it on the perk reworking to ignoring the 30DR after any critical, not just bypasses. This must be one of the things I didn't get to do because the little boy arrived and interrupted me.
At this way Finesse will be certainly trait for snipers like it was on previous sessions with Fast-shot for biggunners.
Because snipers will have 90-95% critical chance without any DR bad effects...
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They were headshots because you can't reliably do eye shots each time, its simple enough to change it round to eye shots though.
As for Finesse being OP. First of all, it would only be a good/great choice when targetting head/eyes. (Before anyone says they are the only useful ones, they aren't!)
But consider
Before the Wipe:
3 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, Targetting Eyes
After Wipe:
2 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, RBtE, Targetting Eyes, Finesse
Both of these have the same crit chance targetting CA Helmets, but the afterwipe version takes an extra trait slot and has the -crit roll effect of the helmet and the 30% DR for the 5-10% shots that aren't criticals.
You also have the potential of MoS and Bonehead for a total of -30 on the table (-10 after Better Crits is added) vs the standard +20 before wipe.
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Good thinking Solar, approved!
-10 vs +20, that's a pretty big difference, snipers've been nerfed pretty badly, BGs shouldn't have any doubts :)
But also BGs now have to choose between more survivability or damage, which is a good compromise.
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@ Solar,
So what is the current state of 'finesse' trait. Is the -30% to DR void on bypass only or on all critical hits. I am thinking of making a sniper with finesse so a clear answer to this would be appreciated. Your last post seems to imply that all critical shots will not take into account the -30% to DR malus from using 'finesse' trait, if so has this been implemented yet or is this something that will be implemented in the future?
Regards.
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Solar, can you share your information with Opera so that it is publicly available on his character planner's damage calculator.
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They were headshots because you can't reliably do eye shots each time, its simple enough to change it round to eye shots though.
Inaccurate testing witch provides false information about the weapons actual efficiency.
In practice when you are engaging a target you will be hit most of the times in eyes , there are two ways how to determine that either you need to make a " hyperbole " an assumption of approximate values of how many eyeshots and headshots are done in normal combat situations or do actual testing of the average eye/headshot ratio and only then you do the average damage test including both witch will significally change the results.
That's not all , maximum and minimal damage is an indicator too. If you take in account both minigun and a lazer rifles maximum and minimal values then compare them , it could be boiled down to fireball vs lighting (from diablo 2), witch is something to think about too.
Otherwise these tests are funny :) you just can't purely always look at flat numbers and tell that everything is okay , it won't work like that. For example you tell so much out of just some average damage values that are incorrect and don't include simple things like range , it isn't that easy , but if you wish to determine something about all this then think out of the box.
Oh yeah i wanted to ask you , i've done some tests and ... why crit roll gained from perks at least from those who gives protection don't affect bypass chance , is that intended ?
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Alright, last session, laser rifle had about the same average dmg done to eyes than sg snipers, the 5hex range were a good tradeoff for the higher rate of fire (being 2 shot at less costs) and the higher peak dmg.
On targetted on head however, laser sucks balls.
If now even the dmg on head is bigger than the sg snipers damage, something is wrong. This is the simple reason why laser seems op this season and it could easily be fixed. Lasers are just even less about average dmg, they are about deadly eyeshots.
And solar, are you implying that every sniper took 3mc last session?
Last session standard build:
150-170hp, 75% critchance, 12ap with brof, 11-12PE
Last session's doubleshot build.
150hp, 61-63% critchance, 14ap with brof, 10PE
some went down to 110 hp to either compensate for crit or for PE
This session standard:
137hp, 85% raw (no rbte) 14ap with brof, 12PE
with CA helmet that's down to the usual 75% that we are used to, rbte would act as a third mc and most people who made their snipers in the first weeks of the session took mc over rbte.
What im trying to say is, that the critchance already are the same as last session. In fact, snipers got a huge buff by being able to create doubleshot builds more comfortably. We also know that noone actually uses all those anticrit perks except for the bonehead (and only because BG's have leftover special points with the current system).
As far as traits are concerned, I feel even less forced to have to take a certain trait that last season. I actually went with only chem reliant and loner for pure convenience due to lack of general information.
Now coming to the final point: Why the hell alter finesse? Apart from the fact that the whole server would have to remake every kind of sniper/melee build, I don't see why it has to be changed so desperately.
The HP of bg's didnt change, snipers hp dropped a bit and the general dmg output is higher. Snipers are forced to use their range more effectively but are really deadly. The only off things are the laser rifle dmg as pointed out before and the fact that sniper rifle and 223 pistol have the same average damage, that also is not true to the way it has been since f2.
So as a final question to you solar, what exactly is the reason that makes you want to change finesse so drastically?
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So as a final question to you solar, what exactly is the reason that makes you want to change finesse so drastically?
Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.
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Otherwise these tests are funny you just can't purely always look at flat numbers and tell that everything is okay , it won't work like that.
The initial purpose was simply to give a rough guideline for average damage for criticals vs a typical burst, because I was wondering about it one day, not meant to be a thorough disection of life, universe and everything ;)
The crit roll thing, thats the case at the moment if you have low luck. I actually did edit the table a little to make it less harsh on low luck (though they still suffer) so it will be a bit more noticable after the next update.
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ok, so after erasing the plasma tank from gameplay you want to erase the 2 sniper "classes" "dmg sniper" and "crippler" as well? way to go.
edit: and lets not forget the BG sneaker, who apparently was too OP last session
Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.
So the final result is : NOTHING ecept that whole server has to remake their snipers. nice.
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Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.
That's right between the eyes, which was very weak, hense the change.
Finesse ... well, its not used very often and currently is useful for very few builds. As for snipers being improved, other builds have been too.
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if you want to buff rbte, make it ignore 75% lol.
Finesse still has its use if it still alter the crit tables as it seemed to do last session. It's just that now wiht the buffed dmg, everyone makes the dmg sniper first.
Actually, since it's so easy to just kill an enemy sniper, there's no use for crippling him. The best crippler would be a laser, but nobody really used all out laser crippler last session, so it would be kind of experimental and not a mainstream build. Doesnt mean finesse is useless.
aside from that, it would buff crit bursters as well.
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The initial purpose was simply to give a rough guideline for average damage for criticals vs a typical burst, because I was wondering about it one day, not meant to be a thorough disection of life, universe and everything ;)
Seriously ? No offense but you posted all this and argued with people to prove your point only because you was wondering about it one day ? I don't think that's the case , sorry. I think you wanted to show people that lazer rifle doesn't need any nerfing because it's average damage is okaish in head , what sounds completely ridiculous to me.
This whole thing was somehow presented by many players that lazer rifle is to powerful for it's damage potential , range capabilities and it's availability and it's buff was unnecessary. That's why you made this topic.
That's right between the eyes, which was very weak, hense the change.
Hmm ? 50% RBTE , buffed fineese and buffed helmets crit chance modifier , this all fits together but in the end is quite useless. Do the math.
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I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.
Its exactly the same as when I produced numbers (and then had to do actual tests to prove it) regarding the Avenger. Players perceived it to be too weak, so it wasn't used and then got a boost because of this - even though I was perfectly happy with the numbers and justification behind them :P
Finesse still has its use if it still alter the crit tables as it seemed to do last session.
Its never done that.
Benefit +10% to Critical Chance
Penalty +30% to your targets' DR
Only difference to that is some affect on armour's crit mod, off the top of my head it was -25%, but it was a small effect.
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ok, tryin again. So when changing finesse is because of buffed helmets, why buff helmets then? By that you force every player to use more critperks, which overall results in less flexibility and less specialization, dumbing down the build system.
The 10% of the current helmet were enough to make plasma tanks unviable, which was one of the best builds last session imho. At least the most fun and effective to play out of the 20 different builds I had. Even with the current plasma rifle I would have made a new one to see how it does this season, but not with a 10% helmet. And surely not with a 20% helmet.
It's not about what perks are available, but what builds are viable. What you do here is nerfing snipers that already got nerfed needlessly.
edit:I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.
the question is if you intentionally buffed laser snipers or if the new stats for this session were just not tested enough. If you want to revert back to last sessions balance in that aspect, just match the eye dmg to that ov a sniper rifle, maybe make it soemthin like 5-10% bigger at most but not more than that.
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I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.
So after after all this , there's no fact behind it really ?
Its exactly the same as when I produced numbers (and then had to do actual tests to prove it) regarding the Avenger. Players perceived it to be too weak, so it wasn't used and then got a boost because of this - even though I was perfectly happy with the numbers and justification behind them :P
When avenger was too weak ? Oh damn ... you don't mean last session when players where providing massive hyperboles for lsw being the ultimate weapon ? If that's true i remember that topic , that was ridiculous.
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Just an idea, but how about you ask some members of big pvp gangs first about the subject, and not relying on forum psots by random people? I dont want to point fingers, but testing bursts on 5 and on 20 hex? Do devs rely on posts like these for their "community response"?
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Hell yeah , i was wondering about this too. I mean no offense but there are quite a lot of players who participate in these discussions who just have whatsoever no idea what their talking about.
Solar maybe you need actual testers , someone who can give reliable feedback ? :P ... factions who participate in organized PvP obviously will have potentially viable individuals that can provide better feedback than the usual loner who got squashed by a lazer rifle and now he comes to forum to unleash his fury. :)
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Heh, of course I ask pvp players ::) That doesn't mean those players agree with each other, just like new players disagree with each other.
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Solar, can you share your information with Opera so that it is publicly available on his character planner's damage calculator.
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Suffer!
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Heh, of course I ask pvp players ::) That doesn't mean those players agree with each other, just like new players disagree with each other.
I have a proposal then, how about we pick one specific issue, for example the balancing of sg sniper in comparison to laser sniper, the balancing of Tesla armors with combat armors, ammo modifiers, something like that.
Then every gang, no matter how small or big has a week or so to discuss this issue within their gang and then a spokesman can post their solution, backed up by evidence or empirical data and the devs can use it as input, the whole thing being completely voluntary. I believe though that there are quite a number of people out there that would love to straighten things out in the pvp/tc system.
I know, it sounds rather elitist as in "only the pvp apes get to decide" but I think it's important to know where people come from. It's certainly a difference if a random loner spawns reno commercial to sell stuff, gets insta'd by laser and then goes to complain on forum or if people like Crazy, t888 or lidae spend tons of hours and caps on making and testing builds, running weapon tests and trying to get down to the roots of the game mechanics.
In the end I'm sure we can find a solution that makes everyone happy, instead of spam and ragequit caused by trial and error patches.
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The problem is, even in one gang, people might have different opinions. Gangs are not composed of one hive mind and minions, who obey. But the idea is okish.
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if you come to different/multiple conclusions then that's fine as well, the idea is to have a clearer picture at the end with more than just "ideas" and the random troll posts inbetween.
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Doesn't feel like solar approves any of this , i can understand why because i wouldn't if i process and digest this information a little bit more. I'd be happy if he only would pay more attention to those who have something worth to say , not just deny every single random senseless yapping , you know that deep buthurt when players post while being disappointed or angry ... in the end nothing good comes out of it.
or if people like Crazy, t888 or lidae spend tons of hours and caps on making and testing builds
I have acknowledged that there are individuals who posses more valuable information and present their point more constructive due to their extensive experience and time spent on specific actions or at least make a good point post after post , it's hard to not notice that. When two of these kind of individuals meet , usually there's no problem.
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I don't mind if you do something like that, I just doubt very much that you'd get everyone to agree ... it will be like herding cats ;)
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I don't live in happy land , multiple players from different factions can't agree on everything always it's obvious.
So what if you just picked some players from each big faction who represents the team , give some kind of sub-forum for them to discuss issues about balance and raised concerns from players , to determine the amount of hyperbole per concern make sure if those concerns have whatsoever solid ground under them. Each time you decide to implement something , you have some new ideas or you are not sure on something that touches weapon balance , builds etc. etc. you have some people to talk with , who will represent a lot of experienced players who knows what's the current situation , seems more efficient than to just argue with random people on public forum and prove things that doesn't need any proof , waste of time.
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So what if you just picked some players from each big faction who represents the team , give some kind of sub-forum for them
Players that do not belong to a "big faction" aren't worthy enough?
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i dotn like t888 but he has a point. there is a difference between solo crafter guy and gang who spend tons of h on testing and making new builds
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Players that do not belong to a "big faction" aren't worthy enough?
Alright , let's rephrase that to " from experienced factions " the gang might be small but has very experienced players in terms of PvP and everything around it , that just might have the player who can contribute in constructive discussions and add the two cents necessary to build up a consensus that leads to logical , reasonable choices for the right course of action. Two heads are wiser than one , this would benefit everyone both the developers and the community , saving time and nerves if done right and properly , no more " i'm guessing that will be balanced " facts , experience , real practice how things work in game this is what hand picked players can provide , this way the most efficiently. Most of the suggestions about weapons and balance in public forum leads nowhere , due to wrong persons participating in good suggestions , providing false , incorrect information that leads to confusion about the actual topic.
i dotn like t888 but ...
I'm the " arrogant bitch " center of the world ... just kidding i feel the love in the air !
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Players that do not belong to a "big faction" aren't worthy enough?
It's more than hard to do tc without getting into one of the major gangs. Reno pvp and tc pvp are two different things, it's only natural that people who never did tc shouldn't provide feedback on it.
Also, I was talking about organised feedback. By letting each gang speak for itself you already have a "condensed" feedback and you know what it's worth. How likely is it that a loner has sufficient amounts of tc experience with every weapon class in every town?
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I'm the " arrogant bitch " center of the world ... just kidding i feel the love in the air !
you are ruskie, so it is more like love between human and animal...and i am walking on two legs ;]
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Make f update and change tc and give us armors
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Players that do not belong to a "big faction" aren't worthy enough?
So, if you were to make a competitive beat-em up game, would you rather hire Justin Wong to balance it out, or would you go with your school buddies who sometimes play Tekken when they're drunk? If you were to make a competitive shooter, would you hire fatal1ty, or would you go with your friend Bubba who sometimes beats a bot on hardcore in q3? If you were to make a competitive RTS, would you talk to SlayerS`BoxeR`, or Mike who likes to play Settlers 1 on his Amiga emulator due to nostalgia? I hope the answer is obvious and you realize now how silly your question was.
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would you talk to SlayerS`BoxeR
I'd talk to Lee Young Ho (AKA By.FlaSh). BoxeR's time is more or less over.
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crap even admins are trolling
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making fineese not have +30%dr on EVERY critical is stupid and i demand it to change...
just buff rbte thats all !
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I've done some tests. Tested the character with 3 x bonus ranged damage and 200% big guns against character wearing combat armor and with 2 x toughness perks. Avenger with AP ammo did 79 damage, m60 did 69 damage, light support weapon did 27 damage.