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[Swarm]

Wow, that seem suddenly totally OP!
Pretty much only on metal because of it's very high laser resistance. And well, most people I shoot are in CA (when it's not tesla helmet!). Basically, plasma should be near avenger/gatling level for close range fighting against CA, and right now it is worthless because your average plasma char will have less HP and much less damage output for a lower range (plus the unability to point blank burst).

Yes I agree, the plasma rifle is now a 30hex laser rifle.

But I see these are all headshots those big huge bypasses shots are to eyes usually with sniper and laser rifle. 

I guess what we can make out, which I think most experienced players know already that big gunners is guaranteed to do its damage every shot while targeted shot characters relies on a lucky shot to deal big damage.

These are averages but overall I think target shot builds do more damage than big gunners when they get their bypasses and a good critical. But on average big gunner well always guarantee to kill in 2-4 shots.

[pti4ka]

For some reason I was sure I changed it on the perk reworking to ignoring the 30DR after any critical, not just bypasses. This must be one of the things I didn't get to do because the little boy arrived and interrupted me.

At this way Finesse will be certainly trait for snipers like it was on previous sessions with Fast-shot for biggunners.
Because snipers will have 90-95% critical chance without any DR bad effects...

[Solar]

They were headshots because you can't reliably do eye shots each time, its simple enough to change it round to eye shots though.

As for Finesse being OP. First of all, it would only be a good/great choice when targetting head/eyes. (Before anyone says they are the only useful ones, they aren't!)

But consider

Before the Wipe:
3 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, Targetting Eyes

After Wipe:
2 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, RBtE, Targetting Eyes, Finesse

Both of these have the same crit chance targetting CA Helmets, but the afterwipe version takes an extra trait slot and has the -crit roll effect of the helmet and the 30% DR for the 5-10% shots that aren't criticals.

You also have the potential of MoS and Bonehead for a total of -30 on the table (-10 after Better Crits is added) vs the standard +20 before wipe.

[Floodnik]

Good thinking Solar, approved!
-10 vs +20, that's a pretty big difference, snipers've been nerfed pretty badly, BGs shouldn't have any doubts
But also BGs now have to choose between more survivability or damage, which is a good compromise.

[matemyday@hotmail.com]

@ Solar,

So what is the current state of 'finesse' trait. Is the -30% to DR void on bypass only or on all critical hits. I am thinking of making a sniper with finesse so a clear answer to this would be appreciated. Your last post seems to imply that all critical shots will not take into account the -30% to DR malus from using 'finesse' trait, if so has this been implemented yet or is this something that will be implemented in the future?

Regards.

[yoz]

Solar, can you share your information with Opera so that it is publicly available on his character planner's damage calculator.

[T-888]

They were headshots because you can't reliably do eye shots each time, its simple enough to change it round to eye shots though.

Inaccurate testing witch provides false information about the weapons actual efficiency.

In practice when you are engaging a target you will be hit most of the times in eyes , there are two ways how to determine that either you need to make a " hyperbole " an assumption of approximate values of how many eyeshots and headshots are done in normal combat situations or do actual testing of the average eye/headshot ratio and only then you do the average damage test including both witch will significally change the results.

That's not all , maximum and minimal damage is an indicator too. If you take in account both minigun and a lazer rifles maximum and minimal values then compare them , it could be boiled down to fireball vs lighting (from diablo 2), witch is something to think about too.

Otherwise these tests are funny you just can't purely always look at flat numbers and tell that everything is okay , it won't work like that. For example you tell so much out of just some average damage values that are incorrect and don't include simple things like range , it isn't that easy , but if you wish to determine something about all this then think out of the box.

Oh yeah i wanted to ask you , i've done some tests and ... why crit roll gained from perks at least from those who gives protection don't affect bypass chance , is that intended ?

[John Porno]

Alright, last session, laser rifle had about the same average dmg done to eyes than sg snipers, the 5hex range were a good tradeoff for the higher rate of fire (being 2 shot at less costs) and the higher peak dmg.

On targetted on head however, laser sucks balls.

If now even the dmg on head is bigger than the sg snipers damage, something is wrong. This is the simple reason why laser seems op this season and it could easily be fixed. Lasers are just even less about average dmg, they are about deadly eyeshots.

And solar, are you implying that every sniper took 3mc last session?
Last session standard build:
150-170hp, 75% critchance, 12ap with brof, 11-12PE
Last session's doubleshot build.
150hp, 61-63% critchance, 14ap with brof, 10PE
some went down to 110 hp to either compensate for crit or for PE

This session standard:
137hp, 85% raw (no rbte) 14ap with brof, 12PE
with CA helmet that's down to the usual 75% that we are used to, rbte would act as a third mc and most people who made their snipers in the first weeks of the session took mc over rbte.

What im trying to say is, that the critchance already are the same as last session. In fact, snipers got a huge buff by being able to create doubleshot builds more comfortably. We also know that noone actually uses all those anticrit perks except for the bonehead (and only because BG's have leftover special points with the current system).

As far as traits are concerned, I feel even less forced to have to take a certain trait that last season. I actually went with only chem reliant and loner for pure convenience due to lack of general information.

Now coming to the final point: Why the hell alter finesse? Apart from the fact that the whole server would have to remake every kind of sniper/melee build, I don't see why it has to be changed so desperately.

The HP of bg's didnt change, snipers hp dropped a bit and the general dmg output is higher. Snipers are forced to use their range more effectively but are really deadly. The only off things are the laser rifle dmg as pointed out before and the fact that sniper rifle and 223 pistol have the same average damage, that also is not true to the way it has been since f2.

So as a final question to you solar, what exactly is the reason that makes you want to change finesse so drastically?

[T-888]

So as a final question to you solar, what exactly is the reason that makes you want to change finesse so drastically?

Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.

[Solar]

Otherwise these tests are funny  you just can't purely always look at flat numbers and tell that everything is okay , it won't work like that.

The initial purpose was simply to give a rough guideline for average damage for criticals vs a typical burst, because I was wondering about it one day, not meant to be a thorough disection of life, universe and everything

The crit roll thing, thats the case at the moment if you have low luck. I actually did edit the table a little to make it less harsh on low luck (though they still suffer) so it will be a bit more noticable after the next update.

[John Porno]

ok, so after erasing the plasma tank from gameplay you want to erase the 2 sniper "classes" "dmg sniper" and "crippler" as well? way to go.

edit: and lets not forget the BG sneaker, who apparently was too OP last session

Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.

So the final result is : NOTHING ecept that whole server has to remake their snipers. nice.

[Solar]

Because he is buffing helmets. To even it out at the same time fineese , quite pointless if you ask me.

That's right between the eyes, which was very weak, hense the change.

Finesse ... well, its not used very often and currently is useful for very few builds. As for snipers being improved, other builds have been too.

[John Porno]

if you want to buff rbte, make it ignore 75% lol.

Finesse still has its use if it still alter the crit tables as it seemed to do last session. It's just that now wiht the buffed dmg, everyone makes the dmg sniper first.

Actually, since it's so easy to just kill an enemy sniper, there's no use for crippling him. The best crippler would be a laser, but nobody really used all out laser crippler last session, so it would be kind of experimental and not a mainstream build. Doesnt mean finesse is useless.

aside from that, it would buff crit bursters as well.

[T-888]

The initial purpose was simply to give a rough guideline for average damage for criticals vs a typical burst, because I was wondering about it one day, not meant to be a thorough disection of life, universe and everything

Seriously ? No offense but you posted all this and argued with people to prove your point only because you was wondering about it one day ? I don't think that's the case , sorry. I think you wanted to show people that lazer rifle doesn't need any nerfing because it's average damage is okaish in head , what sounds completely ridiculous to me.

This whole thing was somehow presented by many players that lazer rifle is to powerful for it's damage potential , range capabilities and it's availability and it's buff was unnecessary. That's why you made this topic.

That's right between the eyes, which was very weak, hense the change.

Hmm ? 50% RBTE , buffed fineese and buffed helmets crit chance modifier , this all fits together but in the end is quite useless. Do the math.

[Solar]

I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.

Its exactly the same as when I produced numbers (and then had to do actual tests to prove it) regarding the Avenger. Players perceived it to be too weak, so it wasn't used and then got a boost because of this - even though I was perfectly happy with the numbers and justification behind them

Finesse still has its use if it still alter the crit tables as it seemed to do last session.

Its never done that.

Benefit  +10% to Critical Chance 
Penalty  +30% to your targets' DR 

Only difference to that is some affect on armour's crit mod, off the top of my head it was -25%, but it was a small effect.