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[John Porno]

ok, tryin again. So when changing finesse is because of buffed helmets, why buff helmets then? By that you force every player to use more critperks, which overall results in less flexibility and less specialization, dumbing down the build system.

The 10% of the current helmet were enough to make plasma tanks unviable, which was one of the best builds last session imho. At least the most fun and effective to play out of the 20 different builds I had. Even with the current plasma rifle I would have made a new one to see how it does this season, but not with a 10% helmet. And surely not with a 20% helmet.

It's not about what perks are available, but what builds are viable. What you do here is nerfing snipers that already got nerfed needlessly.

edit:

I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.

the question is if you intentionally buffed laser snipers or if the new stats for this session were just not tested enough. If you want to revert back to last sessions balance in that aspect, just match the eye dmg to that ov a sniper rifle, maybe make it soemthin like 5-10% bigger at most but not more than that.

[T-888]

I was wondering if the whine had any basis in fact. As I've said several times, something can be balanced, but players perceptions cause it to dominate, if that turns out to be the case and we only see Laser snipers then it'll be changed.

So after after all this , there's no fact behind it really ?

Its exactly the same as when I produced numbers (and then had to do actual tests to prove it) regarding the Avenger. Players perceived it to be too weak, so it wasn't used and then got a boost because of this - even though I was perfectly happy with the numbers and justification behind them

When avenger was too weak ? Oh damn ... you don't mean last session when players where providing massive hyperboles for lsw being the ultimate weapon ? If that's true i remember that topic , that was ridiculous.

[John Porno]

Just an idea, but how about you ask some members of big pvp gangs first about the subject, and not relying on forum psots by random people? I dont want to point fingers, but testing bursts on 5 and on 20 hex? Do devs rely on posts like these for their "community response"?

[T-888]

Hell yeah , i was wondering about this too. I mean no offense but there are quite a lot of players who participate in these discussions who just have whatsoever no idea what their talking about.

Solar maybe you need actual testers , someone who can give reliable feedback ?  ... factions who participate in organized PvP obviously will have potentially viable individuals that can provide better feedback than the usual loner who got squashed by a lazer rifle and now he comes to forum to unleash his fury.

[Solar]

Heh, of course I ask pvp players  That doesn't mean those players agree with each other, just like new players disagree with each other.

[yoz]

Solar, can you share your information with Opera so that it is publicly available on his character planner's damage calculator.

[Jellyfish]

Suffer!

[John Porno]

Heh, of course I ask pvp players  That doesn't mean those players agree with each other, just like new players disagree with each other.

I have a proposal then, how about we pick one specific issue, for example the balancing of sg sniper in comparison to laser sniper, the balancing of Tesla armors with combat armors, ammo modifiers, something like that.
Then every gang, no matter how small or big has a week or so to discuss this issue within their gang and then a spokesman can post their solution, backed up by evidence or empirical data and the devs can use it as input, the whole thing being completely voluntary. I believe though that there are quite a number of people out there that would love to straighten things out in the pvp/tc system.

I know, it sounds rather elitist as in "only the pvp apes get to decide" but I think it's important to know where people come from. It's certainly a difference if a random loner spawns reno commercial to sell stuff, gets insta'd by laser and then goes to complain on forum or if people like Crazy, t888 or lidae spend tons of hours and caps on making and testing builds, running weapon tests and trying to get down to the roots of the game mechanics.

In the end I'm sure we can find a solution that makes everyone happy, instead of spam and ragequit caused by trial and error patches.

[Sarakin]

The problem is, even in one gang, people might have different opinions. Gangs are not composed of one hive mind and minions, who obey. But the idea is okish.

[John Porno]

if you come to different/multiple conclusions then that's fine as well, the idea is to have a clearer picture at the end with more than just "ideas" and the random troll posts inbetween.

[T-888]

Doesn't feel like solar approves any of this , i can understand why because i wouldn't if i process and digest this information a little bit more. I'd be happy if he only would pay more attention to those who have something worth to say , not just deny every single random senseless yapping , you know that deep buthurt when players post while being disappointed or angry ... in the end nothing good comes out of it.

or if people like Crazy, t888 or lidae spend tons of hours and caps on making and testing builds

I have acknowledged that there are individuals who posses more valuable information and present their point more constructive due to their extensive experience and time spent on specific actions or at least make a good point post after post , it's hard to not notice that. When two of these kind of individuals meet , usually there's no problem.

[Solar]

I don't mind if you do something like that, I just doubt very much that you'd get everyone to agree ... it will be like herding cats

[T-888]

I don't live in happy land , multiple players from different factions can't agree on everything always it's obvious.

So what if you just picked some players from each big faction who represents the team , give some kind of sub-forum for them to discuss issues about balance and raised concerns from players , to determine the amount of hyperbole per concern make sure if those concerns have whatsoever solid ground under them. Each time you decide to implement something , you have some new ideas or you are not sure on something that touches weapon balance , builds etc. etc. you have some people to talk with , who will represent a lot of experienced players who knows what's the current situation , seems more efficient than to just argue with random people on public forum and prove things that doesn't need any proof , waste of time.

[Izual]

So what if you just picked some players from each big faction who represents the team , give some kind of sub-forum for them

Players that do not belong to a "big faction" aren't worthy enough?

[Crab_people]

i dotn like t888 but he has a point. there is a difference between solo crafter guy and gang who spend tons of h on testing and making new builds