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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => News and Announcements => Topic started by: Bartosz on August 16, 2011, 01:03:36 pm
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Just wanted to inform you that your input is still very much needed and valuable, though it may sometimes feel the other way. As usually, the blog post have been prepared (to emphasis it a little bit more than normal forum post):
http://fonline2238.blogspot.com/2011/08/gathering-waiting.html
Read, read!
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ha i just read this 5 seconds before you posted it. :P
am glad you are putting more things in the dev blog. :)
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Thanks for Sharing your feeling/idea about the development of 2238.
As player, it's realy nice to see what will or could be the game in the future.
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I am for scavenging option but we also need some decent auction or marketplace to safely trade resources for those who want to craft but not grind resources or not all of them. See my suggestion http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17827.0 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17827.0)
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As for scavenging, there should be encounters with goods, like : You encountered an abandonded mine or You encountered field of fruid guarded by mantis. So you would have to roam wasteland and wait for the encounter to pop up. This could be improved with various perk and NPCs.
As for hunting, I really dont get how it is meant. Is it hunting of brahmins, mutants or other NPCs ?
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As for scavenging for materials, looking for them in standart WM encounter should stay limited to basic resources and only very small chance for HQ ones to get in standart encounter. Even with removed possibility to constantly jump in one square to farm them, the activity is not that entertaining.
If you would like to make obtaining materials fun, I recomend idea of scavange in fixed areas, where you would have much bigger chance to meet some players. Lets say they are numerous, with maybe guarded entrances, with a lot of submaps. There would be barrells with their own cooldown that player could try to scavange. Results would wary, they could be tied with skills, gathering standart materials in there wouldnt increase your CD as much as in normal encounter, there could be some more or less dangerous NPCs etc. Options are numerous.
So in conlusion:
0.Players would still have normal cumulative cooldown.
1.Normal materials, like fibers, fruits, wood, still avaiable in random encounters and in fixed locations like Modoc and Waterworks.
2.There could be a chance to meet some HQ materials at random, like there is a chance to meet car with FCC.
3.There would still be fixed locations like HQ mines.
4.There would Scavange locations, lets 8 maps of ruins, connected together like normal town where you could scavenge and find various resources...and meet some players in the process.
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If you would like to make obtaining materials fun, I recomend idea of scavange in fixed areas, where you would have much bigger chance to meet some players. Lets say they are numerous, with maybe guarded entrances, with a lot of submaps. There would be barrells with their own cooldown that player could try to scavange. Results would wary, they could be tied with skills, gathering standart materials in there wouldnt increase your CD as much as in normal encounter, there could be some more or less dangerous NPCs etc. Options are numerous.
This would be the best alternative. Lots of places like waterworks, themepark and so on.
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As for scavenging for materials, looking for them in standart WM encounter should stay limited to basic resources and only very small chance for HQ ones to get in standart encounter. Even with removed possibility to constantly jump in one square to farm them, the activity is not that entertaining.
If you would like to make obtaining materials fun, I recomend idea of scavange in fixed areas, where you would have much bigger chance to meet some players. Lets say they are numerous, with maybe guarded entrances, with a lot of submaps. There would be barrells with their own cooldown that player could try to scavange. Results would wary, they could be tied with skills, gathering standart materials in there wouldnt increase your CD as much as in normal encounter, there could be some more or less dangerous NPCs etc. Options are numerous.
So in conlusion:
0.Players would still have normal cumulative cooldown.
1.Normal materials, like fibers, fruits, wood, still avaiable in random encounters and in fixed locations like Modoc and Waterworks.
2.There could be a chance to meet some HQ materials at random, like there is a chance to meet car with FCC.
3.There would still be fixed locations like HQ mines.
4.There would Scavange locations, lets 8 maps of ruins, connected together like normal town where you could scavenge and find various resources...and meet some players in the process.
Cooldowns must go. They contribute nothing, everyone can just dual log with proxy and bypass them easily. They don't stop anyone from getting tons of gear, they don't slow down this process either, only make you mad. Fun > cooldowns. Gathering is used to create stuff later used for PvE/PvP. Mining/crafting isn't fun, it's just getting ready for the main part of the game, why do you want to slow it down and only piss off players? You craft -> you die -> you lose your stuff -> can't proceed because of dumb cooldowns. Stuff is way too easily lost to have cooldowns in this game.
I remember times when items could be found on appropriate WM tiles. Fruits/wood/fibers were ALWAYS at the west of Modoc, ore and minerals were found on mountainous encounters etc.
We already have unprotected locations with resources - HQ mines. You need carry weight to get any decent amount of ore from there, but you also need a gun to defend yourself. So in the end people go there just with sledgehammers so they don't lose much because they know fighting just doesn't work. Loners get screwed again and gangs rape everyone they want again.
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I have only played this game with the cooldown time in effect, so I know no other way. It sounds silly to make no cooldown. I mean I can just go grab my brahmin and mine for an hour and be set with equipment for life (HQ and all). Seeing how I like the cooldown time, Obv would I love the hunting idea. It keeps the cap flow in check. I mean...
1. Mine and wait (No change)
2. Mine and hunt (This is what I do but this will be more useful.)
3. Purchase and mine (Gives you something to look for in fights and not have to wait for cooldown if you want.)
While scaving idea is "differerent". I mean what happens if you encouter another player? Twice the motivation to kill them. This happens already in HQ mines I know but now it will happen in regular locations as well. I don't like this one. :):) ;D
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For current economy cooldowns are neccesary. Most of the issues were fixed with cumulative CD, that was great improvement.
You are afraid that that there will be a lot of PKing in scavange location? Yes thats true. But the positive effects would be.
1.Small scale pvp would be more common. That would be good for guys that like to do that.
2.There would be a positive motivation to find a group or a friend and try to gather with them. Because in this game gang and cooperation makes it better. It would be another reason why to interact with people. Yes loners will have it harder. But dont forget that loners in mmporg and especialy in Fonline should be the toughest guys, that choose it because they want a challenge, not because they dont want to interact and craft in their caves.
Dont get me wrong, I am not against that playstyle, but it should be hard, its not single player.
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1.Small scale pvp would be more common. That would be good for guys that like to do that.
what? small scale....pvp, don you see it? Fonline is full of cowards, the only way to make two guys fight is giving BA and Avenger to one guy and left the other alone.
How do you imagine small scale pvp? guys with LA or Combat Jacket fighting with Eagle Deserts and Hunting Rifles? guys like those will obviously shout "PEACE" in encounters, and then observe if the enemy is beatable, if not they will speak like pussyes "hi and goodbye".
The only way PvP can be in ghatering areas is by a bunch of well armed guys, or mercs waiting to kill as many bluesuits in one place.
Aniway im still liking your idea, i love that stuff of smale scale PvP, but its impossible due to the players.
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Fonline is full of cowards, the only way to make two guys fight is giving BA and Avenger to one guy and left the other alone.
You have some points, but it would be in the nature of such locations that there would be a chance to meet 2on2 etc. Lets have a look at Gecko mine for instance. Lot of times there was a guy or two waiting for miners. They usualy were succesfull in killing the miners and sometimes miners come back in an armed group or alone. Thats what we could call small scale pvp.
Now imagine that there is like 20 of such locations. Big gangs would concentrate on TC, maybe domination in some other areas. Lets have a look at the scavange area. In the nature of those areas with various entrances is that it is not easy to camp them. Most of the time when you with a friend or two will meet just very similar group who wants to scavange, not the big one that camp the entrance. It wouldnt be very much fun for the big groups, because they have other pvp thats more profitable in terms of fun&equip. Of course sometimes one group will have 3 members and the other 6, that will happen. But it wouldnt have to happen so often with numerous locations.
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Perhaps gathering/PvP facilities could make use of this suggestion
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18108.0;topicseen (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18108.0;topicseen)
So the guards might only let you enter with weaponry for "defensive" purposes but not "offensive". That way a bunch of rookies could get together with their shot-guns and flamers and have an actual chance at surviving it.
As for cool downs and dual logging etc. it seems like the food thing will actually counteract it a bit if its easier to speed up your cool down with water and food than it is to deal with three different chars (which I never do though, so i can't comment too much), also while the cool downs still exist they are getting tweaked so who knows...
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Doh! no searching via encounters it will generate big lags again, as in the past searching ores or wood and suff generated loads of maps which overloaded server ! Hunting FTW
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what? small scale....pvp, don you see it? Fonline is full of cowards, the only way to make two guys fight is giving BA and Avenger to one guy and left the other alone.
You do got the point here:)
For current economy cooldowns are neccesary. Most of the issues were fixed with cumulative CD, that was great improvement.
I liked that too, but that still remains an invitation for relogging. Don't know if the exact scale of the problem though. Maybe every player should hereby admit, if he's avoiding it this way, no punisment, I promise! :)
Now imagine that there is like 20 of such locations.
What if they are not fixed, but again, findable by mean of encountering, but are quite plentiful in materials (or the amount would vary, you would be noticed of it by the encounter question box). Then you need to stay in that location a bit longer, perhaps call friends (oh no, alt-friends?). And during that time, this location still would not be visible for others, but would be findable (with quite a chance).
The problem I see with fixed locations is that they are not adjusting themselves to the amount of players. Say, we've got low amount of players for some period of time, so it's perfectly safe to go there, don't meet anyone, return with stuff. Or say that some players again organized really humongous alliance, and they control half of it. Sounds a bit like Domination:)
Doh! no searching via encounters it will generate big lags again, as in the past searching ores or wood and suff generated loads of maps which overloaded server ! Hunting FTW
Untrue, it was caused by funny bug in code, maybe some day I will write about it:)
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Currently when you enter a random encounter other players have 10 minutes (I guess) to encounter you and enter your location to kill you.
So if in the new era we need to scavenge a lot if would be good to do the contrary : when you enter a location you have 2 minutes to scavenge and find items and during this time no other player can enter the location.
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Untrue, it was caused by funny bug in code, maybe some day I will write about it:)
I would be happy to see it one day !
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Try a poll, should cooldowns be removed? yes, no.. ect
i dislike cooldowns alot.
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You do got the point here:)
I liked that too, but that still remains an invitation for relogging. Don't know if the exact scale of the problem though. Maybe every player should hereby admit, if he's avoiding it this way, no punisment, I promise! :)
I dont fastre(dual)log because of crafting. Only because of transportation. But when you commit to exploiting this feature fully.... My friend once made many mining alts and via proxies was able to mine more HQ ores in hour than brahmin was able to carry (that means hundreds). But I dont use this way i preffer just visit mine once when i log and unlog or buy it from traders.
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My friend once made many mining alts and via proxies was able to mine more HQ ores in hour than brahmin was able to carry (that means hundreds). But I dont use this way i preffer just visit mine once when i log and unlog or buy it from traders.
But to be precise, I was wondering if people relog because of crafting timeout (to make yet another portion of items), not for gathering.
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Maybe we could try a session with no crafting at all :D
Only scavenging !
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Only scavenging !
Let's make Diablo-style drops. You know - 0,0001 chance to get CA when killing Radscorpion and that stuff ;)
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That would be fun, the stronger creature, the better chance of dropping something valuable
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You do got the point here:)
I liked that too, but that still remains an invitation for relogging.
Eventhough its possible to bypass them in this way, one got to ask if its such an evil. Lets say you have created an item that has 6 minutes non cumulative CD and you want to create two more. What are you gonna do? You dont have time to go out for hunting and if you are not crafting in a base you have to either risk staying next to the workbench or wait on the WM and risk multiple trips. For me thats quite frustrating. If we face the fact that people use specialized crafter builds, that are not quite good at anything else, we also have to face the fact that most of the people wouldnt want to stay in them waiting 5 minutes next to the workbench, click, waiting another 5 minutes and so on. Bypassing seems like lesser evil.
What if they are not fixed but findable by mean of encountering. This location still would not be visible for others, but would be findable..
But who will find such area? Probably some loner that dont even want to like in current system with encounters. In fixed areas, you can go through them and see if there is anyone there. If not, you can either scavange or move on. With encounter based ones, you can spend times looking for someone but have no guarantee that the area you are looking for even exists. The point with risk of encountering someone is valid, but is it realy such a big one? Yes, sometimes it will be less risky to scavange, but thats the same as nowadays with HQ mines and unguarded traders. No big deal.
Or say that some players again organized really humongous alliance, and they control half of it. Sounds a bit like Domination:)
I wouldnt fear that. If there will be huge alliance that controls half of the locations, say 10, it means that its just 1/10 of its strenght per place. If the alliance has 50 people, thats 5 ones per place. And thats just an invitation for another group with 8-10 people to get some free stuff and fine pvp.
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But who will find such area? Probably some loner that dont even want to like in current system with encounters.
For those, there would be always a question/notification.
With encounter based ones, you can spend times looking for someone but have no guarantee that the area you are looking for even exists.
It doesn't have to exist in that place, it might be generated after roll.
The point with risk of encountering someone is valid, but is it realy such a big one?
I'd like to see it a bit bigger for those scavenge encounters.
I wouldnt fear that. If there will be huge alliance that controls half of the locations, say 10, it means that its just 1/10 of its strenght per place. If the alliance has 50 people, thats 5 ones per place. And thats just an invitation for another group with 8-10 people to get some free stuff and fine pvp.
I suppose fixed locations could go on-pair with encounter ones, i do not see them as conflicting.
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Let's make Diablo-style drops. You know - 0,0001 chance to get CA when killing Radscorpion and that stuff ;)
Actually it doesn't sound like a bad idea. That's how it is in most MMOs. It would actually revive PvE from the dead. At this moment, there is no point in killing some creatures at all. Deathclaws give way too little exp for how strong they are. Instead maybe of dropping armors and weapons they could drop HQ/LQ minerals, ores etc. I know it's not realistic but who cares? If it's fun, it doesn't matter.
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Actually it doesn't sound like a bad idea. That's how it is in most MMOs. It would actually revive PvE from the dead. At this moment, there is no point in killing some creatures at all. Deathclaws give way too little exp for how strong they are. Instead maybe of dropping armors and weapons they could drop HQ/LQ minerals, ores etc. I know it's not realistic but who cares? If it's fun, it doesn't matter.
Well, I guess they do not have to drop those items literally, but rather acts like someone who is there just to piss you off and makes your obtaining-that-super-gun task harder.
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[...]Deathclaws give way too little exp for how strong they are. Instead maybe of dropping armors and weapons they could drop HQ/LQ minerals, ores etc.
Well, I guess they do not have to drop those items literally, but rather acts like someone who is there just to piss you off and makes your obtaining-that-super-gun task harder.
Like... regularly infest the HQ mines and other resource gathering places with Deathclaws and Wanamingos = kill tough baddies, get resources?
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Like... regularly infest the HQ mines and other resource gathering places with Deathclaws and Wanamingos = kill tough baddies, get resources?
that would be a great way to stop people from using low level alts for mining purposes.
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If we dont want to face massive stuff (weapons, ammo, armors, drugs,..) inflation, system has to have somewhere its own bottleneck (hope i used correct phraze).
Cooldown is kind of one bottleneck, simple to integrate but i dont like it.
Why not try different aproach.
Level 0 resources (on any form: minerals, prefabricates, even quite damaged weapons from encounters) would be used to ger Lvl 1 resources.
Lvl 1 res (better equipment, similar to tier 1 weapons and armors) would be used to ger lvl 2 res.
Lvl 2 res .... to get lvl 3 res..
How? Imagine situation, that you have encounter (or even some solid location on world map..) where lvl 1 res. would exist. To get those res., you would need to spend, INVEST only lvl. 0 stuff (form lvl. 0 res).
Example: location.. abadoned mine full of wanamingo (or something else, ..). You would have to use lvl 0 weapons (shotguns with knockback perks, knockback melee weapons), because wanamingo are very though and you would need to spend 1000 lvl 3 ammo from avenger to kill them. But with good knockback weapons, you would only pass thru them, with good organization and luck of course. After you will bypass them, you would be able to get (mine, find, craft) lvl. 1 resources (weapons), that you would need to get lvl 2 res...
Of course, that those lvl 0, 1, 2 ... stuff would not have only this one purpose. It would be availbe to PvE, PvP, trade ... but you would have to get lower level stuff to obtain higher level.
Other idea: team (not only faction based) scavenging (it is multi players, you can find frined in NCR,...)
Hunting idea: every critter you attack is attacking you too.. I can imagine some rare critters, that if you kill them, they would have valuable resource (skin to armor, ...). But their attributes would be set that they would run away from you, if they see you. So you would have to locate them (by shit on ground), get to them from the side they dont look, then cripple them (or encircle them) and finaly, kill them and loot some resource from them.. It would need cooperation with players and it would provide very different gameplay than stay and push the fire button.
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So you would have to locate them (by shit on ground), get to them from the side they dont look, then cripple them (or encircle them) and finaly, kill them and loot some resource from them.. It would need cooperation with players and it would provide very different gameplay than stay and push the fire button.
Please... Players don't want to have pain in ass... We got enough of them by having stupid cooldowns.
That way you just would bore the player to death and make gameplay more real but more hard for players
(especially those lonely).
We do not want craft the stuff because the materials for them are hard to get due to cooldowns and craft brings small income in exp and caps (imagine making MFCs or rockets...). Instead of that players would get the special place on map which will manufacture for them ammo and weapons (some factories) or dungeons like Army Depots (SAD for example or Glow). These would be more funny and not that hard to get by groups - lonely players instead of that would just make SIMPLE tier for them (tier 2 guns, armors max) in normal mines etc.
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Hmm, to find junk you look for a ruin location on the WM, right? You go there, and sometimes you meet someone. What if the WM will have more locations like this for example some really rock-ish tile(s) and on entering filled with ores to dig. If there would be a lot of locations like theese, it enable lonely players to mine without getting their asses shot off provided they are lucky enough not to choose the location filled with minigun campers. Theese locations have to be plenty all around the WM for it work. And, here's a bonus: Those locations with ores to gather will have both normal and HQ minerals. But to get the HQ minerals you'll have to use better equipement. If its all based on %; for example primitive tool will have 75% for normal stuff gain, sledge would provide 95% for normal but only 40% for HQ but then- a super sledge would give you 80% chance to get HQ materials. As for the cooldowns- scrap'em. The only restriction for players will be their weight limitation. Ofcourse some grinders will swarm a mine with mercs for protection and enough cows to get loads of the stuff out, but theres a chance that some other group comes in. Then again, why not make the brahmin carry weight for minerals smaller?
I also like the food idea. It could be used if a player gets overburdened by the things he carries. After eating something he will be able to run for some time, but there will be a cooldown between one meal and another to prevent carrying tons of ammo and weapons into a fight. Im watching this thread and I feel that you guys are forgetting one thing: This is a wasteland- after the war there are tons of resources just lying around waiting to be found. The solution form a few era's back with random resources was the one i liked the best. But then was the cooldowns that ruined almost every thing about it.
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Deathclaws and mutants with 99999hp to stop getting HQ !
But truly the One guy here said that give deathclaws and aliens get killed to be able to harvest HQ, would be hard for loners and kinda easy for gangs
BUT it can be " fixed " via amount of players entering the place. More players = more enemies or even stronger enemis to kill so maybe loners would solo em even but would still be hard !
My say:
Way to reduce cooldown is better than removing it or just give a crackhead which will fit :P
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1) minerals, metals.. this is not Fallout (F1,F2, FTac., ..). Only mines in original Fallout universe were uranium (BH) and gold (Redding). So replace those resources with something more postapocalyptic (junk in cities, el. parts, parts from cars, broken weapons thath could be founded in some stores,...).
So scavenge yes (fallout), mininig no (ultima online).
2) "The path is the destination!" phylosophy. Lets make scavenging (or mining, if you are addict to hammer) more entertaining, and people would like this part of the game, instead of thinking about bypassing it.
In my previous post i suggest that players abilities should supercede characters statistics.
Short story: Group of 3 players: Lordus, Sarakin and Bantz entered "abandoned mine" (you can use current mine maps). They know, that there is not any resource left, but mining machines contains of some important parts that could be used in laser weaponry. They have first to repair elevator.. (but they need some parts => INVESTITION of lvl 0 stuff), then they moved to underground level. Then they meet group of wanamingos. They are very though, but very vulnerable to knockback weapons. Lordus and Saraking use their shotguns, to knock them back, Bantz is last defence with his knockback perked hammer. They did not kill any beast, but they succesfully run through the mine tunnels to the doors with mining equipment. Their weapons are out of ammo, and they dont have many AP left, but with last Banz knockback attack, they throw wanamingo back from the doors, Bantz close the doors and Sarakin use his lockpick skill to temporary lockpicking the doors, so they are safe now. They heal their wound and prepare for deeper undeground level, because they know, that more deeper, better and more of mining equipment is there.."
This is the way, how scavenging should be implemented. NOT Better hammer => more ore, not 90 percent in one skill, 90 ores mined..
If this could be placed in some hierarchy: lvl 0 stuff (shot gun, knockback shotgun shells, lockpick tools, rope, ..) needed for lvl 1 stuff ...., you dont have to afraid of huge amount of high tier weapons, because even group with tier max stuff would fail to get tier 2 or tier 3 stuff, because tier max stuff is good only to PvP, not for harvesting. So players (factions) would have to invest time to other than max tier stuff.
Players could barter with their different tier stuff if someone need something, players would need cooperate with another to succeed...
OR current way : hammer and rock = ore. ore and workbench = weapon.. :(
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Sorry, I didn't want to be rude but now....
Short story: Group of 3 players: Lordus, Sarakin and Bantz entered "abandoned mine" (you can use current mine maps). They know, that there is not any resource left, but mining machines contains of some important parts that could be used in laser weaponry. They have first to repair elevator.. (but they need some parts => INVESTITION of lvl 0 stuff), then they moved to underground level. Then they meet group of wanamingos. They are very though, but very vulnerable to knockback weapons. Lordus and Saraking use their shotguns, to knock them back, Bantz is last defence with his knockback perked hammer. They did not kill any beast, but they succesfully run through the mine tunnels to the doors with mining equipment. Their weapons are out of ammo, and they dont have many AP left, but with last Banz knockback attack, they throw wanamingo back from the doors, Bantz close the doors and Sarakin use his lockpick skill to temporary lockpicking the doors, so they are safe now. They heal their wound and prepare for deeper undeground level, because they know, that more deeper, better and more of mining equipment is there.."
This idea you tell by 3 posts and we still do not want it.
It is FACTION MOD and its not more fallot, based NOT on the quests and the universe but only on "lulz and fight".
More fun is when we get the stuff and fight each other than fight with some monsters to get weapons...
The way that is now is good but cooldowns need to be fixed somehow.
And to your idea... You know how it would look NOT in the theory? It will look like this" Group of players enter abadoned 'ruins', they encountered wanamigos, which rushed them to cripple thier eyes/hands/ and group of players are overwhelmed by them and die in horrible way, trying to get some materials for one laser rifle".
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Tomowolf.. i dont want to be personal, but who is: "We dont want it.."? You are the community?
I played since beggining of fonline at least some part of every era, and every era i found players (in my faction, in other faction, no faction), that liked to PvE for stuff in different ways..
Brahmin hunters, speleology (examine caves for items, fight with cave beasts..), hunting enclave for stuff, ... . They did it alone or together.
In second (or third era), when nothing happends, we used to say this sentence every day. "Lets hunt caravans". Few of our VSB players went into one mumble channel to track and kill caravns for stuff. Together, not to kill other players, but to ejoy some challegne. Even WoW (i did not played it for a second and i am proud of it) has its own PvE and PvP.
On Requiem server (try it). you can play Cathedrall. call via radio stuff support from enclave or brotherhood, wait 15 minutes, than hostile NPC from that faction arrive (you have to kill them, via guns, mines, ...)., than car with stuff arived. You know, it is about the PATH, not the destination.
I will be personal.. you dislike this idea so you think it would not work.. But this is not the final idea, this is concept that in some small form exist past eras (Caravans, Caves), or it exists on other fonline servers and it works.
Dont tell me, that for you is satisfiing to use hammer on rock, than iron on work bench and finito. THE PATH IS THE DESTINATION BRO. :P
And if you want free stuff, go to Hinkley. THere is a lot of fun.
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I liked your idea Lordus. But i just cant believe there wont be any abusers that will ruin your idea. If i would want some stuff, id get some of my friends and wait and the entrance to that cave. When someone comes out of there- bam. The stuff is mine, no one's hurt. And this is just my idea of how to fuck players up. There are gonna be tons of them. Besides what about players that are playing fonline for the first time? They dont have any friends, and wont(if they are smart) rely on others to lead them into those locations and trust them enough) its a bit to harsh, even for the wasteland..
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Grid camping can be solved by adding more than one grids and random entering spawns.
I played since beggining of fonline at least some part of every era
You remind me Mysterious Stranger - known from stories, barely seen anywhere.
Scavenging locations don't have to be filled with hi-level creatures like aliens or floaters. Toxic Caves are one of my favourite places - few geckos than can be killed by any weapon (even a spear), chemical components to gather, fine enough to travel there from time to time. Moar like this could be fun.
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Hmm, to find junk you look for a ruin location on the WM, right? You go there, and sometimes you meet someone. What if the WM will have more locations like this for example some really rock-ish tile(s) and on entering filled with ores to dig. If there would be a lot of locations like theese, it enable lonely players to mine without getting their asses shot off provided they are lucky enough not to choose the location filled with minigun campers. Theese locations have to be plenty all around the WM for it work. And, here's a bonus: Those locations with ores to gather will have both normal and HQ minerals. But to get the HQ minerals you'll have to use better equipement. If its all based on %; for example primitive tool will have 75% for normal stuff gain, sledge would provide 95% for normal but only 40% for HQ but then- a super sledge would give you 80% chance to get HQ materials. As for the cooldowns- scrap'em. The only restriction for players will be their weight limitation. Ofcourse some grinders will swarm a mine with mercs for protection and enough cows to get loads of the stuff out, but theres a chance that some other group comes in. Then again, why not make the brahmin carry weight for minerals smaller?
That was like that at the beginning. We were be able to find ores in random locations of the worldmap but it has been changed because it didn't work (ores too easy to find and to gather a lot).
But I agree with Lordus about one thing : scavenge is fallout style but mining and crafting is ultima style.
In a post-apocalyptic world what we like is to scavenge and repair the stuff we find. So we can use that stuff to kill people, raid towns or build a community of gentlemen to defend against raiders...
In my opinion the game is currently about "lulz and fight" and it just need to be "lulz and fight for everybody". I think we all agree with that.
This is not currently a "Faction Mod" but this is a "Big Faction Mod". So we a larger amount of areas to control small factions will be able to have fun as the biggest factions have. If a big alliance can control many areas at the same time they can't control ALL these areas so small factions can control other areas and have fun.
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So crafting need resources, skill and tools.
Crafting timeout is not so bad, I mean the "1 hour limit".
We have now different way to get resources, I thinks they are all good.
In the past we got also some good things like barrels with amount of junk in cities and when empty we have to wait the next "refuel" of junk. We also got encounter with mineral/ore, I think that mine location is better but mine is sometimes to far away .. where these encounter was almost everywhere.
We also had another things in gathering, when we got a lot of science we found more electronics parts or minerals/ore, when we got a lot of outdoorsman we found more fruits/fibers, it was not so bad but we can thinking about gathering in a different way.
Instead of getting more resources with our skill, we will accumulate less time in our cooldown depend of our special. Example : A guy with 10 intelligence accumulate less time than a guy with 1 intelligence to gathering electronics parts. It's don't help with this (i think) useless gathering cooldown but give some fluctuation into the game, and i love when all isn't fixed. (And you will be able to say "the game is not boring you only have wrong stats to collect flint" .. gnehehe)
It's like the "1 hour" cooldown of crafting which can be varied by the number of profession (or the max profession level) like 40-50 minutes max for no profession and we gain 10 minutes each profession(or level of profession). I change almost nothing in the game but it give me the opportunity to ask Why do you remove information about professions in the character window (above perk/trait list) ? :(
About boring cooldown and fixed things why don't change repair cooldown like first aid cooldown ? (i mean change with skill) :(
Going back about gathering resource, I love found them in base, in encounter(ground/corps), in town. Maybe add junk as before in town and some base? Add minerals/ore as before in some (specials?) encounters?
And why not add dialog to some pnj to exchange caps against specific resource, like we pay for uranium at broken hills. And why not get back money against resource, can be nice especially for guys who like to kill people who collect resources, yeah we have to thinks about every people of the community.
The trapper guy in base who go hunt or something else for us was a nice idea but don't know if he still want sometimes kill us or try to make a revolution with our mercs ^^
An another i would to see is found some random things in encounters, why always a dead tribals with 1 stimpack when encounter raiders? why always a dead guys wearing armor with an antidote when encounter geckos?
Adding with that more possibility to slave? We just have to order him to "Go hunt" and after some times he .. damn he never come back! Grr
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I thought about it just a minute ago:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg35593#msg35593
Now lets assume that there are regions with some cars or other trash. Using repair on a car would yeld us a pipe which could be used as a barrel for the gun. The rest could be simillary found, even in the same location. Why not simply find the stuff? Digging the materials for the weapons would be obolete. The ammo could be a problem.
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..Toxic Caves are one of my favourite places - few geckos than can be killed by any weapon (even a spear)..
I though you say better even unarmed.. Just 2 or 3 hits to eyes and boom Golden Gecko owned.
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I understand that people have fun fighting each other to gain items and i like it too.
But we gotta have a rebound for the people who rather like to explore (alone or with buddys) all those forgotten and forsaken places to gather materials and maybe some "treasure" not only using weapons but also non-combat skills and items i.e. lockpicking/repair/speech/science (lockpick-tools/tools etc) to aquire items, than to fight with other players.
I would love such things like Lordus idea in the game, maybe not explicit for gathering but for general PvE activities.
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please, no cooldowns.. Cooldown is something that does not belong into developed game project. I understand it, that in first eras, there was something needed to limit stuff inflation, but there are many other ways, how to eliminate stuff inflation. The way i suggested is good IMO. Tier 0 stuff = no limit. Other tiers = need of investment of tier -1 stuff. So in fact, cooldowns are replaced by time you need to get minor tier stuff. But in entertaining way.
I just dont understand players, why are they so obsesed with cooldowns like now. Different are developers, they have to spend their own time, so i understand when they implements cooldown as an easiest solution.
But current game parts and mechanics allows to create better ways. Maps for dungeons are done. Just replace purpose of boring mines: hostile beasts, enviroment,... that would need unique stuff to kill or disarm them. Guns are here too, perks too, only imagination and minor scripting is needed.
Another examples of mines with wanamingos with their knockback vulnerability?
Spore plants in outside mines (maps are already done) .. you need flamethrowers (tier 1 stuff that you can get in mines) and good antidote (tier 0 stuff, but need to kill scorpions), because sporeplants poison should be lethal.
Or mines with very fast reswapning group of rats (10).. respawn time = 5 seconds => you have to make collateral damage (nades, RL), to eliminate them, then run. Or they will encircle you and you would be traped until death..
Dog shepherd with 8 dogs.. 1) Kill all dogs and shepherd, or 2) kill shepherd and dogs will run away..
Fire geckons in close range location = threat even for lvl 21 psycho powerbuild with combat armor..
.....
There are plenty of ways how to make every mining/scavenging place (or PvE) more chalenging, more uniqe than current way (do 5 quests, that use RL to kill centaurs until lvl 21). Look at glow.. you need to prepare yourself (anti rad drugs) if you dont want to die there, than use your non combat skills and finaly, brain, or you are trapped there and you die there.
Why there every beast have to be killable? More entertaining would be, if there would be way how to disarm it, but still, it would be dangerous critter.
(i.e.: snipe spore plants poison vac..)
Talking about 5 sec., 5 minutes, whatever cooldowns as major game mechanism is... obsolete.
Why in year 2011 the game from 1998 has to be same, even during game developement years, most mechanics are overcome. (Spore plant = plant --> no way how to eliminate plant with pistol.. but with flame, yes.. lets set up basic dmg resistance to 95 percent, flame to 0 percent and you have unique enemy with unique way how to kill it.. unique gameplay). Seriously, i dont think that ability that you can kill every beast with every weapon is the original Fallout spirit. I know that my post is not only anout gathering stuff, but i think that scavenging(mining) should be more unique and entertaining, not currently pain in the ass..
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i liked the CD that the game had 2 wipes ago, I think the CD was better to trade between players
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People suggesting skills & stats reducing cooldowns must keep in mind it will only lead to minmaxed alts.
please, no cooldowns
I liked for example the way to get rid of spore plants with flamer. But remember, small gunners can't use flamers and the game shouldn't encourage making sporeplant killer-alts like that.
About those killable critters guarding materials: it's good idea that we'd have to fight for the mats and there's a risk and reward. However the risk and challenge should be varying and even random and so should the reward. I bet everyone just hates those ants in bh and the alien in redding mine.
"Oh not again this alien, i've killed it 258 times already"
Still I think fixed locations for mats would be funniest. I remember when players made caravan cart encounters all over the world in material locations. All players could see them and used those material sources. Sometimes you met players there and had interaction. And because they mainly came gathering they weren't armed to teeth, maybe had some low tier for quick self defense. It was no sense to camp those areas because they were so many, but player contact still happened and it was cool. Funniest thing was that the whole system was an accident, not planned feature.
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Lol those guys are losing brain mass in more and more imaginative stuff.
I became bored after 3 pages so here is my point about people playing alone:
--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day
Lone players play the game from day to day, as example my typycally day in Fonline includes craft plsma or laser pistols and ammo for the desired day.
So if you are making a system to create stuff more slower, but without cooldown you will fuck up all the lone players (and alt users) in the game.
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Its a MMO, loners should stop playing singleplayer and find a decent group/gang.
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--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day
Not true, I know many powergaming solo players who have ridiculous ammounts of stuff. Last wipe I was playing solo and had my base full of top tier stuff. But I was super careful and avoided other players like they were infected.
So if you are making a system to create stuff more slower, but without cooldown you will fuck up all the lone players (and alt users) in the game.
However I agree here, everyone should have a chance to get good and effective gear relatively easily and go use it without having to worry too much. If stuff is hugely rare it results in zealous hoarding and makes lots of players simply hunker in their bunkers and never show their face to the public.
Its a MMO, loners should stop playing singleplayer and find a decent group/gang.
Yes but even if someone is playing solo it doesn't mean he doesn't meet other players and interact with them. Solo players just lose items easier than gang players because there's nobody to secure their stuff. In addition they get stuff slower than gang players, so they just interact less because they spend more time in getting the items. If getting items was easier, solo players might show their face more often.
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Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?
Anyway, randomness is the way. Once, it can be easy, other time, it can get really hard, what it does mean is that you cant prepare for it and moreover, it wont get so boring that fast.
Last, but not least is variability. Every player can choose his way to obtain resources, be it through scavenging, fighting or mining.
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Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?
Because like I said: solo doesn't mean singleplayer. Interacting soloists contribute to the server.
Since there is no goal, you can't say something is hard. Some players enjoy standing in ncr and being poor.
Certain players will play solo no matter what and most players will start the game that way. It's good because they learn the strings by themselves and learn to be self-sufficient, like real wastelanders.
If items are easier or funnier to get, soloists are simply seen interacting more. If items are hard to get, soloists will stay solo but will not emerge to interact.
Anyway, randomness is the way. Once, it can be easy, other time, it can get really hard, what it does mean is that you cant prepare for it and moreover, it wont get so boring that fast.
Last, but not least is variability. Every player can choose his way to obtain resources, be it through scavenging, fighting or mining.
Here I can fully agree.
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If items are easier or funnier to get, soloists are simply seen interacting more. If items are hard to get, soloists will stay solo but will not emerge to interact.
i takes me everyday 8min to make a LaserPistol and 50 SEC, also it takes me around 25min to make Plasma Pistols (movilizing many alts of course), so the actual sistem is nice to me, i always visit NCR for troll, or go fight at Hinkley, or hunt random guys trough the whole wasteland, i interact a lot with other players and not only by killing them. And im soloist
Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?
1.-It makes you feel something in your heart when you kill groups of players with a simple laser pistol.
2.- Im in a gang but i almost always be alone in the desert, i take resources from my gang base, but really too little.
Not true, I know many powergaming solo players who have ridiculous ammounts of stuff. Last wipe I was playing solo and had my base full of top tier stuff. But I was super careful and avoided other players like they were infected.
That's the point. I never have fear of lose my stuff, so i always fight even if im going to lose, that's what this game needs: people that dont cares about lose items and dont cry about get killed. We need a game full of fighters not of pussy cowards
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But to be precise, I was wondering if people relog because of crafting timeout (to make yet another portion of items), not for gathering.
Hammer Time by me
Part 1, HQ stuff:
- go to tent near VC, left anything except jacket and hammer there, go to Gecko mine, dig, run, log out, wait 3 minutes, log into medic alt living in this tent, grab hammer, go to Gecko mine, dig, run, wait. Loop.
Part 2, LQ stuff:
- log into miner alt #1, go to NCR mine (I have base quite close), dig, go back, unload, log out, wait, log into miner alt #2, dig, go, unload, log out, wait, repeat process for alts #3 and #4. Loop.
Part 3, crafting:
- log into main character, craft fancy clothes. Log out, wait 3 minutes, log into miner alt #whatever, he has Armorer profession level 1st, craft fancy clothes. Loop till running out of hides and skins.
- log into BG/SG crafting alt, craft fancy bullets. Log out, wait, log into SEC crafting alt, craft as hell, log out. Log into Energy Expert alt, craft, log out. I wish to perform all these actions on main character, not "toilet-like" characters - use, flush, forget.
And so the story goes. I had a screenshot somewhere, from making a miners tent near some mine. 5 miner alts and "main" character to grab what they digged.
Since crafting cooldowns were cut down, I have so much precioussss itanz I can use, that I started to afraid death of my character rather than losing items carried on him. It's not a bad way to go I guess.
--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day
Lone players play the game from day to day, as example my typycally day in Fonline includes craft plsma or laser pistols and ammo for the desired day.
How many loners, except yourself, do you know?
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That's the point. I never have fear of lose my stuff, so i always fight even if im going to lose, that's what this game needs: people that dont cares about lose items and dont cry about get killed. We need a game full of fighters not of pussy cowards
But the problem is: the only way soloist can get lots of gear is either cheating or being super careful. I don't think soloists suddenly change their mood to: "hehe I lost all the gear I worked my ass off for hours for the 5th time in row but least we had fun, I guess".
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I use relog to circumvent the gathering timer, and only to mine HQ iron ores. Crafting timers are okay for me, but it's just more efficient to relog to another char to get more HQ ore.
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I think that there should be, as someone previously suggested, many small and specialized locations on map. Like having ore mines, mineral quarries, HQ ore mine, HQ mineral quarry a ways outside each town that would be likely to support them(ie located in mountains/rocky terrain). While other non-infinite resources would be best left to the encounter scenario to encourage roaming the wastes. Most recipes, excluding bullets, use a combination of both mined and gathered materials and would require the player to obtain both.
On the topic of alting, I noticed a majority of the people do alt but personally I have never felt the need to. Perhaps this is because I, being the older brother, made my and my brothers character. I designed my character to be a small guns user and crafter while my brother's build is more of a tank capable of using small guns but also able to fend for himself in the wastes. This has worked out nicely as I craft and mine with slave *cracks whip* while requesting, with varying levels of success, that Ben look for a particular resource in his encounters. We are the same level and have played the same amount of time because while he may gain more combat experience in his searches, I have the crafting experience to supplement the experience I earn on slave runs. I don't need alts to make stuff from other professions because I have gotten a few of my friends to play and take various professions and the rest I can buy/trade with the few nice people I have run into.
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AAVV: "But remember, small gunners can't use flamers and the game shouldn't encourage making sporeplant killer-alts like that."
Look at this problem from other side. Does have the game adapt to every individual player's character, or do the player's chars adapt to game?
In your example of smallgunner that he is not able to kill sporeplants... he have the choice: he can invest some skill points to BG skill (even little, because flame thrower dont need high skill) and then he would be able to mine (scanvege there). He needs to adopt to the game mechanism, not oposite.
The consequence of this, is minimize of mininng (scavenging) alts. How? If you want to mine (scavenge) res (items) in every locations, you have to first create alt with enough skill points in needed skills. If i.e. one resource place needs small guns, lockpick, other big guns, doctor (to heal sporeplants poison wounds..), you are not able to create dozens of mining alts only by simple registration, you would need to level each one char to adequate level (because even more HP are needed for higher tiier mining/scavenging).
Numerical cooldown should be replaced by "gameplay cooldown".
This time equal to level up your mining char = kind of cooldown time, single investition, also (in my view of path is the destination) portion of fun.
Well known current cooldowns could be eliminated and replaced by "fake cooldowns", by time you need to get adequate stuff, time needed to move to res (scav.) location, time to get thru "dungeon", time to mine (find) res. (stuff) and time to leave back to base (city). Because there should be still some threat (respawning beasts you kill, lower ammo,...), you would be limited in some way of mining.
But i agree, that as a player, you should have more choices than one. So even you would not create special mining or scavenging alt (and please, there are a lot of people, in factions maybe majority, that think that creating, balancing and using special purpose alts for special situations is very popular part of fonline .. for the PvP, for PVE .. so this alternative is not necessary evil, as many of you thinks), you can create and balance your single alt that he would be able to get stuff he would need. Dont tell me, that your small gun char needs acces to locations with res. or parts. needed to craft energy weapons.. why?
And even if you dont want to invest points to all needed mining (scavenging) skills, you can invest to one and barter with other players (or join factions). And even if you dont want to barter with players, you can barter with NPCs.. Or you can PK... Or you can beg for stuff...
So there is a lot of possibilities, depends on you which choice you choose (harder, easier). I disagree with idea, that solitaire players should have same game difficulty than multiplayers. This is multiplayer game, and as in real world ... just read The Wealth of Nations from Adam Smith. If you choose solitaire gameplay, you have so specialize and barter with others.
RANDOMNES: Yes!, But! .. i think that devs forget their roles of game mechanics scripters, directors and let everything on dozen of years old game mechanism. Critters have HP and damage, players have HP and damage, who have more wins. This game has much more potential in scripting of some situations that could bring more entertatinig gameplay.
I.e.: mining place full of ants, constantly respawning, so even with zilion ammo you cannot kill them all and mine (scav.) some resource. So what to do? Use flares, put them on ground and set up light borders, because ants are afraid of lights and until flares are burning, you are safe...
So yes, randomnes.. i.e. in conditions, when flares would be burned (1-3 minutes), randomnes in paths or obstacles in tunnels (sometimes you would need to use dynamite,..), but not randomnes in the way, that easiest way to mine is avenger build with a lot of ammo to kill all kind of critters (because does not matter what kind of critter is randomly spawned (from rat to floater), you can everything killed by most powerfull weapons).
Well, dont tell me, that you dont like this and you want rather counting until 5 minutes cooldown is done. :/
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Look at this problem from other side. Does have the game adapt to every individual player's character, or do the player's chars adapt to game?
In my opinion every char should have default abilities to fulfill it's basic requirements. Getting stuff is one of them. I personally don't like relogging and switching characters to do every task because it depletes the role play aspect and waiting for relog isn't fun.
In addition it doesn't hurt the gameplay if one char can do the same things as 10 alts. What's the difference? The players get access to those activities anyway with the alts, so why make him waste time levelling a char and relogging?
Instead of changing character, the char could just change gear like you described with the flares and dynamite. It shouldn't require a special alt to use either. This way all materials are possible to reach with all characters if you got the required gear.
Need to repair something - bring super tool kit instead of your repair-alt
Need to lockpick a door - bring extended lockpick instead of lockpick alt
The whole system where char does something better because of invested skillpoints works only in singleplayer because you can't bring your alts in that world. In singleplayer you make real tradeoffs.
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--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
You would be surprised with bases of some solo players I had seen when I was a GM ;D
Of course many of them double logged and so on, but it's not like gangs don't cheat.
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But the problem is: the only way soloist can get lots of gear is either cheating or being super careful. I don't think soloists suddenly change their mood to: "hehe I lost all the gear I worked my ass off for hours for the 5th time in row but least we had fun, I guess".
It my first game in the present era, (being sincerously i only play like 3 times in the first era) i get killed multiple times by a PK called 28DaysAfter, i dont get mad, i actually admire the guy, "if he can do it, i can too".
So soloist must think something like "yes he kill me, i learn from my errors and i kill him next time"
One stupid patriot said sometime: "Dont get mad, Get even"
(also isnt hard to get armor and guns, with the apropiate build everything can be a murder tool, this is my think: if low stuff is really easy to get then people will not care of lose it, and we all have small scale PvP....maybe)
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The mining cooldown reduction is definitely appreciated, it has made getting the parts for crafting quicker. Every crafter I have ran into noticed within their first craft. Being able to mine all the stuff needed for a gun is great because it means I mine all the ores/minerals I need for a gun in one go and not have to risk a pker walking into mine while I am waiting for cooldown.
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I was in gecko today and the gathering for HQ minerals was less than a min is prewipe madness ?
Now everyone must only wait one calm moment to get 30 Hq mineral or HQ iron ore , a little bit too easy?
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I could see myself gathering a few spare ores/minerals above what I need to craft but I don't think anyone but big factions will really be hauling in huge loads. I also suspect that the market for HQ materials is going to decrease as the ease of gathering enough for your projects has increased. So in short, the crafters will craft easier, mining alts will drop, and big factions will still bring in big loads to support their operations. Quoting the cereal professor from Stephen King's Cujo, "nothing wrong here."
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In a 90 minuts I gathered enough maths for craft 4 ba ... And I am a loner (I have a friend but rarely we play at the same time ), obviously to be efficient I used a mule alt...
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Effectively the value of crafted guns have been divided by 4 (Assult Rifle worth 1600 caps are now worth 400) :o
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Getting BAs is now faster but what the smaller cooldowns made me (and some of my pals) to do was relog after the previous chars cd was full. With the earlier cooldowns mining was too slow even for that but now it's actually worthwhile.
I'm not complaining, we can play the rest of the wipe like this. It will nicely tone down the wealth difference between old and new players.
The cooldown change just proves the fact that players like to concentrate on one thing for a while, get things finished on that area and then do something else. So gathering should work so that a player can do it as long as he wants without having to wait for restricting cooldowns. When he thinks he has gathered enough, he can do something else. Only limit to the gathering speed would be the player's personal abilities to get over challenges.
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So gathering should work so that a player can do it as long as he wants without having to wait for restricting cooldowns. When he thinks he has gathered enough, he can do something else. Only limit to the gathering speed would be the player's personal abilities to get over challenges.
This is the direction we need to acquire, sooner the better. Personally, I do not fear destabilizing the economy by just scrapping gathering timeouts without providing enough challenge (as we know, this takes time to implement, more than 'abstract' cooldown timer) - we could just add it gradually, basing on testing experience and iterate it (once again:) )
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This is awesome no more pain in the ass and crafting really seems rewarding now , i would like to see this system to be implemented permanently because i have this feeling that it is because of wipe madness or devs just wanna test ?!?!
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This is awesome no more pain in the ass and crafting really seems rewarding now , i would like to see this system to be implemented permanently because i have this feeling that it is because of wipe madness or devs just wanna test ?!?!
We decided pre-pre-wipe madness should be focused on some tweaks to test. In fact, such tweaks could be more common all the time, but let's say now is not a bad time to do this.
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I must say that current situation with cooldowns is just PERFECT!
Yes, gathering still take some time, but not WHOLE day = fun
Yes, crafting still take some time, but again, not WHOLE day = fun
Yes, mining is still dangerous(i was tried to dig something at Gecko mines and i was killed three times before i dog something:D) but at the end, frustration from waiting is gone. Just take friends and go diging, how simple and funny way to obtain resources.
So again, current cooldowns are good as they are, and now i feel fun from game as not in last 1 year 8)
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Now what, you are actually stopping me from changes that could remove them totally ;) ?
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We decided pre-pre-wipe madness should be focused on some tweaks to test. In fact, such tweaks could be more common all the time, but let's say now is not a bad time to do this.
Wipe is now sooner than soon :D :D :)
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Now what, you are actually stopping me from changes that could remove them totally ;) ?
Nope. I just wanted to let you know that last change about cooldowns was really good move. Nothing more, nothing less. No offense, it was good job
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Lower cooldowns are cool but I think you shoud reduce price of materials a bit. Now you can mine ore worth 20 000 caps every hour with a single character.
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Lower cooldowns are cool but I think you shoud reduce price of materials a bit. Now you can mine ore worth 20 000 caps every hour with a single character.
But what's the value of the caps anyway...especially in recession haunted world...
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Scypior aren't you afraid that trading will not have any value now that cooldowns for mining are lowered ?
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Scypior aren't you afraid that trading will not have any value now that cooldowns for mining are lowered ?
Well, with cooldowns lowered, the solution would be just to recalculate it now (as stated already, it's not done in those prewipe tweaks).
With other solutions (no-cooldown), of course it would have an impact and we would have to make traders so that they would not have insane amount of caps available just to trade for crap item or easily-obtainable resources.
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trading will not have any value now that cooldowns for mining are lowered ?
Why so? I know many people hate crafting, digging, gathering, you know, all the "settlers" job. Still, I know few crazy dudes, who can roleplay such settlers and provide mates with stuff - why not let them? This could lead to real economy:
- dude A is pr0 PvP ape, he could mine, craft, etc. himself with crafting alts and proxies, but
- dude B is pr0 settlers, he never leaves his cave without a hammer, so
- dude B wanders around mining, gathering, fighting scorpions, crafting fancy clothes and guns he won't use anyway, so he sells them to
- dude A, who is happy to have awzum itanz nao! so he can pwn n00bz instead of boring rides to mine and back, with proxy alts.
Profit.
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Why so? I know many people hate crafting, digging, gathering, you know, all the "settlers" job. Still, I know few crazy dudes, who can roleplay such settlers and provide mates with stuff - why not let them? This could lead to real economy:
- dude A is pr0 PvP ape, he could mine, craft, etc. himself with crafting alts and proxies, but
- dude B is pr0 settlers, he never leaves his cave without a hammer, so
- dude B wanders around mining, gathering, fighting scorpions, crafting fancy clothes and guns he won't use anyway, so he sells them to
- dude A, who is happy to have awzum itanz nao! so he can pwn n00bz instead of boring rides to mine and back, with proxy alts.
Profit.
I wish that was how it played out. In my experience as a crafter, Dude A shows up at either mine or crafting table and kills/steals what he needs. In payment he leaves a snide comment.
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In my opinion if people have the choice they will craft instead of trade.
This is a Faction Mod so most of players have to be efficient to be helpful in the team. If mining/crafting is more efficient than trading so people will prefer mining/crafting.
Well, with cooldowns lowered, the solution would be just to recalculate it now (as stated already, it's not done in those prewipe tweaks).
Have you ever think about non craftable tier3 stuff (only obtainable with killing PC/NPC or by trading) ?
With other solutions (no-cooldown), of course it would have an impact and we would have to make traders so that they would not have insane amount of caps available just to trade for crap item or easily-obtainable resources.
Well... this is what a post-apocalyptic world looks like ;) (barter instead of money)
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In my opinion if people have the choice they will craft instead of trade.
This is a Faction Mod so most of players have to be efficient to be helpful in the team.
Even if it was Loner Mod, they would want to be efficient. And every simple solution to that matter will lead only to alting. Unless there is some brilliant idea, I do not have one yet:)
Have you ever think about non craftable tier3 stuff (only obtainable with killing PC/NPC or by trading) ?
There are some upcoming changes for that + higher tier stuff was always meant to be connected with factions scenarios or other end-game activities, which are not there yet, unfortunately:(
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Without any sensible way of trade. Which is not present everyone will just hoard stuff the way which is most time efficient. Weather it is stealer and trader alt ol zillion of miner crafter proxies. But the point is taht every person will have to be able to make all the stuff without player trade.
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Without any sensible way of trade.
What do you mean with "sensible" ?
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I think it was already linked in this thread but still:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17827.msg147325
We need something like pip-boy in-build trading system so everyone can publish his offers there and browse offers of the others. Just like on the forums except that in-game. Majority of players isn't even interested in forums besides in-game system would be much more comfortable and accessible to everyone.
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What do you mean with "sensible" ?
Some way of offline trading so you dont have to actually meet ingame. Like in all other MMOs with auction or market feature.
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Some way of offline trading so you dont have to actually meet ingame. Like in all other MMOs with auction or market feature.
Personally i've always hated those auction/market features. Trying to find a buyer is half of the fun of trading (which is even harder for me with my gmt+12).
However I wouldn't object to an auction/market feature in which you have to speak to an npc and pay a percentage of your sale to them. In doing so, it allows those wishing to get rid of there items efficiently to use the auction/market feature, but also allows those wishing to make the effort in finding a buyer sell their items effectively (by not having to lose a percentage of their sales to the auction/market npc).
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Personally i've always hated those auction/market features. Trying to find a buyer is half of the fun of trading (which is even harder for me with my gmt+12).
However I wouldn't object to an auction/market feature in which you have to speak to an npc and pay a percentage of your sale to them. In doing so, it allows those wishing to get rid of there items efficiently to use the auction/market feature, but also allows those wishing to make the effort in finding a buyer sell their items effectively (by not having to lose a percentage of their sales to the auction/market npc).
Well you hate it and you wouldn't mind it, kinda contradiction.
Anyway there's like 5% cut in WoW, would it be 30% or whatever, people would just raise their prices, so that independant market will also raise their prices, beucase market will allow them to.
Obviously posting items would better be done in game, but auction itself is big decision and will change things.
Since this project was never supposed to copy successful ideas, but rather come up with something new, players would better handle transactions and stuff themselfs, but should also have bulletins in towns allowing them to add their own records. Like "selling stims for 100 caps/piece, radio me at 1234, available usualy from 3-6pm".
Postal service or multiplayer storage might improve this as well (eg. you get container with numeric combination, so you might just pass the combination and insert item in there, so you will not need to be online to pass the item.
Ofcourse players then might want to scam people so you will likely take 50% of payment first and pay the rest after delivery or whatever, it's just about players.
On the other hand completly automatic auction would make nearly everyone trade, creating real economy. But would feel a little artificial. Again it's all up to developers :d, and I hope they'll chose the best compromise between originality and functionality.
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I think auctions can be a good improvement but it will need some restrictions:
-You talk to a npc and give the items to sell and make the offer, and you need to pay the npc a tax, lets say 10% of the offer. This tax is for make the offer available. So auctions will have a cost and trade with other players will be still encouraged.
-You can cancel your auction at any time and recover the item/s (but not the tax payment).
-Possible limitation to high tier stuff, so this stuff can only be tradable from player to player.
-Max duration time for each auction to prevent overload. Lets say after a rl week the offer gets unavailable and you have a rl month to get your item/s back.
So the dialog with the npc will be like:
for sell:
-select item you want to sell
-select amount of items* (can be predefined to: lets say 1, 10 50 or 100)
-introduce offer
-Player pay 10% of the offer and the auction become available
For buy:
-Select item you want to buy
-select amount of items
-display the auction with the cheapest offer (if there is any) if equal offers are available the older gets priority
*For non stackable items only option will be 1.
Also an option/command to check auctions status via radio will be nice.
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I do think that RavenWolf is on the right track.
I also think that each city (maybe not every city) should have its own seperate auction sight. We don't want an offline auction option where goods magically teleport across the map from buyer to seller.
Having seperate auction sites in each city may also allow those who enjoy trading to take advantage of mispricing of goods between cities., for example brahmin hides for sale in ncr may be cheaper than in san fran.
However, one issue I do have with an auction site through a npc is that people would crowd the npc, and boom, a suicide bomber (or less dramatic, someone staying by the npc and not allowing anyone else talk to them).
Anyway, back to the initial discussion on gathering/mining, would there be difficulties in implementing a gathering/mining scenario based on the ad hoc features, such as the dogs of la quest.
For example, you speak to an npc in a city, who says he saw a mine nearby, and you are then given the location on your pip-boy of somewhere to collect a specific resource. The location could maybe only be accessed the one time, and to collect more resources, you must speak to the npc again for a new location.
The npc could charge people for the location, or it could be implemented into a quest (for example the npc asks for specific item before releasing the whereabouts of the mine).
The location could have animals or npc's that need to be eradicated before mining?
You could also make it a team scenario, in which a group of players entering as a party have the possibility of finding more resources (but more animals/npcs to kill first).
Also, just as a side note.
Well you hate it and you wouldn't mind it, kinda contradiction.
Wouldn't minding, and wouldn't objecting are quite different statements, thus there was no contradiction in what I said.
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However, one issue I do have with an auction site through a npc is that people would crowd the npc, and boom, a suicide bomber (or less dramatic, someone staying by the npc and not allowing anyone else talk to them).
-- Good Observation! - Then how would they fix that problem?
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-- Good Observation! - Then how would they fix that problem?
by making some pvp free location. Steal attempt => instakilled by guard, activating dynamite or having one active => instakilled by guard, taking weapon to active hand => instakilled by guard, Lockpick attempt => instakilled by guard (to allow cars and caravans to auction), all mercs => instakilled by guard, and more auction npcs in single auction location.
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avv: i disagree. I think that devs should create "scenario" ("script"), full it with obstacles and force players to adopt to that situations. Apopt by raising special skills, preparing and acquiring needed requirement.
I like idea that was implemented in single player Fallout mod, Fallout Of Nevada (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58394).
There are locations of abandoned cities, full of deserted buildings, but doors are locked. So you need lockpick to enter, or to open chest inside. Some of the locations are full of radioactivity, so you need rad x and rad away = investition. I suggest to use little rework geiger computer.. he should show another info. The amount of rad. per. sec. (not the maximum dose you get), so you would see if current place is worthy.
Avv, I think that you look on chars customization in bad way. Of course, they would have to invest some points into neccesary skills, bud they dont need to raise it over 150 or over 100.. This number depends on devs.
You know, at this moment, you are still forced to raise some neccesary skills to survive against beasts and players (any firearm skill is needed, or combo of sneak and throwing, ..). Your hypothetical char with tagged speech, gambling and traps is useless now. Why? Because there are not any obstacles you have to overcome with those skills.
IF this game would be very balanced, i believe that every possible char would have its own way how to survive and live in fonline wasteland. But this is an ilusion, because well known facts (less time of devs, hard to realize, bad form betatesting from players,..). So i would rather see entertaining way, the way i need to adopt to the wasteland condition (well, so surprising that i have to adopt to post nuclear world?) if any new kind of gameplay is granted.
Newbies or other players would still have their own ways.. tier 0 (it could be very wide scale of stuff), trading, .... .
Scypior: I see the fear of alting in devs eyes. Alts were not your original idea. But after two years, there was a lot of time that you could realize that there is nothing to do with and you should change your view of this phenomen. Instead of negative, look at it as an chalenge and positive thing. Again, constructing, developing, testing and using new types of chars are for faction players one of the main reasons why to play fonline.
One example: I like to play SG Sniper. Here is evolution of developement in current era only:
1) post wipe basic sniper without drugs, 10 PE, cca 167 HP, 10 LC, weapon handling, max sniper perks
2) then faction get acces to drugs, so sniper char with buffout, nuka and cig. (more perception because of sharpshooter perk thats replace weapon handling,..). = Best classical sniper char with maximized snipers skill (luck and pe, snipers perks). 12 PE, 1677 HP, 10 LC.
3) When large alliances fought between themselfs, it was obvious that new type of sniper char is needed. Because of huge amount of players in each team durign the fight, sniper char dont need as much to protect himself, rather than focus on damage. So builds with 11 PE, 149(or 14x) HP, 6, 7 luck and "almost dualshot" ability were very popular in those huge battles.
4) After many players left fonline, there were small battles (in New Reno,..) rather than huge ones. So player who wants to enjoy this fights, needs to create char with higher HP to stay as long as possible. So snipers with 220 or 240 HP, with lower luck and PE was designed.
This is simple review of developement of SG sniper build in last era. It would not be possible without alting (creating and using more than one alt per person). It was chalenging, it was reaction on situation. And i unfortunately have to tell you, that i dont think that many devs even know about this. This is reason, why i personaly "little dislike" surf in his game position, because he should be connection between playeres and devs and he should report about this to devs. Devs reactions are: "alts are bad, we need something to do agaisnt them, but we dont know what." But i (faction player) want to see "alts give additional gameplay, we need to support alting in some way".
Sorry for little OT post, but its core is related with gathering :)
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Personally, I do not have nothing against such alts as you've described - you just have various builds, for various occasions, sure it's got little to do with RP, but for that we would need entirely different server rules.
The only thing that would effectively reduce your characters number in such context, would be scrapping point-distribution skill system entirely in favor of item bonuses (isn't it what Diablo3 will be doing?).
The problem with alts is bigger - and it is connected to gathering - when they are just used to bypass some game mechanic (cooldown). Players feel cheated when they have to wait for artificial cooldown, so they are cheating back:)
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i just had the idea of cooldowns for gathering bound to the ip, that would fix alting, but ecourage proxy usage :-/
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There are two basic principles fighting each others.
1) prevent of enourmous amount of stuff (weapons, ammo, armors, drugs, ...).
It has two variants: 1a) quality prevention and 1b) quantity prevention.
ad 1a) means that as devs. you dont want enviroment, where everybody uses only best stuff
ad 1b) means that as devs. you want to create post apocalyptic enviroment with atmosphere of shortage, also this replace the players afraid of perma death of their char and force player to behave at least carefully (not suicide at all).
2) players should get enough stuff in reasonable time to play their favourite roleplay (pvp, pve, ...).
So you created cooldowns (for gathering, for crafting, for NPC traders stuff respawn, ..). Also you created and balanced weapons (armors, drugs,...) strenght and adequate demand of resources that tries to match the weapons strenght hierarchy.
Better and more stuff, better and more resources = more cooldowns = more time.
But there are players, a lot of them, that see entertainment and gameplay only during actions, that requires only best stuff, otherwise they dont have any chance to succeed.
But also, there are players, a lot of them, that see entertaiment and gameplay in slowly developing of their char, using more and more advanced weapons during the time, until they reach some invisible goal and then they left, or join PvP factions, or ... .
So there exist different groups of players with different demands. Cooldowns is for one group almost useless obstacle that has to be overcomed (alting, proxy, but also in game mechanism.. PK for stuff, tent thiefs, ..). For other group, elimination of cooldowns means elimination of their way how to play Fonline.
So in past, you devs tried to calibrate the level using cooldowns that would be ok for all. I think that this aproach is impossible.
So i suggested the "obstacle system".
ad 1a) In PvE, there would not exist such thing as a best stuff. There could be a types of critters, that needs a specific weapons (i.e. knockback shotguns for wanamingos, flamethrowers for spore plants, emp nades for robots, ..), armors (i.e. fire resistant armor against firegeckons) or stuff (flares, lockpics, geigers, ropes, toolkits).
In PvP, there exist kind of balance of weapons, that will i hope continue. (I hope at least 2 or 3 usable weapons in PvP per each weapons skill). Also i suggested low equip locations for PvP (=> not such thing as a best stuff..).
So in general, there should not exist one best stuff item.
ad 1b) Quantity should be reduced in that way, that high tier stuff needs investment of low tier ones (as i wrote in previous posts).
Cooldowns are not needed. They are replaced by obstacles: a) critters (kill, eliminate, disarm, run thru) b) time to get acquire lower tier stuff you need to invest to get higher tier. c) char. developement to survive those obstacles.
Alts in current way are not needed. Chars for mining (scav.) needs to level up to adequate level and because of no cooldowns, only one char is enough (until you develop best type of char for overcome the obstacles, but then you dont need your first alt anyway).
Solo players would have their mountain, they could climb up. PvP players dont need to climb up whole mountain. If they need tier max stuff (i.e. sniper and kevlar armor in mariposa military base stores), they need only emp nades, el. lockpick and science skill to disable some defences. They can trade emp nades with other players for other stuff, from npcs, they dont needs directly start from tier 0 dungeons to fet tier 1 stuff, than tier 2, tier 3 until tier max. They dont need the climb the rock, they can bivouac just under the peak(trading with other players, NPCs,..). Do you undestand me?
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Do you undestand me?
Of course, though it's not that easy to 'implement' (yeah, this word do not fit here even). It's not a single idea, rather a 'trend', that also others were noticing and suggesting (obstacles instead of timeouts). So it should naturally progress into (more or less) this direction. Not gonna happen instantly though.
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There's nothing wrong with pvp alts because sometimes you need for example sneak but your gang's sneaker is afk. But gathering alts are just group of unnecessary and pointless alts that don't have to exist in first place.
I see skills, perks and stats as tradeoffs - you put points in an ability which means you are weaker at some other area. It's clearly visible and balanced in combat: you take either lifegiver or bonus rate of fire. You can't bring your alt in the middle of combat when there's a situation that lifegiver would have been a better choice.
But if you put some sort of requirements for gathering in form of SPECIAL, there is no trade off. You just make a char and it's perfectly suitable for its job.
If skills are to be needed in gathering, then they best have combat use aswell. Aside from choice of weapon, doc and FA come right afterwards as tagged skills. So if lockpick, repair and science were needed to gather stuff they best have some direct and visible use in pvp equal to doctor.
But personally I see the current gathering requirements just fine. Any char can collect everything. Only thing that's missing are replacing the cooldowns with correct challenges.
I do not know Lordus why you support alt-based gathering. Wouldn't it be much better if you could just keep logged on your main character named Lordus and travel the world and go to places where you needed to go and do stuff you need to do without the need of relogs. When you need to do something specific you just change equipment, not char.
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Whoever mentioned that crafting and digging materials isn't fallout style was right. Come to think of it- if the people of the post apocalyptic world could make high quality metal parts just by tinkering with a workbench they would rise the world from the ashes in few years. So I have to admit that the whole idea of mining and crafting is..well...not fallout canon-ish. I think that the best solution would be to have a lot of specific areas on the world map which would contain some wrecked cars, ruined buildings and stuff like that so the players could use their repair skill for mechanical and science for electronic stuff. If it would be backed by a dependency:the higher skill the better stuff, and by THE STUFF i mean not complete weapons but maybe parts that would work as weapon components. It would result in a situation like:
guy A with a high enough lvl to make and use tier 2 weapons and a guy B at lvl 1 enters a location. A can pwn B but he wont benefit from it in terms of equipement(only lulz) so he could just go about his buissnes and leave, while B can hide until A goes away and scavage for his first pistol and die and the first radscorpion encounter 2 minutes later.
The entire idea would be just fine if there would be a price difference of tiers. For exaple: tier 1 stuff would be rather cheap and available at almost all merchants. Tier 2 would cost twice as much as tier 1 and only a few merchants would be able to buy and sell it. And tier 3 would be available only to certain faction members and maybe those who are best friends forever with the gun runners and still would cost the shit out of players. And last but not least tier 0 stuff would be sought only by some vendors like general stores and merchants like the bartender in NCR the general store migdet in Hub and so on and on. And only they would by those tons of radios and other stuff that every merchant has now. Another feat maybe; those tier 0 merchants would only trade those radios for parts. Istead of giving X caps for a radio they would offer an almost complete set for a 10mm pistol, for something better they would be willing to give a larger clip for the desert eagle...What do you guys and gals think?
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NPC driven economy is always destined to fail although restricting few traders to junk only and leaving the rest radio free is fine idea.
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I think that the best solution would be to have a lot of specific areas on the world map which would contain some wrecked cars, ruined buildings and stuff like that so the players could use their repair skill for mechanical and science for electronic stuff. If it would be backed by a dependency:the higher skill the better stuff,
The fixed locations would be the best alternative but skill-dependent gear wouldn't. Players would make science/repair 300 alts and roam those places with them. We had once cooldowns depending on skill and it lead nothing else but high skill alts dedicated to do nothing but that. More relogs, fastrelogs and proxies.
The system is best when you can center it around one character, keep yourself busy with that char without the desire to jump on other character or play multiple ones at the same time.
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The fixed locations would be the best alternative but skill-dependent gear wouldn't. Players would make science/repair 300 alts and roam those places with them. We had once cooldowns depending on skill and it lead nothing else but high skill alts dedicated to do nothing but that. More relogs, fastrelogs and proxies.
The system is best when you can center it around one character, keep yourself busy with that char without the desire to jump on other character or play multiple ones at the same time.
I'm a loner. Well mostly. I enjoy having my char walking the wasteland to kill things, people and critters, but I also enjoy that I dont need to relog to craft gather and use the weapons. I dont like alts at all. My char is prepared to go to gecko mine and gather some ores (or kill somebody who has them already) I would very much like to see more if not all the characters in fonline like this. The fixed locations with skill dependant items to gather could prove challenging for specialized crafting alt if it'll encounter a player like me. My char would pwn the hell out of the alt with ease. My idea from the previous post is just a vision of fonline i would be most satisfied to play. Alts would have problems with even the low lvl players, those low lvl would not be afraid of loosing their stuff so much if its easier to get and those locations would bound to become pretty nasty small pvp arenas
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Avv:
I divide gathering requirements into:
1) combat requirements .. it is not only one special, skill, perks, stuff ability, it consist of many of them. In most cases you dont need to fulfil many or all requiremets , but at least one.
2) non combat requirements: .. like previous, there could be two requirements (skills, stuff, ...) or more i need or at least one of them.
I.e: Lordus go to mine to "gather weapon stuff". There are wanamingos, vulnerable to knockback weapons. I have shotgun with this perk (or i can have melee, maybe unarmed with adequate perk,...), or i have friend with those perks.
I pass thru the place with wanamingos and i need to open doors, that protects me so i can "gather".
As a solo player, i could tag it needed skill, add skill points there even it was not tagged (just set adequate level 75, 100, 125), i could do quest that raises need skill, i could use item that raises needed skill (lockpick). As a semi-solo player, i could ask friend or someone at NCR. As a PvP player, i could create "gathering powerbuild" that would be more efficient in geting over that obstacles (locked doors, wanamingos, ..), so if i want to PvP, i would need to spend less time to do it.
I usualy give to my crafters and traders 10 INT, so i can level up this types of char very fast. This also gives me a chance to spend rest skill points to other than main skills i need at the moment, or i think that i would need. And i think this is the way how it should work. If the limits to overcome an obstacle would be set to non-nonsense level (75, 100, 125 skill points), your char, thru your natural (non speeded) leveling would get acces to higher and higher tier stuff. (Roleplay element). If you dont want to wait, you can use friends help (multiplayer element), or you can create specific "gathering build".
For powerbuilders, there could be a special requirement (i.e.) 200 in skill points, 250 .. That would grant you double? outcome, but of course, the time needed to raise your skill by lvling up would be quite longer, but after you would reach this, your suplying of your pvp powerbuild would be more easier.
(I.e.: to get to underground lvl of some gathering location, where you can get more (better) res. (stuff), you need 200 repair (or 150 repair and 150 science) to repair an elevator..).
But again, i dont want to place nonsense obstacles. It shloud be implemented in "path is the destination" philosophy. Instead of 200, 300 skill requirements, i would like to see 100 skil requirement, but many skills needed.
ShemsuHor:
I agree that "weapon parts" like trigger, barrel, container sound better than metal part. I think in past eras, there was something like this. I like the idea, that if i need to craft or assemble some weapon, i could use different weapon, disasemple it and vice versa. I this possibility would be in game, i would have another way how to overcome an "gathering" obstacles.
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Even with 120 to lockpick you'd need an alt. For example snipers need about 230 sg and sneakers are so minmaxed they can't do anything except that. I'd absolutely love to play as solo sneaker but sneaks can't do anything but sneak and shoot.
Best alternative would be that certain items, drugs and equipment would boost your skill to certain level so that you can use it to gather. Or the skills simply have to have a combat purpose or merged with other skills.
or at least one of them.
If it really is at least one, then it better be like that. If the skills increase the benefit, we see alts again. In addition if you for example need either lockpick alt or supermega lockpickset mkIII, don't you think players will just make the bluesuit lockpicker rather than risk expensive item?
But overall there's not much need for skill dependent gathering. It's not matter of balance and the whole system isn't going to break if skill-based isn't included. What the whole thread is about is to get interesting, fluent and fun gathering system.
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Scrap gathering. STOP. Scrap timeouts. STOP. Scrap crafting ores into materials. STOP. Get scaveging. STOP. Give limits to traders. STOP. Have fun. STOP.
The whole thread was made to ask players for ideas on how to go with gathering and timeouts. Right now we arent giving much feedback :'(
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[...]Best alternative would be that certain items, drugs and equipment would boost your skill to certain level so that you can use it to gather. Or the skills simply have to have a combat purpose or merged with other skills.
Another alternative is to change the spread of skill points. You know how an unarmed fighter doesn't really need more than about 145% unarmed to get 95% hit on everything - therefore leaving many spare points to put on other things?
Well, if the cap was brought down similarly on the other skills i.e. 200% or 150% is maximum, there'd be a lot more spare points to spread around and therefore the potential for more balanced characters - or in other words, most characters are able to do most things to a very basic level, or to specialise in several instead of just one.
Would need quite a lot of further changes, i.e. how effective certain numbers were - so 100% lockpick would need to be able to do unlock almost anything, 100% sneak would need to be pretty sneaky, 100% small guns would need to be pretty accurate etc.
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Scrap gathering. STOP. Scrap timeouts. STOP. Scrap crafting ores into materials. STOP. Get scaveging. STOP. Give limits to traders. STOP. Have fun. STOP.
The whole thread was made to ask players for ideas on how to go with gathering and timeouts. Right now we arent giving much feedback :'(
I agree with you. STOP. But we are used to this kind of alternate debate. STOP. :D . STOP
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What about just raising the amount of skillpoints one can get drastically? Means more points players can put in other things except their main gunskill (for pvp players) etc?
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We need 3 skill groups : Combat, Supportive (FA, Doc, Outdoorsman, Sneak) and Other skills ( the rest ) where you can put your SP, into each group separately.
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This would only overcomplicate it. A simple "buff" to the skillpoint pool would be the easiest solution.
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Another alternative is to change the spread of skill points. You know how an unarmed fighter doesn't really need more than about 145% unarmed to get 95% hit on everything - therefore leaving many spare points to put on other things?
Well, if the cap was brought down similarly on the other skills i.e. 200% or 150% is maximum, there'd be a lot more spare points to spread around and therefore the potential for more balanced characters - or in other words, most characters are able to do most things to a very basic level, or to specialise in several instead of just one.
Would need quite a lot of further changes, i.e. how effective certain numbers were - so 100% lockpick would need to be able to do unlock almost anything, 100% sneak would need to be pretty sneaky, 100% small guns would need to be pretty accurate etc.
awesome +1
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This would only overcomplicate it. A simple "buff" to the skillpoint pool would be the easiest solution.
But then, people would only reduce INT, because they have enough SP for combat skills => make better powerbuilds. Also people would rather invest SP into mandatory skills ( gun skill, maybe two, fa, doc, od ) and still make an alt.
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But then, people would only reduce INT, because they have enough SP for combat skills => make better powerbuilds. Also people would rather invest SP into mandatory skills ( gun skill, maybe two, fa, doc, od ) and still make an alt.
Yeah, but this is still a very good idea. You don't have to make barter alt, medic alt and repair alt separately, if you can get all these on one character and he won't be lame barter, hopeless medic and dull maintenance guy. And if current low cooldowns would stay or even gonna be removed at all, mining alts would also become past. This how it should be, I guess.
And about powerbuilds - they remain, whatever system, mechanic or improvements would be. It's still the same for everyone, so everyone can make "teh ape to pwn n00bz", isn't it?
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This dangerously is going off-topic. Take care.
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But then, people would only reduce INT, because they have enough SP for combat skills => make better powerbuilds. Also people would rather invest SP into mandatory skills ( gun skill, maybe two, fa, doc, od ) and still make an alt.
Not true... mostly that is, You still need high INT for BROF (as of now... I hope there are more fighting perks in the future that require INT) So you will still be pretty much tied to get a decent amount of Int just to make your APE efficient.
I however prefer having the whole skillpoint idea divided into at least 2 paths, Crafting and Fighting, forcing you to have balanced characters instead of extreme power build APES, and it also goes in along with more SP per level, so as wichura said, we can always have PVP characters that can pass as decent doctors or mechanics.. or crafting apes that and will fight back in PVP, just not as good
Yes this could simplify what little roleplaying there is in this game, but considering just how many people just complain about how boring is to ABSOLUTELY need alts, and as we all know alting means waiting, then this just might as well cut it for now
And Scypior, If this thread goes a little off topic, then let it be if it is for a good reason, but you got a point so lets try to keep this thread about gathering cooldowns... and for that I say scrap em, actually there is this thing I learned about while getting back to RO (another mmorpg) called the endless tower, an event that can only be entered once a week, filled to the brim with the toughest mobs in the game, but also with sure to get sick loot, and it needs you to bring a really good and balanced team to get the most out of it... I loved that idea and something like that could be implemented here, its always fun to have a huge challenge once a week
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For those who think gathering cooldowns should dissapear: WTF?!? imagine its the start of a new server and there is no cooldowns.....it would take less than a day for everyone to run around with BA and Miniguns. Economy would be completly ruined, no one would buy anything to other players or vendors, they could just make it all themselves. If there is to be any sort of interaction between players cooldowns HAVE to stay.
To those who say SP should be raised and split in dif categories: WTF!?! How lame would it be for everyone to be able to do everything? What would be the point of making a crafter if everyone is a crafter? Once again that would limit the interactions between players to a never seen before level. (and its already pretty low) Divide skills points into dif categories? Why? cant you decide by yourself where you want your points to be placed?
Feedback for the Devs: In my opinion gathering and crafting cooldowns were perfect the way they used to be. It gave a good balance to the economy, and added a degree of realism to it all. I mean, crafting a minigun starting with the basic materials HAS to take time. I know clicking the FIX button dosent take time...but you gotta imagine the time it would actually take to craft the gun. Also improved interactions between players; if you wanted to be able to mine more ore, then youd have to bring some friends with you. (or PK miners depending on your style) It made buying stuff from other players worth it, and overall balanced the whole game.
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it would take less than a day for everyone to run around with BA and Miniguns.
Happens even with cooldowns. Get cooldown on one char, just relog to another char. So basically cooldown for anything is only as long as your relog time is.
Economy would be completly ruined
It has always broken. In every wipe.
Feedback for the Devs: In my opinion gathering and crafting cooldowns were perfect the way they used to be.
Personal opinion.
It gave a good balance to the economy, and added a degree of realism to it all.
It only promoted cheaters.
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For those who think gathering cooldowns should dissapear: WTF?!? imagine its the start of a new server and there is no cooldowns.....it would take less than a day for everyone to run around with BA and Miniguns. Economy would be completly ruined, no one would buy anything to other players or vendors, they could just make it all themselves. If there is to be any sort of interaction between players cooldowns HAVE to stay.
To those who say SP should be raised and split in dif categories: WTF!?! How lame would it be for everyone to be able to do everything? What would be the point of making a crafter if everyone is a crafter? Once again that would limit the interactions between players to a never seen before level. (and its already pretty low) Divide skills points into dif categories? Why? cant you decide by yourself where you want your points to be placed?
Feedback for the Devs: In my opinion gathering and crafting cooldowns were perfect the way they used to be. It gave a good balance to the economy, and added a degree of realism to it all. I mean, crafting a minigun starting with the basic materials HAS to take time. I know clicking the FIX button dosent take time...but you gotta imagine the time it would actually take to craft the gun. Also improved interactions between players; if you wanted to be able to mine more ore, then youd have to bring some friends with you. (or PK miners depending on your style) It made buying stuff from other players worth it, and overall balanced the whole game.
1. There is no economy to begin with.
2. Unless you call dual-logging and alting "economy".
3. Everyone gets his hand on top tier gear sooner or later so why be a jackass and restrict them with cooldowns?
4. Fun > realism.
5. I like bacon.
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For those who think gathering cooldowns should dissapear: WTF?!? imagine its the start of a new server and there is no cooldowns.....it would take less than a day for everyone to run around with BA and Miniguns. Economy would be completly ruined, no one would buy anything to other players or vendors, they could just make it all themselves. If there is to be any sort of interaction between players cooldowns HAVE to stay.
To those who say SP should be raised and split in dif categories: WTF!?! How lame would it be for everyone to be able to do everything? What would be the point of making a crafter if everyone is a crafter? Once again that would limit the interactions between players to a never seen before level. (and its already pretty low) Divide skills points into dif categories? Why? cant you decide by yourself where you want your points to be placed?
Feedback for the Devs: In my opinion gathering and crafting cooldowns were perfect the way they used to be. It gave a good balance to the economy, and added a degree of realism to it all. I mean, crafting a minigun starting with the basic materials HAS to take time. I know clicking the FIX button dosent take time...but you gotta imagine the time it would actually take to craft the gun. Also improved interactions between players; if you wanted to be able to mine more ore, then youd have to bring some friends with you. (or PK miners depending on your style) It made buying stuff from other players worth it, and overall balanced the whole game.
Right now we have a situation where:
- cooldowns are going around with miner alts and proxy connections, also always, sooner or later, everyone has at least few BA
- people are self-sufficient anyway, due to having specialized alts in their bases, question is how many alts you require to be satisfied and "be able to do everything"
- interaction means "look, a noob! shoot!" *pew pew*
- economy does not exist
How long do you play this, mister? A month?
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Hi, I'm new here and would like to provide some feedback from the freshman's point of view.
Seeing how most of the problems discussed here are the ones made by players (abuse, PvP stuff, grind, spreadsheet characters, gathering materials), I'd like to point out "this other stuff" being broken Perks, lack of Quests etc.
First of all - Perks useless in RT mode. Bonus Move should make characters having it actually run faster, while Earlier Sequence could randomly regenerate 2 AP instead of 1, say with a 10% chance.
Second thing - Broken Perks/Stats or ones that do not give any "special ability" only some +Skills bonus. That is Living Anatomy, Ranger's encounters evasion bonus and Perception's encounter placement bonus. Since many Stats/Skills provide such Perks - builds centered around them are highly unfavourable when compared with tested battle Perks. I would suggest tweaking certain Perks in a way that fits Fonline. For example Mr.Fixit could give 50% chance (or 100% like Crazy Bomber with Traps) to negate failed maintenance durability drop. Near-useless 4-8 extra healed HP from Healer could be switched to upping Luck for the purpose of FA checks or just lower the cooldowns on FA/Doctor.
Quests - they provide shitty exp, pityfull rewards and hours of runing errands all around the world usually give about as much as 5 minutes of farming junk for Brass Knuckles. That certainly needs to change. Low level chars would die a couple times in the process while higher levels just won't bother. A shining exaple are some quests that need say level 10 to initiate but give 200-500 xp at best.
Companions/Slaves/Mercs - They're TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE, especially the basic ones! Seriously, how come a shitty mixed-breed dog found everywhere in the Wasteland is worth a couple guns!? This and lack of actual Fallout NPC "reactions" (yeah, Fallout 2 was crap at that too) completely kills the fun of starting with good Charisma so no wonder most people go with 3 or even 1 if they're joining Player-made faction. Perhaps also make Animal Fiend an ability to catch Geckos of various kind? That and ability to revive fallen companions would be great additions.
I'll add more as I explore the world of Fonline2238 a bit more.
Best Regards,
doc Clumsy
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Well, i was about to suggest some new skills, and one of those was Gathering (Or Scavenging)
Basically gathering cooldown limit would be dependant on that skill, and maybe it could also reduce alittle Crafting cooldown. You think is wrong?
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Hi, I'm new here and would like to provide some feedback from the freshman's point of view.
Seeing how most of the problems discussed here are the ones made by players (abuse, PvP stuff, grind, spreadsheet characters, gathering materials), I'd like to point out "this other stuff" being broken Perks, lack of Quests etc.
First of all - Perks useless in RT mode. Bonus Move should make characters having it actually run faster, while Earlier Sequence could randomly regenerate 2 AP instead of 1, say with a 10% chance.
Second thing - Broken Perks/Stats or ones that do not give any "special ability" only some +Skills bonus. That is Living Anatomy, Ranger's encounters evasion bonus and Perception's encounter placement bonus. Since many Stats/Skills provide such Perks - builds centered around them are highly unfavourable when compared with tested battle Perks. I would suggest tweaking certain Perks in a way that fits Fonline. For example Mr.Fixit could give 50% chance (or 100% like Crazy Bomber with Traps) to negate failed maintenance durability drop. Near-useless 4-8 extra healed HP from Healer could be switched to upping Luck for the purpose of FA checks or just lower the cooldowns on FA/Doctor.
Quests - they provide shitty exp, pityfull rewards and hours of runing errands all around the world usually give about as much as 5 minutes of farming junk for Brass Knuckles. That certainly needs to change. Low level chars would die a couple times in the process while higher levels just won't bother. A shining exaple are some quests that need say level 10 to initiate but give 200-500 xp at best.
Companions/Slaves/Mercs - They're TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE, especially the basic ones! Seriously, how come a shitty mixed-breed dog found everywhere in the Wasteland is worth a couple guns!? This and lack of actual Fallout NPC "reactions" (yeah, Fallout 2 was crap at that too) completely kills the fun of starting with good Charisma so no wonder most people go with 3 or even 1 if they're joining Player-made faction. Perhaps also make Animal Fiend an ability to catch Geckos of various kind? That and ability to revive fallen companions would be great additions.
I'll add more as I explore the world of Fonline2238 a bit more.
Best Regards,
doc Clumsy
Why do you bring perks, quests and other shit into this topic ? All these faults are known and if you had used search you would know that they are working on them.
The price of companions is dependant on the market need, the more people buy specific comanions, the more expensive they are.
FYI: Living anatomy does more than just adding SP
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Indeed, doc Clumsy you should really think before you post, as such I shall go down the list of what is wrong about your post
Not all perks are supposed to be useful in RT plenty of people have characters that are made for TB.
Lots of perks are being reworked for the future, Living Anatomy is one of the greatest perks for a pistolero, Most of the perks that add skill points are quite useful when you take them at times where it costs 3+ skillpoints to raise a single point. You say things like healer is useless, I have a merc leader who LOVES it, The leader has no fighting skills but is a fantastic doctor so I can keep my mercs in tip top shape. those 4-10 extra hp can be the difference between losing 50k on a merc or keeping him alive.
Quests require a large amount of scripting and the rewards are mostly fine. 800xp and a leather jacket is nothing to frown upon. Nor is...2500-3k xp for mordino quest. Also they allow those that are new to run around and explore the world with the hope of getting a prize at the end.
Slaves/Mercs prices are terrible because of previous problems with the economy due to bank interest.
Yet another newcomer that wants taming, it has been discussed soooo god damn much use the search function if you want to learn about it.
To sum it up, Use the wiki http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Main_Page That will teach you a few things and hopefully make you realize mistakes about comments you have made.
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To those fearing removing cooldowns would ruin economy, it's not like we're going to remove them just like that, without any other adjustments.
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For those who bashed at my post - that's speciffically why I opened it with a statement about being a newcomer and presenting my newcomer's point of view as to what changes would be most dsirable.
Pointing me to wiki, please consider that it's outdated and it does say Living Anatomy is broken in the +5dmg department.
I did think before posting this, so please restrain yourself from flamey comments about search function and such. I brought those "already worked on" problems in because - as stated above: these are the ones that bother me most.
There can be no mistakes in one's personal opinion as it is me and myself who knows best what I want and like.
The thread was about fedback and feedback is usually considered to be a sum of poster's experiences and likes/dislikes within the game at given point in developement, so "known prolems" are just as important as new ones because bringing them up again helps the devs to prioritize their work. Also, as with all formus going on for some time, old topics sink so deep that reviving them would only harness "threadomancer" comments, while doing it my way can bring attention of the makers to what problems scare newbies away. And without constant influx of those frowned upon newbs, the game will just slowly burn out and die, seen that - not a plaesant view.
Also, why some Perks are supposed not to do shit in RT? Because you say so? Its just a matter of implementing them to mechanics other than they were previously designed for, and not simply sealing that part of gmaeplay off out of lazyness imho.
I do realise the previous post was somewhat off-topic, but hope you can forgive me that; seeing how this is one of the most lively threads and thus I hoped it could make my comments more visible.
Sincerely,
doc Clumsy
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Very simple (i would rather use example without introduction).
Combat armor cost = X metal parts, Y alloys, Z leathers
Brotherhood amor cost = 3X metalparts, 3Y alloys, 3Z leathers
So simply, the difference of quality between finest stuff and "almost finest stuff" could be small, the difference of needed resources could be big.
It would cause, that players, who want to join specific situation (PvP, PvE,..) could do that without many hours per day gathering, but also players, who have more time could be "rewarded" for their effort. Also this finest stuff would be better trophy in PvP than basic one.
Problems, questions, solutions..:
1) Not every PvP stuff have its own "almost finest" clone (I.e.: there is not alternative for Sniper rifle, and sorry, scoped hunting is not).
2) People could think that difference is not worthy.. but you know .. if you collect tier finest stuff (weapon, armor, ammo, drugs?,..) and put it on at one time, it would give you advantage.
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there is not alternative for Sniper rifle, and sorry, scoped hunting is not).
Bozars for Big Gunners and Laser Rifle for Energy Snipers.
Apart that little correction, i agree with ya.
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I have been away for a few weeks with a busy time at work and a poorly boy at home ... any chance someone can boil down the last 9 pages into a few lines? ;)
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Pointing me to wiki, please consider that it's outdated and it does say Living Anatomy is broken in the +5dmg department.
Where?
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I have been away for a few weeks with a busy time at work and a poorly boy at home ... any chance someone can boil down the last 9 pages into a few lines? ;)
Not a problem.
[some random bitching about random things]
[remove cooldowns]
[other bitching about random things]
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I have been away for a few weeks with a busy time at work and a poorly boy at home ... any chance someone can boil down the last 9 pages into a few lines? ;)
It's basically about discussion how and whether or not to replace gathering cooldowns with challenges, risks and randomness so that cheating with proxies and alts isn't encouraged anymore.
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Ah, I was going to have all higher tier stuff crafted and gathered for at dangerous places - with a PvE method also available. Sort of the same lines.
I did like the idea of the scavenging areas in Themepark etc. Should be possible without too much effort too.
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Where?
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Living_Anatomy
You have a better understanding of living creatures and their strengths and weaknesses. You get a one-time bonus of +10% to Doctor, and you do +5 damage per attack to living creatures.
Note: Despite its ingame description, this perk gives +20% to Doctor instead of +10% and +5 damage per attack to living creatures. This may or may not be a bug and is subject to change in the future.
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That's not what it is stating, it is stating it gives 20% doc instead of the 10%. Not that the +5 dmg does not work.
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I didn't read everything and i think i will not ! But i played fonline for a long time and come back from hard mounths of work, and actuals cooldown !!! wtf ? 26 HQ minerals for 20min ! It's a little too much i think, furthermore we played mounths with 6 hq for 20min, how disapointed i am to see now it's 26.
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They are just testing a few different things before the wipe happens, After the wipe don't expect it to be anything close to what it is now but it may be improved from what it was before the update.
Scypior just posted about this
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18164.30
Apparently my edit failed to work and I double posted NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
That doesn't mean we're gonna let HQ stuff be easy.
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Good, rare high tier gear will make it seem like the first weeks after wipe go on longer=more fun ;D
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I have been away for a few weeks with a busy time at work and a poorly boy at home ... any chance someone can boil down the last 9 pages into a few lines? ;)
Some people thinks cooldowns are fine, its the best system at now.
Some others think that we need something new because actual economy is broken
Some others believe that economy is fine now
Most of the guys agree with the fact that economy will never be good.
There are a lot of suggestions about pure scavenging, find and fix broken weapons, resources=danger, etc.
In my opinion its easiest if you devs use your own brains and forget all this stuff (but not literally), if you want to make something clear about all this stuff your brains will explode.
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Some people thinks cooldowns are fine, its the best system at now.
Those people are just plain wrong. As said multiple times cooldowns aren't fun and they are encourage cheating.
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Those people are just plain wrong. As said multiple times cooldowns aren't fun and they are encourage cheating.
Let's just clarify that our latest build contains refactored gathering without cooldowns. Yipiee!
Still, it's not usable at the moment:>
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Let the countdown begin to a whole new set of things for people to moan about! Hurrah!
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Ok lets start the countdown. I start:
Soon
Soon
Soon
...
SCNR ;)
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Ok lets start the countdown. I start:
Soon
Soon
Soon
...
SCNR ;)
more like
soon
sooner
even more sooner
even more sooner
Btw coouldn't it wait ehh.. for another month ? i need time to finish mah map.
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The new cooldowns might break economy, but man, its so nice to see people mining again. And players guarding mines.
Or PVP in toxic caves, because more people bother to go. More people are crafting, these sights have more life and theres more action!
Less world map, more purpose to be places. I dig it alot.
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Let the countdown begin to a whole new set of things for people to moan about! Hurrah!
-26 739 205
-26 739 206
-26 739 207
-26 739 208
...Hurrah... >:( ::)
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The new cooldowns might break economy, but man, its so nice to see people mining again. And players guarding mines.
Or PVP in toxic caves, because more people bother to go. More people are crafting, these sights have more life and theres more action!
Less world map, more purpose to be places. I dig it alot.
Economy is dead few days after each wipe. Really, leave it.
But did I see "interaction" between these lines? Did I see the word "players" in other meaning than PvP-apes business and brainless Tree Control? I did. I can bet my balls this is good for multiplayer game then.
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Well boss, the point is that for many people PvP means Tree Control. Unfortunately.
About the new cooldowns it works for me. Of course, this would power up the ape machinery but some people addicted to mining would make less alts. The 27 minutes for 4 high quality iron ores ... this was too much. Definitely. Just imagine that you're factionless non-pvpape guy who really wants to make his deserved Combat Armor. But how long will you have to dig to get materials? How fast will you loose your new, shiny armor?
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Well boss, the point is that for many people PvP means Tree Control. Unfortunately.
either that or pking bluesuits like a classy guy :P
About the new cooldowns it works for me. Of course, this would power up the ape machinery but some people addicted to mining would make less alts. The 27 minutes for 4 high quality iron ores ... this was too much. Definitely. Just imagine that you're factionless non-pvpape guy who really wants to make his deserved Combat Armor. But how long will you have to dig to get materials? How fast will you loose your new, shiny armor?
you are wise, I'm surprised that you managed to retain those memories after joining a faction. Most people instantly put noob years behind them and say "that was then" when noobs have a problem that they too probably had at one time.
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With the new cooldown system im able to make, beggining from zero, a Laser Pistol and 100 SEC in 15mins, and 11Throwing Knives in 5mins, and 15mins to create Leather Jacket, or 200caps to buy a simple robe, With fighting alts. Resources begin to overload my tent, base or hiding places and thats fine.
If stuffs easier to get more people will not care for get it lost... 1min to respawn, DOC plus FA, 3mins travellling to scavengin zone, or mine, 5mins to craft and you are back to the game.
It makes me dont care about lose fights or talk with strangers in the wasteland, i wish other players feel like that.
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That's exacly what is aimed for (i hope) along with alt reduction.
Keep workin', i'll keep sacrificing brahmins to GNTMWFOG!
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It makes me dont care about lose fights or talk with strangers in the wasteland, i wish other players feel like that.
Thats what I noticed too but some people will always want to have more backups, I guess you could say: Hoarders Gonna Hoard! ;)
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i reckon resources should be much rarer, more dangerous to obtain. There should be a random chance of having resources, and you cant re-enter the same area, need to move at least a bit. Should probably have a higher encounter chance the more you wander around a small area(attracting attention? or just other scavengers out to get same resources). If there wasnt so much resources around there wouldnt be like a hojjillion bbs around, and players would need to trade among themselves. Just my opinion, with no idea how hard to implement this is and with very little game experience.
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i reckon resources should be much rarer, more dangerous to obtain.
Next 'incarnation' of gathering will be having resources whose amounts are controllable, as opposed to current per-player wealth generation. I'm pretty sure it will pose its own problems, and it's not that easy to indicate what does 'dangerous' mean, but we will try to work it out over the time.
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Errr.... Can you tell us Devs how its going work on WIPE? Or just some date like from now in two months or five months and so ? 8) Thanks
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Errr.... Can you tell us Devs how its going work on WIPE? Or just some date like from now in two months or five months and so ? 8) Thanks
Can't estimate it, not yet.
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i reckon resources should be much rarer, more dangerous to obtain. There should be a random chance of having resources, and you cant re-enter the same area, need to move at least a bit. Should probably have a higher encounter chance the more you wander around a small area(attracting attention? or just other scavengers out to get same resources). If there wasnt so much resources around there wouldnt be like a hojjillion bbs around, and players would need to trade among themselves. Just my opinion, with no idea how hard to implement this is and with very little game experience.
Or make one character allowed per I.P address(Unless your spose or mate is playing with you at your house, or your having a lan party, with Fonline 2238.), it will enforce trading between players, and thus lower resource income, unless your a slaver, in which case you are, increase Ranger Patrols since the NCR is supposed to own alot of the capital wasteland. :)
Roin.
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Or make one character allowed per I.P address
Welcome to dynamic IP and proxy world, my dear. It won't work, been discussed already many times.
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Will always be a problem cause nobody like to wait and everybody like to abuse. I think the previous one was too hash and the actual one is too much. Just keep going like that and found a better balance.
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It's a Beta, right?
Why not just give everyone teleportation and item conjuration so we can "test".
Oh, also testing economy, balance, etc.
This brings a conflict- RPers and simulators/logistic strategists vs. TC/PvPers who want fancy stuff NOW so they can pew-pew.
What to do what to do?