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[avv]

People suggesting skills & stats reducing cooldowns must keep in mind it will only lead to minmaxed alts.

please, no cooldowns

I liked for example the way to get rid of spore plants with flamer. But remember, small gunners can't use flamers and the game shouldn't encourage making sporeplant killer-alts like that.
About those killable critters guarding materials: it's good idea that we'd have to fight for the mats and there's a risk and reward. However the risk and challenge should be varying and even random and so should the reward. I bet everyone just hates those ants in bh and the alien in redding mine.
"Oh not again this alien, i've killed it 258 times already"

Still I think fixed locations for mats would be funniest. I remember when players made caravan cart encounters all over the world in material locations. All players could see them and used those material sources. Sometimes you met players there and had interaction. And because they mainly came gathering they weren't armed to teeth, maybe had some low tier for quick self defense. It was no sense to camp those areas because they were so many, but player contact still happened and it was cool. Funniest thing was that the whole system was an accident, not planned feature.

[Reiniat]

Lol those guys are losing brain mass in more and more imaginative stuff.
I became bored after 3 pages so here is my point about people playing alone:

--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day
Lone players play the game from day to day, as example my typycally day in Fonline includes craft plsma or laser pistols and ammo for the desired day.

So if you are making a system to create stuff more slower, but without cooldown you will fuck up all the lone players (and alt users) in the game.

[Sarakin]

Its a MMO, loners should stop playing singleplayer and find a decent group/gang.

[avv]

--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day

Not true, I know many powergaming solo players who have ridiculous ammounts of stuff. Last wipe I was playing solo and had my base full of top tier stuff. But I was super careful and avoided other players like they were infected.

So if you are making a system to create stuff more slower, but without cooldown you will fuck up all the lone players (and alt users) in the game.

However I agree here, everyone should have a chance to get good and effective gear relatively easily and go use it without having to worry too much. If stuff is hugely rare it results in zealous hoarding and makes lots of players simply hunker in their bunkers and never show their face to the public.

Its a MMO, loners should stop playing singleplayer and find a decent group/gang.

Yes but even if someone is playing solo it doesn't mean he doesn't meet other players and interact with them. Solo players just lose items easier than gang players because there's nobody to secure their stuff. In addition they get stuff slower than gang players, so they just interact less because they spend more time in getting the items. If getting items was easier, solo players might show their face more often.

[Sarakin]

Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?

Anyway, randomness is the way. Once, it can be easy, other time, it can get really hard, what it does mean is that you cant prepare for it and moreover, it wont get so boring that fast.
Last, but not least is variability. Every player can choose his way to obtain resources, be it through scavenging, fighting or mining.

[avv]

Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?

Because like I said: solo doesn't mean singleplayer. Interacting soloists contribute to the server.
Since there is no goal, you can't say something is hard. Some players enjoy standing in ncr and being poor.
Certain players will play solo no matter what and most players will start the game that way. It's good because they learn the strings by themselves and learn to be self-sufficient, like real wastelanders.
If items are easier or funnier to get, soloists are simply seen interacting more. If items are hard to get, soloists will stay solo but will not emerge to interact.

Anyway, randomness is the way. Once, it can be easy, other time, it can get really hard, what it does mean is that you cant prepare for it and moreover, it wont get so boring that fast.
Last, but not least is variability. Every player can choose his way to obtain resources, be it through scavenging, fighting or mining.

Here I can fully agree.

[Reiniat]

If items are easier or funnier to get, soloists are simply seen interacting more. If items are hard to get, soloists will stay solo but will not emerge to interact.

i takes me everyday 8min to make a LaserPistol and 50 SEC, also it takes me around 25min to make Plasma Pistols (movilizing many alts of course), so the actual sistem is nice to me, i always visit NCR for troll, or go fight at Hinkley, or hunt random guys trough the whole wasteland, i interact a lot with other players and not only by killing them. And im soloist

Its easier for a group of players to hoard items or generaly do everything easier, we all tend to agree with that. So if anyone has the privilege to form or join a gang to have life easier, why the hell is everybody whining how hard is to play solo ? Why choosing the hard way ?

1.-It makes you feel something in your heart when you kill groups of players with a simple laser pistol.
2.- Im in a gang but i almost always be alone in the desert, i take resources from my gang base, but really too little.

Not true, I know many powergaming solo players who have ridiculous ammounts of stuff. Last wipe I was playing solo and had my base full of top tier stuff. But I was super careful and avoided other players like they were infected.

That's the point. I never have fear of lose my stuff, so i always fight even if im going to lose, that's what this game needs: people that dont cares about lose items and dont cry about get killed. We need a game full of fighters not of pussy cowards

[Wichura]

But to be precise, I was wondering if people relog because of crafting timeout (to make yet another portion of items), not for gathering.

Hammer Time by me

Part 1, HQ stuff:
- go to tent near VC, left anything except jacket and hammer there, go to Gecko mine, dig, run, log out, wait 3 minutes, log into medic alt living in this tent, grab hammer, go to Gecko mine, dig, run, wait. Loop.

Part 2, LQ stuff:
- log into miner alt #1, go to NCR mine (I have base quite close), dig, go back, unload, log out, wait, log into miner alt #2, dig, go, unload, log out, wait, repeat process for alts #3 and #4. Loop.

Part 3, crafting:
- log into main character, craft fancy clothes. Log out, wait 3 minutes, log into miner alt #whatever, he has Armorer profession level 1st, craft fancy clothes. Loop till running out of hides and skins.
- log into BG/SG crafting alt, craft fancy bullets. Log out, wait, log into SEC crafting alt, craft as hell, log out. Log into Energy Expert alt, craft, log out. I wish to perform all these actions on main character, not "toilet-like" characters - use, flush, forget.

And so the story goes. I had a screenshot somewhere, from making a miners tent near some mine. 5 miner alts and "main" character to grab what they digged.

Since crafting cooldowns were cut down, I have so much precioussss itanz I can use, that I started to afraid death of my character rather than losing items carried on him. It's not a bad way to go I guess.

--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases
-craftmore more than one or two items per day
Lone players play the game from day to day, as example my typycally day in Fonline includes craft plsma or laser pistols and ammo for the desired day.

How many loners, except yourself, do you know?

[avv]

That's the point. I never have fear of lose my stuff, so i always fight even if im going to lose, that's what this game needs: people that dont cares about lose items and dont cry about get killed. We need a game full of fighters not of pussy cowards

But the problem is: the only way soloist can get lots of gear is either cheating or being super careful. I don't think soloists suddenly change their mood to: "hehe I lost all the gear I worked my ass off for hours for the 5th time in row but least we had fun, I guess".

[Lacan]

I use relog to circumvent the gathering timer, and only to mine HQ iron ores. Crafting timers are okay for me, but it's just more efficient to relog to another char to get more HQ ore.

[Josh]

I think that there should be, as someone previously suggested, many small and specialized locations on map. Like having ore mines, mineral quarries, HQ ore mine, HQ mineral quarry a ways outside each town that would be likely to support them(ie located in mountains/rocky terrain). While other non-infinite resources would be best left to the encounter scenario to encourage roaming the wastes. Most recipes, excluding bullets, use a combination of both mined and gathered materials and would require the player to obtain both.
On the topic of alting, I noticed a majority of the people do alt but personally I have never felt the need to. Perhaps this is because I, being the older brother, made my and my brothers character. I designed my character to be a small guns user and crafter while my brother's build is more of a tank capable of using small guns but also able to fend for himself in the wastes. This has worked out nicely as I craft and mine with slave *cracks whip* while requesting, with varying levels of success, that Ben look for a particular resource in his encounters. We are the same level and have played the same amount of time because while he may gain more combat experience in his searches, I have the crafting experience to supplement the experience I earn on slave runs. I don't need alts to make stuff from other professions because I have gotten a few of my friends to play and take various professions and the rest I can buy/trade with the few nice people I have run into.

[Lordus]

AAVV: "But remember, small gunners can't use flamers and the game shouldn't encourage making sporeplant killer-alts like that."

 Look at this problem from other side. Does have the game adapt to every individual player's character, or do the player's chars adapt to game?

 In your example of smallgunner that he is not able to kill sporeplants... he have the choice: he can invest some skill points to BG skill (even little, because flame thrower dont need high skill) and then he would be able to mine (scanvege there). He needs to adopt to the game mechanism, not oposite.

 The consequence of this, is minimize of mininng (scavenging) alts. How? If you want to mine (scavenge) res (items) in every locations, you have to first create alt with enough skill points in needed skills. If i.e. one resource place needs small guns, lockpick, other big guns, doctor (to heal sporeplants poison wounds..), you are not able to create dozens of mining alts only by simple registration, you would need to level each one char to adequate level (because even more HP are needed for higher tiier mining/scavenging).

 Numerical cooldown should be replaced by "gameplay cooldown".

 This time equal to level up your mining char = kind of cooldown time, single investition, also (in my view of path is the destination) portion of fun.

 Well known current cooldowns could be eliminated and replaced by "fake cooldowns", by time you need to get adequate stuff, time needed to move to res (scav.) location, time to get thru "dungeon", time to mine (find) res. (stuff) and time to leave back to base (city). Because there should be still some threat (respawning beasts you kill, lower ammo,...), you would be limited in some way of mining.

 But i agree, that as a player, you should have more choices than one. So even you would not create special mining or scavenging alt (and please, there are a lot of people, in factions maybe majority, that think that creating, balancing and using special purpose alts for special situations is very popular part of fonline .. for the PvP, for PVE .. so this alternative is not necessary evil, as many of you thinks), you can create and balance your single alt that he would be able to get stuff he would need. Dont tell me, that your small gun char needs acces to locations with res. or parts. needed to craft energy weapons.. why?

 And even if you dont want to invest points to all needed mining (scavenging) skills, you can invest to one and barter with other players (or join factions).  And even if you dont want to barter with players, you can barter with NPCs.. Or you can PK... Or you can beg for stuff...
 
 So there is a lot of possibilities, depends on you which choice you choose (harder, easier). I disagree with idea, that solitaire players should have same game difficulty than multiplayers. This is multiplayer game, and as in real world ... just read The Wealth of Nations from Adam Smith. If you choose solitaire gameplay, you have so specialize and barter with others.

 RANDOMNES: Yes!, But! .. i think that devs forget their roles of game mechanics scripters, directors and let everything on dozen of years old game mechanism. Critters have HP and damage, players have HP and damage, who have more wins. This game has much more potential in scripting of some situations that could bring more entertatinig gameplay.
 I.e.: mining place full of ants, constantly respawning, so even with zilion ammo you cannot kill them all and mine (scav.) some resource. So what to do? Use flares, put them on ground and set up light borders, because ants are afraid of lights and until flares are burning, you are safe...

  So yes, randomnes.. i.e. in conditions, when flares would be burned (1-3 minutes), randomnes in paths or obstacles in tunnels (sometimes you would need to use dynamite,..), but not randomnes in the way, that easiest way to mine is avenger build with a lot of ammo to kill all kind of critters (because does not matter what kind of critter is randomly spawned (from rat to floater), you can everything killed by most powerfull weapons).

 Well, dont tell me, that you dont like this and you want rather counting until 5 minutes cooldown is done. :/

[avv]

Look at this problem from other side. Does have the game adapt to every individual player's character, or do the player's chars adapt to game?

In my opinion every char should have default abilities to fulfill it's basic requirements. Getting stuff is one of them. I personally don't like relogging and switching characters to do every task because it depletes the role play aspect and waiting for relog isn't fun.
In addition it doesn't hurt the gameplay if one char can do the same things as 10 alts. What's the difference? The players get access to those activities anyway with the alts, so why make him waste time levelling a char and relogging?

Instead of changing character, the char could just change gear like you described with the flares and dynamite. It shouldn't require a special alt to use either. This way all materials are possible to reach with all characters if you got the required gear.

Need to repair something - bring super tool kit instead of your repair-alt
Need to lockpick a door - bring extended lockpick instead of lockpick alt

The whole system where char does something better because of invested skillpoints works only in singleplayer because you can't bring your alts in that world. In singleplayer you make real tradeoffs.

[JovankaB]

--People playing alone NEVER, and i mean NEVER:
-have a lot of stuff in his bases

You would be surprised with bases of some solo players I had seen when I was a GM
Of course many of them double logged and so on, but it's not like gangs don't cheat.

[Reiniat]

But the problem is: the only way soloist can get lots of gear is either cheating or being super careful. I don't think soloists suddenly change their mood to: "hehe I lost all the gear I worked my ass off for hours for the 5th time in row but least we had fun, I guess".

It my first game in the present era, (being sincerously i only play like 3 times in the first era) i get killed multiple times by a PK called 28DaysAfter, i dont get mad, i actually admire the guy, "if he can do it, i can too".

So soloist must think something like "yes he kill me, i learn from my errors and i kill him next time"
One stupid patriot said sometime: "Dont get mad, Get even"

(also isnt hard to get armor and guns, with the apropiate build everything can be a murder tool, this is my think: if low stuff is really easy to get then people will not care of lose it, and we all have small scale PvP....maybe)