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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Ulterior on June 06, 2011, 04:42:33 pm
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I have one question which is already very old - when will the game developers incorporate battle balance? If we consider the sniper build equal to the large weapons build - why are they still placed in the middle of the map?
All in all, its like years going by, and nothing changes here
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"Oh, right. Combat balance, how could we forget about that?"
*presses the button which magically fixes combat balance*
"All done."
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he is right thou snipers can reallyy unbalanced they can kill you in 1 shot i mean a bger comes with a avenger and a ba (tough mofo) not for a sniper bam 1 shot that tough fucker is dead from a insta or a knock out after wipe i know they are doing anti crit stuff which am looking forward to but really they should take out insta kills perioid a guy in a ba should not be killed with 1 bullet makes no sense...... just my owe personal rage =p
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he is right thou snipers can reallyy unbalanced they can kill you in 1 shot i mean a bger comes with a avenger and a ba (tough mofo) not for a sniper bam 1 shot that tough fucker is dead from a insta or a knock out after wipe i know they are doing anti crit stuff which am looking forward to but really they should take out insta kills perioid a guy in a ba should not be killed with 1 bullet makes no sense...... just my owe personal rage =p
Did you just said that a guy with a BA and a sniper (tough mofo) can meet a bluesuit with a minigun, shoot him one time and then the bg gets close to the sniper, shoot once and kill the sniper? Because, believe it or not, that is also posiblle. Also, the snipers have the "insta kill" chance, but that is a chance, not something that happends at every shoot and is not even a "insta kill" it's a 100-130 dmg shoot with knockout, which can be followed by 4 shoots of 5-10 dmg. The 200+ dmg instants are very rare. Also bgs can use pshyco, try to fight one of those with a sniper.
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I have one question which is already very old - when will the game developers incorporate battle balance? If we consider the sniper build equal to the large weapons build - why are they still placed in the middle of the map?
All in all, its like years going by, and nothing changes here
I agree BG's should be just as effective as snipers at range and snipers should do as much damage as an avenger from 1 hex away. Just my two cents but to make this game balanced I want to be able to use my HtH guy in TC so... I don't know can you make that at sniping range when I have a ripper equipped the enemy cripple their legs from my sheer badassery?
In all seriousness don't you think it's annoying for BG guys to have to run after a sniper crippler when he spawns and the sniper is camping at the other end of the map?
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In all seriousness don't you think it's annoying for BG guys to have to run after a sniper crippler when he spawns and the sniper is camping at the other end of the map?
I have an ideea: blind all snipers. That way snipers can do what they are build for... oh, wait, THEY ARE SNIPERS!!! It seems that snipers are long range shooters...
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I have an ideea: blind all snipers. That way snipers can do what they are build for... oh, wait, THEY ARE SNIPERS!!! It seems that snipers are long range shooters...
Yes I know :-\ I was trying to make a point.
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Play sniper. Stop whining.
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Play sniper. Stop whining.
yes lets have a fonline of pure snipers thats fun because everyone wants to play a sniper ::)
Did you just said that a guy with a BA and a sniper (tough mofo) can meet a bluesuit with a minigun, shoot him one time and then the bg gets close to the sniper, shoot once and kill the sniper? Because, believe it or not, that is also posiblle. Also, the snipers have the "insta kill" chance, but that is a chance, not something that happends at every shoot and is not even a "insta kill" it's a 100-130 dmg shoot with knockout, which can be followed by 4 shoots of 5-10 dmg. The 200+ dmg instants are very rare. Also bgs can use pshyco, try to fight one of those with a sniper.
aye everything u say is true yes is possabile for a bluesuit to kill a ba guy but take hinkley for ex: like pit right from the start sniper got you in range booom down on your ass knocked out for 130 dam you have 220 hp he keeps shooting for 5-10 lucky you where knocked out face down cuz he could not get eyes or u would be dead the second u get up bam dead another shot to the eyes ..... yea so fair alll the toughness and pshyco in the world dont help much vs massive crits just saying crits are way too massive damge right now for a bger u need to run up to the guy as he is shooting at you to do instas or even 130 damge depending on if he has toughness/drugs. just saying. btw i use psycho alot does not help against crits much......
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EW cripplers are the biggest problem, at least with me. 4/5 times they shoot to eyes its either: Insta kill or 200 HP knockout knockdown bypass blah blah.
Doesn't matter if it involves a "chance" if the chances are so high it's literally fullproof 95% of the time.
Honestly, from my own experience, Snipers are "balanced", it's just their auto-aim feature that breaks the balance.
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yes thats what i mean may be a chance but i find the chance is so high its servely unblanced to insta
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as for me snipers and bgunners is both good. Depends of combat situation. Unarmed melee, throwing and energy must be ballanced. cos energy snipers will never be so good as SG, and plasma rifle will never shoot far then 24 hex, like lsw or minigun do.
unarmed and throwing i wont even talk about. but anyway even hth can easily defeat bgunner, or a thrower can kill a sniper. So i think the ballance isn't so greatly bad.
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EW cripplers are the biggest problem, at least with me. 4/5 times they shoot to eyes its either: Insta kill or 200 HP knockout knockdown bypass blah blah.
Doesn't matter if it involves a "chance" if the chances are so high it's literally fullproof 95% of the time.
Honestly, from my own experience, Snipers are "balanced", it's just their auto-aim feature that breaks the balance.
oh come on. can you just stop of be against us? we have problems too!!!! its very hard to take down guys like you using BA,252HP, with psycho, 2toughness, stonelol and running with his Avengers to shot us at one hex and chearing "oh yes die"
EW cripplers ale balanced, you are unlucky
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oh come on. can you just stop of be against us? we have problems too!!!! its very hard to take down guys like you using BA,252HP, with psycho, 2toughness, stonelol and running with his Avengers to shot us at one hex and chearing "oh yes die"
EW cripplers ale balanced, you are unlucky
Quite literally me and everyone else then... is quite unlucky ;D
Not that everyone is complaining.
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Well basically this is the issue with taking a game not designed for uber builds, and letting them go up against eachother. By the time they 'balance' this game, it's combat will be nothing like fallout, might end up like real time wow pvp fights, walk in, hit your attack button til other guy is dead. Hell right now it's so funny that a small gun pistol does so much dmg because people whined about sg'rs in pvp. Now sg's do as much as energy pistols, energy's are almost at the dmg of most rifles, and heavy guns are barely any higher. Then people cry realism in every other part of this game... WTF you expect the devs to do. A sniper bullet in the EYE is gonna be a ton more destructive than a spray of bullets in the armored chest at range, (where most may not even hit the target).
You want a realism fix for that, a helmet with a blast shield. Equipped makes per 1, but covers eyes. Oh no you don't want that kind of realism, but you wanna be able to hunt everywhere, and kill anybody especially if they're lower lvl? And yet you wonder why the people who make this game in their spare time are not only way behind, but more than a little frustrated?
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Avenger does about same damage as sniper rifle does on bypassing critical at range.
Gatling Laser does like 20 damage to armored people. This aint balanced.
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Paper tells Rock: " Scissors are overpowered not fair "
Yeah I'm against Insta kills and gauss powerbuilds , I play with a sniper and bg but when you face a gauss power build you realize ye can't compete. Little absurd when my 10 end stonewalled bg gets ko 2 times in a row( Ko while im already knocked out ) both shots are bypasses and it even blinds me. I never seen bg's as OP , I only think devs need to tune down knock out , knock down , bypass chance not introduce new perks , sure i know snipers are fragile and bg's have RL to counter snipers but still its absurd.
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Paper tells Rock: " Scissors are overpowered not fair "
Yeah I'm against Insta kills and gauss powerbuilds , I play with a sniper and bg but when you face a gauss power build you realize ye can't compete. Little absurd when my 10 end stonewalled bg gets ko 2 times in a row( Ko while im already knocked out ) both shots are bypasses and it even blinds me. I never seen bg's as OP , I only think devs need to tune down knock out , knock down , bypass chance not introduce new perks , sure i know snipers are fragile and bg's have RL to counter snipers but still its absurd.
Bypass and knock out are the only chances for a sg to win against a bg. Tune that and you only have bg in FOnline. And even that is not a sure win. I've seen too many times bypasses and knock out by a sniper and still the sniper lost, but almost never i've seen a bg scoring a critical with a mini/avenger and lose a battle. And that is balanced, bg scoring a crit is not as often as sg scoring one. Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.
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Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.
Hum, what? Againt a good crippler, a BG have absolutely 0 chance in TB. Crippler have more PE, which mean more sequence and range, enough AP to shot 2 times in the arm per trurn at long range and 3 at short, which mean at least a weapon drop and with a bit of luck cripple, and like you can't doc and TB, you win the battle.
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I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB.
Crazy, he probably is thinking about some tb hybrid with SG and BG skill. If one hand crippled he shot by p90 or something.
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stop all of you complaining!!!!!!!
My head hurts only by reding this topic!
also i can agree on 2 thigs:
BGners are good in close combat, they ravage the wasteland with there hige rotationg barrels and big rocket launchers, but all there guns are 2 handed, so they are vurnareble to cripelers
on the other hand there are the snipers, ultra long range reach and the high critical chance are usualy build weak, so if you can get close to them there are dead, so to counter them you need to sneak near them, so Sneaky burst build are there vurnareble point
Now Sneaky Burters, they are quite... invisible and alsoa veary weak, a small nade or explosive will deal with them in one shot! so they are extreamly vurareble to Biggunners that will more likely not die in 1 burst and after the sneaker shoots the BGner will be able to share the sneaker to tiny pieces
there you go, Rock paper scissors FOnline combat version!
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LagMaster, what you say is based on pure theory and concept and, what is worse, does not include all the different combat "classes": you don't only have Big Gun Bursters, Small Gun Snipers, and "Burst" (SG or BG?) Sneakers - there are also P90c Bursters, Laser Snipers, Plasma Tanks, Rocketeers, etc. Oh and also Knives Throwers! remember them? ("WTF N3RF KNIFS!1!")
However, I do believe that most of the whine about combat balance is inspired by big gunners who simply got their arm crippled by a sniper before they could burst him to oblivion.
If we talk about balance, I am afraid that if anti-crit stuff for armors and things like that get implemented, damage based builds will actually dominate, while crit based builds will become rather useless.
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Bypass and knock out are the only chances for a sg to win against a bg. Tune that and you only have bg in FOnline. And even that is not a sure win. I've seen too many times bypasses and knock out by a sniper and still the sniper lost, but almost never i've seen a bg scoring a critical with a mini/avenger and lose a battle. And that is balanced, bg scoring a crit is not as often as sg scoring one. Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.
Well bypasses and knockouts occur at the same time too often , that it should be tuned down. Sniper can be very unreliable in combat and usually are because the bypasses , knockouts , knockdowns are random based on a chance , well maybe the solution would be just to tune down the chances and increase raw damage on normal crits. Sniper would be more reliable - balanced , people would not whine about instas , constant bypasses and knockouts yet still the sniper will do decent in combat. Maybe im wrong but I still think anti-crit perks are unnecessary.
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Hum, what? Againt a good crippler, a BG have absolutely 0 chance in TB. Crippler have more PE, which mean more sequence and range, enough AP to shot 2 times in the arm per trurn at long range and 3 at short, which mean at least a weapon drop and with a bit of luck cripple, and like you can't doc and TB, you win the battle.
18 AP, 23 sequence, 8 PE, bg/burster build. Shoot 2 times, reload and cover against a crippler that has lower AP, lower sequence, lower HP and most of the times same or lower PE. Learn the builds before you comment, I thought you have a better ideea about this game but it seems not. 3 shoots at arms a crippler? Do you even have any ideea how crippler build looks? I supose that a guy with 20-25% crit chance is a crippler for you... Good luck with those cripplers, a build like that can be killed even by a RT BG easilly, in turn base.
Crazy, he probably is thinking about some tb hybrid with SG and BG skill. If one hand crippled he shot by p90 or something.
I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons.
Yes, exaclly. I think I was pretty clear about that.
LagMaster: go back at tribal builds, please. You have just told us what any guy that didn't even played FOnline could of told us.
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18 AP, 23 sequence, 8 PE, bg/burster build. Shoot 2 times, reload and cover against a crippler that has lower AP, lower sequence, lower HP and most of the times same or lower PE. Learn the builds before you comment, I thought you have a better ideea about this game but it seems not. 3 shoots at arms a crippler? Do you even have any ideea how crippler build looks? I supose that a guy with 20-25% crit chance is a crippler for you... Good luck with those cripplers, a build like that can be killed even by a RT BG easilly, in turn base.
Wait, did you seriously wasted one perk on earlier sequence?
And seriously, it's you who don't know anything about crippler powerbuild. A good one will shot two times in arm with a sniper rifle, 3 times with a 14mm (or any pistol except .223) with 25% crit chance (which means 55% crit chance in arms). Big Guns and energies have serious trouble with cripplers, RT or TB. Of course with P90 it's different, but it lack range, and in a town you will be slaughtered at long range.
Yes, exaclly. I think I was pretty clear about that.
Hum, for me a BG burster is a minigunner, so I didn't understood it in a first place. In that case sure (though there is still the possibility to have both arms crippled and/or being blinded).
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Wait, did you seriously wasted one perk on earlier sequence?
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He wasted two perks.
18 AP, 23 sequence, 8 PE, bg/burster build. Shoot 2 times, reload and cover against a crippler that has lower AP, lower sequence, lower HP and most of the times same or lower PE.
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Nice build for TB campers indeed, but it's totally useless in RT. Personally I couldn't play it because 98% of my game time is in RT.
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He wasted two perks.
No, I think he took kamikaze. It's still awful though. My game time is at 99.9% in RT ;p
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Wait, did you seriously wasted one perk on earlier sequence?
High sequence in TB means that if you meet a guy and shoot first, you will shoot him 3 times in total before he even shoots you once and that is, in 90% cases, a victory. If he shoots first and he is a sniper, you shoot 2 times after and that is also in 90% of cases a victory. That combined with 14 AP to shoot/reload and 4 AP to move is pretty good.
But i will take your word for it, BG have no chance against cripplers in TB.
My game time is at 99.9% in RT ;p
My game time is 50-50% so I have a really hard time trying to understand why would a guy that plays 99% in RT tells me about TB builds and even tryes to show me wrong when he doesn't even had an ideea about how the game works in TB. Except in the case, of course, that he is trolling, and that is exaclly what you do now.
but it's totally useless in RT
Totally agree with you, but we were talking about TB and I gave the best example that suited the discussion.
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Bypass and knock out are the only chances for a sg to win against a bg. Tune that and you only have bg in FOnline. And even that is not a sure win. I've seen too many times bypasses and knock out by a sniper and still the sniper lost, but almost never i've seen a bg scoring a critical with a mini/avenger and lose a battle. And that is balanced, bg scoring a crit is not as often as sg scoring one. Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.
This.
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Well bypasses and knockouts occur at the same time too often , that it should be tuned down. Sniper can be very unreliable in combat and usually are because the bypasses , knockouts , knockdowns are random based on a chance , well maybe the solution would be just to tune down the chances and increase raw damage on normal crits. Sniper would be more reliable - balanced , people would not whine about instas , constant bypasses and knockouts yet still the sniper will do decent in combat. Maybe im wrong but I still think anti-crit perks are unnecessary.
God you read my mind.
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My game time is 50-50% so I have a really hard time trying to understand why would a guy that plays 99% in RT tells me about TB builds and even tryes to show me wrong when he doesn't even had an ideea about how the game works in TB. Except in the case, of course, that he is trolling, and that is exaclly what you do now.
This topic was about general (un)balance, not about TB balance, sorry to reply to the whole topic instead of talking about your TB builds.
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stop all of you complaining!!!!!!!
My head hurts only by reding this topic!
I AGREE, WE ALL MUST SHUT UP!!!!!
speak about the balance of the game will never solve anything
this topic must be completely obliterated and mods must close any discussion that tends to this arguments
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Hum, what? Againt a good crippler, a BG have absolutely 0 chance in TB. Crippler have more PE, which mean more sequence and range, enough AP to shot 2 times in the arm per trurn at long range and 3 at short, which mean at least a weapon drop and with a bit of luck cripple, and like you can't doc and TB, you win the battle.
This topic was about general (un)balance, not about TB balance, sorry to reply to the whole topic instead of talking about your TB builds.
Are you kidding me or you really are retarded?
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Are you kidding me or you really are retarded?
Tell me, are you blind to quote the wrong post, or are you retarded?
And seriously, it's you who don't know anything about crippler powerbuild. A good one will shot two times in arm with a sniper rifle, 3 times with a 14mm (or any pistol except .223) with 25% crit chance (which means 55% crit chance in arms). Big Guns and energies have serious trouble with cripplers, RT or TB. Of course with P90 it's different, but it lack range, and in a town you will be slaughtered at long range.
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Well basically this is the issue with taking a game not designed for uber builds, and letting them go up against eachother. By the time they 'balance' this game, it's combat will be nothing like fallout, might end up like real time wow pvp fights, walk in, hit your attack button til other guy is dead. Hell right now it's so funny that a small gun pistol does so much dmg because people whined about sg'rs in pvp. Now sg's do as much as energy pistols, energy's are almost at the dmg of most rifles, and heavy guns are barely any higher. Then people cry realism in every other part of this game... WTF you expect the devs to do. A sniper bullet in the EYE is gonna be a ton more destructive than a spray of bullets in the armored chest at range, (where most may not even hit the target).
Hence why this game should emphasize other factors of battle instead of the battle itself.
For example: TC
1. Some quests could require materials and affect static defenses like barricades, cover, etc.
2. Quests would involve finding suitable fighters and ways of obtaining their srvices.
3. Militia armament requires upkeep and questing decides what they are armed with.
Conditions for victory would be calculated by statistical analysis in regards to combined factors of 1-3.
Sure combat would be a far cry (no pun intended), from being fps action type twitch fighting. However, this would provide balance and elinminate the attrition type style war that currently exists.
PVP combat will be handled by the already wasteland is harsh random encounters but also combat oriented "battlegrounds". Maps will contain "positions", for diffferent combat builds. Snipers will deal with other snipers. BG tankers will advance assaults and deal with other their counterparts, defenders of the line. Small gunners will provide rear-guard defense against spys, HtH, and other small gunner builds.
Never did like RT combat as it was never intended for a game like Fallout.
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look, by BGners i mean tanks taht are good at close range like:plasma tanks, p90 tanks, trowing knife tanks...
and by Snipers i am refering to EW snipers too and weak launchers
and the sneaker bursters i mean all the builds that use sneak and do a shitload of dmg
and after wipe i wanna make a BG tank with trow as secondary skill(like Sanford im Madness combat without melle)
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EW cripplers are the biggest problem, at least with me. 4/5 times they shoot to eyes its either: Insta kill or 200 HP knockout knockdown bypass blah blah.
Doesn't matter if it involves a "chance" if the chances are so high it's literally fullproof 95% of the time.
Honestly, from my own experience, Snipers are "balanced", it's just their auto-aim feature that breaks the balance.
I tend to agree with this, though the problem I believe is more in the crit table/chances than with the actual balancing of the weapons. ALSO, as Mich pointed out: the auto-aim that was introduced severely tipped shit in their favor. Just group snipers en masse with cheap crap and now they can all one-click arm/leg/eye shot anything they even get a glimspse of. Its rather similar to the insta-hording of merc/slaves when you think about it: alpha-strike rush (Alpha strike is what you can do in a single turn/AP charge) which tends to be overkill in TB and with the auto-aim, fucks up RT now in snipers favor.
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Maybe snipers should not be able to make two shots in a row, like in real life.
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There is no such thing as a sniper who has two shots in a row. I know only one pure double shot sniper (14 AP) from TC but with very low hp. Nobody else uses this kind of sniper, from what I've seen, 13 AP sniper is pretty rare, too. Nowadays the most of the snipers have 11 or 12 AP, which is not the problem, still you have to wait a while for your second shot.
When we talk about energy class, of course you can have double shot build, but with low crit. chance compared to snipers. I don't mind plasma tanks doing damage over 200 hp, because they are supposed to be deadly at close distance. Keep in mind snipers can always kill plasma build at larger distance.
Honestly even in auto aim feature I can't see any problem. Every aiming build can use it and don't tell me it's imba in relation to big gunners. Rockets do 50-90 damage and they haven't had to aim ever. In times when scope was in use it was almost one click, so this step is just more comfortable for everyone, nothing changed.
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There is no such thing as a sniper who has two shots in a row. I know only one pure double shot sniper (14 AP) from TC but with very low hp. Nobody else uses this kind of sniper, from what I've seen, 13 AP sniper is pretty rare, too. Nowadays the most of the snipers have 11 or 12 AP, which is not the problem, still you have to wait a while for your second shot.
Regen is fast enough it is pretty much a double shot. :P
When we talk about energy class, of course you can have double shot build, but with low crit. chance compared to snipers. I don't mind plasma tanks doing damage over 200 hp, because they are supposed to be deadly at close distance. Keep in mind snipers can always kill plasma build at larger distance.
Insta kills at 25 Hex? (don't try to tell me it isn't!! :P) Along with 2-3 shots in a row? :-\
Honestly even in auto aim feature I can't see any problem. Every aiming build can use it and don't tell me it's imba in relation to big gunners. Rockets do 50-90 damage and they haven't had to aim ever. In times when scope was in use it was almost one click, so this step is just more comfortable for everyone, nothing changed.
Rockets don't knock you out, (They CAN but only 1% of the time, I have only seen it happen once in my lifetime) Rockets don't have as much range, rockets cannot cripple, rockets cannot insta kill (That i know of, depends on who they're shooting I guess) and finally, rockets take 10 AP just for one shot and to reload. whereas snipers it's only 8-9 AP to aim to the eyes and reloading is not required till 6 (or 12 if it's EW) are off.
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Rockets don't knock you out, (They CAN but only 1% of the time, I have only seen it happen once in my lifetime) Rockets don't have as much range, rockets cannot cripple.
Yes, and ? Rocket launcher have 40hex, knock down at each shoot, touch a group of players, its a really good weapon, and you can easily do a build with 2 shoot in a row.
Like usualy EW are the biggest problem of the game, WTF guys, a plasma tank can shoot only at 24hex, so alone against a sniper or a BG RL most of the time he die before shoot one time... A laser " sniper " most of the time to do a good damage have to bypass, but for the sniper its the same, so what ?
The solution is nerf sniper and EW, and let the BG be the king of the wasteland ?
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I dont get why you are talking about current balance if after incoming wipe whole pvp system would be different. Chillout girls.
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Regen is fast enough it is pretty much a double shot. :P
I don't know how many snipers you have (I have 6 in total) but believe me, every AP makes a huge difference. For example when you shoot the first shot you need the second one to prevent enemy energy laser guy get to his range. You won't make it with lack of 2 action points. Only exception is a gauss build, we all know it's maybe the strongest build in this game.
Insta kills at 25 Hex? (don't try to tell me it isn't!! :P) Along with 2-3 shots in a row?
yeah and...? They are simply that strong at 24 hexes. But they are also very expensive to equipe, you need CA or BA, plasma rifle, set of drugs including buffout and psycho... their weak side remains a range, they still can be killed by lsw build who has two bursts at 35 hexes.
:-\Rockets don't knock you out
but they knock you down every time, so? Even stonewall won't help you.
The solution is nerf sniper and EW, and let the BG be the king of the wasteland ?
exactly, we had this before, immortal bg tank who can be killed only by another bg tank.
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...we had this before, immortal bg tank who can be killed only by another bg tank.
That is not true... I had tank like that and psycho plasma tank was better ;)
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Did you wear Tesla armor? :)
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It will not help you. Bypass, bypass, bypass.. i dont trust tesla and i will not trust enclave armor ;)
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you know something? fuck the combat, why we need to fight? can't we just make bases so we can live with ech others peacefully? can't we build more tents with 1 char so we can have friends in our tents and build a small city of tents, or better, have the option to add someone to the tent so he can see him(like adding a billboard where you can add to friend/enemy list to your tent, or in the pip-boy add friends or foes)
but no, you must come andcomplain with your power builds that do not do as much damage as they whant to("i whant spears to kill in 2-3 hits") asnd so do on, with the zerlings and rushes and PK traps and so do on
well, my point is anyway that non combat builds are imba too, melle/HtH are imba too, everything is imba, but why you complain when you whant to do something?
now i will try to create when i will have some spare time some "balance" features in the weapon sistem, if devs wanna look at it and modify/implement it i ask them, let's make this game more plesant
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Rockets don't knock you out,
Ofcourse they can, but we're not seeing finesse rocket builds.. However point is that splash and direct damage knocks people down without any help from perks ( and it even moves people ). This is by the far the best weapon in the game (for if it was not, who would put it to his or her mercs for use?)
and finally, rockets take 10 AP just for one shot and to reload
To be precise you get 6AP per shot with a BROF, wearing 2 of those you can easily fire two rockets in a "turn". Having just one ammo is the only in-combat disadvantage of the weapon (with ofcourse splash damage hurting you when used point blank, but it's long range weapon). I think the weapon is more offset by logistical disadvantage as expensive ammo ( you get "tube" everywhere, but better rockets are valuable )
whereas snipers it's only 8-9 AP to aim to the eyes and reloading is not required till 6 (or 12 if it's EW)
Sniper rifle has 1 AP penalty compared to other rifles (was like that even in original Fallout), so you need 7AP to aim for eyes with BROF, making it quite demanding. However with range like that it's reasonable for it's users.
Rocket launchers get screwed only at battlefields with long range and choking points, such as Klamath. However this is true for EW as well, because they cannot shoot other snipers even when range difference is that small.
It will not help you. Bypass, bypass, bypass
If we see any less bypasses, people might just quit some builds for good. Announced 5% resist nerfs will not make for any steady damage for laser weaponry, and tesla will own plasma (though since that's completly specific to tesla it could've be quite reasonable). If you don't like your armor bypassed, then it'd make sense if it was not that much to bypass. Considering you can get even up 50% for normal resistance (and much more for other damage types), basic hits tend now to do very low damage.
This is more of balancing stats on critters and guns and keeping game consistent with original Fallout. I guess it'd be much easier to completly reitemize it and make bypass something special. Ofcourse it'd be quite different game...
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I have a rocket crit character I'm going to experiment with, but the sneak requirement to make it work relegates it to an expensive (in terms of leveling time) concept test.
With more and better crits, ghost, 2 levels of Action Boy...
Still will only crit 1/3 or so of the time.
So it is a bluesuit build with 2 launchers and limited ammo- really just there to harass.
Better to make a sneak merc leader and have rocket/sniper/minigun mercs that take orders from a hidden leader.
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Rockets don't knock you out, (They CAN but only 1% of the time, I have only seen it happen once in my lifetime)
Ofc it does. I'm pretty sure, you don't have BG with Better Critical. With that perk it happens quite often.
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99% of you didnt understood what I have said.
I say that snipers should be placed in the map edges while entering the scene!!
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Bypass and knock out are the only chances for a sg to win against a bg. Tune that and you only have bg in FOnline. And even that is not a sure win. I've seen too many times bypasses and knock out by a sniper and still the sniper lost, but almost never i've seen a bg scoring a critical with a mini/avenger and lose a battle. And that is balanced, bg scoring a crit is not as often as sg scoring one. Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.
That's is right to the point
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In my opinion, "combat balance" is not really possible in FOnline.
The most important problem that shows up when we talk about balancing "combat", is what we actually mean when we use that word. FOnline features both real time and turn based modes and each combat mode has its own characteristics. And there is also the difference between PvP and PvE (which in this game are not always separated, as there are slaves and mercs).
2238 also has Town Control, which could be considered some sort of subcategory inside real time (TC is not necessarily the same as real time combat in a random enc, or a skirmish between very small groups, etc.) but even when it is only one of the combat possibilities, TC has become "the" model of combat in 2238, probably because it's the main way for pr0s to show their might. And weapons used in TC are considered "the" weapons of the game.
"Combat" cannot be balanced (this is, make it work perfectly in every kind of combat situation), it can only be made better for a specific kind of combat. If TC is balanced, some people might still whine because build A pwns build B in turn based. Same goes for weapons, Sniper Rifle and Avenger might be balanced but we still have a lot of others weapons that have become marginal.
Tl;dr version here. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=16652.msg138526#msg138526)
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"Perfect balance" is impossible. Even big developer studios still twitch and twirl the mechanics on their mmos and are far from being balanced. You're asking for too much here.
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I think this is pretty much an argument against power gaming/alting rather than lifegiver itself and in my opinion you are absolutely right. Skilled or balanced characters as I would call them have no place alongside 'low intelligent tank builds' or power gamers.
It would be great to wander across the wasteland and find a guy who's a mechanic and pretty damn nifty with a rifle, or a slaver with a fetish for blades. Rather than 150 down syndrome burns victims with an acrobat's agility. However this will never happen and is only possible within the realms of RP.
it could happen, the game just needs to necessitate it. I like the suggestion about making water intake necessary in order to travel. If characters want to go anywhere without a car they will need to be able to find water in the waste which will require a certain level of outdoorsman slanting the scale a bit more towards skilled. If they choose to use a car instead they will need to be able to use a toolkit, especially if driving had risks such as critical car failures.
I think once the game becomes more balanced so will the characters, but I see lifegiver as one of the most unbalancing factors in the game (probably right after the current state of the critical system) mainly because it creates such a huge gap between chars that have it and chars that don't...
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There is no way to perfect balance, but it is possible to make a balance.
For me, crits are too much random, sure that, for sustained dmg there is burst, but from 0 dmg to instant kill is too randomized rotfl.
For avenger vs BA
min dmg: 71, max: 97
typical pvp char have near 220 hp (lifegiver x2 + 8 en)
it takes from 3 to 4 bursts to kill
if it takes 4 sec to regen ap from 0 to max (say 12 AP), so 1 ap; 1 sec = 3 ap
with brof you need 18 ap to shoot 3 times = 12+6/3 = animation time * 3 + 2 sec to regen ap
For Sniper Rifle vs BA
if u take max crit build, 85% crit for eyes, better critical, it's
5% to miss
95% * 0.15 = 14% for non critical strike dealing 5-21 dmg
95% * 0.85 * 0.25 = 20% for dmg x 2, dmg: 28-68
95% * 0.85 * 0.25 = 20% for dmg x 3, dmg: 42-102
95% * 0.85 * 0.2 = 16% for dmg x 3, dmg: 42-102
95% * 0.85 * 0.1 = 8% for dmg x4 dmg: 56-136
95% * 0.85 * 0.2 = 16% that shot will be instant death (let's say its 220 dmg)
for 100 shots, 16 of them is 220 dmg, 8 of them are 56-136 dmg etc, so:
(14*((5+21)/2)) + (20*((28+68)/2)) + (20*((42+102)/2)) + (16*((42+102)/2)) + (8*((56+136)/2)) + (16*220) = 182 + 960 + 1440 + 1152 + 768 + 3520 = 8022 dmg from 100 bullets = average 80 dmg per bullet = 3 shots to kill
and now harder, i take sniper with 10 ap and without brof
1 shot = 8 ap
regeneration: 10:4 = 1 sec is 2.5 AP
3 shots = 24 ap
24 - 10 = 14 : 2.5 = animation time * 3 + 5.6 seconds
maths are correct IF
a) crit table is correct http://images47.fotosik.pl/870/de425613d8ab9ab8gen.jpg (i know it's not but seems to be close)
b) criticals ignores targets DT and DR
c) your target is average pvp guy with 220 hp, brotherhood armor and no thoughness
i know that maths can't be precission, but it's good base to start with balance
Bursters need one, damn feature: number of bullets depending on range, there is no difference between minigun from 30 and from 2 hexes, that's horrible
Good way is from Fallout: Tactics, rifles have are more focused than miniguns, if you stay closer = more dmg, it's more realistic, and more fun, request more iq and skills to play, you need to think about rushing or standing at maximum range
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Dont forget about "SKILLL" which cant be balanced.
Skilled player in LJ with M60 will easly kill noob guy with top equipment.
Perfect balance does not exist.
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Dont forget about "SKILLL" which cant be balanced.
Skilled player in LJ with M60 will easly kille noob guy with top equipment.
Perfect balance does not exist.
Ofcourse skill can't be balanced and it's good. Otherwise we would always end up in draw. But the mechanics can and should be as close to balance. Balanced mechanics create smooth and enjoyable gameplay.
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Balance is:
Char A can kill Char B, but cannot char C and D
Char B can kill Char C, but cannot char D and A
Char C can kill Char D, but cannot char A and B
Char D can kill Char A, but cannot char B and C
But more balanced is:
Char A can kill Char B and C, but cannot Char D
Char B can kill Char C and D, but cannot Char A
Char C can kill Char D and A, but cannot Char B
Char D can kill Char A and B, but cannot Char C
But more balanced is: (i think thats a point)
Char A can kill Char B and C and have a chance with Char D
Char B can kill Char C and D and have a chance with Char A
Char C can kill Char D and A and have a chance with Char B
Char D can kill Char A and B and have a chance with Char C
And most balanced is: (IMPOSSIBLE)
Char A can kill Char B and Char C and Char D
Char B can kill Char C and Char D and Char A
Char C can kill Char D and Char A and Char B
Char D can kill Char A and Char B and Char C
Example, take a Big Gunner for A, Energy Sniper for B, SG Burster for C and SG Sniper for D.
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Bursters need one, damn feature: number of bullets depending on range, there is no difference between minigun from 30 and from 2 hexes, that's horrible
Good way is from Fallout: Tactics, rifles have are more focused than miniguns, if you stay closer = more dmg, it's more realistic, and more fun, request more iq and skills to play, you need to think about rushing or standing at maximum range
Yeah Tactics bursts were wonderful (though spread damage was a bit bugged and ignoring covers, atleast in unpatched version). It really looked like characters were using smg or assault rifle and not some sort of minigun tearing others to pieces (=Fallout 1h bursts)
http://images47.fotosik.pl/870/de425613d8ab9ab8gen.jpg
Those are not correct (they're from SP Fallout), if they were every single critical in eyes with better criticals would be bypassing, which is definetly not the case.
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But it's a question if you can spend enough money to balance a game. Look at developers of BF with their big fancy studios and project teams. This is proper balance:
http://saucepls.info/A/fd/balance.PNG
http://saucepls.info/A/02/balance2.PNG
Actually there was a thread once upon a time on EA forums pre R9 patch where some number of people said they would not buy another Battlefield product if BC2 M60 wasn't nerfed.