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[Solar]

Uh no thanks. Heavy handed has shown us where stunning and knockdowning attacks take us - to the trollzone! It should be a rule of thumb to never take control off from players. They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments. It works against npcs and is fun because npcs swarm you and you need to dismobilize them. But npcs don't have feelings so they can be threated as you want.

I mean the one that stopped at 0 HP.

Ammo effects are pretty limited, without everything being reworked.

[Crazy]

Well, if there were just a flechette ammo with -20%DR or -10%DR mod and AP perk, combined with an auto knockdown on burst (or roll against EN-5, or maybe only on stonewall target), I think it would become a very good weapon for building assault. It would pack a lot of punch and the bonus KD would be useful without being OP, but on another hand it still have shitty range.

[ThePhoenix77]

In case anyone is interested in how some actual shotguns rounds work. Flachette, Buck and Ball rounds, Bolo rounds, Rhodesian jungle rounds, Arrow round (home-made), Dragons breath rounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=RP4FjODPDFA

[Brooce]

I have a suggestion. If a support perk is the way we are choosing to go. I think there should be the DT perk Jovanka is talking about, but how about this:

Shotgun Surgeon
Requirements: Small Guns 150, Doctor 100
Bonus: Aimed shots with a shotgun are significantly more likely to cripple limbs.

This gives the shotgun a different role than an smg, which is what I feel we are trying to do here. Now instead of being just another high damage mid range weapon, the shotgun becomes a counter to big guns and snipers.

I could see myself creating a 2 aimed shot shotgun build, (with jet or 2 action boys obviously) for the sole purpose of countering BGs and Snipers in PvP.

Imagine it, people are fighting in town for TC or whatever, they turn a corner or enter a building and BOOM you cripple their right arm. Guess whose not using their weapon any more? With two aimed shots you can double tap, BOOM BOOM, eye damage and crippled right arm. Did you kill the player with those aimed shots? Probably not, but you have rendered them useless. Making the shotgun a type of utility weapon for crowd control.

I know what you may be thinking, "well this just sounds like a mid range sniper." So make it so that the perk doesn't rely on crits. This way it doesn't have to be another 10 luck, more critical, even more critical build. Giving the player much more versatility in what perks they want.

*edit in name and reqs.

[JovankaB]

Surgical Shotgun Precision
Requirements: Small Guns 200, Doctor 150

That's far, far too big requirements. You don't need 200 SG with any shotgun and Doctor 150 is a lot even for pure doctor character.

I would suggest Small guns 150% (maybe even less) and Repair 100% + doing some shotgun-related quest for flavor.
"You know everything about shotguns, you can shoot faster with them -1AP", terrible description, but something like that
or Higher chance to cripple it's interesting too.

[Brooce]

That's far, far too big requirements. You don't need 200 SG with any shotgun and Doctor 150 is a lot even for pure doctor character.

I would suggest Small guns 150% (maybe even less) and Repair 100% + doing some shotgun-related quest for flavor.
"You know everything about shotguns, you can shoot faster with them -1AP", terrible description, but something like that
or Higher chance to cripple it's interesting too.

Yeah the reqs were a bit ridiculous, I have edited them. Maybe the perk could say:
"Your skill with the shotgun and your knowledge of human anatomy allows you to target pressure points and break them."

[Reconite]

Half the work is already done for a perk like this.

[Solar]

Any perk to do with combat is not going to be a support perk, it'll be a normal perk.

Extra chances to cripple, well, its kind of stepping on the toes of the Melee weapon effects I was planning, but I suppose it could work if they occurred at a reduced rate with respect to them.

[Nexxos]

The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).

[yoz]

Although the damage is decent, it doesn't compensates for the severely limited range enough to make it a useful weapon. Doing the same damage at 1 hex as at maximum range doesn't help either. Most people that use high end shotguns I think do it only for a goof and only against npcs.

I would like it if the bursts cause knock downs. If they only caused knockbacks that cost no AP that would have no effect in tb combat.

[Reconite]

and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).

This really needs to be standard for every weapon. Fallout Tactics used a system where if you did an unaimed shot at an enemy it could hit a random body part, including the eyes and groin. If you spray a burst with a minigun and hit your 14/14 bullets in your random bullshit cone, not all of them will hit the torso, they will go all over the enemy.

Hell, just carry over everything Fallout Tactics did in the multiplayer department minus Browning M2 and Gauss Miniguns (ok, also perks like Psychotic and Steady Arm). There, a working pvp system tried and true.

[Reiniat]

What kind of characteristics can ammo have?
Can it increase crit chance?
Can it increase range?
Can it increase cripple rate in crits?
Can it make attacks cost less or more ap?
Can it change the attack type of weapon?
Can it bypass or reduce armor from certain range?

It would help to have lots of characteristics in ammo, would allow variety.

Maybe not too far, maybe just explosive ammo, wich causes explosive damage rendering Toughness useless against it. I hate to hear about flechettes, slugs, etc. we need surrealistic stuff for a Fallout based game, we need explosive, conmotion, warp, void, EMP, magnetic or incendiary ammo (please no dragons breath)

They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments.

Thats the gold rule of any multiplayer game ever invented, with the exception of Bioshock 2, but that game have a different system based in low damage for guns and big mobility for players.

The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the torso).

NO, i prefer actual system that more odds or knockback effects.

Although the damage is decent, it doesn't compensates for the severely limited range enough to make it a useful weapon. Doing the same damage at 1 hex as at maximum range doesn't help either. Most people that use high end shotguns I think do it only for a goof and only against npcs.

The way it should work is making shotguns make more damage at, lets say 12 hex than other Burst guns, and keep it doing same damage at all ranges

[Killy]

The only thing what (bigger, bursting) shotguns need, is a knockback effect added to every burst (same way as slapping, no AP negated, but you need to raise up again), and possibly a small chance of crippling limbs with bursts (scatter damage doesn't only hit you in the tors).

gr8 idea, nothing more is needed, btw why the dmg is always the same? 1 hex burst should have been stronger

[Crazy]

gr8 idea, nothing more is needed, btw why the dmg is always the same? 1 hex burst should have been stronger

Shotguns burst have no spread, that's why.

[Sarakin]

Shotguns having KD effect is way to go, works on F:B. To prevent trolling issues, dont make it 100% reliable.