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[Smalltime]

So basically, the Pancor is not a viable PvP weapon, and is essentially an expensive and rare grinding tool, which is silly.

Really, if shotguns had some kind of armor piercing ammo, this would be solved. Slugs and Flechettes would be ideal.

Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.

We have however seen plenty removed.
It is much easier to simply remove content from the game, than balance it.

[JovankaB]

I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.

If it was connected to crafting somehow (like professions or non-combat skills requirement) then shotguns
could be "crafter weapon", maybe even something that would give them much more chance against
pure PvP builds or in encounters.

[Brooce]

I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.

If it was connected to crafting somehow (like BP or professions requirement) then shotguns could be "crafter weapon",
maybe even something that would give them much more chance against pure PvP builds or in encounters.

So the only way to make the shotgun viable, is to make it yourself? I mean a support perk is ehhhhh better than nothing, but its a round about way to try and solve a simple problem.

[Smalltime]

I was thinking about Support Perk not standard perk.

If it was connected to crafting somehow (like BP or professions requirement) then shotguns could be "crafter weapon",
maybe even something that would give them much more chance against pure PvP builds or in encounters.

Shotguns are some of the most versatile weapons in the entire world. This is not reflected here, and they really aren't "crafter" weapons.
And you should know better than to expect a crafter to have a chance against a pure PvP build.

[Solar]

OH so when you factor in normal resistance, the weapon which has no pierce and ammo with no AP mod, DOES LESS DAMAGE. My god, its almost as if this is what everyone has been saying the entire time. This is the sole reason why shotguns are broken, and why everyone has been begging for change. I wont wait for an apology tho....

This would be true if every target was using Psycho (they aren't) and Beer (they aren't) and had both ranks of toughness (a lot do, all don't).

Even with both toughness perks the Avenger is exceeding it by 42%, Minigun by 25%, p90c by 14% and the 10mm and AR are about 15% down. This does not make it useless.

It is still the top of the non AP ammo, which means with a perk that stops DT being reduced it would be *the* best weapon against them

Lets have a look at what you actually said

Which is to say it does less than 60 damage to a player with combat armor. This is with BRD1, BRD2, and MRD, each with small guns 200+. The combat armor wasn't even 100%.

and then look at what actually happened with only 2 BRD

23:10:10 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:15 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:10:19 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:10:24 • JovankaB was hit for 82 hit points.
23:10:29 • JovankaB was critically hit for 168 hit points.
23:10:34 • JovankaB was critically hit for 191 hit points.
23:10:38 • JovankaB was critically hit for 201 hit points.
23:10:43 • JovankaB was critically hit for 207 hit points.
23:10:47 • JovankaB was hit for 66 hit points.
23:10:53 • JovankaB was critically hit for 204 hit points.
23:10:57 • JovankaB was critically hit for 209 hit points.
23:11:02 • JovankaB was hit for 77 hit points.
23:11:07 • JovankaB was hit for 73 hit points.
23:11:11 • JovankaB was critically hit for 267 hit points.
23:11:16 • JovankaB was critically hit for 160 hit points.
23:11:20 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:25 • JovankaB was hit for 78 hit points.
23:11:30 • JovankaB was hit for 84 hit points.

You were just wrong. End of story.

Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.

Apart from this being just obviously ridiculous, the .22 is new.

They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.

I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.

[Brooce]

You're right, I hadn't taken into account that both characters had toughness. Which is one of the most comon perks used in the game. This explains the lower damage on our bursts.

I know you are trying your hardest to make the game nearly unplayable and making drugs and high tier items nearly unobtainable (requiring non-existant mats LOL) but give the player base a little more credit than that.

We have survived your lag spikes, your attacks by "friendly" or "neutral" NPCs. We survive the radiation that really only seems to serve the purpose of trolling players who have the misfortune of lagging into a centuar/alien encounter.

Simply put, the players that are still playing are survivors. Us that post on the forums are more so. We deserve respect in that manner. If there is a way to optimize a build, be it with drugs or what have you. We have discovered it, and in spite of your constant efforts, have found a way to make it work.

So when you say we don't use beer/jet/psycho/buffout well then you are wrong. If you are not balancing this game for those who know how to play it, then you are wrong.

If the shotgun is only intended to be used as a PvE type weapon then just say it. I personally think the Pancor Jackhammer is an awesome weapon, and would love to see it put to better use. If that is not what you want from the weapon then so be it. You are, as the saying goes, the boss, hoss.

[Imrinfected]

Apart from this being just obviously ridiculous, the .22 is new.

They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.

I wasn't suggesting AP ammo, actually, but there definitely needs to be a way to make shotguns viable in PvP. Even in real life, Slugs aren't armor piercing - they're just so large and heavy that the force crushes through armor. Flechettes do pierce armor, merely because it's practically a large metal spike.

Even if you don't like the idea of new ammo types(which I don't believe I'll ever understand), there are a number of other solutions.
Perhaps make shotgun ammo damage armor more than other ammo types. Add knockdown to shotgun shots, and factor the knockdown chance into each shot in a burst, increasing the chance of a knockdown.

Even just add ammo types that don't do damage. Flash shells which increase AP consumption of enemies hit with it, beanbags that don't damage people or enemies below 0 HP.

There are a lot of ways to make shotguns more useful. It's disappointing that there's so much real-world material to work from which could add deeper elements of strategy into the game that's completely disregarded, and I think that's why this is a hot-button issue for some people. It really just seems like you're irrationally ignoring good ideas.

Also, I can confirm that psycho and beer are really common in PvP. All drugs are.

I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.

Not cool.

[Smalltime]

They won't be getting AP ammo, we have AP ammo, we don't need to overlap niches, we need to create new ones.

http://youtu.be/YxEPUnZHr5M
This.

[JovankaB]

And you should know better than to expect a crafter to have a chance against a pure PvP build.

I don't know, one extra combat perk could be a lot.
And I'm not talking about some lame "skilled 10 int bruiser all professions in one" gang alts,
I'm talking about hybrid builds which can craft some things and fight.

[Cheesey Dean]

I really don't get it, I'm taking the time to bother replying to you and people come back with moronic trolling posts. Here's a nice little warning, just to help you out. Post in a constructive manner and post something valuable and that's good, continue trolling me and I will ban you, my patience is wearing very thin.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see *where* he is trolling. Unless voicing your opinion counts as trolling.

[JovankaB]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see *where* he is trolling. Unless voicing your opinion counts as trolling.

Some smartass comments that this discussion didn't really need:

> Do you guys not know how to add ammo types? Now that I think of it, I've never actually seen that done in 2238.

> It is much easier to simply remove content from the game, than balance it.

> I know you are trying your hardest to make the game nearly unplayable

[Brooce]

I don't know, one extra combat perk could be a lot.
And I'm not talking about some lame "skilled 10 int bruiser all professions in one" gang alts,
I'm talking about hybrid builds which can craft some things and fight.

Its not significant, but it does force the player to get 150 repair, instead of say Doctor and First Aid which could be used in combat. It is a solution, but it may not be the best. I would love beanbag ammo for the shotgun. Oh lawdy talk about a weapon for slavers.

Again, its not like we are asking you to buff the Pipe Rifle. We are asking for the Pancor Jackhammer to work as well as its tier.

[Solar]

every target was using Psycho (they aren't) and Beer (they aren't) and had both ranks of toughness (a lot do, all don't).

Every player isn't.

I think the perk stopping the DT decrease gives them a ready made role - helps several guns out really.

The one to stun people is a decent one too, helps slavers.

Funny we have beer never used by PvP players in one thread, now its always used

[Brooce]

Maybe at closer range the shotguns can cause knockdown. Lets say at 5 hex or under, and it works kind of like Heavy handed, but the player must burst. This gives the player a motive to get closer, which doesn't exist now because the damage from 1-15 hex is the same.

I'm not against the quest perk. Its definitely a step in the right direction.

[avv]

What kind of characteristics can ammo have?
Can it increase crit chance?
Can it increase range?
Can it increase cripple rate in crits?
Can it make attacks cost less or more ap?
Can it change the attack type of weapon?
Can it bypass or reduce armor from certain range?

It would help to have lots of characteristics in ammo, would allow variety.

For example slugs could fly further, have small ap qualities and minor damage buff (12/10). They are like fmj ammo for shotgun.

Pellets could do more damage the closer you are. Could even have it so that every 3 hex the damage reduces. This would be significant because you still don't have to onehex to do max damage. This would replicate how shotguns really work. It would also have spread after 9 hex.

Then there could be some 2nd tier hq turboload ammo that'd just do badass damage. But would only like spawn in tc chest randomly.

The one to stun people is a decent one too, helps slavers.

Uh no thanks. Heavy handed has shown us where stunning and knockdowning attacks take us - to the trollzone! It should be a rule of thumb to never take control off from players. They should never be dismobilized by another player or anything else for longer than brief moments. It works against npcs and is fun because npcs swarm you and you need to dismobilize them. But npcs don't have feelings so they can be threated as you want.