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[farnak]

What about shotguns, are you going to boost their damage? They do lesser damage then submachineguns even in close combat even against low-armored target.  I know that all rounds in burst hit target at range >1, but it's not enough to make shotgun usefull.
As for me, shotgun should do much more damage, but have small +DR mod and long reload time.
Shotgun is the King in close combat versus low-armored victim, isn't he?

[Tankboy]

make shotguns work with silent death,.

and/or give new ammo with better dmg or something,. its been kind of useless the 2 seasons i have playd here. atleast in pvp,. 

[avv]

Shotguns could have use for some good ammo.

But even then what? Is pancor going to be better than lsw, avenger or gatling laser? If it's worse, nobody's going to use it.

[farnak]

It could be slightly better then SMG, but SMGs will still have longer range.

[avv]

It could be slightly better then SMG, but SMGs will still have longer range.

But avenger is better than smg.

[GroeneAppel]

High tier shotguns should do serious damage, I wouldnt mind if they equalled avengers. after all their range is their drawback. And they lack spread.

[Perteks]

I think best idea is just make shotgun shells 2/1 dmg or 3/1 even

[farnak]

But avenger is better than smg.

However SMGs are rather usefull, in contrast to shotguns.

[Solar]

Table with all 3 brd vs CA:

Avenger AP      2.766514458
Gatling Minigun      2.650316456
Minigun AP      2.489863013
HPFA      2.384224684
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER      2.270225647
PID_M60      2.262486814
PID_HK_CAWS      2.179416621
p90c AP      2.161296584
PID_FN_FAL      2.012120253
PID_LIGHT_SUPPORT_WEAPON      1.947982595
xl70 Ap      1.825146762
10mm SMGAP      1.673485533
PID_HK_P90C      1.671195652
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN      1.659908675
AR AP      1.652173913
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN      1.651073198
PID_MINIGUN      1.485181446
PID_GREASE_GUN      1.362011558
PID_COMBAT_SHOTGUN      1.287837094
PID_10MM_SMG      1.272151899
PID_SHOTGUN      1.238304898
xl70      1.120253165
PID_TOMMY_GUN      1.081597413
PID_ASSAULT_RIFLE      1

Not really sure why Shotguns would need a boost.

[Tankboy]

this looks good, ill blow the dust of my pancors now and try it out,.

[Solar]

Avenger AP      2.227261168
HPFA      2.225675676
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER      2.173036112
PID_HK_CAWS      2.121472543
PID_M60      2.097972973
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN      2.004535051
Minigun AP      2.004535051
PID_FN_FAL      1.897297297
p90c AP      1.84748471
PID_LIGHT_SUPPORT_WEAPON      1.810810811
PID_MINIGUN      1.804081546
PID_HK_P90C      1.787361664
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN      1.591104407
xl70 Ap      1.469386323
10mm SMGAP      1.430501931
PID_10MM_SMG      1.378378378
PID_GREASE_GUN      1.358294895
AR AP      1.33012961
xl70      1.322447691
PID_COMBAT_SHOTGUN      1.23752565
PID_ASSAULT_RIFLE      1.197116649
PID_SHOTGUN      1.193328306
PID_TOMMY_GUN      1.108082677
Gatling Minigun      1


vs Metal mk II

[avv]

Not really sure why Shotguns would need a boost.

TBH I don't know what that table means lol but as you can see, avenger is better. So if it's better people will use it. Spike damage and range are much more important than rate of fire and ammo saving.

Can't try to balance everything inside range and damage. Options are too limited and many items will be left unused due to too narrow effective range-damage settings. Guns need more variety, similar to what was done with m60. Small gun burst weapons are pretty much missing a slot in current pvp.

They could have a slot for sneaks now that bg sneaking was nerfed but rifles have sneak penalty and 3x brd requires high skill, while sneak too requires maxed investment.

[farnak]

Do not know what your numbers mean, but:

Maximum possible normal hit vs Combat armor with 3 BRD:

Caws: 61-97 (OMG burst with 3 BRD)
Combat Shotgun: 34-59

Minigun (AP): range=1: 313-370; range>1: 104-123
Minigun (JHP): range=1: 232-277; range>1: 77-92

Avenger (AP): range=1: 351-408; range>1: 117-136
Avenger (JHP): range=1: 262-307; range>1: 87-102

P90 (AP): range=1: 164-217; range>1: 54-72
P90 (JHP): range=1: 138-186; range>1: 46-62

AR (AP): range=1: 148-216; range>1: 49-72
AR (JHP): range=1: 111-165; range>1: 37-55

Tommy Gun (the weakest MG!!!): range=1: 45-198; range>1: 15-66

I used this formula for calculating with some actual changes. (DT/3 instead of DT/5)
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8853.0

If you do not trust in my calculations, just test it in-game yourself.

[Solar]

Those are averaged over 10AP - ie an initial attack phase, then adjusted to display in terms of ratio to the lowest damage.

The above table is correct.

[Brooce]

Those are averaged over 10AP - ie an initial attack phase, then adjusted to display in terms of ratio to the lowest damage.

The above table is correct.

Do you even play the game? I mean we can look at these numbers all day and contemplate how they may be functional. But me and a group of friends literally just crafted 5 Pancor Jackhammers and bursted each other for 15 minutes. The only redeeming quality to the shotgun is that it does the same damage at 15 hex as at 1 hex. Which is to say it does less than 60 damage to a player with combat armor. This is with BRD1, BRD2, and MRD, each with small guns 200+. The combat armor wasn't even 100%.

The only time the Pancor did damage was when we took off all our armor and shot each other as blue suits. So I mean if your goal was to make shotguns the ultimate griefing weapons, well then pat yourselves on the back, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. But if you were attempting to make shotguns a viable PvP or even PvE weapon, well you failed miserably.