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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Separatist on September 15, 2010, 05:11:41 pm
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I don't understand current situation with melee right now. Basically in Fallaut 1,2 melee fighter was a tank, capable of killing dozens of mobs. Right now I have a melee char of 17 level with bonus 11 to damage and still I am hitting with Supersledge weaker than most of ranged weapon. Where did go a knockdown bonus for high melee hit (one of the biggest bonuses of that weapon type)? Why Supersledge needs 4 ap for a usual strike instead of 3 in fal 1,2? Apparently Devs doesn't want a melee fighters in FO. A pity, I had so many ideas of melee builds, that would have been interesting to built)) With that current char I had to spent a lot of points in EW just to make him capable of fighting.
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why 4 ap? balance.... FO is still beta, but 4 ap is kept probably so you cant spam by hitting someone. damage? yes.... theres some bug as ive heard, with melee/unarmed thing...
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I would like to point out that supersledge was weaker than most ranged weapons in FO/FO2 too, and that there was no such thing as "knockdown bonus for high melee hit" in original games, contrary to what was in FOnline at some point (changes to critical hits with sledgehammer; reverted and further changes postponed).
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I would like to point out that supersledge was weaker than most ranged weapons in FO/FO2 too, and that there was no such thing as "knockdown bonus for high melee hit" in original games, contrary to what was in FOnline at some point (changes to critical hits with sledgehammer; reverted and further changes postponed).
That depends, with certain build it was powerful enough to take down a lot of mobs. It easy to count damage, if we take a supersledge fighter with 8ag, he will have 3 19-36 strikes (57-108) in a turn. The SG shooter with .223 pistol with 10ag (one of the most powerful weapon for SG) we will have 2 20-30 shoots (40-60) in a turn. Of course on a higher levels there were fast rate of fire bonus and Bonus HtH attack, even those perks would not have changed balance. With right build on higher levels Melee fighter was astoundingly powerful with Slayer perk (4-5 crits in a round with supersledge is "must see build").
Runed F2 5 minutes ago, every melee hit above 10-12 automatically knocks down mob (and throws him from you for several hexes), not to mention 20-30 melee hits.
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I was actually waiting until other things were done before even trying to guess at decent values. They'll have their turn eventually - I don't have the heart to abandon Bob ;)
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It easy to count damage, if we take a supersledge fighter with 8ag, he will have 3 19-36 strikes (57-108) in a turn. The SG shooter with .223 pistol with 10ag (one of the most powerful weapon for SG) we will have 2 20-30 shoots (40-60) in a turn.
This is assuming no aimed shots (which make AP count less), and unarmoured target (so that ammo DR modifiers does not count). Very convenient. Top-shelf ranged weapons from Fallouts (and supersledge was top-shelf melee one) easily win.
Runed F2 5 minutes ago, every melee hit above 10-12 automatically knocks down mob (and throws him from you for several hexes), not to mention 20-30 melee hits.
This is not a true knockdown, since the critter stands up right after receiving the damage with no AP loss. It simply pushes the critter away damage/10 hexes (damage/5 if weapon has Knockback perk). This is implemented in FOnline but only if true knockdown effect happens (or damage type is explosion).
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Something that I think will make a big difference to melee is making the second attack of a lot of melee weapons 'Throw'. They did it in an F2 weapons mod, I can't remember which, I'll check it out later.
As in, regular knives will have Thrust and Throw.
Combat knives will have Swing and Throw.
Crowbars will have Swing and Throw.
Wrenches will have Swing and Throw. You get the idea.
Because as it is now Swing and Thrust are exactly the same - because in Fallout they were exactly the same too. I think rather than trying to create two interesting attacks, give melee weapons more interesting functionality. That is, the possibility to heave them at people. Even stuff like the regular knife can potentially be useful.
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Because as it is now Swing and Thrust are exactly the same - because in Fallout they were exactly the same too.
One idea was to give the aftermentioned knockback effect working always with Thrust attack, and never with Swing attack. This way you can decide whether you want to push your opponent away (convenient if you're fighting against lot of melee opponents) or keep him close (if he's a ranged fighter).
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One idea was to give the aftermentioned knockback effect working always with Thrust attack, and never with Swing attack.
It's an interesting choice, but I think people would just always use Thrust. The ability to constantly knock your opponent down is preferable, as you can just keep doing it and never let him recover. And it's also frustrating as hell to be repeatedly knocked down.
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It's an interesting choice, but I think people would just always use Thrust. The ability to constantly knock your opponent down is preferable, as you can just keep doing it and never let him recover. And it's also frustrating as hell to be repeatedly knocked down.
Still, the opponent will be up on his feet again before you get back to him - unless you wish him to come to you (N/A in case of ranged fighter). Tweaking knocking distance might balance this out.
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This is assuming no aimed shots (which make AP count less), and unarmoured target (so that ammo DR modifiers does not count). Very convenient. Top-shelf ranged weapons from Fallouts (and supersledge was top-shelf melee one) easily win.
This is not a true knockdown, since the critter stands up right after receiving the damage with no AP loss. It simply pushes the critter away damage/10 hexes (damage/5 if weapon has Knockback perk). This is implemented in FOnline but only if true knockdown effect happens (or damage type is explosion).
I was taking base attack intentional to describe max amount of damage per turn. No reason to count an aimed shots if there is a difference between base damage (or there is a different way to count an amount of crit damage for melee and SG?). Gauss rifle was able almost at the end of the game and yes, was superior to all other weapon (except, perhaps bozar), but then, at the end of a follaut2 there was slayer perk, and it doesn't need to aim.
As in, regular knives will have Thrust and Throw.
Combat knives will have Swing and Throw.
Crowbars will have Swing and Throw.
Wrenches will have Swing and Throw. You get the idea.
Because as it is now Swing and Thrust are exactly the same - because in Fallout they were exactly the same too. I think rather than trying to create two interesting attacks, give melee weapons more interesting functionality. That is, the possibility to heave them at people. Even stuff like the regular knife can potentially be useful.
Hm, if you mean swing = + damage, thrust = armor pierce, throw = throw )) Indeed, that would make difference.
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Still, the opponent will be up on his feet again before you get back to him - unless you wish him to come to you (N/A in case of ranged fighter). Tweaking knocking distance might balance this out.
Yeah, but then he has to regenerate all of his AP, doesn't he?
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No reason to count an aimed shots if there is a difference between base damage (or there is a different way to count an amount of crit damage for melee and SG?).
There is a difference, because 1 additional AP increases AP attack cost by 33% in case of 3 AP weapon, and 20% in case of 5 AP weapon. In case of flares, arguably the best ranged weapon in game due to 1 AP base cost - assuming perk - and standard 60% instakill chance on successful eye critical hit (with Better Criticals), this increase is 100%.
Yeah, but then he has to regenerate all of his AP, doesn't he?
Not if we're talking about knockback (which is just falling to the ground).
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There is a difference, because 1 additional AP increases AP attack cost by 33% in case of 3 AP weapon, and 20% in case of 5 AP weapon. In case of flares, arguably the best ranged weapon in game due to 1 AP base cost - assuming perk - and standard 60% instakill chance on successful eye critical hit (with Better Criticals), this increase is 100%.
Speaking of balance... For now, I guess, the best HtH\Melee weapon with "instant kill" is a weapon of working class - stone. 3ap for aimed strike to eyes.
Anyway, I don't see any reason for 4ap Sledgehammer if you can't, in any case, make more than 2 aimed strikes with 3ap Sledge in the eyes. (Except 10ag + 2 action boy). Which is much easier to do with ranged weapon.
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Not if we're talking about knockback (which is just falling to the ground).
I don't know, I can just see that being the only attack worth bothering with. Much better to repeatedly disable your opponent rather than let them get a hit on you, even if it takes longer. And I guess other people can shoot at this guy as he's sliding around.
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And I guess other people can shoot at this guy as he's sliding around.
Correct, but note that travelling time is not dependent on travelled distance, but only on knockdown/standup animation speed. This guy will be on his feet with all APs intact before you manage to get near him again.
Also, in FOnline, weapons are no longer bound by 2 possible attacks limit (the current limit is 3), so having a weapon with Swing, Thrust and Throw is possible (note that "Use" counts as an attack here).
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Correct, but note that travelling time is not dependent on travelled distance, but only on knockdown/standup animation speed.
Good to know that there's three attack options - but my point still stands. Unless there's a substantial damage difference, people are just going to prefer to knock their opponent down. I do still think unarmed/melee need some kind of disabling attack, however. Their only real hope if they get in close is to keep their enemy out of action before they get bursted.
Maybe we could rework HtH evade to encompass melee weapons. Once AC has been made useful, of course.
I don't have enough experience with melee to really say what would be practical, I've only dabbled. Maybe just doing damage could be just as useful. I'm not sure.
Someone go get Bob.
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You really don't want Bob to post ... he's not on your side on this one ;)
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You really don't want Bob to post ... he's not on your side on this one ;)
IMPOSSIBLE. Well then I'm most likely wrong, if he thinks knockback isn't way more powerful than just doing damage, he'll be right. That fella knows his melee.
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That fella knows his melee.
That's why he plays it well. And that's why he can compete other pvp character using his melee character, when you can't.
You think it's a matter of game mechanics. He thinks that's a matter of skill, and I agree - melee/unarmed is still very powerful if you use it right.
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You think it's a matter of game mechanics. He thinks that's a matter of skill, and I agree - melee/unarmed is still very powerful if you use it right.
I'm trying to suggest that giving one attack (Thrust) knockdown ability, and another (Swing) no knockdown will mean that the knockdown attack is preferred, even if the melee character has to chase the guy they knocked down, simply because their opponent is disabled - even if he gets to keep his AP. That's what I'd do. But maybe I'm totally wrong.
I don't think skill and the power of unarmed really comes into it. I'm just trying to sound out Atom's suggestion of knockdown. Maybe you and Bob know different, I'm not pretending this is my area of expertise by a long shot.
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Well Bob was using almost all possible drugs to pump his character up as much as possible. Psycho, Jets, Buffouts, (Nuka Cola?) to make himself effective against his opponents. Now with changed drugs system it's almost impossible to make such a tank.
Anyway first step would be taking a look on unarmed chars and thinking if they are balanced with melee.
To be effective with melee you one of top tier weapons (Cattle Prod, Ripper, Super Sledge).
To be effectve with unarmed you need... Haymaker which doesn't cost anything. All you need to do is having enough skill points in unarmed and level 9 (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Unarmed_(Skill)). It can be spamed quickly as attack with melee weapon and you get got bonus to criticals.
You can say that melee is better because of range 2 hex... problem is that Super Sledge is two-handed weapon. In-case you get crippled arm - you can't use it. All melee weapons can be dropped after being hit in arm. Also you need at least basic melee weapon to actually fight - in unarmed you fight with your bare hands, you don't need to spend money, time to get a weapon.
What I found out while playing melee is that without criticals you are not able to do win. And as we all know criticals are based on Luck. For me it's plain stupid that melee character needs a lot of Luck points instead of points in Strenght (completly against logic). In my opnion it would be good to change it so it's MUCH more profitable for melee characters to have lot of points in Strenght instead of Luck. Perhaps making roll on Strenght everytime you hit oponent to check if you knocked out, knocked down, etc him. And for sure boosting Strenght calculated damage bonus much more. Of course reworking perks like "Bonus Melee Damage" would be nice. This way even basic/low tier melee weapons could be somehow effective. At same time it would be good to think how powerful melee/unarmed weapons should be compared to ranged weapons...
I don't mean nerfing unarmed and I am for adding a new weapon perk "Undroppable" for Power Fist and Mega Power Fist.
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Be able to do haymaker with a mega powerfist IS the solution to have ultimate PvP unarmeds.
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Go melee 21lvl vs minigun 21lvl... go play OBT2 maybe melee is better there.
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Go melee 21lvl vs minigun 21lvl... go play OBT2 maybe melee is better there.
Yes , but not vs flamer :)
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People dont realize Melee is a hit and run weapon...
Go in, Knock him in the eyes, if he isn't knocked out or knocked down run off again, hopefuly you blinded him, repeat til one of you is dead or someone else joins the fight.
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i refuse to accept any other way to play this game than to run up to a target and press a button. everything in this game should work as simply as playing a sg/bg burster. /whine
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there is only one thing that pisses me off about unarmed/melee:
when you target some who is out of range your character starts to WALK!!!! towards the aim 0_o
Make the character automatically run when he attacks with melee someone who is out of range
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there is only one thing that pisses me off about unarmed/melee:
when you target some who is out of range your character starts to WALK!!!! towards the aim 0_o
Make the character automatically run when he attacks with melee someone who is out of range
+1
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there is only one thing that pisses me off about unarmed/melee:
when you target some who is out of range your character starts to WALK!!!! towards the aim 0_o
Make the character automatically run when he attacks with melee someone who is out of range
Maybe its point... Or not... I see only problem with Melle vs BA ( or on psycho too) Hit sux on it. :/
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melee AND unarmed need special 100% AP abilities that are low damage, high AP cost. either reimplement some old weapons, or rework some of the ones that are currently in, but theres no denying psycho + tesla or even BA completely negates almost any melee functionality besides crippling.
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melee AND unarmed need special 100% AP abilities that are low damage, high AP cost. either reimplement some old weapons, or rework some of the ones that are currently in, but theres no denying psycho + tesla or even BA completely negates almost any melee functionality besides crippling.
I won't deny it, But I will have to prove you wrong.
These tests were not done using any super character. Need to thank Valentine for running 'Ahbobsaget' . 3 melee damage, 8 strength, 11% critical. Character Has better criticals perk( the key to achieving the knockouts / knockdowns, and cripples, that melee is awesome for. )
I had stats of one who might be wearing Brotherhood armor, 8/40 , and 40% DR. Under psycho, DR of 55%
We did Eyes, Groin, Legs, Head for all three of these weapons also, but for the sake of the forum, I will only post the results for Eyeshots. If anyone wants to see the others, let me know.
I figured I would start with a basic weapon..
-Sledgehammer [4-12]
-Sharpened Spear [4-15]
-Super Sledge [18-39]
Sledgehammer / Eyes / Brotherhood armor
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 14 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 1 hit point.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 4 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 6 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 18 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 8 hit points.
Sledgehammer / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 4 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 8 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 12 hit points and knocked down.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points.
Sharpened Spear / Eyes / Brotherhood armor
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 17 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 25 hit points, knocked out and had your armor
• You were hit in the eyes for 2 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 29 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 15 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 6 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 23 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 17 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for 1 hit point.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 12 hit points and knocked down.
Sharpened Spear / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 35 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 3 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 19 hit points and blinded.
• You were hit in the eyes for 3 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 13 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 39 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 53 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 49 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
SuperSledge / Eyes / Brotherhood armor
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 53 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 71 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 64 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 33 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 81 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 92 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 51 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for 19 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 55 hit points and knocked down.
SuperSledge / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 68 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 6 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 43 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 27 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 20 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 35 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 121 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 11 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 71 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
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A thought on the other "points" made in this thread:
I've probably put in a couple thousand hours playing melee build of varying types,
i) 15 Melee dmg + aimed shots
ii)15 Melee dmg & fast shot
iii)1 Melee dmg & finesse (35% crit) ,with/without Better critical perk
iv)Finesse & Heavy handed (highly not recommended :D )
v)5 Melee Dmg, 11% critical
@OP , after trying all of these, it's been realized that the pure damage build is not great, but decent versus critters. It will be terrible when facing a player character, 9 out of 10 times.
The bottom line when talking about successful use of melee weapons, is having both... criticals, and damage.
Better criticals perk. All anyone needs to know, this is what unleashes the power , and maximum effect of any melee weapon, or gun for that matter.
Well Bob was using almost all possible drugs to pump his character up as much as possible. Psycho, Jets, Buffouts, (Nuka Cola?) to make himself effective against his opponents. Now with changed drugs system it's almost impossible to make such a tank.
Yes, RJ thank you, this is true. After reaching 1,000,000 xp, Ahbobsaget decided to dabble in some drugs. This went on for about the last 3 months of the previous session.
For 3 fabulous months, I ate psycho, and jet. All psycho did is ensure that i didn't get shredded by a single burst from Big gun . As for the jet... well, that shit is just addictive.
Make the character automatically run when he attacks with melee someone who is out of range
This is the most terrible, awful, and LAZY idea I have seen.
The only way this could be a good thing, is if - Hit must be selected, when player is within no less than 3-4 hex of target, for the auto run function to kick in.
This should be an optional feature, not one that somebody is forced to use.
One idea was to give the aftermentioned knockback effect working always with Thrust attack, and never with Swing attack.
- Not in favor of this. Should stay as it is, perhaps with a slightly higher chance to cause knockback by using 'thrust' than there currently is. Effect should not be limited to type of attack.
Tweaking knocking distance might balance this out.
- This is a selling point of melee character, for me. I want to hit somebody halfway across the damn map, as it is now.. If they are able to stand up after, and run away, so be it.
- Nerf knockback ? :o
I do still think unarmed/melee need some kind of disabling attack, however.
Disabling attack like crippling? , As i mentioned before, this effect is rarely noticed without a really good critical hit. It is maximized through the use of Better criticals. This is standard for pretty much every weapon/ attack in the game.
Their only real hope if they get in close is to keep their enemy out of action before they get bursted.
Yes, unfortunately this is the truth. In my own and others dream world, there would be some inherent damage resistance.. Some kind of benefits to having melee / unarmed skills tagged , with some check on the items in hands. I mean come on, these players need to get within 2 hex minimum to attack, yet there is nothing in place to Balance Damage taken. The nerf on psycho was dark day for melee user.
Bob's bottom line : Melee is effective, and by no means should it be turned into some point and click lazy bullshit.
(http://thumbnails24.imagebam.com/9879/21664098780645.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/21664098780645)
There are things which need to change, but changing too much has a tendency to ruin a good thing, as history has proven.
For what it is, you need to accept that this is what you will see for most of the time when playing this class :
(http://thumbnails22.imagebam.com/9879/b355ac98780646.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/b355ac98780646)
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Bob knows all, what he says should go with melee...that 200+ dmg crit was amazing lol.
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why does melee or unarmed need to be on par with gun related traits?
Humanity started using guns because no matter how good you were with your hands or with a sword or even a chainsword of some kind the person holding the gun was the victor of the day (provided he could hit you and that there was initial distance).
Balance does not need to come from lethality... the actual cost of firing your ammo and having a gun deteriorate is much much higher than that of a spear or sledgehammer or ultimately your hands and in the end force the melee user (and give them the opportunity) to get perks that may help him otherwise... ie high sneak and sneak related perks with a melee/unarmed prequisite or even a much improved version of Dodger Perk (could be 3 tiers, dodger gives you 5, then improved dodger gives another 10 and master dodger 15... total 30 AC ... add a 20 AC armor and your agility 10 and thats a nice 60 Armor... save some AP and get it even higher)
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why does melee or unarmed need to be on par with gun related traits?
Because it can and it has potential for awesome. The problem is just when you make a character, it has to be total melee, total sniper or total whatsoever. This creates various problems like powerbuilds, alts and the problem how are we going to balance melee to fit the world of guns.
If our chars could be more dynamic and do various things well while still having their main roles, melee could be part of everyday combat. For example a strong biggunner could be also a sledge-wielding fighter or good with his fists. Agile sniper could handle a knife. Basically anyone should be able to use most melee weapons without always having 30% accuracy with it. We should get rid of special's accuracy is related to stats -rule.
Then why use melee? We could implement some good features that would make melee the most effective combat ability in close range. So that a minigunner would prefer to equip his powerfist or sledge when his enemy comes near. It would make fights much more interesting when players had to plan when to switch weapons.
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Then why use melee? We could implement some good features that would make melee the most effective combat ability in close range. So that a minigunner would prefer to equip his powerfist or sledge when his enemy comes near. It would make fights much more interesting when players had to plan when to switch weapons.
Agreed. Fallout 2 practically admitted they set Unarmed/Melee too low by giving you free unarmed/melee training in the first two damn towns. I like the thought that if enemies get up close, you don't run away but instead start punching dudes in the face. But I don't know how you encourage that. A straight damage buff would just make melee NPCs absolute beasts. And it goes beyond more than a simple damage buff - the issue of character durability comes into it, and so on - why risk a melee fight when you can just run away?
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Agreed. Fallout 2 practically admitted they set Unarmed/Melee too low by giving you free unarmed/melee training in the first two damn towns. I like the thought that if enemies get up close, you don't run away but instead start punching dudes in the face. But I don't know how you encourage that. A straight damage buff would just make melee NPCs absolute beasts. And it goes beyond more than a simple damage buff - the issue of character durability comes into it, and so on - why risk a melee fight when you can just run away?
In SW: KoTOR there's a great bonus when you attack someone with melee/unarmed and target has ranged weapon equiped, so there's 2 possibilities to play: pure-melee or melee/ranged, because pure ranged will be useful only with someone tanking. But in Fallout it's not that easy to get close to your enemy because sometimes you can die with 1 shot.
But anyway even if you'll make unarmed/melee in close combat better than ranged weapon, then what you'll do with bursters? What will be thier role? Right now they playing role of "melee", if unarmed/melee will be better than point blank burst.. then there will be no more bursters, except for bluesuitokillers with miniguns and JHP ammo just for fun.
Only powerfist, cattle prods and rippers should atleast a bit match to SG/BG/EW, because it consumes ammo, and it should be almost the same as 1/2 of point blank burst in power. So unarmed/melee will be the same as BG, but less expensive and only point blank possible, but because of less expensive less damage, but still possible to kill someone.
Bare hands, knives, hammers and knuckles should have deterioration and they should break much much much much faster to imitate "ammo", then it could be made useful too.
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och really ? 40-120 dmg on Psycho In BA all time ? it cant be true :> Maybe you do it ,but when guy in BA have avanger he can kill you from one hex with one burst ( or high hit + knock ) To crippled his arm you need be very luckly . With 6 LK + better crit + 2 more crit i had to hit him 3-4 time to crippled his arm.
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just saying, bypass armor crits aren't representative of melee functionality bob. i know you like to throw around those big numbers but lets pull out a plasma rifle and we'll see much nastier bypass crits.
the truth is melee's problems in the current state of the game are obvious: you don't get nearly enough bang for your buck.
for having to chase someone down, and then the terrible walking animations, and then finally catching them, only to have a slight chance at controlling the fight just long enough to get a good shot in, the usage of melee weapons is terrible.
they need to cripple. ALOT more. unless significant changes are introduced in how melee users reach a target, the problem will always be inherent with the engine in a RT setting - kiting. as a melee user you cannot overcome an opponent who starts out at range, barring any luck misses/non-crits/cripples. you will be handily knocked out, crippled, or simply out of HP before you can reach the target.
melee is currently mostly situational in usage. it needs to be taken out of the dark ages and given a serious looking at. if melee is to remain the same, all t2+ melee weapons need something like a perk to increase the chance of cripple effects on critical hits. it is simply unacceptable that hitting someone in the arm with an enormous sledgehammer won't break it. likewise, hitting someone in the head/eyes with a hammer... knockout.
letting a melee PC into close range should equal death for you, no questions asked. because, the current situation, is that melee are always in range of gun users, and when they finally get there, the effect is more akin to a powerful bullet than a melee weapon, with certain exceptions like the super sledge, which can get some hilarious knockbacks.
edit: little tidbit from the ER, knife wounds are far more deadly than even most rifle wounds.
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hey Zato... I thought in other threads you yell at us "softies" about complaining about pvp... your arguement is realism... you want a game where realism is king right?
Well in reality melee weapon fighters in combat ended in the 19th century... sure you had the occasional cavalry charge, the occasional "fix bayonettes" etch but during the day, in open terrain there is no way a melee user could take down a competent firearm user.
Also "it is simply unacceptable that hitting someone in the arm with an enormous sledgehammer won't break it." ...
Yes. getting hit with a sledge on the arm will usually break that arm. No problem there.
What happens when you shoot someone with a gun? On the head? Do they bleed a bit and then keep chasing you with their sledge? Cause there is no way they can do that when they are dead!
How about if they were ANY type of conventional armor? Well they still die you know... leather, metal and even kevlar wont protect against a shot to a sensitive area from a high powered rifle of any kind. Shotgun bullets (not spread) will also bypass kevlar and the same for high caliber handguns... Even if you dont die from the shot itself, you die from blood loss or hydrostatic shock. Alot of the times when a bullet goes through you completely the chances are you will simply get knocked out from the shock itself regardless of damage (or critical).
And if you survive unlike a melee hit usually a bullet wound really does need high level (surgeon style) medical attention and not some first aid... let alone the dangers of infection etc.
And I am leaving laser rifles, plasma and miniguns out of this cause then even the THOUGHT of comparing melee to firearms becomes a joke.
So yes, lets introduce more realism. You will break my hand and I will kill you with a mauser. Sounds like a plan.
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But I don't know how you encourage that. A straight damage buff would just make melee NPCs absolute beasts. And it goes beyond more than a simple damage buff - the issue of character durability comes into it, and so on - why risk a melee fight when you can just run away?
Our melee is a bit fucked up. We got too little strategic options to choose from in general. Roughly there's 2: running and shooting. If there was more options to apply, like stances, concentrated aiming, aiming while walking, sneaking (not 300% sneak), rushing and switching to more suitable weapon in midst of combat - melee could surely have a place there.
I'm not going to even discuss how to fit melee in our current combat.
But in Fallout it's not that easy to get close to your enemy because sometimes you can die with 1 shot.
And that's something that should be fixed.
But anyway even if you'll make unarmed/melee in close combat better than ranged weapon, then what you'll do with bursters?
If they saw someone coming at them with melee weapon, they could lay down a burst when enemy was crossing the medium-close range, then switch to their own melee and have an advantage because of the damage dealt with that burst. Or if the enemy was further away, the gunman would surely win because he could shoot so many times before the axeman could reach him.
What will be thier role? Right now they playing role of "melee", if unarmed/melee will be better than point blank burst..
Like I said current combat is pretty fucked up. Good example why is that people make characters that can't do much of anything else than "burst". Their entire purpose is to burst, sounds pretty limited for a sandbox game.
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it would be quite interesting if "hiding" would be used as sneak. You know, necromunda style, making it a nececcity in battle for the simple reason of balancing it out properly.
I mean, "charging" could be implemented as well for melee characters, I mean, there's so much that can be implemented, and it will work pretty well IMO...
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it would be quite interesting if "hiding" would be used as sneak. You know, necromunda style, making it a nececcity in battle for the simple reason of balancing it out properly.
Yeh sounds cool, as long as its success is not dependent on your sneak%. Most problems which are related to alts and powerbuilds are caused by the fact that skill% equals success or failure.
I mean, "charging" could be implemented as well for melee characters, I mean, there's so much that can be implemented, and it will work pretty well IMO...
It would be basically just speed boost which you can only use to move forward. Would be good for changing positions or catching a foe unaware. It's just not going to work as long as running isn't restricted in any way. The fact that a player can instantly make his character run in any direction with full speed strips away various strategic options.
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Yeh sounds cool, as long as its success is not dependent on your sneak%. Most problems which are related to alts and powerbuilds are caused by the fact that skill% equals success or failure.
This is RPG, there're alot reflexive games already, if you don't want skill affect success/failure, then... why do we need skills at all?
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This is RPG, there're alot reflexive games already
Who said anything about reflexes? Best choice for fonline pvp would be tactical real time action.
if you don't want skill affect success/failure, then... why do we need skills at all?
Because they would still determine what perks and profesions you get.
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actually, I was thinking about a basic skill roll about hiding.
Player 1 has 150% sneak skill.
Player 2 has 6 Perception and no bonus sequence modifiers.
player 2 can spot a 0% sneak character in hiding "through" the "cover" at: (Per+Sequ)/2= 9 hexes
Player 2 can detect 0% skill in hiding from the back at: Per+Sequ=18 hexes
Player 1 has 150% skill, therefore reducing his ability to be seen from the front by: Skl/50=3 hex reduction
Player 1 can reduce his visibility from the front by : Skl/25=6 hex reduction
So, Player 1 can be detected while in hiding by player 2 being near the cover at: (Per+Sequ)/2-Skl/50=6 Hexes
From plain sight in hiding at: Per+Sequ-Skl/25=12 Hexes
Note: These tables are pretty much something I made up in 20 minutes, so they could use some work...
Replacing the current system is necessary because of this shitty hiding in the middle of a concrete road...
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You will break my hand and I will kill you with a mauser. Sounds like a plan.
have you never fucking played this game at all past level 5? god damn you noobs are annoying.
THATS EXACTLY HOW THE GAME IS. A bluesuit with a mausser and 10 LK will eventually oneshot the guy with 250 HP and brotherhood armor. melee weapons currently function like close range bullets, which is just stupid.
you want to talk realism, sure. what you gonna do with a pistol when some big ass 7 foot dude in advanced polymer plating with a super sledge gets in your face?
you gonna shoot him? lol. he's going to knock your head off. you have to shoot him before he gets there... otherwise YOU'RE dead.
a melee'er often runs to his death when charging an enemy, and the payoff is not acceptable for the insane risk of running at gun users. its STILL a game. elements of realism are required for immersion but I do believe melee weapons need a serious buff. they should be removing limbs with 75% efficiency. damage comes from bypass crits, you don't need more damage as bob has shown.
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well at least we all agree melee needs to be buffed
for me the biggest problem is catching your opponent since he will kite u to death.. other than that i have no problems with damage output, at least with unarmed
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The haymaker 15% crit buff is the only reason unarmed characters are ever made, too bad you can't hit anyone(competent) in rt.
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Forget equal balancing of melee (unarmed) and firearms skills. In f1/2 there it works, because it was single player game and there were not any other players. I just dont understand why man with knife or even katana should dominate over man with assault rifle.
Best is, to add purpose, location or role for this skills. I.e. in every pub you should use this kind of skill without penalty of being killed by guards,...
Actualy, right now it is cheapest PK or maybe anti PK combat skill for mining places.. If you want to defend yourself but you dont want to loose your stuff.
And bring another types of this.
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The super advanced polymer armor has eyeslits right?
So sorry Zato but as the 7 foot guy LUMBERS (not runs, he is a 7 foot huge muscled guy remember?) towards me I have the time to aim and shoot him on the eye... given I have luck 10 (when the human average is 5) I really do expect that the bullet will hit him in the eye, blind him and kill him.
Against Power Armor thats a diffrent story... but anything LESS means that the helmet itself is restricted to just that, a helmet and not a face mask.
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Forget equal balancing of melee (unarmed) and firearms skills. In f1/2 there it works, because it was single player game and there were not any other players. I just dont understand why man with knife or even katana should dominate over man with assault rifle.
Because there wouldn't necessarily be a man with knife but a man with gun and a knife. For example in a situation where both fighters happen to run out of ammo at the same time and there's little space between them, the one who decides to stab instead of reloading could win.
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Because there wouldn't necessarily be a man with knife but a man with gun and a knife. For example in a situation where both fighters happen to run out of ammo at the same time and there's little space between them, the one who decides to stab instead of reloading could win.
I'd better take fully loaded SMG in off-hand then ;p
Even if you'll make reload drain all APs, it's the same time to switch between MainHandWeapon to Knife and MainHandWeapon to SMG, and of couse SMG is much more better than knife, eye shots from more than 1 hex and point blank burst at distance of 1 hex is better than poke someone with a knife.
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I'd better take fully loaded SMG in off-hand then ;p
Even if you'll make reload drain all APs, it's the same time to switch between MainHandWeapon to Knife and MainHandWeapon to SMG, and of couse SMG is much more better than knife, eye shots from more than 1 hex and point blank burst at distance of 1 hex is better than poke someone with a knife.
That's how it goes now and that's how common sense tells us. But if we want to spare a slot for melee in our game we could just make it so that switching to melee weapon in close-melee range would be one of the best strategic options. Other way is to make melee just effective in current weirdo combat and continue the saga of powerbuilds and alts.
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It's logical that the melee/unarmed fighter will win if he gets close to his gun-using enemy. It's just that it's very hard to get close in the first place. That's totally how it should work. Ranged weapons are doing good ranged, melee/unarmed should do good hand to hand. Not like now, when you kind of melee fight people with a ranged weapon(RavenousRats' beloved point blank burst).
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Two handed weapons should have huge maulus to *chance to hit* in VERY close quarters. Either based on gunner skill (big/en/small guns)or melee fighter skill (meele/unarmed). This should especially effect sniper/laser/hunting rifles aimed shots, miniguns/LSWs/ARs bursts.
That would partially solve most of LOLbursts from 1 hex and camping behind corner. If you let some get close to you, grab a pistol, shotgun, SMG or flamer.... or RUN FOR IT :).
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Two handed weapons should have huge maulus to *chance to hit* in VERY close quarters. Either based on gunner skill (big/en/small guns)or melee fighter skill (meele/unarmed). This should especially effect sniper/laser/hunting rifles aimed shots, miniguns/LSWs/ARs bursts.
That would partially solve most of LOLbursts from 1 hex and camping behind corner. If you let some get close to you, grab a pistol, shotgun, SMG or flamer.... or RUN FOR IT :).
agree with this post. currently melee weapons function pretty weak compared to other cqc choices.
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Two handed weapons should have huge maulus to *chance to hit* in VERY close quarters. Either based on gunner skill (big/en/small guns)or melee fighter skill (meele/unarmed). This should especially effect sniper/laser/hunting rifles aimed shots, miniguns/LSWs/ARs bursts.
In Your Face! (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/In_Your_Face!)
Bam. There is no reason this perk shouldn't be introduced.
Edit: I'd actually say it should be expanded to include bursts with rifles.
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In Your Face! (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/In_Your_Face!)
Bam. There is no reason this perk shouldn't be introduced.
Actually it could be a default feature for everyone. It doesn't require perk to grab someone from his wrist or turn his gun away. Complete disarming could be worth a perk though.
But it would be easy to avoid with current settings since everyone can just run away.
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Forget equal balancing of melee (unarmed) and firearms skills. In f1/2 there it works, because it was single player game and there were not any other players. I just dont understand why man with knife or even katana should dominate over man with assault rifle.
Best is, to add purpose, location or role for this skills. I.e. in every pub you should use this kind of skill without penalty of being killed by guards,...
Actualy, right now it is cheapest PK or maybe anti PK combat skill for mining places.. If you want to defend yourself but you dont want to loose your stuff.
And bring another types of this.
in f1/2 it works becouse it uses TB only...
plus perks like slayer and Bonus move
all weapon skills should be balanced to offer more variaty... theres no real fun in having SG and BG only
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But it would be easy to avoid with current settings since everyone can just run away.
No no no, the enemy approaching is the hard part but also the fun part. It requires tactics, but if you manage to do it the outcome should be deadly to the enemy.
IMHO the only thing about getting close that should be done is introducing always run, and that's on the todo list already. So the only thing to be made is: Hand to Hand range + Hand to Hand fighter = Death of the Ranged weapon user.
It could be done many ways - increasing damage which is the simplest one but in my opinion not the fun one. Another, debuffing the enemies ability to shot when being at close range like the "In Your Face!" perk(imho that should be default with melee weapons though) - this one seems more interesting than just increasing damage. That shouldn't affect HtH vs HtH fights.
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No no no, the enemy approaching is the hard part but also the fun part. It requires tactics, but if you manage to do it the outcome should be deadly to the enemy.
IMHO the only thing about getting close that should be done is introducing always run, and that's on the todo list already. So the only thing to be made is: Hand to Hand range + Hand to Hand fighter = Death of the Ranged weapon user.
It could be done many ways - increasing damage which is the simplest one but in my opinion not the fun one. Another, debuffing the enemies ability to shot when being at close range like the "In Your Face!" perk(imho that should be default with melee weapons though) - this one seems more interesting than just increasing damage. That shouldn't affect HtH vs HtH fights.
But players can just keep running no matter what. So ranged weapons player would always either win or get away when facing a melee fighter. Unless he wants to risk it.
Besides, it's completely retarded that big part of the melee fighting is about chasing your opponent. Melee should be about ambushing and hiding, unless you have a power armor and can just shrug off most damage. Melee can never work properly if there is only pure melee classes and pure ranged classes. It will automatically lead to retarded kiting because melee man only wants to get close and ranged dude only wants to keep distance.
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If the ranged guy runs all the time, he won't be able to shot. Even if he shots once, then he must restore his AP which means standing in place for some time. Believe me, sooner or later, you manage to approach the enemy. Had some experiences in this field.
Also it's good to fight in places full of buildings like Broken Hills. It's very nice to run out of a corner and easly pew your enemy.
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Plus, if you're more than sinlge players, say 3v3, if you've got a Melee guy running at 3 people and they all run, then they have 0 output ... where as Mr Melee's friends can shoot so they have 2.
Melee damage isn't bad, Auto Run would make it easier to pull off and Perks will make it so you weren't so easily shot on the way in. Until those things are done I won't fiddle with anything else (except for the low tech boost that happens on next update).
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What I meant with running was that the ranged dude could simply run away every time he sees the situation unsuitable for him. Run away from whole town, that's what I meant. He simply fires as much as he can, if the melee won't die you can just leave the place and return again.
Even if the ranged fighter couldn't run away, wouldn't this mean that melee player always wins if he survives the first free shots the shooter manages to land?
In addition kiting is still retarded.
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Plus, if you're more than sinlge players, say 3v3, if you've got a Melee guy running at 3 people and they all run, then they have 0 output ... where as Mr Melee's friends can shoot so they have 2.
Melee damage isn't bad, Auto Run would make it easier to pull off and Perks will make it so you weren't so easily shot on the way in. Until those things are done I won't fiddle with anything else (except for the low tech boost that happens on next update).
In a real fight if a melee char rushes 3 players they will just blast him to tiny pieces before he gets close. Lack of autorun is the only thing making it useless though.
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what about a weapon with a chance to block bullets....
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what about a weapon with a chance to block bullets....
Yeah introduce lightsabres and force choke! xD
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technically a shield could be classified as a weapon, to some extent...
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Well, hopefully it would be less like a shield and more like a lightsaber...xD
But if melee users could have swords and shields it would even the playing field agains gun users
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once again...
there is a REASON humanity evolved PAST swords and shields.
the "best" shield today, the full riot shields used by swat teams or combat squads to hide their colleagues behind are extremely heavy and unwieldy so that the person carrying them only carries the shield while other people shoot from behind him.
Even so a dedicate assault rifle/sniper rifle, MINIGUN would pass it like paper after a couple of shots.
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But...
This is FALLOUT. A POSTAPOCALIPTIC world. The humanity kind of went to the level of sticks and hammers in big percentage.
Plus if we would care about reality so much, the game would be unplayable.
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actually, those are ballistics shields that you're speaking about, riot shields are normally made from plexiglass with a small amounts of metal on the rims for durability, but yes, a minigun would bypass it pretty easily, but then again, fallout is a different dimension than this world. So it wouldn't really be against the lore if the US developed some advanced shielding technology during the great war...
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Honestly yes this is still beta, BUT, right now it all depends on what your using, use a ripper my friend, or super sledge.
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In response to the minigun vs ballistic shield comment, of course the minigun would win. But irl miniguns are also a mounted weapon and aren't really meant for use on infantry(Well unless you're fighting the chinese). Having a "tank" class to absorb damage would require major changes to how line of sight works, you'd need more than 255 hp to be useful too unless it has insanely high stats and even then you could just sit in tb, absorb a hit, pull out a bg then bam.
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once again...
there is a REASON humanity evolved PAST swords and shields.
the "best" shield today, the full riot shields used by swat teams or combat squads to hide their colleagues behind are extremely heavy and unwieldy so that the person carrying them only carries the shield while other people shoot from behind him.
Even so a dedicate assault rifle/sniper rifle, MINIGUN would pass it like paper after a couple of shots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly
Read his story.
I know those were XIX century guns, but we shouldn't have anything better than in postapocalyptic world.
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a super cattle prod is a deadly melee weapon, but most posters are correct, melee weapons are rather out of place in an environment where guns are supreme. of course, that is true of the real world as well.... which is why we need to change it.
fallout is not the real world, and it needs some gimmicky hilarious option for melee users to be on even grounds with gun users because this is afterall a GAME. if i want to simulate a real knife vs gun fight i will go play COD with my knife out charging guys with m60s. i'm sure you can imagine the outcome.
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a super cattle prod is a deadly melee weapon, but most posters are correct, melee weapons are rather out of place in an environment where guns are supreme. of course, that is true of the real world as well.... which is why we need to change it.
fallout is not the real world, and it needs some gimmicky hilarious option for melee users to be on even grounds with gun users because this is afterall a GAME. if i want to simulate a real knife vs gun fight i will go play COD with my knife out charging guys with m60s. i'm sure you can imagine the outcome.
Yeah you freaking teleport 10 feet through machinegun fire and one shot them because of stupid fing perks. COD is way more melee friendly.
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fallout is not the real world, and it needs some gimmicky hilarious option for melee users to be on even grounds with gun users because this is afterall a GAME.
This is correct. The reason why it might feel weird that guns wouldn't always beat melee is because we lack the graphical animations to simulate for example this kind of situations:
(http://thefightworkspodcast.com/images/grappling-world-team.jpg)
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Meele is useless in PvP combat. But should it be usefull in PvP? I use meele qiet often and have two meele chars. Meele is cheap (in means of ammo, weapons and required skill levels) option for crafters which need to exp or farm. Cause who can afford to slay a golden gecko with hail of 40 5mm APs? But nothing is better than supersledge when hunting geckos and brahmins or clearing toxic caves.
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Meele is useless in PvP combat. But should it be usefull in PvP? I use meele qiet often and have two meele chars. Meele is cheap (in means of ammo, weapons and required skill levels) option for crafters which need to exp or farm. Cause who can afford to slay a golden gecko with hail of 40 5mm APs? But nothing is better than supersledge when hunting geckos and brahmins or clearing toxic caves.
hehe this is a valid point up until you realize that SMGs and assault rifles and even 14mm/223 pistols drop like candy when you know where to hunt :/
melee really should have some use in pvp, because it would surely add a new flavor to pvp, and i'm sure that noone would mind having to come up with alternate tactics for handling besides "run away, shoot, maybe just keep running"
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If they increased damage on melee and hand to hand weapons, also maybe by adding more"kung fu" or melee weapons such as the katana and nunchakus, we can drive the use more melee into a superior fighting style. Cause you can kick or stab a gun out of a players hand. Which means Certain death for alot of people.
Good Luck all of you would be Bruce Lees and may the force be with you.
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Meele is useless in PvP combat. But should it be usefull in PvP? I use meele qiet often and have two meele chars. Meele is cheap (in means of ammo, weapons and required skill levels) option for crafters which need to exp or farm. Cause who can afford to slay a golden gecko with hail of 40 5mm APs? But nothing is better than supersledge when hunting geckos and brahmins or clearing toxic caves.
using ur arguement, the player with better equipement will always be the winner , is it fair?
you could respond: yes it is becouse he invested more money... but wheres the skill?
i say skill should decide the winner
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using ur arguement, the player with better equipement will always be the winner , is it fair?
you could respond: yes it is becouse he invested more money... but wheres the skill?
i say skill should decide the winner
It's always luck that defines the outcome of a battle, sometimes, lvl and equipment differences, circumstances (drugged/crippled/out of ammo/whatever) but generally speaking it's luck in real life.
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It's always luck that defines the outcome of a battle, sometimes, lvl and equipment differences, circumstances (drugged/crippled/out of ammo/whatever) but generally speaking it's luck in real life.
luck in real life?
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luck in real life?
I mean how lucky you got, the simplest example is a crit, or the number of bullets that finally hit the target with your shot, or weather you've spawned in an encounter in 1 hex from another player and he was ending his turn while you're a burster... I hope you get the point.
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Mixing skill with equiptment and luck,
A melee is a powerful and useful character against most Players except those with overpowering weapons such as miniguns and rockets.. Not that I condem those, they are very useful, and very, very fun.
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The major point about melee place is in the postapo background.
Melee/unarmed should be the most popular in this way.
We have too much weapon/ammo quantity in my mind.
This breaks the repair need balance for gun also.
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The major point about melee place is in the postapo background.
Melee/unarmed should be the most popular in this way.
We have too much weapon/ammo quantity in my mind.
This breaks the repair need balance for gun also.
thats actualy a good point
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I just thought something to prevent gay kiting:
- Turning around takes time. Players can't just turn around instantly and start running, there could be a slight delay. Enough to get a hit with any melee weapon if the meleeman was close.
- Hitting someone in the back with melee causes high chance to be knocked down
So this way if you are chased by a melee dude, you can't kite him without taking damage in exchange.
thats actualy a good point
It is but there's long way to that. We got so many human encounters with guns that the game wouldn't stay mostly melee even for one hour.
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Here's an idea. With high enough melee or unarmed skill you have access to the perk "charge" which allows you to run faster than others when you've taken damage. You would need a VERY high level in one of these skills to prevent players from making charge/sniper hybrids. So basically only pure melee characters would have access to this perk.
Another idea, put a delay on aimed shots. The farther away someone is, the longer it takes to aim and hit them. No matter how fast you click the vats>eyes/arm/leg it will have a slight delay as you will be adjusting your gun to make the shot count. Higher weapon skill lowers this delay but it is still noticable
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Here's an idea. With high enough melee or unarmed skill you have access to the perk "charge" which allows you to run faster than others when you've taken damage. You would need a VERY high level in one of these skills to prevent players from making charge/sniper hybrids. So basically only pure melee characters would have access to this perk.
Why couldn't every char simply be able to perform quick few hex rushes but only forward? I mean changing one's running velocity or making quick sprints isn't some sort of magic trick. Such ability could have all kinds of uses, like crossing an alley quickly.
Another idea, put a delay on aimed shots. The farther away someone is, the longer it takes to aim and hit them. No matter how fast you click the vats>eyes/arm/leg it will have a slight delay as you will be adjusting your gun to make the shot count. Higher weapon skill lowers this delay but it is still noticable
This has been discussed in various occasions. The basic idea was that every gun needs some time to aim before the actual shot is cast. Melee weapons could have the bonus that you wouldn't need to spend time to aim.
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Why couldn't every char simply be able to perform quick few hex rushes but only forward? I mean changing one's running velocity or making quick sprints isn't some sort of magic trick. Such ability could have all kinds of uses, like crossing an alley quickly.
This has been discussed in various occasions. The basic idea was that every gun needs some time to aim before the actual shot is cast. Melee weapons could have the bonus that you wouldn't need to spend time to aim.
in regards to both of your posts. The sprint idea actually seems pretty cool. Perhaps it takes AP in real time to sprint? You have to press a button or hold down a key to initiate sprint. Each hex is 2 ap's allowing melee chars with high ap to sprint from cover to cover and prevent low ag snipers from sprint away. Also, melee chars will be able to hit the sniper soon after sprinting next to him since melee doesn't require much ap.
Yes, aimed shots should take time. Bursts obviously are an exception to this.
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in regards to both of your posts. The sprint idea actually seems pretty cool. Perhaps it takes AP in real time to sprint? You have to press a button or hold down a key to initiate sprint. Each hex is 2 ap's allowing melee chars with high ap to sprint from cover to cover and prevent low ag snipers from sprint away. Also, melee chars will be able to hit the sniper soon after sprinting next to him since melee doesn't require much ap.
Yes, aimed shots should take time. Bursts obviously are an exception to this.
taking ap could be a proble, i have an unarmed char and although my attacks are less costly in terms of ap its only by 2
anyways there still a problem that players can still avoid unarmed attacks (becouse of range 1) by simply walking away
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honestly melee attacks really arent that hard to land especially if you were moving faster than your target...... if someone wants to avoid your melee attack they also cannot fire on you. GG.
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honestly melee attacks really arent that hard to land especially if you were moving faster than your target...... if someone wants to avoid your melee attack they also cannot fire on you. GG.
think for a bit
this is what happens... melee runs towards enemy, enemy uses all ap at shooting if he scored a good amount of damage he stays and fight if not he runs away of the map