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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Kobebeaver on August 17, 2010, 01:16:07 pm
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Annoyed that you get raped by a Big Gun Guy running next to you ? Well there is an easy solution.. give Weapons are efficency range from Good Medicore and Bad symbolysing RL Battle Conditions. A Guy with a Minigun should be rather useless against a guy in HtH-range. And a Shotgun and a Pistol should own a Big Gun-guy. On the other hand increase benefits using weapons the way they are intended to, like buff Big Guns on Medium range and reduce their strangeth depending on the way it inflicts damage..
I have thought about 2 systems : first one is a reducement of accuaracy as a soft restraint, against running up to someone using superiour firepower or a weapon which should not be used at close range( e.g. Gatling Gun) and a hard restraint which means the player wont be able to aim the other one at a certain range... i think in RT battle the first one is more viable but the negative effect has to be high enough that players survive a burst...
Edit
Nah not burst weapons especially just the really big ones.. it should symbolise that people can avoid or make it harder for people to wield such a large weapon at really close quarter( means HtH +2 Hex distance) i dont want to make burst weapons impossible to use just a bit less efficent. So Minigunners dont get into point blank shootrange and mow you down with 300 HP hits.. this would strengthen and balance SG/BG weapons a bit... not all BG should be viable in close combat... and a sniper shots should cost one more ap in close combat symbolising that it is a diffrent handling.. i want encourage people using diffrent weapons concerining close quarter fighting medium range fights and long range fighting so people dont just tend to use one gun for all ranges... would make pistols and flamers shotguns far more important to the current system
feel free to discuss
Feel Free to discuss
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You mean point blank burst will be impossible? Are you serious? Burst weapon created for low range, and you want weapon which created for low range be useless at low range?
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I just say no.
Why you want help them more?
Blank shots can be bad for shooter (if low combat lvls) or good for shooter (if got elite lvls)
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This could be done by implementing new perks for weapons.
I have thought about 2 systems : first one is a reducement of accuaracy as a soft restraint
Won't affect if skill is 300% but will hurt if it's less. Unless the accuracy modifier is constant. For example a big gunner would always have maximum of 40% accuracy in close range, except flamer. But then again players should be allowed to concentrate on certain direction by spending some action points, time and line of sight. I mean think about it: you got m60, you point it towards a door and and someone steps in. It's not possible that you will most likely miss him.
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Why would bursting from a short range be worse? Your firing "cone" would just be smaller and you'd hit the same area with more bullets.
Rocket Launcher has an inbuilt system for this, in that you will hit yourself if they are too close ;)
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Nah not burst weapons especially just the really big ones.. it should symbolise that people can avoid or make it harder for people to wield such a large weapon at really close quarter( means HtH +2 Hex distance) i dont want to make burst weapons impossible to use just a bit less efficent. So Minigunners dont get into point blank shootrange and mow you down with 300 HP hits.. this would strengthen and balance SG/BG weapons a bit... not all BG should be viable in close combat... and a sniper shots should cost one more ap in close combat symbolising that it is a diffrent handling.. i want encourage people using diffrent weapons concerining close quarter fighting medium range fights and long range fighting so people dont just tend to use one gun for all ranges... would make pistols and flamers shotguns far more important to the current system
feel free to discuss
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Why would bursting from a short range be worse? Your firing "cone" would just be smaller and you'd hit the same area with more bullets.
Like Kobebeaver explained. In addition the weapon's length affects the speed which you can turn the gun. It might differ by tenths of second but that time can be matter of life and death in reality. In addition it's much easier to keep a light gun fixated at certain target for longer periods of time than a heavy one. Especially in urban warfare you might have to keep some window in your sights for 5 minutes or longer in case someone shows up.
Fonline or fallout didn't have these features and thus it became so that big guns dominated the close range.
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Doing this is the only way to balance weapons inside of a weapon Category .. Especially SG because they are so vastly diffrent because atm people just use sniper and AR in medium tier and other SMGs of T3 when being able to wield em.. no one out of pure thinking would use a shotgunt although it damage should be devasting and easier handed in close combat than a full auto gun or a 50 to 100 bullet burst gun.. in game mechanic lots of weapons suck because there are not weapon effictivity ranges...
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Doing this is the only way to balance weapons inside of a weapon Category .. Especially SG because they are so vastly diffrent because atm people just use sniper and AR in medium tier and other SMGs of T3 when being able to wield em.. no one out of pure thinking would use a shotgunt although it damage should be devasting and easier handed in close combat than a full auto gun or a 50 to 100 bullet burst gun.. in game mechanic lots of weapons suck because there are not weapon effictivity ranges...
Once we have auto-shoot feature which I heard was in the making we could include some sort of reflex-ability. This means that pistols, smgs and shotguns have the best reflex-shoot in close range and thus fire fastest and most accurately when encountering an enemy in close range. Big guns would have the worst.
Besides burts-firing big guns should be moved more towards support and area control role so that you can fire short bursts in longer periods of time without reloading rather than shooting bigass damage chunks instantly.
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The things you are talking about are much better represented by a "set-up" time before firing after moving. Though I don't really know if that'd be a fair thing to bring in - would make BGs very static.
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i dont know if it is OT thats why i started a new thread but you can combine this idea with these 2:
As in my other thread i was talking about effectivity ranges of weapons making them viable. I have 2 ideas making battles far more strategic they can be combined or just used seperately, but synergy is best when using both ideas:
I d like to introduce a timer when running up the enemy which makes shots very inacurate even when having a very high skill forcing players to stop gun running or running up blasting your head of from point blank range. this timer varies from gun to gun making diffrent guns useful in different situations.
Example1 : Player A has a MiniGun and is trying to get nearer to the opponent. He runs into his direction stops and then a timer starts e.g. 3 to 5 sec which reduces accuracy a lot so he has to settle down these 3 to 5 sec if he want to do a good shot or burst. Player B stood still and has no penality and can shoot with normal accuracy.
due to my browser i have to do a second post
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Kobebeaver
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Re: Balancing RT combat PVE and especially PvP
« Reply #1 on: Today at 01:59:30 pm »
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My 2nd idea is to deny usage of some guns for 2-3 seconds when running a short distance... This should be applied to stop people from running up with inapropriate guns for HtH distance. These 2-3 seconds give the stationary player the time for a good aimed first strike and would just be a penality for weapons which are big and cloby...
Example: Player A has a Minigun again and he runs up the enemy to finish him of in one burst.. while running up a timer starts and he cant use the gun immidiatly, because it is too large being adjusted while running... the big guy still can finish of the sg guy but the sg guy eg gets a chance of first strike and can use the advantage of having handier guns...
These 2 ideas combined with distance of walking as calculator rather you cant use your gun or just with heavy penalities would balance big and small guns completely
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Though I don't really know if that'd be a fair thing to bring in - would make BGs very static.
This is how big weapons are handled. But they wouldn't be completely static, just the most static of the 3 gun types, except sniper. The way support gunner acts is that he secures an area with his overwhelming firerate and starts moving onwards once it looks safe or too bad to remain. Big guns would have restricted styles to play but that's because the skills are divided into big guns, small guns and energy weapons. Of course we could have big guns more designed for fast position changes but they would trade it off by dealing less damage, having smaller clip or smaller range. Flamer could be such weapon since you don't really have to aim with it in reality. You could also do aoe with flamer by firing it inside small to medium rooms and behind corners.
Example1 : Player A has a MiniGun and is trying to get nearer to the opponent. He runs into his direction stops and then a timer starts e.g. 3 to 5 sec which reduces accuracy a lot so he has to settle down these 3 to 5 sec if he want to do a good shot or burst. Player B stood still and has no penality and can shoot with normal accuracy.
It could be either accuracy or not being able to shoot. The point was who gets the first best shot. But 2-5 seconds is way too much and needless. It could be just tenths of second since we are going to get autoshoot anyway.
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i really dislike the idea of autoshot, but thats just me ^^ anyway 2 seconds is not such a long time but makes a player being able to react even a casual one... the game is not an emergency where you are in state of high adrenaline like in a nearly happened car accident where you can react in tenth of a second thats why i think 2 seconds is perfectly alright...
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i really dislike the idea of autoshot, but thats just me ^^ anyway 2 seconds is not such a long time but makes a player being able to react even a casual one... the game is not an emergency where you are in state of high adrenaline like in a nearly happened car accident where you can react in tenth of a second thats why i think 2 seconds is perfectly alright...
Why two seconds or more is bad: a minigunner guy walks in a house where you are pointing a shotgun at his direction, sees you and just walks away. All that fits in 2 seconds if the minigunner just pays a little attention and has the typical mouse-control of a gamer.
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okay thats a valid point, but i want to give to consider that most battles are fought in the open or where your scenario just will never apply..
i just want guns overall balanced and making them more useful.. all and not having 90 diffrent weapons where just 2 or 3 are used because the others are inferior and weapon range effectifity helps a lot, and the other 2 ideas need to be overthought...
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okay thats a valid point, but i want to give to consider that most battles are fought in the open or where your scenario just will never apply..
It applies to guns which have this waiting time in long or medium range. A player with worse gun could always run if he finds an enemy within the bad range of his gun. You can run about 10 squares in 2 seconds (just tested). That's why the character's reaction time when seeing an enemy has to be fairly small so that you can get at least few shots from the advantegeous positioning you chose. They don't have to be instakills ofcourse but powerful enough to give you again a medicore checkpoint on the path to killing this dude.
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RT battle just feels very wrong i have to admit... it is completely unbanced
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RT battle just feels very wrong i have to admit... it is completely unbanced
And TB battle = who are more jet enough to run across from one room to another to get closer to you to burst you after, because everyone simply sitting in cover, losing 1 AP to walk out from cover, see that they can't shoot at anyone and then return to cover, so this battle will lasts till someone's mistake or x2 jet junkie. There's no turn interception in fallout, so turn based in Player vs Player won't work properly. Real Time has nothing with fallout, but it's the only way how to make combat normally
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actually that feels wrong too^^ but thats why i suggest my balance ideas. to make all weapons more often used instead of just the 3 currently best. and to get that game a new faccette of complexity which does not annoy the player but improves gameplay
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The problem stems from the pure statistics of the weapons so far, made generally for a TB game and a singleplayer one at that. With the facet of Multiplayer to these weapon and categories, there should be other esoteric benefits/flaws to using certain weaponry, which is not present due to... probably limiting game engine, at least originally. One of the parts of this being: BGers running. Looks funny. Without altering all what it does, imagine how it would change if they simply could not run. Good? Bad? Dunno really unless it was tested in RT, but let that be an example of how you may change combat and how it is handled without having to tinker the actual stats (Though they DO need to be tinkered)
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One of the parts of this being: BGers running. Looks funny.
Not really. Of course you can run with SAW or similar light machine guns, the marines in iraq do that every day. There's hardly any difference in speed compared to running with assault rifle because the weight difference between saw and m4 is like some kilos. The weight of the other gear (backpack, vest, helmet) and marine's personal endurance matter more. When it comes to running with either saw, pistol or assault rifle the thing that matters is how fast you're ready to fire accurately when you stop running. In fonline there is no factor relating to this and so miniguns are the ultimate weapons, they are used like assault rifles.
Another factor is how long you can keep your gun fixated at a direction. That's why light machine guns got bipods or tripods so that they can be placed on ground, shot while prone or supported by a wall or table but turning the gun from that position over 90 degrees is difficult. In fonline your character can stand having his gun ready to shoot forever.
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Cooldowns for, erm, shooting? Are you guys serious or just drunk?
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Cooldowns for, erm, shooting? Are you guys serious or just drunk?
It makes sense. Which one you manage to turn faster in a direction of your choice: a pen or an iron bar?
But all the same, the distance benefits/penalties can be anything. For example pistol could cost 2 aps less to shoot from 10 hexes or less because it's faster to aim. Whatever but the reaction time or accuracy modifier just seemed most logical.
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Sure you can run with a SAW or m60 but imagine the effectivnes of fire while running. If you want to fire a BG like the minigun or a rocket launcher you have to stand still. And can you imagine walking inside a tight corridor with a minigun?
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Wow, seriously. If you want realism add food system not the fucking combat nerfs.
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This is no combat nerfing... this is balancing combat to be more interesting - to have more classes with various roles in battles, not just main force and sneak scouts as now.
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Once we have auto-shoot feature which I heard was in the making we could include some sort of reflex-ability.
I saw that. What is the 'auto shoot' feature?
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Sorry for very long post again...
No, really.
I simply can't explain it in few words!
Read from green line if you don't want to read this all.
This is no combat nerfing... this is balancing combat to be more interesting - to have more classes with various roles in battles, not just main force and sneak scouts as now.
Make an aim for combat different?
Right now it's: Eliminate enemy's team and anyone else who came to wrong place at wrong time.
Of couse they will use powerbuilds, 4 types of weapon (best SG, best EW, best BG and best throwing), etc.
What they will do:
See enemy, kill him, then again kill and kill and kill, when people on one side will end it's win.
What reason? Town Control... if you kill enemy's gang, town thinks that you're cool and you're becoming town controller.
What can be changed?
As example Gecko:
They coming there, shooting at everything that moves that has a name above. It's like ghouls asked them to purify thier land from other players and they will be happy and you'll control town?
Why not make TC quest-like, with roles and not only stupid eliminating everything that moves? It can be done like that:
1) Gang max of 5 players, 10vs10 isn't fallout + you'll understand later why there must be not so many players + it'll allow small gangs without alliances participate at this, because agan you'll read later that number of players in teams locked and others can't join, so there will be no help and fair number vs number fight.
2) Thier leader must be party leader (have atleast 5 CH), I hope devs will make that you can take only 1 drug at a time of only one type, so mentats will give only 2 CH and it means while mentats in effect leader can't take any other drugs and anyway must have atleast 3 base CH, or there will be less than 5 members and it'll be very very hard, or with the same eat-drugs-as-much-as-you-want system then there will be no CH based characters, and TC will simply require there x2 mentats if all 5 characters will have 1 CH.
3) You talk to Harold or whoever else, I don't know, it's roleplayers/quest-makes should think about it, he/she/it asks you and your followers to repair something at reactor because it's again broken, as always.
4) You're going to reactor and there your last hope to refuse to complete this quest or else there will be no way back, you talk to ghoul on reception, say everything you been asked to do, etc. Since now you can't leave area, untill you complete quest or die or something even worse.
Reactor should become restricted area, so noone can go past reception room if he isn't participant of quest.
Aim of quest:
Come to ghoul in other part of reactor, ask him to give you mega-tool-to-repair-some-stuff-so-ghouls-will-be-happy, on the half way to him something will happen with reactor and all doors will stuck. You'll need lockpicker with electronic lockpick (which isn't implemented, but it can be, because it exist in fallout) to open doors, or use traps skill for dynamite and explode doors or use science skill on terminal to slice system and open rooms. That ghoul will be crazy so one of characters must make succesful speech skill check or else he will say that he'll not give that damned thing to anyone then he'll mumble something about damned humans who came to thier reactor and because of humans something had broken again and then ghouls become hostile to you, so you'll have to use your combat skills to eliminate them.
5) After obtaining that tool or whatever you must make your way through all reactor to other part where you need to put/use that thing on something that broken and very need for ghouls being happy (no, it's not TV set with porn movie, but who knows).
6) All that time from 1) to 5) there will be another gang, some other ghoul who don't want to see other ghouls very happy says to them (other gang) to kill that humans who want to make ghouls happy at reactor.
There will be:
Atleast 2 terminals, every command will require science check to operate or else terminal will shut down for 20 seconds.
Commands like:
observe room #X (almost all rooms at reactor, except for essential rooms where are terminals, electricity thing and a room with broken thing that makes ghouls happy)
- after observing room you'll see this room on your screen with all ghouls/players/sneaking players there.
- [science check] you can open/lock doors at this room for like 30 seconds, locked doors can be opened only with explosive or electronic lockpick with normal traps/lockpick skills, terminal will be unavaible for 20 seconds after this command.
- [science check] you can remove radiation protection in that room for 20 seconds, so everyone except for ghouls will take high dose of radiation from reactor, if these players forgot to take some rad-x/away, then they have big problems.
There will be 1 or more electricity generator that supplies terminal, using repair skill on it with succeful check will shut down all terminals on 1 minute, regardless of succeful check or not, you'll get cooldown on repair skill for like 2 minutes.
With mines impletemnted (and adequte guards at guarded towns) traps skill will be really usefull there 'cause of corridors and small space to lay/spot/disarm mines.
Sneak skill is good because there're few (max 5) players, assassinating one of them will make real advantage, especially if this gang have only one specialist in one skill, so killing scientist means they can't use terminal, killing repairman means you can use terminal and they can't block it, killing trapper means you can lay mines and they will suffer much of this, etc.
So, now about 2nd gang:
1) You're going to some ghoul who don't want other ghouls being happy.
2) You're walking in reactor, lying to reception ghoul that you're here to help these guy (speech skill check)
2a) Speech check succeful: Ghoul believes you, they're not hostile to you.
2b) Speech check failed: Ghoul shouts on all map your name (who talked to him and failed speech skill) and everything he thinks about you and your parents, so other gang can hear it and know that 2nd gang failed. Ghouls become hostile to 2nd gang.
3) 2nd gang starts from other room, 1st gang can't wait 2nd gang there, because till 2nd gang take part, 1st gang can't talk to crazy ghoul, and if noone will come to participate, then 1st gang only need to talk to crazy ghoul, (kill ghouls, if speech check failed), and bring that thing to broken thing that makes all ghouls happy.
4) Now, after all doors shut because of ...something happened to reactor or may be that thing that makes all ghouls happy. And 2nd gang must eliminate all member(s) of 1st gang.
There 5 max members, they can be combat skill+needed skill variation, so he plays 1 role, or 2-3 skills in one, but bad in combat (gecko-TC-non-combat-powerbuild) with lockpick repair and science tagged.
1 sitting in terminal room to support allies with cameras to see where are enemies and see sneakers.
2nd protects 1st.
3rd sitting at generator to shut both terminals if they hostile gang will do something bad.
4th protects 3rd.
5th going to bring that thing to repair ghoul-happy-maker thing.
or 1st and 3rd sitting without protection and 3 other guys are going to do main job killing everything on sight or going to capture and keep both terminals to remove possibility to control rooms, but also they must capture and keep generator, 5 people isn't enough, so they will need to think what to do, or they all 5 can just be powerbuilds and kill everything on sight, the only problem that 1 terminal or mines of locked doors may kill them all.
Skills used at this TC:
all combat skills (to kill...)
repair (very useful, counter science)
science (almost essential)
traps (depends on what will be implemented)
speech (optional, but will make it much easier)
sneak can be useful
That's just an example, and you don't need to make battles more various, just leave it as it is at Fallout but make main aim of player interation not "just kill them all with these guns", but something else, it'll take alot time, and even if it'll be in FOnline someday, you won't see that soon. Balancing weapon can be done after making gameplay interesting at all.
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LOOOOONG wall of text
But seriously, its good. Im for it really, currently its only a few big gangs that are important. rest is a nothing.
This way any small gang can be a hero for a day
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But seriously, its good. Im for it really, currently its only a few big gangs that are important. rest is a nothing.
This way any small gang can be a hero for a day
That's good that you said that, but my aim was to show that changing gameplay will make combat less dependant on killing with guns only, so balancing weapon should be done after combat changed, of couse if it'll be changed someday.
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Wow. I mean realy I'm impressed. That might work. Finaly have a use for those skills such as science or traps besides crafting. And they can differ between cities. Why not need gambling in New Reno?
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Why not need gambling in New Reno?
If Gambling skill will be passive skill check without player involving, then: Gambling-Alts with 10 LK and 300% gambling.
If gambling will affect only reputation boost from win of game and on max bet, but game itself depending only on player himself, and having X% in gambling will allow to character to unlock quest to have unique perk/possibility/unlock something/give some benefit, then it can be used by some characters, like... main characters. But this benefit shouldn't simply compensate skill points spent on gambling, because everyone will have this X% in gambling then.
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I do not see Gambling being used in-game much. Because frankly, as it was mentioned, it will just be alt'ed out of existence. Kinda sad, but so far, that is the type of MMO that this is at the present time. If we are lucky, there will be an interesting use for it in the future... far, far future. :P
Yes, another 'nerf weapons' idea: Bg bursting makes no sense to me. You have an uber skill at BG, lol, who doesn't... but standing up, and managing to keep your gun on target to make 95% of your bullets always hit ? That... is just No. BG either needs a different to-hit formula, or something inherent to the weapon that increases it's spread/gives it a flat-max to-hit %, dependent on range. The downside will not matter if you are firing into a mob (any missed bullets on the actual target might hit other targets on their way, or miss and hit beside/behind that) ... which to me is what something like a BG is more meant for.
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I think this idea didn't come from TC experienced player because anyone who fights in TC fights can't support this idea... Because you have 2 sides in TC. You have attackers and defenders. In 99% od fights defenders are camped in some building so if you want attack them you need some big guners and if this big guners run into building they need to shoot imediately. If they have 2 seconds run-shoot cooldown they are probably going to die before they can shoot more than once because they got knockouts and bursts from camped miniguners which can shoot imediately... This 2 seconds means difference between life or death... I can shoot 3 bursts in row so most of not psycho chars are dead before their run-shoot cooldown ends.
I don't know why all players hate miniguners... Miniguner can be killed by sniper too. Sniper can easily take down miniguner by 1 long knock out... Most of miniguners are on psycho but they wear CAs so they can be killed by lasers or rocket launchers. It's only about players inteligence... If you are asshole sniper you stay in building and wait for enemy. If you are clewer sniper you find some area where you can use your long range... If you are asshole big guner you are running around all town and looking for enemy. If you are clewer big guner you find some building and camp inside.
Great power build isn't everything... Thats all folks.
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This makes rather alot of sense: Camped weapons that are there before hand are supposed to have the upper hand. The fact that people camp en masse is not the issue of the weapon mechanics themselves, but are a result of the players attitudes and current situations in-game.
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*Cough*
Auto-shoot...now i am seriously curious...what is it?
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*Cough*
Auto-shoot...now i am seriously curious...what is it?
currently with the use of some plugins its possible to avoid the aiming interface and insta eye shoot somoene.
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@Solar
A Set-Up-Timer will not solve the problem entirely that's why i posted my other ideas itself that people tend to just use the best gun avaible not taking into account that some guns are better in close combats some in medium and others in long range combat, that would lead to the situation that people would use tactic to get into perfect firing range and avoid the weaknesses of the guns. At the moment the closer the better is a fact, and thats sad somehow..
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I do not see Gambling being used in-game much. Because frankly, as it was mentioned, it will just be alt'ed out of existence. Kinda sad, but so far, that is the type of MMO that this is at the present time. If we are lucky, there will be an interesting use for it in the future... far, far future. :P
Yes, another 'nerf weapons' idea: Bg bursting makes no sense to me. You have an uber skill at BG, lol, who doesn't... but standing up, and managing to keep your gun on target to make 95% of your bullets always hit ? That... is just No. BG either needs a different to-hit formula, or something inherent to the weapon that increases it's spread/gives it a flat-max to-hit %, dependent on range. The downside will not matter if you are firing into a mob (any missed bullets on the actual target might hit other targets on their way, or miss and hit beside/behind that) ... which to me is what something like a BG is more meant for.
Machine guns are used for taking over and holding sectors by forcing enemies to duck or die under the superior firerate. What this means ingame is that burst fire big guns should be able to fire longer without the need to reload. It could be used to effectively kill one person or cause damage to a group in small area.
currently with the use of some plugins its possible to avoid the aiming interface and insta eye shoot somoene.
And as far as I understood it's going to be a feature sooner or later so that players don't have to aim and shoot manually.
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Machine guns are used for taking over and holding sectors by forcing enemies to duck or die under the superior firerate. What this means ingame is that burst fire big guns should be able to fire longer without the need to reload. It could be used to effectively kill one person or cause damage to a group in small area.
This is Fallout... holding sectors by supressive fire? From who? For who? Wasteland around, these 15v15 fights at towns isn't supposued to be normal, BG is one of classes of weapon to kill.
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This is Fallout... holding sectors by supressive fire? From who? For who? Wasteland around, these 15v15 fights at towns isn't supposued to be normal, BG is one of classes of weapon to kill.
Yes machine guns hold areas. From who? Your enemies. For who? You or your friends.
I don't know what's exactly going to be the future of pvp but it will most likely contain invidual or groups of players fighting in various enviroments. Enviroments have areas which you can look over and those are called sectors. A sector is an alley, a room or a clearing. Machine gunner works so that he positions himself in places where he most likely gets the best benefit from his superior firerate. Like keeping his gun fixated in a tunnel or doorway. When the situation seems most suitable he moves on and takes over a new sector. He certainly doesn't run all the time, kick doors in, storm rooms alone or instantly turn 180 degrees and fire with perfect precision.
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Yes machine guns hold areas. From who? Your enemies. For who? You or your friends.
I don't know what's exactly going to be the future of pvp but it will most likely contain invidual or groups of players fighting in various enviroments. Enviroments have areas which you can look over and those are called sectors. A sector is an alley, a room or a clearing. Machine gunner works so that he positions himself in places where he most likely gets the best benefit from his superior firerate. Like keeping his gun fixated in a tunnel or doorway. When the situation seems most suitable he moves on and takes over a new sector. He certainly doesn't run all the time, kick doors in, storm rooms alone or instantly turn 180 degrees and fire with perfect precision.
Well it's better to stay near doorway and burst in pointblank everything that comes from it, then lay (only dead and unconscious do it in Fallout) somewhere in "position" (simple ground which doesn't provide any cover, because this is Fallout) and burst from long distance at target, not at ground at its direction (because you can't shoot at ground, because it's Fallout). And why do someone need to sit (noone can sit in Fallout, except for Gizmo and Overseer) somewhere with minigun and camp, if BG can be used as alternative to aimed shots from SG/EW as bursting at short distance and throwing rockets at long distance at couple of enemies.
And yes, a guy with minigun should run all the time, but not kick doors (you can't kick doors at Fallout), storm rooms alone and instantly turn 180 degrees and fire with perfect precision, because it's Fallout!
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And yes, a guy with minigun should run all the time, but not kick doors (you can't kick doors at Fallout), storm rooms alone and instantly turn 180 degrees and fire with perfect precision, because it's Fallout!
And if this remains snipers and big guns will be the only suitable options. We're here to think of new roles for weapons and unfortunately this means that machine guns have to give away some of their abilities.
It's not fallout, it's fonline. It means that we only need to follow the background story of fallout and even this can be bent when needed. How a minigun works ingame has nothing to do with fallout's storyline.
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Well it's better to stay near doorway and burst in pointblank everything that comes from it, then lay (only dead and unconscious do it in Fallout) somewhere in "position" (simple ground which doesn't provide any cover, because this is Fallout) and burst from long distance at target, not at ground at its direction (because you can't shoot at ground, because it's Fallout). And why do someone need to sit (noone can sit in Fallout, except for Gizmo and Overseer) somewhere with minigun and camp, if BG can be used as alternative to aimed shots from SG/EW as bursting at short distance and throwing rockets at long distance at couple of enemies.
And yes, a guy with minigun should run all the time, but not kick doors (you can't kick doors at Fallout), storm rooms alone and instantly turn 180 degrees and fire with perfect precision, because it's Fallout!
also keep in mind that because the "balance" we have now just a handful of guns are viable for combat, others are never used.. isnt this a shame ?
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I don't know why you guys so hate miniguners...:-\ Miniguners should be greatest fighters because most of miniguners need avenger minigun, BA, 1000 5mm AP, psycho, jet and super stims. So this miniguners in one unsuccessful action loose equip which has value from 40k to 45k of caps... (15k avenger, 15k BA, ammo 10k-15k and drugs and stimps 3-4k) so this big gunes are most expensive in game... In 1 action this guy fire out ammo for at least 10k caps...
So if you want nerf miniguners, you should do cheaper miniguns and ammo because playing big guner is not fun, if you play alone with fast relog and craft all your stuff alone you need 1 day work for 1 action (if you loose)...
And small guns aren't useless, you can use small guns for sneakers, sneaker with P90 with AP ammo can easily kill lonely sniper. Only thing why P90 is useless now is small cartridge-maybe this is one of options to make small guns more useful? But it doesn't matter I saw like grease gun sneaker killed sniper. So there isn't problem in weapons. Yes, they are weak, but attack costs less AP then BG, so you can without jet shoot 3 bursts... BG needs for 3 bursts drugs and without drugs they are useless-e.g. my BG can shoot 1 burst without jet...
I saw guy with pancor jackhammer defending Gecko reactor, staying in door, defending from sneakers-this is how can be weapon with cheap ammo used.
I think there isn't so big problem in weapons, I think some part of this problem is in players, cause they see only one way in using weapons.
And there is plan of nerfing drugs and fast shot after wipe... Fast shot will not affect big guns and drugs will be weaker so BGs will be for 1 burts weaker...
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And there is plan of nerfing drugs and fast shot after wipe... Fast shot will not affect big guns and drugs will be weaker so BGs will be for 1 burts weaker...
There will be other changes ontop of these too ;)
Only thing why P90 is useless now is small cartridge
p90c and Jackhammer will both have magazines big enough to hold 3 shots. (up from 2 now). AR, Tommy Guns and Grease Guns will have expanded magazines, though they will still hold the same number of "shots" as they do now.
... and because I've now been let loose on weapons, other things besides these too :)
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There will be other changes ontop of these too ;)
But what you do to fast shot?
It's already fine (or i think so..)
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Fast Shot will only work on shots that could have aimed. Ie an unaimed pistol or rifle shot.
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Mhm... I don't think that's a good idea though ;/ It will make many builds unuseful. Fast Shot won't be used at all I think :<
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It will make a good deal more builds useful and Fast Shot should still be used.
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Assault rifles, shotguns and SMGs has sinlge and bursts.
It means only thier single shot will consume on 1 AP less.
Or it means thier single shot and burst will conusme on 1 AP less?
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How it should be used still?
I dont think it's good to shot unaimed hit from laser/sniper which already means that you are sniper?
Same with any pistol. No one will take this trait only for 1ap less for shot which wont be better than burst.
Stupid idea I think.
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How it should be used still?
I dont think it's good to shot unaimed hit from laser/sniper which already means that you are sniper?
Same with any pistol. No one will take this trait only for 1ap less for shot which wont be better than burst.
Stupid idea I think.
If it'll decrease AP usage for all shooting types for weapon which has snigle shot mode, then SMGs, ARs and SGs bursts will have more advantage over BG burst.
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Assault rifles, shotguns and SMGs has sinlge and bursts.
It means only thier single shot will consume on 1 AP less.
Or it means thier single shot and burst will conusme on 1 AP less?
Fast Shot will only work on shots that could have aimed. Ie an unaimed pistol or rifle shot.
Only the unaimed shot.
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If it'll decrease AP usage for all shooting types for weapon which has snigle shot mode, then SMGs, ARs and SGs bursts will have more advantage over BG burst.
Only the unaimed shot.
So, its useless.
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If you say so, I couldn't possibly argue against such in depth analysis.
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So, its useless.
Yes. ;p
Whatever it's useless for SG, but it's good if your enemy has BG and you're EW/SG ;p
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Explain me what's wrong in actual fast shot?
Or what's wrong in making it only for small guns even if you want to nerf bg?
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Explain me what's wrong in actual fast shot?
Or what's wrong in making it only for small guns even if you want to nerf bg?
Because if you're going to burst your whole character life it's not trait?
Why do you need ability to aim if you use minigun? It's a waste, fast shot removes this ability, so you lose nothing, but -1 AP to shoot.
The only problem, that unaimed single shots in RT is useless, and can be used only in TB normally.
I mean in TB you can use 14mm pistol as 14mm SMG with fast shot and BRoF, shooting 2 AP per shot, making it single-shot-like burst so every bullet hits target not fly in cone, so its the same if you burst in point blank from 14mm SMG.
In RT you'll need to persuade your enemy to wait and don't move from your FoV and not burst you, and if he'll agree, then you may click on him many time and wait till animation of shooting like x6 x7 times in a row, and only then say to him, that he can move or kill you, if he is still alive.
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The 2 major reasons, though there are more are:
1. Its a trait with no downside, unless applied to single shot weapons. This is lame. (If I could be bothered changing all weapons around to get rid of BRoF I would, must have perks suck)
2. It allows a new class of people to be created. (Well, its not new, its just rare/non existant in PvP).
Bursters/Single Shotters/Snipers
LA is already synergetic with this, but it is basically only decent on 14mm and Plasma pistols. Just requires new perks and its good to go.
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2. It allows a new class of people to be created. (Well, its not new, its just rare/non existant in PvP).
Bursters/Single Shotters/Snipers
New class of people to be created? Burster? It exist, and with removing fast shot they will dissapear at all.
Single Shotters? What's good in it? Nothing if shots aren't aimed and you want them no aimed. Snipers? They exist and prospere very well atm. and removing fast shot wont help in increasing their count.
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I mean in TB you can use 14mm pistol as 14mm SMG with fast shot and BRoF, shooting 2 AP per shot, making it single-shot-like burst so every bullet hits target not fly in cone, so its the same if you burst in point blank from 14mm SMG.
What the hell man?
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What the hell man?
It's 14mm Pistol in TB with fast shot and BRoF.
In TB you can shoot entire clip from 14mm pistol with fast shot and BRoF, shooting bullets one by one means all will hit target (exclude misses with 95%...), because it's not burst.
In RT it'll consume alot time till animation after each shot, so you'll be able to shoot only once may be twice, till "target will be blocked" or you're dead already.
So it's TB-only build.
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Fast Shot won't work for any burst mode, doesn't matter if it's SG or BG. Bursts will cost 1 AP more from now :< And I made a clean BG sneaker who does 2 bursts in a row, now it will be not possible(well, if i took 2 action boys... but waste of perks) :<
And these SG bursters who did 3 bursts in a row with 9 AP now could make only 2, they would have to get 12 AP to make 3.
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Add LA for +5 damage to each shot, applied after armour is worked out. For a pistol its a certain 25 extra damage over 10 AP, even a mauser shooting BA.
With decreasing the "Alpha strike" of things like Avengers (capable of opening up with 2 shots instead of 3) the consistent damage of this type of build is given more of a chance. Especially when it gets boosted.
New class of people to be created? Burster? It exist, and with removing fast shot they will dissapear at all.
Single Shotters? What's good in it? Nothing if shots aren't aimed and you want them no aimed. Snipers? They exist and prospere very well atm. and removing fast shot wont help in increasing their count.
::)
Fast Shot won't work for any burst mode, doesn't matter if it's SG or BG. Bursts will cost 1 AP more from now :< And I made a clean BG sneaker who does 2 bursts in a row, now it will be not possible(well, if i took 2 action boys... but waste of perks) :<
And these SG bursters who did 3 bursts in a row with 9 AP now could make only 2, they would have to get 12 AP to make 3.
Ah yes, this is not a coincidence ;)
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I approve of our sexy new gunslinger overlords.
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You mean point blank burst will be impossible? Are you serious? Burst weapon created for low range, and you want weapon which created for low range be useless at low range?
Lol exactly. So what OP is saying that if a minigun were to be pressed against your stomach, the chance of you dying after the trigger is pulled would be 0%... WORST IDEA EVER.
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Lol exactly. So what OP is saying that if a minigun were to be pressed against your stomach, the chance of you dying after the trigger is pulled would be 0%... WORST IDEA EVER.
Actually I think he's implying you could rush the gunner and start stabbing him in the face without kindly standing a meter away from his body infront of those mean smoking barrels he has attached to a chainfed electric engine.
In fact I liked the idea so much I drew a picture of what it could mean for the game.
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z155/Stegesaurus1985/Combat.jpg)
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Nice way to picture it. Hope it'll happen
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Yeah "Fonline now" is how it should be. Just leave it as it is.
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guns dont have a minimum range. In fact, in real life, you have more chance to hit a target point blank than from far away. This suggestion MAKES NO SENSE. So we should make it so that the closer a player is the EASIER it is to hit the dude with your gun.
Scenario:
Joe sticks his minigun in bobs mouth
bob gives joe the go-ahead with a thumbs up
Joe fires off a 40 round burst but, due to the minimum range restriction, the bullets seem to seep out the side of bobs mouth and miss him completely...
That is what would happen if this were to come to fruition.
Actually I think he's implying you could rush the gunner and start stabbing him in the face without kindly standing a meter away from his body infront of those mean smoking barrels he has attached to a chainfed electric engine.
In fact I liked the idea so much I drew a picture of what it could mean for the game.
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z155/Stegesaurus1985/Combat.jpg)
Id like to see you try this realistic combat scenario in real life. Oh and be sure to include in your will: send pictures of my bullet filled body to borse.
You can't stand on the same hex as someone else so your little knife move will never work. Let's keep Fonline the way it is.
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I liked the minimal range because i had to use secondary weapon in rooms,... . But it is sad if you die and you have to craft 2 new weapons instead of 1.
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blah
Except the guns not in his mouth in the picture, and it's not in your mouth in game either. In game the muzzle of the barrels extends PAST the character adacent to them if they're side by side. Believe it or not, guns do infact have a minimum range, it's called the muzzle, and if you're standing behind it and it's not a cannon or a large calibre weapon it'll be fairly harmless (cannons being the exception, walk past the second wheeldrive on a tanks treading and you're risking serious concussive injury and possibly death from the air displacement of the muzzle blast itself). Hand weapons on the other hand can not produce that kind of force, because no one could actually hold a weapon putting out that kind of power.
Also - it's a heavy electric motor with bullets and barrels and Bob took advantage of the fact that it's designed to be mounted on a damned vehicle to push it ASIDE easily because joe is already off balance just holding something that should be mounted on an assault vehicle and would be practically impossible for Joe to actually fire AT ALL under any sort of control without seriously injuring or more likely just killing himself and Bob at the same time. That's how it would be if you wanted absolute realism, miniguns would be removed from the game period as hand weapons - they'd be restricted to vehicles and powered armor wearers at the very least.
And no I don't need to hope in front of a minigun to test it, I personally don't have the speed or skill to charge a minigun wielder (lol) in real life however in game the fantastic is possible (using miniguns effectively by hand for example) so why is this so far fetched an idea for you?Why do you need to get personal about it more importantly?
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Also - it's a heavy electric motor with bullets and barrels and Bob took advantage of the fact that it's designed to be mounted on a damned vehicle
What the fuck? The nuclear war started in 2077, are you trying to say people were unable to invent ANY hand-held miniguns? Anyway I saw a minigun shot full-auto for few seconds in Predator movie, that's enough because we are playing the game about future and it's sci-fi so anything could happen.
to push it ASIDE easily because joe is already off balance just holding something that should be mounted on an assault vehicle and would be practically impossible for Joe to actually fire AT ALL under any sort of control without seriously injuring or more likely just killing himself and Bob at the same time.
Don't compare miniguns we know to those that may appear 60 years later. Also what are you saying is already in-game. If Joe would have 1 str and he would carry a minigun, without any knowledge about them whatsoever (40% BG skill), then yes - he wouldn't hit Bob even at point blank. But in this case Joe is a bulky motherfucker with 7 str and he has wide knowledge about baby cannons (200% BG skill?) so YES he will kill Bob without any problem.
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What the fuck? The nuclear war started in 2077, are you trying to say people were unable to invent ANY hand-held miniguns? Anyway I saw a minigun shot full-auto for few seconds in Predator movie, that's enough because we are playing the game about future and it's sci-fi so anything could happen.
Don't compare miniguns we know to those that may appear 60 years later. Also what are you saying is already in-game. If Joe would have 1 str and he would carry a minigun, without any knowledge about them whatsoever (40% BG skill), then yes - he wouldn't hit Bob even at point blank. But in this case Joe is a bulky motherfucker with 7 str and he has wide knowledge about baby cannons (200% BG skill?) so YES he will kill Bob without any problem.
Rage man.
Also that was kind of my point. It's okay for Joe to be super skilled and strong enough to maneuver a minigun in a close quarters combat scenario with the same speed and assurance and control as a dude with a hand gun for example? That seems a little ridiculous. If the assailant has gotten into close range with a machine gunner, even in real life, you're in a lot of trouble. Once someone has slipped past your muzzle and rushed your in close quarters combat you'd better damn well know what you're doing (special forces, literally) or you're probably going to die. That's just how it is. It isn't easy getting through a machine gunners arc of fire in an open field but CQC is a whole different ball game - it can take an infantry platoon or a SWAT team (no ones crazy enough to try that crap individually - you'll die there's no way you can react fast enough to all the angles in so tight a space as those found in room clearing drills) to safely clear a two story house for example.
All the OP is suggesting is that that be taken into account.
It doesn't get easier the closer you are in real life. Guns ARE NOT designed for close quarters combat, they wouldn't launch projectiles if they were. They developed and evolved in response to mass open ground warfare and their limitations REALLY show when they're taken out of that element - especially the larger guns. You don't do room clearing with heavy machine guns if you can avoid it. A heavier gun simply CAN NOT move in close quarters as well as a smaller one it's just a matter of sheer size mechanics which currently aren't implemented in any form in the game but maybe could be, so the OP spurred discussion about it, and I made a MS paint comic joking about it.
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Are you trying to tell me that you would risk lives of your men just to clear the building on the wasteland? Those buildings are just old, pre-war, almost destroyed piles of bricks. I would use a minigun for that kind of job to just blast throught the whole building, killing everyone inside. But, oh wait. Buildings are indestructible! That's not realistic, even thought - you didn't mention that. What else is unrealistic? Let's see:
-miniguns with only burst option - you can't shoot for any period of time using any amounts of ammo you want
-people don't die from starvation or lack of water
-travelling is incredibly fast
-bullets don't kill you in single shots! (or at least hurt you badly)
-you respawn after dying(!) (critical)
-you can craft high-tech guns from the infinite amounts of iron found in old mines
and so on, and so on...
After the long list of unrealistic things in this game, yours appear:
-guns have no minimum range
Considering how the WHOLE game has very little to do with real-life situations your suggestion to make the game more realistic is incredibly stupid, out of place and guess what: IT'S NOT REALISTIC in terms of in-game realism.
All this suggestion was meant just to nerf minigunners because some wannabe-Avatar fan tried to beat highly skilled soldier with minigun, using only sticks and rocks (like in the movie, yep).
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See Total Influence -> Guns have a minimum range which sucks ass. If a player is right in front of you your m16 can't hit him, only your pistol, melee weapon, or shotgun. LAME.
http://tionline.ru/ Main Website in Russian -> Playable in English with very rude Russian players (LOL)
Youtube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=total+influence+&aq=f
I personally think it just doesn't work. In RL no matter how close I am to you I can shoot you. But if a Rocket Launcher had a min range it might work, but defy the purpose of "Kamakazi."
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Considering how the WHOLE game has very little to do with real-life situations your suggestion to make the game more realistic is incredibly stupid, out of place and guess what: IT'S NOT REALISTIC in terms of in-game realism.
Wrong. Even if the game has many features which aren't realistic it doesn't mean that a suggestion close to realism automatically sucks. Otherwise it would be completely okay to suggest - according to your logic - that we could salvage electricity out of stones. I mean screw the realism, the rest of the game isn't realism so let's just implement this. But if the stones were changed to old batteries the suggestion would suck - according to you - since it's more realistic :o
See Total Influence -> Guns have a minimum range which sucks ass. If a player is right in front of you your m16 can't hit him, only your pistol, melee weapon, or shotgun. LAME.
Who's talking about not being able to shoot completely? So far it's only been accuracy penalty. The motivation of this thread was to implement more tactical factors to be utilized by players. This way combat will become more interesting, challenging and more reliant on player's cleverness instead of his char's.
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All this suggestion was meant just to nerf minigunners because some wannabe-Avatar fan tried to beat highly skilled soldier with minigun, using only sticks and rocks (like in the movie, yep).
Except it isn't a highly skilled soldier at all period. It's some dude in a wasteland with a machine gun. The only people close to being "soldiers" by any traditional sense of the word would be in the Enclave, BoS, or NCR everyone else is technically just a guy with a gun in a desert. The methods to train actual soldiers for the most part faded away in a nuclear fire so what you're left with is a country full of guns and people, that doesn't make them soldiers though.
Soldiers have a training regime which includes among other things unarmed and bayonet drills with a rifle training in almost all cases (you know, minus clerks and medical technicans and other noncombat trades) precisely because the scenario of being disarmed can happen. You can be rushed and grappled by someone quick enough. You can have omeone pull a knife on you while you're struggling impotently to get that enemy in your firing arc, while he's actively stuggling against you. You can have your throat cut effortlessly in that time ending your struggle quickly. Meanwhile character builds typically feature 200+ ranks in their primary weapon skill and minimal in anything else - fallout characters are talented gunmen for the most part who lack the well rounded repetoire of skills to deal with that reality of combat.
I'm not suggesting minigunners die instantly in mellee combat, I'm suggesting that the difficulty of fighting in close quarters with a large weapon, not just minguns, but all the big guns and, hell, rifles among the small guns and energy weapons while we're at it be reflected through serious accuracy penalties at close range.
Why? Because it adds another dynamic to the game and dynamic combat in games is what makes them fun. If it doesn't work out then simply change it back later it's not worth not testing something that could be fun for everyone because some people are afraid crying "Don't nerf me bro". It's not a nerf, lets face it minigunners own and will own people most of the time even with this change in effect, seriously how often do you run into mellee range just to burst someone?
Machine guns and rifles are not and should not be treated as magical swiss army knives ideal for every situation - they're not. And reflectin that in game would add an interesting new dynamic to the game that's worth considering.
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Why? Because it adds another dynamic to the game and dynamic combat in games is what makes them fun. If it doesn't work out then simply change it back later it's not worth not testing something that could be fun for everyone because some people are afraid crying "Don't nerf me bro". It's not a nerf, lets face it minigunners own and will own people most of the time even with this change in effect, seriously how often do you run into mellee range just to burst someone?
I can already see what kind of problems it could cause if implemented without supporting features. A melee dude or a close range gun dude gets near big gunner, big gunner just starts running as long as he wants until he gains little more distance due to micromanagement. Then he bursts, if the melee dude didn't die, big gunner starts running again. This is called kiting, you can see it in WoW and starcraft and it looks extremely stupid. It's caused by instant acceleration to maximum speed movement and instant weapon readyness. Instead of planning your actions beforehand the game encourages constant movement, like fonline does now in some cases.
So TwistedIndoctrine if we ever get distance modifiers, we also need to rework moving a little. So that you just can't get away from unfit position immediately by running. Many players already hate the real time because it's not strategic enough and relies too much on reflexes. This is partially caused by the excessive running.
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Agreed.
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...seriously how often do you run into mellee range just to burst someone?
All the time if I can help it, actually. Then again, I'm not BG, either. Though during my time in PVP, I know for a fact that BGers do it, too. Not everyone, of course. With support, they have no need because they do not worry so much about having to do all the damage.
However, I have seen often they will try to stand beside you to burst, if they have any say in the matter and the situation calls for it. Which is often. And it only makes sense with the present mechanics. I do like this idea in partial, as mechanics DO need more in them to vary them. Right now, besides the weapon choice, there is not much else that varies the combat. You run, move, and either snipe or burst. Everyone generally hits 95%, most wear some kickass armor (especially those that have plenty of it and don't mind risking one offhandedly), and many take drugs and perks to further fortify themselves.
Right now, it looks like cardboard cutouts running everywhere. >:(
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+100
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I dont like realism when gameplay or balance suffers out of it. But the sheer lack of penalities for weapons in close range make the game far too easy. If someone is next to me in RL with a Knife or a sword in striking range, these 2 things are far superior to any bullet except into the head... Thats Real Life fact every Kendoka or HtH expert can tell you. Both would die or just the gunner.
In this game you get an advantage of using the biggest and meanest gun, because there are no downsides... running up close with all AP makes it possible to have at least one burst...
I just came along with the Van Buren idea of RT Combat which says that RT combat is a hybrid like i suggested before. A Turn is 6 seconds, and rather you use up all your AP or not they ll get replenished after the 6 seconds.. this gives an advantage to those who stand still and aim, and discourages rushing next to someone and killing him at point blank range.. also the AP left after the round influence running speed of the next 6 seconds.. i really like that idea
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I just came along with the Van Buren idea of RT Combat which says that RT combat is a hybrid like i suggested before. A Turn is 6 seconds, and rather you use up all your AP or not they ll get replenished after the 6 seconds.. this gives an advantage to those who stand still and aim, and discourages rushing next to someone and killing him at point blank range.. also the AP left after the round influence running speed of the next 6 seconds.. i really like that idea
It called rounds, I suggested it before, but someone disliked it.
However 6 seconds is too much.
Neverwinter Nights and Icewind Dales and other D&Ds using 6-second rounds.
But I more like SW: KOTOR's 3-second rounds, because game looks less like "Strike and then stare 5 seconds on victim with stupid face." And 6 seconds is too much for game as FOnline.
With round system sequence can be implemented in RT easily, by taking actions with highest sequence in advantage and first-to-do, like if you had more sequence than your target and you shoot each other, you'll shoot 1st, and only he'll do that after.
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4 Second rounds would be perfect... you have to be a very fast clicker to just stand arround because there are still animations which have to be done :) 4-5 seconds Real Time rounds would fit in perfectly
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Neverwinter Nights and Icewind Dales and other D&Ds using 6-second rounds.
I always found icewind dale fights very chaotic.
But I more like SW: KOTOR's 3-second rounds, because game looks less like "Strike and then stare 5 seconds on victim with stupid face." And 6 seconds is too much for game as FOnline.
3 Seconds could be too little because in fonline you might have a squad and there's got to be enough time to type some messages about what's going on in combat. Currently proper teamplay requires 3rd party communication programs.
Besides that "strike and stare" could be changed to aiming or enlonged shooting animations. If all aps were invested in shooting, a big gunner would shoot short bursts for the whole 6 seconds.
What I still don't understand is that are the turns 6 seconds per person one at time or is there a global clock during which everyone spends his aps in 6 seconds and then it resets?
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"shoot him with your minigun!"
"I can't sir"
"Why not?!"
"He's too close, I might get too many bullets in him... Plus I just washed this uniform, I don't wanna get him all over it"
...
Fuck minimum range.
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"shoot him with your minigun!"
"I can't sir"
"Why not?!"
"He's too close, I might get too many bullets in him... Plus I just washed this uniform, I don't wanna get him all over it"
...
Fuck minimum range.
the minigun is 5 times bigger than a P90 and 472438745 bigger/longer etc than a knife so if some guyis right up on you you honestly think you'll be able to shoot him? Especially if he goes past the barrel?
Inappropriate speech removed. Watch your tongue, Michel.
~Surf
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the minigun is 5 times bigger than a P90 and 472438745 bigger/longer etc than a knife so if some guyis right up on you you honestly think you'll be able to shoot him? Especially if he goes past the barrel?
Inappropriate speech removed. Watch your tongue, Michel.
~Surf
First, who is going to dodge 120 rounds from a minigun. Second, even if someone is right next to you with a knife, YOU HAVE A MINIGUN. One step backwards and he is toast. Better yet, if we are talking realism, anyone could just smash that big metal gun into his face, knock him out and kill him that way. Plus, if you look on the screen and stand right next to someone with a minigun its not THAT big. You just like to make it seem that way because of the obvious bias in your argument.
I could understand a minimum range of 1 square... that would be the only thing that makes sense because the minigun does actually creep over to the square in front of the player..
But besides that, you try rushing a guy with a minigun, you can say goodbye to your legs, arms and face WELL before you actually get close to him.
Didn't your mother ever tell you? "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
I don't care if you guys have hard ons for melee fighting, guns will always be superior in pvp.
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Please dont just argument with realism... this is not just about realism actually for me it has nothing to do with realism but with balance, and adding a deeper PVP layer to the game... Realism is welcome as long as it helps the game to get a new positive faccette..
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Well it's fallout mechanism and a strategy and part of Big Gunner gameplay, so I suggest to forget this minimum range.
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Besides with the drug nerf and the fast shot nerf lets see how well BGer's do first, i highly doubt we will need a minimum range after that.
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Besides with the drug nerf and the fast shot nerf lets see how well BGer's do first, i highly doubt we will need a minimum range after that.
Yeah, true ;p
This will only achieve a long serie of nerf for minigun...
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Besides with the drug nerf and the fast shot nerf lets see how well BGer's do first, i highly doubt we will need a minimum range after that.
You could still have BG with 220 HP and 2 bursts (12 AP).
You forget, that drug BG will lose one from 3 bursts per round, but drug sniper will lose one from his 2 shots per round.. so it will be 2/3 (BG) vs 1/2 (SG). And you can still do 2x100 DMG with avenger, so i dont think that BG will be weak.
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With recent nerf, no, you don't do 100 damage to a BA.
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(Roughly)
Avenger - Damage 8-11, BRoFx2 12-15.
Damage Mod 2/3, -35% DR
BoS CA - 8/40
Average of 13 Bullets hitting target.
=> ((13.5*2/3)-(8/3 [This is rounded down to 2]))*0.95 = (9-2)*0.95 = 6.65 per bullet. 13*6.65 = 86 HP per shot @ 6AP
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Exactly ;p
Also this is without toughness ;p
Well, so much nerf T.T
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Nerf? The only difference is 6AP rather than 5AP, makes no difference to how much damage it does in one shot.
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Nerf? The only difference is 6AP rather than 5AP, makes no difference to how much damage it does in one shot.
I am talking about precedent nerfs (range, AP perk, more AP to reload...)
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First, who is going to dodge 120 rounds from a minigun. Second, even if someone is right next to you with a knife, YOU HAVE A MINIGUN. One step backwards and he is toast. Better yet, if we are talking realism, anyone could just smash that big metal gun into his face, knock him out and kill him that way. Plus, if you look on the screen and stand right next to someone with a minigun its not THAT big. You just like to make it seem that way because of the obvious bias in your argument.
I could understand a minimum range of 1 square... that would be the only thing that makes sense because the minigun does actually creep over to the square in front of the player..
But besides that, you try rushing a guy with a minigun, you can say goodbye to your legs, arms and face WELL before you actually get close to him.
Maybe we're talking about situations where knife-wielding person ambushes minigunner. Like a situation where minigunner steps through a doorway and someone slices his throat. Nobody here telling that "melee dude rushing a minigunner should win".
Didn't your mother ever tell you? "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
I don't care if you guys have hard ons for melee fighting, guns will always be superior in pvp.
I got nothing against that pvp will be mostly fought with guns. I'm just trying to point out that knife wielding person should be able to defeat a minigunner if he plays his cards right.
Besides when did this turn into knife vs minigun anyway? It used to be about weapons having advantages over others in certain ranges.
Well it's fallout mechanism and a strategy and part of Big Gunner gameplay, so I suggest to forget this minimum range.
Fallout mechanisms are based on singleplayer. FOnline is multiplayer, just to mention.
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I got nothing against that pvp will be mostly fought with guns. I'm just trying to point out that knife wielding person should be able to defeat a minigunner if he plays his cards right.
Fallout mechanisms are based on singleplayer. FOnline is multiplayer, just to mention.
Key points
If a gunman is stupid enough or unlucky enough to ignore a mellee fighter long enough that he gets into close range he should feel the hurt for his mistake. Currently there's nothing to support that.
And yes, just because something was in fallout 1 & 2 doesn't make it some inviolate holy grail that can't be touched. Things need to change in order to function properly in an online environment as was said, this is no longer a single player game.
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I am talking about precedent nerfs (range, AP perk, more AP to reload...)
And yet the Avenger remains the #1 DPS weapon on the game.
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Mmmh, I am not sure : plasma rifle criticals hit are... painfull, in damage and in additional effects, and don't cost more AP. Also with all SG weapons improved, there will be probably won't have much difference in DPS, even if they do a bit less damage, they still cost less AP.
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Ah, Plasma Crits may be a contender actually. Small gun bursts will all come in quite a way under Avengers by DPS.
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I want to get to another level of discussion : in short Combat a pistol should be superior to any other gun in short to medium range normal sized rifles and in medium to long range big guns .. Why ? Because it would give a weapon class another faccette and would add a interesting facette to the game... especially in PvP and RT battles would be aswell far more interesting when a player faces penalities and advantages when using the gun right... and it would also encourage people getting away from the Super Bg-Build or the Super Small-Gun build to a far more versatile build... a game gets far more options and decissions to make when there are more than just 1 variabel or 2 ... i hope you get my point.. i dont want DPS to the only thing to consider as weapons to choose but also the way how i want to use it and what should be my secondary gun..
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I read all the post for and against, i want to ask you[capslock]
PEOPLE - DO YOU WANT THIS GAME COOL UNREALISTIC AND GOOD OR REALISTIC*1 OR HYBRID OF TWO ONES?[capslockoff/]
(Realistic for me means - you cant get acces to comabt armors - you cant get miniguns into hands and run if you dont have minimum strength (even if you eat jet or orther shit and you will get it - then your main special Strength need to be as minimum strength to wield a weapon, also you cant get other weapons bla bla bla)
Please - make minium range to weapons - now - with no bg you are useless shit in pvp :) im serious.
Next Edit to : Hybrid
If we want to make this game some way realistic and some way - futuristic or other bla blas
We need to BALANCE it
Just one situation - we got sneak yeah? its now used to carry grenades and make meat from others - now melee weapons are useless shit in pvp - which could be used by sneakers (something like sneaking with knife and making bloodrage in enemy's line
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PEOPLE - DO YOU WANT THIS GAME COOL UNREALISTIC AND GOOD OR REALISTIC*1 OR HYBRID OF TWO ONES?[capslockoff/]
You know the plan is not to make it more realistic, but give more strategic elements and through that balance, challenge and fun. It just happens to be so that real life is the easiest source of ideas for these strategic element.
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Maybe we should leave big guns damage the way it is and instead consider boosting the combat value of close range weapons. I think the instakill system that many fps games use would be overkill but perhaps we can instead up the damage, have it bypass armor, or increase chance of crits.
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try to kill a scout with a heavy at point blank
you must be extrimly lucky or extreamly good in heavy gameplay