fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Lordus on May 01, 2010, 07:57:26 pm
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Hello players, fighters.
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We are at stage n.2 http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4313.0
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please, read first the first post in the link http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4205.msg37981#msg37981
Result is:
I agree, absolutely 12 (34.3%)
I agree, but i would change something 8 (22.9%)
I disagree, because of some ideas 6 (17.1%)
I disagree, absolutely 4 (11.4%)
I abstain 5 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 35
20 votes for this proposal, 10 against, 5 abstains.. the ratio is 2:1 for proposal = 66,6 percent of voting people are supporting proposal.
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"PvP constitution proposal n.1"
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PvP constitution:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.
2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.
3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.
4) The combat should be more tactical.
5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.
6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.
Requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons
b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)
c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)
9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
10) We should balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together, or at least, we should find the role for melee and unarmed.
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
Turnbased is part of the game, we would not disable it, but it is not priority for us. So we will focus our attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect in turnbased PvP, we dont care, but we dont want to intentionaly destroy the TB. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.
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100% agree
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Devs should focus on balancing PvP instead of making it new from a scratch (this is what you've just proposed).
I mean, Lordus, I know that you can be bored with the current PvP, but seriously... what the fuck.
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First off, i support your efforts and your time in making all this.
I voted i agree, but i would change some things. I mean, yes, change is needed, but mostly in balance terms, weapon usage and combat lenght. All other changes are too drastical, too much, quite much making new PvP from a scratch, even if you stated that we shouldnt make new, but balance the existing one.
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You know balance existing one can be pretty much equivalent to creating completely new from scratch.
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i would say "You cant fit elephant into bottle"
Please realise the limit of engine and limit of devs time. Look how Somethign simple as FoV/LoS and problems it caused ....
i personaly have no idea how much more compute presure the game take...
But as first and possibly easiest way to balance things would be to work on movement
i would add another movement speed - sprint or smth like that and then work things around this way :
1- Make the character run up to target whe using melee attack (possibly auto-run-follow would work when you are close to enemy - 10 hex?)
2- Sprint - usable only in light armor and carry not mroe then 30%
3- normal run - usable in any armor and ligth weapon armed
4- walk - You are forced to walk when having big gun armed (yea bg nerf but then BG could recive some buff to make them the weapons they should be
bla bla bla blabing around - but that way i would go - is to increase tactical level of the game by adding stuff like :
run modifiers: obstacle mods , balistic effects on nades , more special effects like stuns (short duration like 1s) suppression fire (forced to walk) , other penalties , increase HP overally (like 5Hp per lv + end/2 , lifegiver isntantly gives 40 hp , only one rank.)
we can go futher and add more cool stuff like something like smoke grenades , mpm ones ( some - creates area within it you cant do aim on body parts (and some hit penalty maybe too ). MPM disables energy eapons for short time ( for example forces the victim to reload - depand on strenght can need diminishing), napalm / flamethower causes big gun victim to be unable ot use weapon for a while (overheat) ....blablabla we can create tons of pages with ideas yet none of us can even estimate time it would take to add one...
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i would say "You cant fit elephant into bottle"
Please realise the limit of engine and limit of devs time. Look how Somethign simple as FoV/LoS and problems it caused ....
i personaly have no idea how much more compute presure the game take...
But as first and possibly easiest way to balance things would be to work on movement
i would add another movement speed - sprint or smth like that and then work things around this way :
1- Make the character run up to target whe using melee attack (possibly auto-run-follow would work when you are close to enemy - 10 hex?)
2- Sprint - usable only in light armor and carry not mroe then 30%
3- normal run - usable in any armor and ligth weapon armed
4- walk - You are forced to walk when having big gun armed (yea bg nerf but then BG could recive some buff to make them the weapons they should be
bla bla bla blabing around - but that way i would go - is to increase tactical level of the game by adding stuff like :
run modifiers: obstacle mods , balistic effects on nades , more special effects like stuns (short duration like 1s) suppression fire (forced to walk) , other penalties , increase HP overally (like 5Hp per lv + end/2 , lifegiver isntantly gives 40 hp , only one rank.)
we can go futher and add more cool stuff like something like smoke grenades , mpm ones ( some - creates area within it you cant do aim on body parts (and some hit penalty maybe too ). MPM disables energy eapons for short time ( for example forces the victim to reload - depand on strenght can need diminishing), napalm / flamethower causes big gun victim to be unable ot use weapon for a while (overheat) ....blablabla we can create tons of pages with ideas yet none of us can even estimate time it would take to add one...
That's exactly what we're soon about to discuss here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4205.msg37981#msg37981). Now we just outlining the basic principles.
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Total remaking the whole system...hmm, it's ok I guess, but the time you will need even to "invent it" will be enough to finish SDK, I think. Not that I'm telling you stfu and start making your own server, but as Attero pointed: remaking the base PvP system gonna be damn hard and time consuming, and if you are not the one codding it...guess you even don't know what can and what can't be implemented.
But good luck by the way.
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I agree with everything except for you abandoning turn based combat. I don't like real time combat. It wasn't in the original games and saying you don't care if it breaks is abandoning the people who like it. I'll probably stop playing if you start ignoring TB combat. If I wanted that kind of action I'd play Xbox360. I play this game because I like Fallout and I've always thought real time combat was a bastardization of the original combat system. Just my 2 cents. I may be in the minority.
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I agree with everything except for you abandoning turn based combat. I don't like real time combat. It wasn't in the original games and saying you don't care if it breaks is abandoning the people who like it. I'll probably stop playing if you start ignoring TB combat. If I wanted that kind of action I'd play Xbox360. I play this game because I like Fallout and I've always thought real time combat was a bastardization of the original combat system. Just my 2 cents. I may be in the minority.
I can write here example:
Look at current TB combats. They are too long now. Your have 30 sec to make your decision, and even when are you quicker, the engine is too slow, so it takes long time too.
So if we want longer real time fights, the turn based combat will be longer too. But we cant balance this.
If the priority will be TB, we will need to make quicke fights, than real time will be one shot one kill only...
Because of this, priority is real time. Most PvP players likes only real time, thats fact.
The vote is here, because we, change makers, want to feedback from other players. There were plenty of ideas, almost zero output. If we know, that players have same vision like we have, we can continue in this process. If our vision will be different, we can change something. By players, for players.
The major purpose, why we are creating this, is because we (at least i) think, that developers does not have much combat experience (in PvP). I hope the process result will help them.
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About realtime/ turnbased:
Have you guys ever played Jagged Alliance 2? It is a turnbased game. Compared to that games strategic dept Fallout Tactics seems like a poor made Arcade game. Turnbased allows for a lot more strategies than realtime. Just because turnbased is implemented rather poorly in Fallout does not mean it is bad in general.
I know TB is a problem in cities but in most places it is, IMO, far superior to realtime if a system like in Jagged Alliance was in place here. Please play the game (and it's newer mods) to understand what I mean.
Have you ever thought of simultaneous turnbased? Every 30 seconds a new turn begins for all players at once. End of "to long" story. It's a good compromise between RT and TB imo.
You could even implement sequence there if players with a very high sequence can act immediately whereas players with low sequ. can act after 10 seconds. Everyone else in between. Keep in mind the numbers are just an example.
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Removed spam from the topic.
People, seriously it's probably the 1.0001203506th time I write this, but: These are just SUGGESTIONS! It's not that some things get implemented immediately just because one guy suggests something in this board. Also, for the people who are suggesting things, keep in mind this suggestion board is more a fundus of small(or not so small) ideas for the devs in ways to increaze the game, make the game better. If your suggestion won't get implemented, it doesn't mean they don't like you or they don't care about it, it's just that the suggestion didn't fit in their style they want the game.
And therefore posts like "Devs don't care about pvp" etc. are considered spam and will get removed. Also "create your own game" will get deleted.
People, just think twice before you post if your thoughts are really needed in that topic. Just behave yourself, post in a proper manner, is it that hard?
Now back to topic.
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Real time isn't purely real time because everyone is still restricted by action points not his reflexes and speed of micromanagement. Hopefully we will find a solution that's not too fast but not too slow either. Something that everyone can catch and keep up with.
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About realtime/ turnbased:
Have you guys ever played Jagged Alliance 2?
I played but not for long time (my computer had not enough RAM for this kind of game (i had 4 MB and this required 8MB i think), and later, there were new games :) ). But JA was single player game. Fonline should to be multiplayer.
Most PvP are in cities. There is no chance how to implement TB into the cites. Also, i remember every TB fights, neverendings trap zones.. But, i have to repeat. We dont want to intentionaly ruin TB. But balance will be made on real time fights. It is impossible, to make one common balanced system for realtime and TB.
I.e.: One way, how to make SMGs more usable (against other weapons) is that in real time, if you have SMG in your active slot and you are shooting and you are moving, the action points will be refreshing during movement and fire (with minigun your AP will refresh after fire if you stand - like in current system). But there is no chance how to implement this into TB mode. So we will not balance this feature to TB mode. Understand?
P.S.: This example is only theoretical. Everybody will have chance to make their own idea list, but compatible with this PvP constituion. PvP constitution is only creating limits, it determines the direction this suggesion process will aim.
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well honestly i dont think the words tactical and realtime belong in the same sentence in relation to pvp in this game, pretty much the way i see it the game of real time pvp boils down to who has the least amount of lag/rockets in your face.
I can think of about 4 perks that are completely worthless outside of TB, playing TB also minimizes lag issues for everyone and levels the field even though people love to whine because obviously they have so little time to waste playing Fonline, that and playing turn based actually gives people the chance to escape a would be sniper or big gunner Pk that would normally spell instant doom for anyone not equipped for such a situation.
Real time would have to be completely re-done in order to make more entertaining battles, the instant death from critical eyeshots or the guy that throws 4 plasma grenades a round in real time so you can never actually do anything does not seem very tactical to me, just a cheap way to get free gear.
I dont view that as tactical at all, more like your little brother spamming a fireball in a fighting game or something to win just because he knows if he had to come at you any other way youd wipe the floor with him.
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My basic idea is: You don't like FOnline, you just quit.
You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.
There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.
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My basic idea is: You don't like FOnline, you just quit.
You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.
There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.
Well, i was here from start of this beta. I fight in every era, so i think that it is lie if you tell me that i dont like Fonline. But you forget one thing. This is BETA testing, not final game. So i have right, or maybe duty, to help developers.
You are right, Fallout (1,2) was single player game. But this is multiplayer game modification. So i think, and many others too, that it deserves multiplayer PvP system. As Solar said, nobody who is involved in this project, does know, if developers will listen us, after we will finish this. I do only what do others in suggestion forum. I am making new suggestion, complex, but unlike others, i want to create something by cooperation with other players, players who cares. Dont take from me right to create suggestion, you despot ;-)
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You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.
There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.
What are you talking about? New features rise and fall all the time. We've tested parley, tracking, differend Fovs and differend player flagging. New features like town reputation and town control are brand new, ideas for them were partially given by playerbase. Our economy is starting to look good gather-craft wise. Only things that really would need some major changes are indeed combat and end game bussiness for higher levels.
What this game doesn't need are dismotivated and depressed people who are always there to tell that "it's no use it's not going to work anyway". Constructive criticism is always welcome but basic attitude of every beta tester should be optimistic, motivated and open-minded.
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the problem is that adding your suggestions would require a huge amount of work for devs, a huge! And do we know at all that people would like the new created system? What if it would suck much more harder then current system? Thats why i always say, lets think how we can improve what we have, and if you dont like that wait for SDK TLA files release :>
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the problem is that adding your suggestions would require a huge amount of work for devs, a huge! And do we know at all that people would like the new created system? What if it would suck much more harder then current system? Thats why i always say, lets think how we can improve what we have, and if you dont like that wait for SDK TLA files release :>
im most certainly am waiting for SDK.
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the guy that throws 4 plasma grenades a round in real time so you can never actually do anything does not seem very tactical to me, just a cheap way to get free gear.
I dont view that as tactical at all, more like your little brother spamming a fireball in a fighting game or something to win just because he knows if he had to come at you any other way youd wipe the floor with him.
It IS a tactic.
Perhaps your definition of tactical is manuever fighting, which is cool. I'd like to see more of that.
Ambushes are more realistic: would you,in RL, prefer to simply snipe someone/throw grenades by surprise, or would you want to have a "Chivalrous Engagement" with charges and retreats and so on?
I get the impression that the ideal is some sort of Wild West shootout, with people ducking behind barrels, diving through windows, etc. I would love that, and sometimes it comes out that way, if everyone is low-medium level with low-medium equipment.
Guys with autotargeted laser/plasma rifles bring it to the level of the gunslinger standoff- whoever draws first wins, except the botting predetermines even that.
How about banning some botters?
That would be a good way to start reforming PvP.
No, I don't have Fraps (http://www.fraps.com/) currently installed, so I have no evidence to present.
Maybe a Fraps (http://www.fraps.com/) campaign is in order.
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I will stop the vote right now. I think that people had enough time to vote (weekend). I carefuly watched the voting, there were no sudden changes of votes,.. so it think we cant expect something new in voting in near future.
Result is:
I agree, absolutely 12 (34.3%)
I agree, but i would change something 8 (22.9%)
I disagree, because of some ideas 6 (17.1%)
I disagree, absolutely 4 (11.4%)
I abstain 5 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 35
20 votes for this proposal, 10 against, 5 abstains.. the ratio is 2:1 for proposal = 66,6 percent of voting people are supporting proposal.
Most of disagree but contstructive reactions were about turn based. So i repeat, we will not intentionaly destroy the TB combat in our future suggestions.
Our process will now enter second stage. I think this stage will be far longer than previous stage. Until i will create special thread, i want to discuss here about the form of stage two. If we look to the PvP constitution, it is divided to some chapters, so one way how to start, is start discuss about every chapters.. But, they are connected, so maybe it will be impossible. But i see major chapters there: balance and fight style (the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style). So this could be a good topics to start. So maybe players could post their view over this topics, every player in one (big) respond to thread i will create.
If you have any idea, go on.
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I just want to add that you were discussing the combat length as one of the subjects. There were some ideas and so on but the way I see it is that combat should be way more longer in matter of what we can do in fight but it should not be time based like shortest fight will always take you 5 seconds while longest will be 1 min or something like that.
Its logical when 2 attack 1 then loner will quickly meet his maker. My point is that I think current FOnline could definitely use some of "abilities" that were discussed already at suggestion section (my signature, about 3-4 th page + another hth topic elsewhere). I believe that is the good way how to form solid and balanced combat. Make people choose special abilities that will shape their characters in addition to current special, perk, skills system.
+ as I've already posted elsewhere too, I think that current crafting is what ruining the game balance at the first place. When you have to dedicate your whole character to be successful crafter, then it works like magical barrier between PvPers and crafters/average guys and that causes shitload of balance troubles and practically divide playerbase in two. Imho game should be based on combat and no matter what path you take, your char should be always capable of decent PvP activity no matter what build you pick. So in order to reach that, professions should come as something extra to ANY character no matter if you are PB or 24/7 miner.
Ideal FOnline in my head? Thisone:
Take pro PvPer and switch his char with "average" guy who plays from time to time and just for fun (both max lvl).
As a result you should get player that is limited by his character build, skills and abilities but with proper equipment his PvP experience will still make him deadly opponent that can take down other less experienced players even if they are pure PvP builds.
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Our process will now enter second stage. I think this stage will be far longer than previous stage. Until i will create special thread, i want to discuss here about the form of stage two. If we look to the PvP constitution, it is divided to some chapters, so one way how to start, is start discuss about every chapters.. But, they are connected, so maybe it will be impossible. But i see major chapters there: balance and fight style (the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style). So this could be a good topics to start. So maybe players could post their view over this topics, every player in one (big) respond to thread i will create
Yeah this is good chapter to begin with.
As Sius said we probably going to have to revisit our perks, stats and skills influences on player character. Because right now our perks and skills decide exactly how accurate, damaging and resilient you character is.
Following changes could take place:
1. Skill maximum reduced to 180-200
2. Skills and stats mainly unlock you perks, crafting options and profesions, rather than strongly change your performance.
3. Perks provide you abilities, passive or active. But not direct damage buffs, not direct hp and DT buffs. Indirect damage, ac and such buffs are okay.
4. Players should get a wider variety of perks to choose and more perk slots. They should also be forced to take not only pvp or utility perks, but both.
5. Minimum and maximum hitpoints are balanced. Same with carryweight and action points.
Reasoning:
1. anything over 200 in one skill is unnecessarily big. Nobody wants to play a character that can do only one thing well, it strongly encourages alts.
2. High skill% no longer means that you always succeed. It will depend on your enviroment and opponent's reactions. Having only some high number decide your success is very bad game mechanic. As was seen by the outrage caused by sneak, steal every now and then and long ago parley. Parley was very good example of what will happen if we let our skills determine the outcome of out conflicts.
3. The reason why perks shouldn't just give +2 dmg per bullet is because the game strongly encourages taking them if a player wishes to participate in pvp. +25 to carryweight won't save you from bullets the same way as toughness. The trade off isn't fair when it comes to pvp and utility perks. The new perks could provide new abilities that were case sensitive and useful only if the player knew how to utilize them. For example you could get additional ac when behind cover, or faster reload when you havent moved for a while or additional damage when shooting stationary enemy. This kind of abilities encourage players to choose a style how to play. Rather than just enjoy the benefits of passive damage enhancers.
4. We need more perks to create differend characters. We also need to force players to choose combat perks and utility perks, not just single type. So I suggest that Player could get around 20 perks overall. 10 pvp related perks which are unlocked by his skills and stats, and 10 utility perks. Utility perks would be like strong back, pathfinder and mr fixit.
5. Nobody wants to pvp with weak character. Like sius said, everyone must have the potential to pvp in his character even if he doesn't want to. But also everyone has the potential to do other than pvp related things even if he doesn't want to. Players musn't be allowed to cripple their character too much from one area and relocate that potential to another. Just like real humans can't just make themselves deaf, mute and retarded but get super duper eyesight. Everyone must have the basic necessities for simple tasks. Like talking to npcs.
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@avv
The things you are talking about are not fallout. When you make your character you have a role in mind (you should) People perform the roles they pursue actively well. And the SPECIAL system being marginalized ends up being a horrible thing. When perks are more stat dependent you only remind me of Beth's fallout 3 *shudder*
And if you choose to make someone with 1 charisma I think that's fine because some people are ugly as hell and are in no way charming.
It's just how the SPECIAL system effects how the game plays.
As far as more perks and more options. It would be really hard to balance so many added perks. and then there would be nerfs and nerd rages as a powerful unthought of combination occurred and they needed a fix. Then other things would need to be rebalanced. Those kinds of changes may ruin the game rather then improve it.
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The things you are talking about are not fallout. When you make your character you have a role in mind (you should) People perform the roles they pursue actively well. And the SPECIAL system being marginalized ends up being a horrible thing. When perks are more stat dependent you only remind me of Beth's fallout 3 *shudder*
Fonline is only based on fallout by its background story. One of our strongest principles in this thread is that because fallouts were singleplayer games their rules cannot work properly in an mmo. Stating that something here is against fallout just won't do because we cannot let a memory if nostalgia slow down advancement. Profesions, real time and many other things weren't fallout either.
And if you choose to make someone with 1 charisma I think that's fine because some people are ugly as hell and are in no way charming.
It's just how the SPECIAL system effects how the game plays.
Well because you're such a fallout fan you should know that even with cha1 player could talk to some npcs in fallout games. So why are you suddenly against this?
All the same, cha1 or any SPECIAL 1 shouldn't cripple the character too much so that he can move this potential to some other area. This creates powerful powerbuilds that do one thing too well and this encourages alts. It's undeniable fact and cannot be protected by just telling that's the way things are.
As far as more perks and more options. It would be really hard to balance so many added perks. and then there would be nerfs and nerd rages as a powerful unthought of combination occurred and they needed a fix. Then other things would need to be rebalanced. Those kinds of changes may ruin the game rather then improve it.
That's called playtesting. We've had 2 powerful unthought combinations roaming around forever and nobody has bothered to fix them. This thread exists to solve that issue.
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I think that more perks will solve nothing. Even if you multiply level cap by 4 => 4x21=84 and lower perk/skillpoint equally to that (with IN 5 it will be 15/4 skillpoints per lvl). And thats still only 28 or 21 choices how to form your char and thats ridiculously low number (sure better than 7/5 but still nothing good.
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Yes I understand MMOs work differently. and I agree some things need a change. I believe the 1 charisma point penalty is because we don't have the numerous charisma int and speach checks in Fallout 1 and 2. So it decreased the value of charisma drastically because INT is still used for skill points. I don't think players should be allowed to cripple themselves either. But other changes need to be made to justify not crippling yourself. And those other changes (some of which are being suggested in this very thread) Don't seem a priority for the devs.
I think alot of items need to be changed personally, because certain guns are the best option for situations 90% of the time every time.
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I think that more perks will solve nothing. Even if you multiply level cap by 4 => 4x21=84 and lower perk/skillpoint equally to that (with IN 5 it will be 15/4 skillpoints per lvl). And thats still only 28 or 21 choices how to form your char and thats ridiculously low number (sure better than 7/5 but still nothing good.
I was just thinking that more perks will provide more choices of combat styles like support gunner, sniper, grunt, throat slicer or gunslinger. The guns themselves provide wide options but characters should be at least somehow be differend and specialize in certain tasks.
Well what do you propose? You had those special ability suggestions. Just feel free to re-write or link them here. Preferrably re-write so that they are loyal to the current chapter.
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I'll get onto it but it will take some time so in best case it will be tomorrow.
Anyway I have another suggestion concerning weapons. Currently its a mess. 95% of weapons are useless in endgame combat or in combat at all. Most of them does not have proper range or dmg to be useful. But what if we create weapon categories and support them with perks? I mean something like this:
Few weapon categories
- pistols
- shotguns
- smgs
- combat rifles
- sniper rifles
- energy rifles
- rocket launchers
- miniguns
Each category should have 3+ weapons. Shotguns could be used as an example =>
Shotgun -> Sawed-Off Shotgun -> Combat Shotgun -> H&K CAWS -> Pancor Jackhammer
First two are obviously low lvl weapons mainly designed for self defense and leveling. They should be easy to get and easy to feed type of weapons. Middle weapons (in this case combat shotgun) is universal so it can be used for offense/defense in both PvE and PvP. But from now on we enter "endgame" equipment zone and we have H&K and Jackhammer here. Both should be designed to be expensive yet very effective weapons. But reality is very distant from this and you can say that any shotgun is kinda useless no matter what you use it for (mainly because of its low range).
Anyway my point is to make people not only choose their weapon category by skills but also divide weapons into classes. Maybe add perks that specify only at certain class (longer range for shotguns, less aps for reload, more accurate etc...) and allow players to choose 1-2 or even 3 weapon classes they want to specialize at and become masters at it. Maybe not through perks but through something like weapon professions. You put your skillpoints into SGs and you would like to roll pistols and sniper rifles. Each weapon class has 3 levels (each lvl will grant you minor bonus) and you have 4 point to spent in weapon professions. So your build could look like this:
Sniper lvl 1 - adds +3 hexes to your weapon range
Sniper lvl 2 - more accurate aiming
Sniper lvl 3 - faster aiming (-1 ap to execute aimed shots)
Pistols lvl 1 - every action with pistols except shooting costs less ap (= switching to pistol, reaload, actions in inventory and stuff like this costs less ap)
This is kinda related to my original "abilities" suggestion so I'm just brainstorming here. Anyway I will try to rewrite that ability stuff and we will see what will come out of that.
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Okay seems like you got something to say about guns sius. Hold your horses we haven't got there yet ;)
The chapter is balance, meaning that how should the game changed so that every char can participate in pvp.
EDIT: oh well looks like Lordus decided and went ahead.
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How to balance the game across all fireamrs skills?
It is very difficult task. If we want to balance weapons. In http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4313.msg38973#msg38973 point 1) i descibed how is Fallout constucted. If you reach progress, you are able to use new, better weapon, there is no need to use your old weapon. It is naturaly, because the weapons was created for single player.
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8590/balanceweapons.png)
So we need to create differences among guns not depending on game progress. But there is one major problem. How to hold balancing under control? There are dozens of weapons. We need to create one thin line connecting all (most) of the weapons. And i found it.
Its name is Mr. Bullet (http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9500/bulletw.jpg)
In real world, the bullet is making damage, not the gun itself. The damage is made by weight of the bullet and speed of the bullet. I.e.: 7.62x51mm NATO, bullet weight 9.50g, velocity 840 m/s, energy 3,352 J.
The weapon inself only determines on how long distance you will shoot the bullet, how many times per minute, accuracy, manoeuvreability,.. Yes, it can little reduce or increase the speed of bullet, only little.
So i suggest, lets set that bullet will be the major factor in calculating damage. Weapons will have other atrributes (fire rate, distance, clips, needed strenght,..) and only little possibility to modify the damage (to make nuances among guns, i.e.: 1,1 multiplier, 1,2, 1,3 max). So if we set enough level of ammo damage, we can balance all other weapons only by setting their own multiplier.
So damage your gun will do is equal to bullet dmg * number of shooted bullets * gun multiplier. (Reducement of dmg will be another chapter).
So, what will be the difference among guns, only damage?
Damage and distance!!
If we set the distance and damage on correct level, each weapon could have its own purpose. The problem i see, is to set distance of crossing lines correctly. This will determine the use of weapon (interior, streets, city squares, free planes,...). Than we can make minor changes in each weapon class (i.e. magazine, total distance, price, AP needed, dmg multiplier)
I.E.:
(http://spreadsheets.google.com/oimg?key=0AhaQ-Isi0FCSdGlfcGFZbUN6VmhrakxCbFZCNm5zZlE&oid=1&v=1272985093784)
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Hmh I guess the balance counts weapon balance aswell. We can discuss the character issue later.
Good ideas Lordus, especially that bullets being the major dmg determining factor. Many bg and sg use the same bullets. When it comes to guns we can think of simple and fast methods to balance them but then the game will lack strategic options.
The weapon inself only determines on how long distance you will shoot the bullet, how many times per minute, accuracy, manoeuvreability,
This is good. For example big guns should be heavy and hard to haul into positions fast. It should take time to prepare them, instead of rushing around starting to ratata with 95% accuracy in 0,1 seconds when enemy is met. Same goes with grenades and aimed eyeshots. It should take time to prepare a good shot. This would move snipers to long distances where they got time to prepare their shots, instead of being able to deliver perfectly accurate killshots in mere milliseconds from any range. Shotguns, smgs, pistols and assault rifles should be the mainline weapons and usable for everybody.
Basically guns need more perk slots and options. Currently we got one slot and very few choices.
Or maybe we could try to come up with easy balance that's good basis for advanced features. The bullets and distance being the basis for all damage sounds good to start with.
Here I put some more guns in your chart.
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4294/roflchart.jpg)
Didn't pay as much attention as you did, but one thing that could be discussed is the big gun overpower at close range. Big guns should IMO be the medium-long range dominators in the open and defense but outmatced in tight areas by smgs, pistols and shotguns.
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I think that SMG line should be very similar to big gun line, but with one big advantage. AP will refresh even in shooting or moving your char. This will be very good short range offensive, hit and run ability of this kind of weapons.
Also, i think that there should exist one assault riffle AK47 with 7.62 ammo for small guns and LSW for big guns (7.62 ammo). These 2 guns should be very similar. LSW will have better firepower (just because of more bullets will be shooten in one burst), but will have less distance, AK will have more direct line than LSW. Also AK will be able to shoot single shot.
I think single shot must be very usefull gun ability.
Only sniper riffle class should be able to do eyeshot (sniper riffle, hunting riffle, laser riffle, XL?, gauss gun??). And pistols too (10mm, desert eagle, 14mm,...). Eyeshot should do criticals and raise the basic gun damage to bigger values.
Only riffles (and sniper rffles and pistol too) should be able to head shots. Head shots will have (1/6, ...) propability to change itsself to eyeshot. At this moment, i dont exactly know, what head shot should do.. maybe knock like now, but limited.
Hand shot ... similar like now.. bigger possibility to lose the gun or cripple hand.
Foot shot... possibility of slowing enemy movement for short time.
Possibility. Footshot>Handshot>Headshot>Eyeshot
So you will have bigger chance to slow enemy, than to kill him instantly.
If this kind of shot will be usefull in fight, biggunners, with no possibility of aim, could have their big firepower like now, but they will be in disadvantage because enemy could block their movement close to them, so BGunner enemy could not use their guns in their max effect range.
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I think that SMG line should be very similar to big gun line, but with one big advantage. AP will refresh even in shooting or moving your char. This will be very good short range offensive, hit and run ability of this kind of weapons.
Uhuh sounds plausible. Then we just have to fit shotguns there.
Also, i think that there should exist one assault riffle AK47 with 7.62 ammo for small guns and LSW for big guns (7.62 ammo). These 2 guns should be very similar. LSW will have better firepower (just because of more bullets will be shooten in one burst), but will have less distance, AK will have more direct line than LSW. Also AK will be able to shoot single shot.
Well we got fn fal and m60. Nobody just seems to use those. What bg should do is to hold areas. For example you set a machine gun to cover an area and you can make sure that nobody will pass over that place without getting constant flow of bullets coming at him. Machine guns should be able to shoot long and many targets at once.
This pic demonstrates what I mean.
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6205/zomgbrustrofl.jpg)
Those dudes are standing within your shooting area, they are your enemies and when you hit some shortcut you start spraying bullets. It will be very uncomfortable for those dudes to just stand there. Of course shooting one target only would be allowed as well.
I think single shot must be very usefull gun ability.
I agree. But not only because of aimed shots, but just raw damage output. Players should be allowed to shoot more unaimed single shots with less ap and more damage.
Only sniper riffle class should be able to do eyeshot (sniper riffle, hunting riffle, laser riffle, XL?, gauss gun??). And pistols too (10mm, desert eagle, 14mm,...). Eyeshot should do criticals and raise the basic gun damage to bigger values.
You know eyeshots with guns go a bit over the limit, nobody aims in the eyes with a gun. Should be only spared for special melee attack.
Only riffles (and sniper rffles and pistol too) should be able to head shots. Head shots will have (1/6, ...) propability to change itsself to eyeshot. At this moment, i dont exactly know, what head shot should do.. maybe knock like now, but limited.
Pistols could be the most accurate guns in close combat. For example a magnum headshot from close range could be one of the most effective strikes in game. But they would lose to smgs in rate of fire.
Only rifles would be able to perform proper aimed shots from range. This would make them ideal in taking out troubblesome big gunners.
Perhaps just more damage. Maximum damage that is. While limb shots cripple, head shots would just do more damage. Knockouts are actually pretty bad feature, it's fair and good in single player but not allowing other player do anything is just annoying.
Hand shot ... similar like now.. bigger possibility to lose the gun or cripple hand.
Foot shot... possibility of slowing enemy movement for short time.
Yes yes makes sense. But what about groin shots? Should be spared to melee only?
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well, if i may add to this, i personally think that groin shots could lower the enemy's maximum aim for a short time by like 10% (so, from 95% to hit, the max would be 85% CTH), the pain that the guy/chick is going through being shot in the privates gotta remove some concentration from him/her.
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well, if i may add to this, i personally think that groin shots could lower the enemy's maximum aim for a short time by like 10% (so, from 95% to hit, the max would be 85% CTH), the pain that the guy/chick is going through being shot in the privates gotta remove some concentration from him/her.
I forgot groin shot. :) Damn, i never liked this kind of attacks. I alway showed men's empathy so i rahter killed men's enemy rather than turture him.
Yeah, ti could be some effect like you described. But what about women enemy.. They are more sensitive in chest.. So make this different for each sex?
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nah, i think that getting hit in the groin hurts just as much for women as for mes, but most of us here are men in anycase, so we wouln't know that, and most of the girls who play this game haven't really been shot in the groin, so we can't exactly find out...
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And besides, shot in the groin isn't always the balls, but belly too. Shot in that area is the most painful thing and hardest to treat.
So perhaps groin injury would cause long term general weakening injury that couldn't be removed with just one doctor attempt. Or whatever, we're stuck into discussing something as important as kicking someone in the balls :D
Hey we need more people's opinions here. Stop making new threads and come here to discuss.
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I have little problem. I have not enough time to spend in this process next few weeks, because of degree examination on university and graduation thesis. So i hope you will continue with this process without me for this time.
I have found another problem for bursting weapons damage:
Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.
So what to do with this? Solutions:
1) Remove DT from armors (and maybe increase DR)
or
2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.
Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.
3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.
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Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.
In fallouts big guns were just big guns. They were just more damage dealing than small guns because they were later game weapons and that's that. Very bad feature in an mmo.
The fact that bg fires burst is just an illusion. The burst happens instantly and lasts as long as single shot. It's just a damage package that seems like a burst because it consumes more ammo and has a spread.
What we gotta do is to change the role of big guns. Instead of powerful bursts that happen instantly bg should fire short bursts for extended periods of time. This way they hold upper hand on defense, open areas and direct face2face shootouts because the enemy just can't cope with the constant slugging. And if bullets determine the damage by default the damages should stay reasonable. We don't necessarily have to touch armors just because of big guns.
2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.
Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.
3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.
Our armors are actually quite neat. They got AC, DT and DR. 3 factors to play with, quite enough to create variety and differend weapons to counter them.
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I have little problem. I have not enough time to spend in this process next few weeks, because of degree examination on university and graduation thesis. So i hope you will continue with this process without me for this time.
I have found another problem for bursting weapons damage:
Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.
So what to do with this? Solutions:
1) Remove DT from armors (and maybe increase DR)
or
2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.
Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.
3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.
AP ammo with penetrate perk = DT/5 if you didnt know
Here I put some more guns in your chart.
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4294/roflchart.jpg)
Didn't pay as much attention as you did, but one thing that could be discussed is the big gun overpower at close range. Big guns should IMO be the medium-long range dominators in the open and defense but outmatced in tight areas by smgs, pistols and shotguns.
so you really think that shotgun should be stronger than minigun in 1 hex fight ? ;D
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I like the ideas on your first post, many of them got my interest, but just saying that it wouldn't be that a rifle still wouldn't go straight through your skull at 10 hexes, but it would for some reason at 20 Hexes.
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so you really think that shotgun should be stronger than minigun in 1 hex fight ? ;D
Yes I honestly do. Miniguns are bulky, you don't just wave them around as easily as lighter shotguns. There is a reason why soldiers and police use shotguns indoors over machine guns. We just don't have the strategic components to build this kind of balance yet.
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is this RL or fallout ?, i belive that in 2077 were advanceed light , hard set and tough alloys and high technologies which allowed to make portable machine guns and miniguns, we are still in fallout.
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is this RL or fallout ?, i belive that in 2077 were advanceed light , hard set and tough alloys and high technologies which allowed to make portable machine guns and miniguns, we are still in fallout.
But because in fallouts miniguns were later game weapons they are obviously more powerful than most small guns, rendering many potential small gun useless in fonline. Besides, we already voted for gun balance, there's no reason to argue for it again. Where were you when we were discussing whether or not guns should be balanced?
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energy weapons and sniper rifles were later in game too,
i was here :) but i thought this is only next lordus's try how to nerf bigguners, which could be closed soon , well i thought wrong.
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is this RL or fallout ?, i belive that in 2077 were advanceed light , hard set and tough alloys and high technologies which allowed to make portable machine guns and miniguns, we are still in fallout.
yes and Minigun is still 5 x bigger than shotgun. In buildings will always rule small guns such as smgs/pistols/shotguns. Machine guns were always been just covering weapons. Seems I should take your "Rockwell gold card" out of you ;)
This is very good topic btw, hope it will be implemented as fast as possible and we get balanced fights full of dmfferent chars. Only with your graf we have so much possibilities there. Shotguns, smgs, assault riffles and others will be useable! GJ
EDIT: Lordus is not natural sniper, hes objective inhere
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i just hope this will be sg=eg=bg and not sg=eg>bg. well..... I recognize that resistance is futile. [/resistance]
*just took his avenger and left*
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i just hope this will be sg=eg=bg and not sg=eg>bg. well..... I recognize that resistance is futile. [/resistance]
*just took his avenger and left*
Balance is what we seek. No one is trying to boost his favorite weapon class. And if there should be any pattern for guns then it should be SG>(BG=EG). But not in matter of dmg or things like that but in general accessibility of weapons. I mean literary everyone should be able to fight with decent dmg output and SGs should become something common among players. Now its sg/bg/eg or no gun. I think no gunners should turn into small gunners with basic weapon knowledge. Sure I don't want to turn crafter into serial instakill sniper but everyone should be able to defend himself effectively no matter what build he rolls. Now when you take 20 average build guys and crafters from NCR and close them in small room with 4 guys from north then there are small chances that crafters will kill at least 2 powerbuilders. Most of the players in NCR never used gun on something more lethal than molerat and that should change. Thats the problem that causes creaters alts, powerbuilders, powercrafters and all that shit what should never exist in this game... You either choose to PvE or PvP and develop your character that way but you should be always capable of decent combat even if you roll hippie kind of character.
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To allow differend gun roles a new tactical feature could be implemented. It could be sequence which already exists in our SPECIAl. It just hasn't had any use in RT.
So what it means is how fast you can perform an action with certain type of weapon and how fast your character reacts.
For every character the sequence could be around the same, it couldn't be increased greatly with any build. What affected sequence most would be what gun you're using. Pistols gave great bonus to sequence, big guns and snipers could give no plus at all, or even reduce sequence. When you have great sequence your actions with your active item will be performed very quickly. With low sequence there will be a delay because it takes time to turn and aim your gun. With good sequence you would get the advantage of getting to shoot first and switch positions faster to shoot from another direction.
Sequence could be affected by your movement. If you're running, you get very low sequence because you're not prepared to do anything. When you stop moving, your sequence would slowly return to normal depending on your gun. Pistols would regenerate sequence faster. If you're walking, you get again better sequence and while standing still you get the best sequence. We could have a sequence bar to show how fast you will act.
To make big gunners get the first shot even sometimes, we could have third sequence affecting feature: aiming direction. You could take a direction, press certain shortcut and get a field deployed in front of you.
Just like here.
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6205/zomgbrustrofl.jpg)
When someone steps on that field, you get the first shot automatically because the person is right on your sights. This is an important principle in a modern infantry warfare.
To make sequence work correctly, we would have to have autoshoot feature that automatically targets and shoots enemies. Right now pvp is slightly dependent on player's reflexes and that's just not the right way in tactical games.
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about tactics, good thing would be AC bonuses when u are covering yourself, biggest AC bonus could be if you were in building near window. smaller bonus if you were near corner of building, or behind barrel and smallest bonus if you were near tree or street lamp.
these bonuses would be huge for example if you were shooting from window you could have 60 or more AC bonus, because its really hard to hit you if you are shooting from window cover
of course these AC bonuses would depend on weight of weapon you are holding
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about tactics, good thing would be AC bonuses when u are covering yourself, biggest AC bonus could be if you were in building near window. smaller bonus if you were near corner of building, or behind barrel and smallest bonus if you were near tree or street lamp.
these bonuses would be huge for example if you were shooting from window you could have 60 or more AC bonus, because its really hard to hit you if you are shooting from window cover
of course these AC bonuses would depend on weight of weapon you are holding
Correct. And trying to flank an enemy who is in good positions would be a key element in pvp.
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AP ammo with penetrate perk = DT/5 if you didnt know
so you really think that shotgun should be stronger than minigun in 1 hex fight ? ;D
1) there will exist ammo with AP modifier or more DMG modifier in the same caliber.. But it has to be balanced.
2) shotgun should have maybe the same damage on 1-5 hexes like minigun, but minugun should have ability to be powerfull to quite longer distances.
Shotgun should have knockback perk, but i dont know, if this gun perk is usefull (in comparsion with knockdown...)
is this RL or fallout ?, i belive that in 2077 were advanceed light , hard set and tough alloys and high technologies which allowed to make portable machine guns and miniguns, we are still in fallout.
Johnny, please, look carefuly to the single player progress graph. Fallout was singleplayer one and all weapons and armors and skills were created for this purpose. More advance in game, more powerfull weapons. But this current system leads to situatiom, where you have only 2 reasonable PvP classes: sniper and biggunner burster, because they are on the top of the progress graph line. So this is the problem.
I must repeat, i dont like instakills too much, yes, they should be ingame, but sniper should show his PLAYERS (not avatar) skill: sniper will do damage only at high distances, so he must hold distance, insta kill should aim only to eyes, with penalty of miss if your target will more in direction,...
But BGunners have to be changed too. If not, only solution if we want to balance is to make same damages for assault riffles. Then ok, your BG will be the same, but you will cry more.
In my point of view, there should exist 2 very same type of weapons, one in SG class, one in BG class. AK47 for SG (with 7,62 ammo), and LSW for BG (7,62 ammo). They will use the same ammo, so their damage will be different only by number of bursted bullets. Then we can add ability to shoot AK47 single aimed shot, and the line of fire will be quite longer and direct in opposite of LSW (no chance of aim single shots, less longer and direct line, quite bigger bursts).
But in my point of veiw, miniguns have to be reduced by something.. my ideas.
1) 5mm ammo will be less efective than 7,62, so it wil not have same penetration effect nad will do less damage, BUT you will have to make a choice AP or JHP. Also i suggested 2 different types of armors, so as a biggunner, you will have to make a choice of adequate ammo in the battle (not before).
2) I think that with minigun in active slot, you should not run.. If you want to run, you can choose the LSW, or take both or take any SG for defense. I know that you will protest, but try to understand my arguments.
Because of minugun will have quite shorter distance than other guns, you dont need to spend to many points there like other builds need to. So you will be able to spend some points into SG ... not many for sniper riffles or assault riffles weapons, but enough for average SMG or shotgun.. This will allow you to defend yourself until you will deploy minigun. Dont forget, that you will still have choice to take LSW.
3) Because this is very big reduction for miniguns, i think they need have some advantage too (if you dont think that best damage across all weapons until 15-20 hex is not enough). I suggest, that magazines for miniguns class should be bigger by 2-3 times, and, you will be able to load it with 2 kind of ammo together: AP and JHP. Point is, that you will be able to realtime reload by some key shortcut (or at least by right click on icon) (no AP need to change your ammo type). This will give you HUGE advantage on short distances. The reload time of full magazine should be very long (i.e.8 AP), but because you will have 2-3x times more ammo, it wont limit you to much.
4) If players and devs will be against the point of 2 (unable to run with minigun in active slot), THERE must exist something to stop this kind of weapons, because they will be (they are) overal more powerfull than other weapons.
Miniguns are not basic machine guns.. In machine gun, there is not any electronic. But in minigun, you need power generator to rotate the barrels, to load every barrel, etc. etc. So countermeasure will be EMP grenade. EMP grenade should have then disable weapon for short time (at least 15-30 second), so you will be unable to use it. Maybe special EMP shell for rocket launcher will be better too because no many grenadiers will survive the meeting with minigunner.
Sequence:
I like the idea of implementation, but i dont like the limitation in your movement (your movement will be slower).
So, my idea: until your sequence will be normal, your weapon skill will be lower. So if you want to sniper someone, you will have to wait some time (3-5 seconds), until your sequence will be at your normal position. Until this, your skill will raise from cca 50 percent slowly (3-5 sec) to the 95 percent.
SMG, shotguns, pistols will have less requirement for sequence, assault riffles bigger, snipers and BG more..
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Hololasima I don't deny that I might not have as much pvp experience as you do, but I do know that I have much pvp experience with balanced build (skillpoints and perks invested in other than pvp related ones). In these forums it's clearly visible that some people don't have a clue what's it like to pvp with other than powerbuilds.
I like the idea of implementation, but i dont like the limitation in your movement (your movement will be slower).
By movement you mean the delays caused by low sequence or movement (running, walking) increasing ? Because we can't get stances (Lexx said it), differend movement could be made a strategic element. We already have running, walking and standing after all, not using them would be waste of material and everyone would just run and never walk.
So, my idea: until your sequence will be normal, your weapon skill will be lower. So if you want to sniper someone, you will have to wait some time (3-5 seconds), until your sequence will be at your normal position. Until this, your skill will raise from cca 50 percent slowly (3-5 sec) to the 95 percent.
SMG, shotguns, pistols will have less requirement for sequence, assault riffles bigger, snipers and BG more..
So basically it's the accuracy that's reduced. It could work this way too. Yeh, it's probably better that way than not being able to shoot at all. It would be just annoying having to cope with constant delays.
So did I get this straight: a dude with smg decides to shoot a dude from close range. When the player lays his sight on the enemy, the accuracy number starts to raise. It rises depending on the gun and distance. Because the dude is holding an smg, the accuracy rises to 95% very quickly. This would be very good feature if it could be implemented. It would really make the guns good in differend roles.
Another scenario: a sniper is stalking his victim from long range. He sees a big gunner camping a clearing. He lays his sight on the dude and accuracy starts to climb again. It would take few seconds to reach maximum accuracy and then the sniper would choose to fire. He could fire at any time but with less accuracy.
Was this what you had in mind?
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I am only surprised why PvP players dont post some reaction on this. Sorry, but seriously, right now two mens(First dont play and second is mostly PvE player) trying make game what they want.
Holo, i always had a respect of you. But now, i am thinking that i will have to make a little change.
I know, you know it and almost everyone from VSB too, that PvP is totaly unbalanced[/color]. I was always listen crying Johnny about instakills (in second era), when they were eliminated (3rd era) i heard that knocks are ruining the game, because some sniper hold Johnny's biggunner pvp build on ground until he killed him. You, Hololasima, were wery angry when you did realize, that your laser sniper was useless in third era, and you create BG then. In this era, you were posting suggestion about sneak, because it was too overpowered,..
Only 6 guns are now useable in PvP[/color]. 4 of them (both miniguns, lsw, rocket launcher) belongs to BG class. Sniper rifle in sniper class, and laser rifle in EW class. Other dozens of guns are unused because they are too weak. They cant do so much big damage like BG or they cant do hight critical damage on long ranges. THIS IS FACT[/color] I explained why is this happening. (Single player problem definition).
So if we want to make PvP that Fallout deserves, we need to make changes. Sorry if i am telling you the truth, but this PvP tactic possibilites are funny in comparsion if modern games or even old ones. One era PvP wons more players with BG 3x burst build, another era sniper with instakill, then BG, then SG. Almost one year of balancing and we are in the circle.
There were many players realizing this (others than me and VSB), so they invested their time and they created suggestions about changes. But they failed. They failed because they ignore global view on this problem and they failed because they dont involve other players into the solution of this.[/color]
So i had an idea. CREATE NOT SUGGESTION, BUT PROCESS, WITH PRE DEFINE STAGES[/color], that will allow to EVERYONE TO JOIN THiS PROCESS,[/color] but with some STAGES[/color], just because if we want to achieve our goal, we have not to go back after week or month of work.
First stage was this: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4205.0 PvP balancing, part 0., part 1., PvP Constitution . I described there what i described personaly to you and i put there a request that i hope people will join this process.
NOBODY from VSB, except Sius, put anything to this process[/color]. I made another post, where i was little disapointed with this. You Hololasima, had a chance to post your opinion there, but you did not.
Then i made an election about this. The majority agreed with the result of our Constitution.[/color] I repeat, the majority. I dont know if you were voting, but you had a choice!!!!! (In our country, there will be soon Parliament election, so please, dont be disapointed to the result, if you dont vote there).
So we create the Constitution, only Abstract ideas about game itself[/color], and the process went to send stage.
In this stage n.2, EVERYONE is ALLOWED to put here your ideas, but that ideas have to be COMPATIBLE with Constitution[/color], because, we dont want to be in circle, like i described before.
So if you dont understand Holo, YOU HOLO, and YOU VEDARAS, you are very welcome and i hope you will join this process.[/color] But like in real world, there are kind of people, only with negative aproach: "I dont like this, this sucks, you sucks, this is retarded, -1 Lordus,...", but this kind of aproach/people NEVER created something.[/color] So if you dont like our suggestions, put here your another ideas, compatible with the majority liked PvP constitution, or wait, until there will be final vote.
IMO, you Vedaras and you Holo, Johnny, were first thinking, that this process will not have a succes. So you did not care. Why i have to care, i am only Betatester of this project, my n.1 duty is to enjoy my time, not to help developers (sarcasm end). Then you realized, that this process involved more players, interesetd in this game, in PvP, ... so you overreacted. You know, Holo, what me and you and other players from VSB thinks about Vedaras and his ideas (dont take it personal Vedaras). You and me had experienced from many PvP combats and we dont like someone who is ruining this PvP without experience with PvP itself. But i realized, that this current game concept is very flat. One char better to long range, one to close range, thats all (because of Single player problem definition). This is even worse than stone-scissors-paper idea. So i am trying to make something with this. You are not.
Edited by Lordus, the color rainbow is disabled now :)
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And here is the core of the problem. Players and their objectivity. All you can see Holo is the guy who does not play and guy who does PvE. But one does not have to be king of the hill to notice that combat need changes. And everyone can post their ideas and suggestions how to improve things. So far everyone tried to post mostly hotfixes through nerf/boost "solutions" and as you can see its like on the rollercoaster. In one patch we remove instakills. With another we get them back and so on. This is not the way to go. So I believe that Lordus is fighting a good fight here when he is trying to think out of the box. Thats what I miss on current development. Perspective.
So when someone as crabbed as you or Vederas gets here and start judging people (and their ideas/suggestions) then I'm sorry but you are acting like blinded fool. You may see inactive or PvE guys talking about PvP here but its two-edged weapon. In your posts I see shortsighted player that lacks perspective and objectivity. I've worked few years as an admin in once upon a time large gaming community and my job was to be objective and solve other peoples problems. So I consider myself kinda open minded and objective person. And I think the same about Lordus or avv and I doubt they are doing all of this just to profit from it as players if its ever going to be implemented.
And as for the "never going to happen" or "not Fallouty" wannabe arguments then really you should listen to moderators. FOnline is MMORPG if you have not noticed. That fact itself makes out of it something so fucking badly not Fallouty that "not Fallouty" argument sounds next to that like someone puke words. Its based on game we love but it can't be the same. It could be if FOnline is Fallout 1/2 coop but not as MMO. If it ever wants to be working and entertaining game then it must develop its own way how to deal with problems and shut everything down just because its "not Fallouty" (and its not Fallouty since it has not appeared in original games) can come only from really but really ignorant people. I dunno maybe horses are not Fallouty, maybe teleporters or phasers are not Fallouty but using "not Fallouty" argument to shush suggestions? People really wake up.
Anyway I would like to ask moderators to delete any post that does not have anything to add to topic that is being discussed here (including this post). So if there is any moderator around, please delete+modify posts to keep this topic flame free.
EDIT by Surf Solar: Done.
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I will try to entice players into this process by another way.
How do i imagine the future pvp? I will start with example.
I am part of small gang, but with periodical playing temates. So i know, that strategicaly i am unable to control many cities, maybe one is too much for us, but i know, that i can enjoy PvP too. Because we are crafting, trading etc., we have variety of resources and guns and armors, so we can choose best equipment for every combat situarion.
In the time of PvP, i notice, that there are enemies in city. It is well known, powerfull gang with many members. In the city, there are at least 5 biggunners (3 miniguns, 2 LSW), two snipers (SG or EW) and rest of them (5) are assault rifles classes. Because they have to captur the city now, they need to wait there and protect it.
Ok, i know that direct attack will be suicide for our 5 players ready to fight team. So what is our choices?
We know, that they have to wait there until they will capture the city, so we know, that they will not have a chance to change their weapons. So we will take our PvP chars and equip them into night fight.
At night (ingame), perception of all players is reduced by (-2), so all of us will try to equip guns with night vision, so the reduction will be only (-1). Biggunners are unable to take nighvision to their weapons, because they are unable to put the minigun night vision cross hair to near their eyes, because they dont have cross hair, they dont need it.
Enemy snipers are equiped with variable telescope sight, so they have quite bigger range of fire distance than without it (15-50 hex, instead of 20-50 hex), but this kind of telescope sight is not compatible with night sight variant, that our snipers will be equiped.
Also, enemies are expecting bigger enemy forces, so their assault riffles players are without night sight, but they are equiped with attached grenade launcher.
This special kind of grenade launcher has 2 kind of ammo: every types does moderate damage, one has very reducing enemy armor ability (it will almost destroy enemy defence armor ability), but does damage only to one enemy. Other kind has not ability to damage enemy armor, but has splash effect, so it does damage few hexes around hitted targed (even friendly damage). You can load this attached GL only with 1 grenade, reloading another takes to many time (8 ap), so you are not able to reload it in direct fight again. Also, nades are quite heavy, so you dont have many in your equipment. We are expecting, they have splash damage grenades.
Because we know our enemies and their tactic, we know that they are often standing close together, especially at night, because this helps to reduce the chance of "hits from nowhere (cant see the source of the hit)". Because of this, one of our small gunner takes personal grenade launcher.
This kind of weapon does very unconsistent damage. You can fire it at one target, but it will not 100% hit him, even if you have 95% percent of chance to hit. But you are able to shot 3 splash damage nades in one burst near the target, so it has area damage.
So we enter the city in one direction and at night.
We have one pure sniper char.
Sniper char is able to make instakill, but he need to use special one attack. This attack requires this:
1) sniper rifle (or at least hunting, laser rifle)
2) aim with special attack to enemy eyes
3) enemy have to stand in front of you in distance of 20-50 hexes (i have not my variable telescope sight, but night vision)
4) attack .. when you push this, your target have to not move for 2,5 second (half time of AP reloading time, i think). Your AP points will substract from 8 AP, and when they reach 4 AP (or half of the required amount of AP you need to use eyeshot), your gun will fire. This kind of attack will be instakill (or at least high chance of instakill). If your enemy will move, rotate (so you wll not aim to his eyes), your shot will be aimed at the different body part (head, or torso). If somebody will shot you during your instakill fight, you will missed.
// or another way, if you have sniper rifle in your active slot, or change your weapons to slot with sniper rifle, you AP will be zero and they will refresh up only when you are standing still, so you need little time to aim//
5) you can also use classic shot (even eyeshot), like current (eye)shots, but it will never make instakill, even if you hit eye
So we killed one player (sniper with non night vision). At the same moment, our GL smallgunner shot burst of 3 splash damage granades into the group of enemies. Nobody will die, everyone is ligthly damaged, but one of them has crippled leg, so he is unable to counter attack for a moment.
At this moment, enemies realized that they are under attack, they identificate the way from where attack started and they rushed.
But we were quite prepared, our Demoexpert, planted radio controled mines near the corner of expected enemy attack.
This mines are exploding by pushing the button, but there is limitation. You are allowed to plant maximaly 3 bombs at same time, and all of them will explode at one time. 3 of them at one place are enough to kill one player, but demoexpert must stay in contact with bombs (50? hex), or he will not be able to use them. They are armed only if they are placed on ground, they can be destroyed by nades or burst, and because they are connected with Pip boy radio transmiter, only demoexpert could use them. Also, there exist counter measure.. it is kind of jammer. If you are in the location, or over the location (on world map) and you see planted radio mines, you can turn on the jammer. The jammer will for some time checking the radio frequency, and after some time, it will 100% find all frequencies of deployed radio mines. Then you will have a choice, explode it (all of them) in one time, or jamm the owners radio controler so they will be unable to explode (if you are continue in jamming, if you die, and mines are still there, the owner will be able to control them again). More skill in traps, more time enemy needs to find the frequency, and of course, more skill in traps, less time i will need to fing the enemy frequency. But limit should be cca 2-3 minutes. So it will be unable to block the entrances by mines (if you will have enough demoexperts), but you will be able to block some space for short time or prepare the trap.
Enemy does expected this kind of trap, so they fire there one nade from attached GL.. it destroys 2 radio mines, but 3rd exploded and criplled enemy leg, so he was unable to rush.
(exploding guns have generaly bigger chance to cripple than to kill (if you have at least some unbroken armor on yourself), so if you have combat medic with doctors bag, you can heal your mates quickly and they are able to continue in fight.)
But their huge counter attack continues, we are moving to north of the city, to hide near buildings. But one of us, smalgunner with P90 with attached noice absorber is sneaking at toilet and their rush wave did not noticed him.
His P90 with attached noice absorber allows him to shoot burst for little less distance, than this gun is originaly designed, but with ability to stay in sneak after burst (75 percent after first burst, 75 after second, .. so he has total chance of 50 percent after two bursts to stay in sneak (75 + his luck)).
He waits until the wave is gone and then he attack in sneak the injured one, he kill him, stay in sneak and then he tries to find enemy sniper. Enemy sniper is defenceless until he will change his weapon. He changes to desert eagle, when he see enemy sneaker. He shoots one eyeshot, he succed, but 2 bursts from enemy P90 and one grenade is killing him.
Reloading the weapon should (generaly, but with exception) take more time than changing active slot and use secondary weapon.
Enemy rush continues, we are shoting at longer distances, because we have night vision, but than five of their biggunners rush our team, and because they have unbalanced weapons, they run to our position, 3x burst us on 40 hex distance with their avengers and they killed us. End of tactic story.
:P
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Yeh pvp would totally need some more strategic features the way you described it Lordus. Maybe not completely like that, but I do agree with the sniper aiming delay. We can add all sorts of cool gadgets like nightvision, silencers and jammers later. It can be hard to hold our horses when it comes to inventing new things. Let's still just keep it to the basics and try not get too carried away.
So the subject is still balance. It includes characters and weapons both. Let's try to outline some basic principles for character balance, lock them and move forward.
So question is: how are we going to make it so that every character has equal chances to pvp effectively? Problems which this goal faces are too high potentials in skills, too high potential to be good or bad at something and unbalanced perks.
I've wrote this things earlier but I'll write them again. Characters can be absolute monsters in pvp or total losers. A character can have 3 actions points and very low hitpoints. Nobody wants to play this kind of character. Some perks are obviously pvp related, others are not but don't give good enough tradeoff.
So what should be done is that character build only determines what your economic source will be and how you will fight. Not how good you will be in getting your money and defeating your enemies, that's when your own skills step in.
Skills and stats would unlock perks. Skills would mainly unlock perks and profesions, weapon skills wouldn't affect accuracy because in the end your accuracy will be determined by your weapon, range, enviroment and armors. Profesion related skills would still determine chance of success because healing another player cannot be made dependent on player's skills.
Stats would give some passive character propertiers like now, except that their worst values should be changed. Nobody wants to play combat char with en1 or agi1. Pe1 is very bad aswell. So we gotta have minimum possible ap, hp and field of view. And perks unlockable with stat ammounts of 1,2,3,4 and 5, not just over five like it is now. This prevents players from just dumping stats they don't need.
Let's try to nail these character issues, then we could move onward to weapons and lock the balance chapter.
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ahh now i know why there arent any posts by PvP players, its because solar deleted it all. ;D ;D
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ahh now i know why there arent any posts by PvP players, its because solar deleted it all.
And you forget, I am also PvP player, IMO same quality like you. Only reason, why i am not fighting is because of school duties.
So, if you are brain damaged, i will repeat, make yourself topic for whiners, here put only constructive posts. It is so hard to understand???
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How are we going to make it so that every character has equal chances to pvp effectively?
I will not change current SPECIAL and PERK system, i will try to make changes in weapons area, and give them more abilities.
My idea:
1) Create character - this will set the mantinels of your future PvP combat style
2) Arm yourself - this will give you possibilites of PvP combat styles
3) Use your personal skills (not character one) - your character and weapons use will depend mainly on you
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1) Create character .. more universal or less universal.
a) more universal characters will be able to use effectively more kind of weapons, maybe across the weapon skills
b) less universal character (specialized) will be able to use effectively only one kind of weapon, so they will be perfect in one kind of situation, but they will fail in another. So they will need backup or teamates to support them.
2) Arm yourself.
In every weapon class you wll have choice to take at least 2 weapons with different play style ability (maybe different perks).
3) Kind of clasess created by combination of PvP build and weapons.
I.e. if you have BG skill, you are able to be soldier of 2 classes, if you change your weapon.
a) SNIPERS
SG snipers and EW snipers. They are kind of specialized character, but they can also use other weapons. Like i described before, instakill should be specil kind of eyeshot, so you need to wait 2-3 until your gun will shot on enemy, so this kind of shot will not be for rushing.
b) Hit n Run
SMG weapon class, they can reload their AP even if they are moving and firing. They have less distance than assault riffles, but almost the same as big guns (big guns have longer distance, but they are effective only at limited range - 20 hex).
c) Assault rifles
Weapons with average damage, but with many possibilities (night sight, attached grenade launcher - you need throw skill too -, laser sights, silencers...). You can modifi basic type with this kind of stuff. Their fire line is very constant (distance), also they can use aimshot (not eyeshot) so they can slow enemy or they can cripple him, if they are lucky.
d) LSW .. kind of assault rifle for big gunners.. no penalty for running, quite bigger damage than As. riffles, but fire line is quite decreasing (distance). They have not ability to aim or to use upgrades
e) Tanks .. with miniguns.. unable to run with gun with active slot, but the biggest firepower to 20 hex distance. They can chose type of ammo they will shoot realtime by swithinng the type without penalty of losing AP. Their reload time si very big, but they have very big magazines (240) ammo, so they dont need to reload often. Ideal for defense, bad for attack.
f) supportive weapons :
SG grenate launcher (area damage insted of one person damage),
Rocket launchers (not a biggun skill, but traps?throwing?) so even a smallgunner or ew player should use this weapon if he invest enough points into other skill. (shells are very heavy, reload time is very long, shell is very expensive, but it does big damage, even if you have 95 percent chance to hit, you dont hit target, but it does also area damage, so it is not so big problem. Like a sniper weapon, you need a time before you shoot, you cant run with this weapon in active slot).
g) medics
h) demoexperts
---------------------------------> as i described, if you change your weapon, you will change your class and play style.
So we have to balance playstyles (combat class) first, weapons an other will be in second wave.
IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.
Then we can modify the weapons or skills needs to each playstyle.
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What about Specialist Class.
1. Massive ability to sneak, able to get up close and personal with enemies.
2. Cannot handle any ranged weapons, except for the Shotguns and Short ranged pistols.
3. Masters of Melee/HtH, large crit chance, if behind enemy when attacking, causes an isntant backstab/Neckbreaker (Warning, contains traces of instakill(100% chance that is).
4. Natural choice for getting rid of enemy snipers, however, they cannot use their sneak for more than 45 seconds at a time, and then need a 10 seconds cooldown, after sneak has dissipated.
5. Only useful when you can get up close and personal with your enemy, the assasin would have a deathwish if they'd want to fight a biggunner with an LSW.
6. Able to run while in sneak mode.
7. Highly proficient with placing mines and demo packs, able to remake a part of the battlefield into a carpet of death and destruction.
8. Unable to sneak effectively in a bluesuit.
fuck
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I will not change current SPECIAL and PERK system, i will try to make changes in weapons area, and give them more abilities.
Sadly our special and people's choices in that system hugely decide how effective their character will become. If you don't absolutely choose the right perks, right skills and right stats you will be weaker. At least skill caps must be reduced because if you invest 300 in small guns to become good sniper, you don't get any spare points for profesions and are strongly encouraged to create yourself a support alt. Character build musn't decide too much how powerful you are by default, but what you will become.
1) Create character - this will set the mantinels of your future PvP combat style
2) Arm yourself - this will give you possibilites of PvP combat styles
3) Use your personal skills (not character one) - your character and weapons use will depend mainly on you
Okay seems alright, but as stated pvp must be balanced for all. This also means characters with profesions. Then again profesion characters would become just less universal in pvp but still powerful because the situation and weapons are the ones that decide comabt's outcome.
Like this: gun crafters and armorers become combat mechanics, high cha builds become leaders, doctors become medics, outdoorsman guys become scouts, traps guys become demolition experts and thieves become backstabbers.
But I was just thinking that what weapons would those characters with profesions use. Could an armorcrafter use sniper? Or would he absolutely have to spend all skillpoints, perks and stats in sniping related ones to be a good sniper?
So we have to balance playstyles (combat class) first, weapons an other will be in second wave.
Then we got to start thinking what kind of impact should weapon skill%, stats and perks have on the character's performance. As you know for example PE1 dude has no role in firefight.
IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.
Couldn't we somehow mend lsw and minigun build because both are actually big guns with high fire rate? Same could be done with smg and assault rifle guys because they are both similar guns with just little differences. So lsw&minigun would become support, smg&AR would become grunt. In the end support would just choose most suitable gun for his incoming mission, as well as grunt. If support is going to attack he takes a little lighter big gun but in defense he uses the heavier.
Well mechanic, scout and leader are missing. Plus gordulan's rambo build. I had similar thing in mind: a melee-oriented dude who takes out snipers but i'd take out the explosives ability because that's demo expert's job. Then we could have ahbobsaget build with psycho, heavy armor and supersledge. Takes out little groups in small rooms or single enemies with good ambush.
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lol how about this, ur bored u wanna pvp u got to a merc in ncr or wherever u tell im fed up with the world i wann shot soome prics, he give su high gun and armor and somestims (dependig on ur skills) FOR FREE the ur off shooting, drawback is u can shoot anything except for players (shoot some rats or crazies for loot is not accpetible, or maybe u can shoot them bt u get no exp and no loot, and u cant shoot inside towns) There, that s should solve this issue.
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Ok so I've finally forced myself to write down something about those abilities. So here we go:
Abilities should be something extra, that grant bonuses to various actions for out avatar. They can either boost our aim, make reload with pistols cost less AP, or make us harder to kill etc. The point is that they should be only combat based (offense/defense/survivability...) and everyone should have exact the same amount of ability points to play around. The main difference between abilities and perks is that abilities form our character step by step and only in the specific way. Thanks to tree structure you will have to spend ability points in those weaker abilities first in order to reach for those more powerful ones (so you will be either very good in offense but your defense will suck or vice versa or something between it etc = you can't take only those powerful abilities). Also abilities should be very specific in what they boost so there should be various ways how to spend our points in order to reach different bonuses for different types of weapons/armors/items or actions themselves. Perks act on general level when if you take More crit then its +5% crit chance for everything you fight with. Abilities should boost only specific equipment/actions (so reloading shotgun should not be the same as reloading assault rifle and abilities should affect only certain group or groups of equipment and only those powerful ones will work generally with everything just like perks do) and that should result in creation of endless possibilities how to roll your character. So with proper choice of abilities you could roll tank like shotgunner, long range combat hitman, indestructible mele bar fighter etc...
- abilities are addition to current special/skill/perks system
- they stand alone but they could be linked to special/skills because of balancing
(So in order to unlock certain ability one will have to meet the requirements that could be like "110% SG, at least 4 ST...". But such restrictions should be rather rare and only for top abilities.)
- abilities can be divided into two types. Active and passive.
Passive: once player choose passive ability it takes effect immediately and its permanent or its event triggered. (Example: "Born to command = You gain +1 AC per player in you group, that is in same location as you are. In addition those who follow you gain one time bonus of +5% accuracy if they are in your FoV.")
Active: player have to trigger active ability in order to gain bonus from it. They have short duration or they are one time actions and they have cooldown that defines how often we can use them, (Example: "Spray'n'pray = You burst fire in your opponents direction. You have higher chance to ignore his armor but your aim gets worse and only few bullets hit the target.")
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4375/abilities.png)
There are numerous ways how to introduce them ingame. Either you gain ability points each level and you can spend them right after you level up or introduce something like trainers into the game. Each time you level up you will still gain ability point but you won't be able to spend it until you get trained. There could be different types of trainers for different types of abilities so in order to learn how to defend yourself better you will have to learn from "defense trainer" that could be presented ingame by an old raider that changed sides and now lives normal life or something like that (eg someone skilled who is capable of training you). Anyway problem is the lack of choice. With current level cap there are 7/5 perks and 140/600 skillpoints to play around. If we would get ability points each lvl then thats 20 ability points to spend. Thats way too low. So in order to make our char development rather "step by step" than "leap by leap" I suggest another char related changes.
Raise lvl cap 4 times but reduce perk power and skillpoints gained per lvl equally to that. So with 4x21=84 lvl cap average char would have 28 perks to choose from (and instead +5% crit chance, they should add +1/2% and have more ranks to choose from) and instead of 15 skillpoints per lvl (with IN 5) we would get 15/4=4. Level speed should not be changed until game offers more activities how to level up (quests, repeatable quests, dungeons, faction missions, alternative source of exp etc...). With such lvl cap we could finally get decent number of ability points to play with. Lets say that we start gaining ability points from 5th lvl. That leaves us with 78 points to spend on various abilities that will form our character.
So with 84 lvl cap we would get 28/21 perks (with reduced effects but more ranks or maybe just more various perks to choose from), 140/600 skillpoints and 78 ability points to form our character. And that could pretty much mean you will never ever encounter someone with the same build as you are. Sure there will be always something more popular than the rest but compared to current clone like character development it leaves way more freedom.
Anyway main reason why I'm talking about something like abilities here is that we need something that provides us with tactical choices in combat and make characters differ from each other. Perks seems like good choice for that, but their mechanics (available only once in 3/4 levels) won't allow anything more complex. If we could choose from way more perks and they would be somehow limited so you won't be able to choose only those good ones, then we could make such changes through them. But I don't think it suits Fallout to mess around with perks (just like Fallout 3 did). Instead I came up with this as something additional that stands away from bounding mechanics and can do whatever we want it to do. So its completely up to us how to make fights more tactical and how to create more different builds (other than just big gunner or eg/sg sniper) and I believe that current char development just don't have proper tools how to reach that.
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You know sius perks, skills and profesions already have potential to make our characters specialized and stand out from each other. Right now it's just too encouraging to spend all skillpoints in combat skills and not to take any profesions for combat chars. If all skills provided use in pvp, players would be encouraged to use them aswell. In addition we lack interesting perks that really make our characters stand out from each other. Additional damage, crit chance and resistance is not interesting, it's just something you have to take if you want to do good.
I agree that level cap could be raised, or we could just give more perk slots. 7 perks is very little, it is enough to make you a powerful fighter but there's no room for any utility.
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Yeah it certainly is a way to go. Making (every?) skill usable in combat would definitely bring some more variety but the main problem is the lack of choices during character development. Thats why I've wrote all that abilities stuff. When you compare FOnline and other MMOs then there is one main difference. Classes.
They provide ultimate way how to satisfy any player that comes along. One like some fist fights then he will most likely roll Monk. Another guy enjoys burning people from safe distance well then he will roll Pyro mage etc...
In FOnline you can choose your "class" during gameplay but here is the problem. We have only 7/5 choices to do so. In other MMOs you are defined not only by your class but also by your (in most cases) talents and equipment and all that can create countless variations from just one class. F.e. when I played WoW I rolled a priest. With 3 tags in talent tree I could roll discipline/holy/shadow priest but thats not it. Even when I've chosen to be shadow priest there were at least 3 main ways how to play just in PvP. One was mana burner/dispeler, another was survival based, next was pure dmg dealer etc. And I was able to support each build with different type of equipment to suit my situation.
I'm not trying to make FOnline another wow copy, but I lack character development in it since I don't consider 7/5 choices as a development.
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IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.
Then we can modify the weapons or skills needs to each playstyle.
What about mercenaries ?
Instead of gun, it could be fun to use mercenaries.
All the "class" that you describe are, IMO, not support class.
What about some "leader" character (maybe know as taxi for now... depend of the point of view ^^) who can help fighter during battle. For exemple:
- Ability to share FOV: a character, with some requirment (charisma, perks, maybe speech skill... don't know... and it's not realy important for now), can share his and his teammate FOV with all his group.
- Ability to "control" NPC: same character with same requirment could for exemple say to all the civilian NPC in his FOV to stay home (not realy usefull... exept if the penality for killing a civilian is very huge... but fun anymore ^^)
About mercs control: depending of some requirement (perks? or speech like unarmed: if you have 100% you can use the first hability, 150% the second...) you have new option when you talk to your merks:
- Bodyguard: You can promote your merk as your personal bodyguard, and next time someone is shooting on you... your body guard take the damage... not you (of course it NEED balancing... maybe your mercs should get instant kill nevermind the damage he take... but it's not the main subject here).
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This is just a little exemple...
IMO, the biggest part of the game is about fighting, so every character should be usefull in battle. I'm sure that medic "class", sneak character and other no-fighter character (Crafter too) can have some support abilities during battle.
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My concrete idea about old and new PvP classes.
Motto: lets do at least one little step
Current existing (usable) PvP classes:
1) BIG GUNNER BURSTER
BG char with cca 200+ HP (2x lifegiver), 10-12 AP (depends on perks)... you know it very well, NO CHANGES from current state
2) SNIPER SG/EW , NO CHANGES from current state
Also, i dont need to explain it, everybody knows.
New PvP classes:
3) Assault riffle class .. everything will stay like now, but AR weapons (AR, XL, ...) should have one new perk: per one burst, -2 AP for target
This will make AR players supportive kind of pvp class. This will slow enemy 10-12-14 AP biggunners, but one AR class could not kill them (because AR class needs reload too, and their damage is funny in comparsion with BG). But it will bring new kind of tactic situation, when one or 2 SG can neutralize enemy player and another teamate should kill him. Targed could only retreat then (but he will SURVIVE!!!).
4) P90 class .. make bigger magazine for this weapon, raise it to 50 bullets (like real world P90). Additional perk: one bullet hit target = +1 det. to target armor... 50 hits (all magazine = + 50 det.), Realize that distance of this gun is shorter than miniguns, so this is not as big threat as it looks.
Also, think if P90 in hand will add ability to refresh AP even in movement or during shooting. (if current game system could not implement this change, do not implement this one minor one change)
This current changes are not so radical, current existing builds will stay, they will have all their current ability, new builds will not beat old ones in ANY current ability (firepower, distance, ...). New builds will be powerfull only in cooperation with other players, one new build will be ALWAYS weaker than current builds. This changes could be implemented very fast, because they use existing game mechanism (AP lost, det. of armor,..). So i think this changes should be great test of Developers interest of PvP balancing, I hope that any of current PvP player will protest againts this minor changes and last but not least, THIS WILL ADD SOME NEW TACTIC ELEMENT into the PvP game. Consider it like TEST, if in current unbalanced system we could add new PvP class without nerfing another weapons and builds..
P.S.: If new classes will be too weak, we can experimentaly raise their ability later..
So, what do you think?
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My concrete idea about old and new PvP classes.
Current existing (usable) PvP classes:
1) BIG GUNNER BURSTER
BG char with cca 200+ HP (2x lifegiver), 10-12 AP (depends on perks)... you know it very well, NO CHANGES from current state
2) SNIPER SG/EW , NO CHANGES from current state
Also, i dont need to explain it, everybody knows.
New PvP classes:
3) Assault riffle class .. everything will stay like now, but AR weapons (AR, XL, ...) should have one new perk: per one burst, -2 AP for target
This will make AR players supportive kind of pvp class. This will slow enemy 10-12-14 AP biggunners, but one AR class could not kill them (because AR class needs reload too, and their damage is funny in comparsion with BG). But it will bring new kind of tactic situation, when one or 2 SG can neutralize enemy player and another teamate should kill him. Targed could only retreat then (but he will SURVIVE!!!).
4) P90 class .. make bigger magazine for this weapon, raise it to 50 bullets (like real world P90). Additional perk: one bullet hit target = +1 det. to target armor... 50 hits (all magazine = + 50 det.), Realize that distance of this gun is shorter than miniguns, so this is not as big threat as it looks.
Also, think if P90 in hand will add ability to refresh AP even in movement or during shooting. (if current game system could not implement this change, do not implement this one minor one change)
This current changes are not so radical, current existing builds will stay, they will have all their current ability, new builds will not beat old ones in ANY current ability (firepower, distance, ...). New builds will be powerfull only in cooperation with other players, one new build will be ALWAYS weaker than current builds. This changes could be implemented very fast, because they use existing game mechanism (AP lost, det. of armor,..). So i think this changes should be great test of Developers interest of PvP balancing, I hope that any of current PvP player will protest againts this minor changes and last but not least, THIS WILL ADD SOME NEW TACTIC ELEMENT into the PvP game.
P.S.: If new classes will be too weak, we can experimentaly raise their ability later..
So, what do you think?
You didnt really suggest anything besides assault rifle getting a buff and p90c detoriate armor... However p90c burster class is ALLREADY in game and its pretty good too. You stated the "NO CHANGE" in current bg builds and sniper builds. you got me concerned by that, since 2238 pvp will not be balanced without some drastic changes to current powerbuilds. I even think that it's needed to rebuild character creation completly to make it enjoyable, semi-balanced and playable.
I have a sniper, energy sniper and 2 bugguners now. Bigguner with hyperfast deadly long range bursts ON PSYCHO i am a super fast, hard to knockdown/knockback shitload of HP TANK with the biggest damage output to get. As a secondary weapon i use plasma granade bursts only in case my opponent used a psycho too. Snipers will never be that deadly as BG if nothing changes. Snipers raly on armor bypassing crits and knockdowns. and we all know it's not that easy to score an armor bypass/knockdown shot. If you don't get lucky enough to both Crit and then Knockdown with that crit= you are pretty much dead from BG bursts even if you wear a BA. Using psycho on sniper? i would NOT recommend it so snipers are prone to bullets. Oh one more thing: Energy snipers: Good for pve since pve monsters usually dont have much plasma/laser resistance. In pvp you will have worse damage output if your shot didnt bypass armor, because energy weapons reisstances are taken from original fallout and they were there to provide protection from late game critters with plasmas and lasers and shit.
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What about some "leader" character (maybe know as taxi for now... depend of the point of view ^^) who can help fighter during battle. For exemple:
- Ability to share FOV: a character, with some requirment (charisma, perks, maybe speech skill... don't know... and it's not realy important for now), can share his and his teammate FOV with all his group.
Something like this would rock and it would definitely be useful. Leader would be the typical role in pvp for charisma builds.
IMO, the biggest part of the game is about fighting, so every character should be usefull in battle. I'm sure that medic "class", sneak character and other no-fighter character (Crafter too) can have some support abilities during battle.
That's right, fighting is the most important part because in it players actually compete against each other. However you must realize that every character must be allowed to fight.
Nobody wants to play a pacifist medic who just heals people in battlefield. He can heal, but he should be able to pull the trigger aswell. Healing is just his special ability, fighting is everybody's default ability. I mean think of it this way: surviving in wasteland demands being able to kill or be killed. If a character cannot fight, he possibly cannot exist in the wasteland because he always dies when meeting hostilities.[/list]
So, what do you think?
Well even then the combats would be over way too fast, you can't have much strategy if you die in few shots. You said it yourself that little steps won't help in this matter and it's true. Until we get the right picture, the pvp system could be slowly rolled towards that goal. So far we only have discussed the main principles and are still wondering how to balance the pvp.
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Well even then the combats would be over way too fast, you can't have much strategy if you die in few shots. You said it yourself that little steps won't help in this matter and it's true. Until we get the right picture, the pvp system could be slowly rolled towards that goal. So far we only have discussed the main principles and are still wondering how to balance the pvp.
But i doubt now, if devs will implement such a radical changes, if it affects BGuns.. So i suggest this, very minor gun update, and we can see, if this will add another class or not. It is not question of months (like this total conversion is), but question of a day. And i think that this could be new tactit element in the game and we can test, in real fight, if this kind of chages has some effect in PvP.
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But i doubt now, if devs will implement such a radical changes, if it affects BGuns.. So i suggest this, very minor gun update, and we can see, if this will add another class or not. It is not question of months (like this total conversion is), but question of a day. And i think that this could be new tactit element in the game and we can test, in real fight, if this kind of chages has some effect in PvP.
Well sure it would be worth testing if devs bothered to do it, many things are worth testing. I wouldn't personally test it because pvp right now demands so much resources.
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Well sure it would be worth testing if devs bothered to do it, many things are worth testing. I wouldn't personally test it because pvp right now demands so much resources.
all existing snipers will only take assult riffle or xl or fn fal and they can test it immediately... ïn big gangs, these kind of weapons are unused so they have dozens of this weapons.
And developers will not test this, only PvP players. Developrs does not PvP as i know. They are testing new graphics, server code,... so they can directly view the results, but in PvP, we, PvP players will be the judges os this.
I have to repeat, this is not radical change. No bigguner should be scared, he will rule his area like before. Only with combination with another players this could be a useful tactic..
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And developers will not test this, only PvP players. Developrs does not PvP as i know. They are testing new graphics, server code,... so they can directly view the results, but in PvP, we, PvP players will be the judges os this.
Well so far pvp players testing and reporting anything has been bad, they just use what's best for them and be silent. Only few pvp players actually actively send their ideas and discuss things here.
What should be done is a closed city-arena separate from whole wasteland. There players could wage eternal war against each other with infinite ammo and equipment. There resources wouldn't matter and we could only test how things act in pvp. This way testing would be concentrated on one thing only and we'd get much more material to measure than by playing the game in ordinary way.
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I am ending my participation on this process.
I realize something.
The purpose of this was to involve many players to make balance multiplayer PvP system like Fonline (and Fallout) deserves. I hoped that if one suggestion will be supported by many players, it could help developers to make right changes.
But now i see that existing PvP players dont want to change anything on their builds, they dont even want to add something new to unused class of weapons because they are afraid that they will lost their supremacy.
Non PvP-experienced players, or many of them, did not see the need to make change, because if they are killed by PK power build, they think that it is becaus of numbers of enemy players, or because they did not take their best stuff. They did not realize, that if we could succeed with this, they will no need to create pvp powerbuild to defend themself in mines or in unguarded city, if they dont meet enemy there.
So i realize, that in this process is imposible to achieve n.1 goal. I like that many players put their ideas here, like Avv, Sius, because their idea were inteligent, with good amount of overview of the problem. But if we will continue with this boys, it will be only something like accademic debate with no chance of realization. I admit that i have not personal requirements and time to create own pvp system and put it my own SDK project. Also i think that community of fallout is not so wide, so separation of players into more projects will not be the best way.
But at least, we have defined why is current system unbalanced, we have move our point of view on the pvp builds (that we did not calculate only with 2 classes (sniper and burst one (BG), that we realize that balancing across sniper class and BG is moving in circles from the first era.
But i predict, that if you want to balance small guns class (no sniper class) and grenade, HtH, melee, with any others, it will not be possible without visible nerfing of BG and sniper class, or hidden (createting ANTI BG class/anti sniper class).
My epiloque is, that i still think, that PvP system of Fonline is not kind of that Fallout multiplayer modification deserves.
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aw man dont give up. I mean yeah we have a situation that reminds me the curruption of the monetary system... but maybe someday... well untill SDK is released. im pretty sure that I will have enough free time to rework whole fonline character and pvp system. Who knows- many suggestions in this thread sounded reasonable :] btw. Anyone who would like to help me is welcome when SDK is released
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Hum, you did a great job and I respect all the time you take for this...
Why I don't post before? Because you totally lose me in the class / ability proposition / etc.., for me the game have to stay close to original fallout... not a WOW in Fallout univers...
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Hum, you did a great job and I respect all the time you take for this...
Why I don't post before? Because you totally lose me in the class / ability proposition / etc.., for me the game have to stay close to original fallout... not a WOW in Fallout univers...
Thats why this thread is here. To FIND the best solution and then support it with majority of players and set things in motion. And until people start to care about the game and how to improve it then it will lead us nowhere.
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Hum, you did a great job and I respect all the time you take for this...
Why I don't post before? Because you totally lose me in the class / ability proposition / etc.., for me the game have to stay close to original fallout... not a WOW in Fallout univers...
Thx.
Class system is only name for build you created. No new perks, quests, proffesion is needed. (we have sniper class now, it is 10 pe + 10 lck + snper rifle or laser rifle,....). I tried to find new possible roles for different builds.
When devs transformed TB single player game into the realtime multiplayer, everybody was testing new possible chars. After few eras, builds crystalized to best shapes and this determines the player combat behaviour.
I think, that if devs want to create more variable game, they have to invented new class (new kind of char combat behaviour), which will be enough strong to challenge current builds(char combat behaviours) and then to set up required atributes (character/weapons/enviroment) to adequate level.
I.e.: Grenadier.
What is his purpose: main battle unit? support? ok, support.. in which way: harm enemies? destroy their armors? "blind enemy"? Ok last one is good. Its purpose will be to temporary blind (1PE) and immobilize (slow movement only and -xx of AP of target). This will be counter weapon agaisnt BGuns. How we can effectively achive this purpose? Use sneak. But how many sneak we will need? Lets make prototype of grenadier, with max throwing range, set up other SPECIAL points and calculate how many skill points will left if you have that rest point in inteligence. Hmm, this is not enough, because other chars can do the same with better (better firepower) gun. Hmm, lets set up some perk/limits for other weapons/... . We have everything ready? Lets test it, if it is already useful as it looks in our heads.
I think that it is hopeless if devs will add at random new skill/weapon in expectation of natural balance. Especially if firepower of some weapons is too big and there is not place for others.
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Well now what? We had a promising thread going on, well promising by means of its subject but not by means of players participating it. It was good to have some discussions in matter-of-fact way. Thanks to Sius, Lordus and Drakonis for participating. A disagreeing opposition would have been welcome but it failed to discuss the subject in decent manner.
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Well now what? We had a promising thread going on, well promising by means of its subject but not by means of players participating it. It was good to have some discussions in matter-of-fact way. Thanks to Sius, Lordus and Drakonis for participating. A disagreeing opposition would have been welcome but it failed to discuss the subject in decent manner.
I don't see the point of arguing because it is like the picture with a face and lamp, one person sees a lamp another person sees a face when looking at the same picture. To be able to have an intelligent conversation you need to be able to see both, and I am sorry to say but most of the active posters here are lacking that.
P.S I don't play BG.
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I don't see the point of arguing because it is like the picture with a face and lamp, one person sees a lamp another person sees a face when looking at the same picture. To be able to have an intelligent conversation you need to be able to see both, and I am sorry to say but most of the active posters here are lacking that.
P.S I don't play BG.
Facts:
- Discussion was opened to IMPROVE pvp. making fights longer and more interesting... and FUN.
- Implementing some new tactics
- increasing number of possibilites while fighting.
- making pvp less perk/build dependant so we actually have more PvP rather than just POWERBUILDvsPOWERBUILD or POWERBUILDvsDEADMEAT
For saying that we lack ability to see from diffrent perspectives I must say you are a hypocrite, man. Seriously: I'm a dedicated rolepayer however in my lifetime iI trained about 20 powerbuilds in purposes of PK/testing/discovering new possiblities. I hava participated in both big and minor pvp. Ambushes and open fights. Usually I hide under a fake name because most "PvPers" hate me for my roleplaying suggestions and I could never get to try xx vs xx pvp.
I have been TESTING 2238 for many many month with a recent break for 5 months. after my return I allready trained 5 characters to 21 in matter of days per. I can assure you that fights are too fast. PvP is way too much character build dependant and overalll fun/frustration ratio is still suffering. I mean you have to spenda lot of time to get stuff you can usually loose in matter of seconds(and thats what usually happens for people from smaller gangs/loners). I see both sides and I see that current PvP database is afraid of changes in fear of loosing their SUPREMACY. 2238 is corrupted and infested with power greedy factions, rather than populated by real deal testers that would like to see the game improved(of course there are exceptions.. but still.
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I agree 100% with Drakonis. Lots of players play FOnline not to betatest but to use not balanced or completly overpowered 'features' that often happen to be in beta test and are all aggrovated when someone is pointing things that need to be balanced.
And instead of betatest we have feast of increasing e-penis by using overpowered 'stuff'. I looked at this thread and it seems to be all okay and nice, however my hope for FOnline to have balanced PvP and gamepley are long gone and I give up with them when I meet such an carrupted betatesters in game and on forum...