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I agree, absolutely

12 (34.3%)

I agree, but i would change something

8 (22.9%)

I disagree, because of some ideas

6 (17.1%)

I disagree, absolutely

4 (11.4%)

I abstain

5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: May 08, 2010, 07:57:26 pm

[Lordus]

ahh now i know why there arent any posts by PvP players, its because solar deleted it all.

 And you forget, I am also PvP player, IMO same quality like you. Only reason, why i am not fighting is because of school duties.

 So, if you are brain damaged, i will repeat, make yourself topic for whiners, here put only constructive posts. It is so hard to understand???
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 How are we going to make it so that every character has equal chances to pvp effectively?

 I will not change current SPECIAL and PERK system, i will try to make changes in weapons area, and give them more abilities.

  My idea:
 
 1) Create character - this will set the mantinels of your future PvP combat style
 2) Arm yourself - this will give you possibilites of PvP combat styles
 3) Use your personal skills (not character one) - your character and weapons use will depend mainly on you
---------------------------------
1) Create character .. more universal or less universal.

 a) more universal characters will be able to use effectively more kind of weapons, maybe across the weapon skills
 b) less universal character (specialized) will be able to use effectively only one kind of weapon, so they will be perfect in one kind of situation, but they will fail in another. So they will need backup or teamates to support them.

 2) Arm yourself.
 In every weapon class you wll have choice to take at least 2 weapons with different play style ability (maybe different perks).

 3) Kind of clasess created by combination of PvP build and weapons.

 I.e. if you have BG skill, you are able to be soldier of 2 classes, if you change your weapon.

  a) SNIPERS
 SG snipers and EW snipers. They are kind of specialized character, but they can also use other weapons. Like i described before, instakill should be specil kind of eyeshot, so you need to wait 2-3 until your gun will shot on enemy, so this kind of shot will not be for rushing.

  b) Hit n Run
 SMG weapon class, they can reload their AP even if they are moving and firing. They have less distance than assault riffles, but almost the same as big guns (big guns have longer distance, but they are effective only at limited range - 20 hex).

 c) Assault rifles
 Weapons with average damage, but with many possibilities (night sight, attached grenade launcher - you need throw skill too -, laser sights, silencers...). You can modifi basic type with this kind of stuff. Their fire line is very constant (distance), also they can use aimshot (not eyeshot) so they can slow enemy or they can cripple him, if they are lucky.

 d) LSW .. kind of assault rifle for big gunners.. no penalty for running, quite bigger damage than As. riffles, but fire line is quite decreasing (distance). They have not ability to aim or to use upgrades

 e) Tanks .. with miniguns.. unable to run with gun with active slot, but the biggest firepower to 20 hex distance. They can chose type of ammo they will shoot realtime by swithinng the type without penalty of losing AP. Their reload time si very big, but they have very big magazines (240) ammo, so they dont need to reload often. Ideal for defense, bad for attack.

 f) supportive weapons :
    SG grenate launcher (area damage insted of one person damage),
    Rocket launchers (not a biggun skill, but traps?throwing?) so even a smallgunner or ew player should use this weapon if he invest enough points into other skill. (shells are very heavy, reload time is very long, shell is very expensive, but it does big damage, even if you have 95 percent chance to hit, you dont hit target, but it does also area damage, so it is not so big problem. Like a sniper weapon, you need a time before you shoot, you cant run with this weapon in active slot).

 g) medics

 h) demoexperts

---------------------------------> as i described, if you change your weapon, you will change your class and play style.

 So we have to balance playstyles (combat class) first, weapons an other will be in second wave.

 IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.

 Then we can modify the weapons or skills needs to each playstyle.

[gordulan]

What about Specialist Class.
1. Massive ability to sneak, able to get up close and personal with enemies.
2. Cannot handle any ranged weapons, except for the Shotguns and Short ranged pistols.
3. Masters of Melee/HtH, large crit chance, if behind enemy when attacking, causes an isntant backstab/Neckbreaker (Warning, contains traces of instakill(100% chance that is).
4. Natural choice for getting rid of enemy snipers, however, they cannot use their sneak for more than 45 seconds at a time, and then need a 10 seconds cooldown, after sneak has dissipated.
5. Only useful when you can get up close and personal with your enemy, the assasin would have a deathwish if they'd want to fight a biggunner with an LSW.
6. Able to run while in sneak mode.
7. Highly proficient with placing mines and demo packs, able to remake a part of the battlefield into a carpet of death and destruction.
8. Unable to sneak effectively in a bluesuit.
fuck

[avv]

I will not change current SPECIAL and PERK system, i will try to make changes in weapons area, and give them more abilities.

Sadly our special and people's choices in that system hugely decide how effective their character will become. If you don't absolutely choose the right perks, right skills and right stats you will be weaker. At least skill caps must be reduced because if you invest 300 in small guns to become good sniper, you don't get any spare points for profesions and are strongly encouraged to create yourself a support alt. Character build musn't decide too much how powerful you are by default, but what you will become.

1) Create character - this will set the mantinels of your future PvP combat style
 2) Arm yourself - this will give you possibilites of PvP combat styles
 3) Use your personal skills (not character one) - your character and weapons use will depend mainly on you

Okay seems alright, but as stated pvp must be balanced for all. This also means characters with profesions. Then again profesion characters would become just less universal in pvp but still powerful because the situation and weapons are the ones that decide comabt's outcome.
Like this: gun crafters and armorers become combat mechanics, high cha builds become leaders, doctors become medics, outdoorsman guys become scouts, traps guys become demolition experts and thieves become backstabbers.

But I was just thinking that what weapons would those characters with profesions use. Could an armorcrafter use sniper? Or would he absolutely have to spend all skillpoints, perks and stats in sniping related ones to be a good sniper?

So we have to balance playstyles (combat class) first, weapons an other will be in second wave.

Then we got to start thinking what kind of impact should weapon skill%, stats and perks have on the character's performance. As you know for example PE1 dude has no role in firefight.

IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.

Couldn't we somehow mend lsw and minigun build because both are actually big guns with high fire rate? Same could be done with smg and assault rifle guys because they are both similar guns with just little differences. So lsw&minigun would become support, smg&AR would become grunt. In the end support would just choose most suitable gun for his incoming mission, as well as grunt. If support is going to attack he takes a little lighter big gun but in defense he uses the heavier.

Well mechanic, scout and leader are missing. Plus gordulan's rambo build. I had similar thing in mind: a melee-oriented dude who takes out snipers but i'd take out the explosives ability because that's demo expert's job. Then we could have ahbobsaget build with psycho, heavy armor and supersledge. Takes out little groups in small rooms or single enemies with good ambush.

[metzger777]

lol how about this, ur bored u wanna pvp u got to a merc in ncr or wherever u tell im fed up with the world i wann shot soome prics, he give su high gun and armor and somestims (dependig on ur skills) FOR FREE the ur off shooting, drawback is u can shoot anything except for players (shoot some rats or crazies for loot is not accpetible, or maybe u can shoot them bt u get no exp and no loot, and u cant shoot inside towns) There, that s should solve this issue.

[Sius]

Ok so I've finally forced myself to write down something about those abilities. So here we go:

Abilities should be something extra, that grant bonuses to various actions for out avatar. They can either boost our aim, make reload with pistols cost less AP, or make us harder to kill etc. The point is that they should be only combat based (offense/defense/survivability...) and everyone should have exact the same amount of ability points to play around. The main difference between abilities and perks is that abilities form our character step by step and only in the specific way. Thanks to tree structure you will have to spend ability points in those weaker abilities first in order to reach for those more powerful ones (so you will be either very good in offense but your defense will suck or vice versa or something between it etc = you can't take only those powerful abilities). Also abilities should be very specific in what they boost so there should be various ways how to spend our points in order to reach different bonuses for different types of weapons/armors/items or actions themselves. Perks act on general level when if you take More crit then its +5% crit chance for everything you fight with. Abilities should boost only specific equipment/actions (so reloading shotgun should not be the same as reloading assault rifle and abilities should affect only certain group or groups of equipment and only those powerful ones will work generally with everything just like perks do) and that should result in creation of endless possibilities how to roll your character. So with proper choice of abilities you could roll tank like shotgunner, long range combat hitman, indestructible mele bar fighter etc...

- abilities are addition to current special/skill/perks system
- they stand alone but they could be linked to special/skills because of balancing
(So in order to unlock certain ability one will have to meet the requirements that could be like "110% SG, at least 4 ST...". But such restrictions should be rather rare and only for top abilities.)
- abilities can be divided into two types. Active and passive.
Passive: once player choose passive ability it takes effect immediately and its permanent or its event triggered. (Example: "Born to command = You gain +1 AC per player in you group, that is in same location as you are. In addition those who follow you gain one time bonus of +5% accuracy if they are in your FoV.")
Active: player have to trigger active ability in order to gain bonus from it. They have short duration or they are one time actions and they have cooldown that defines how often we can use them,  (Example: "Spray'n'pray = You burst fire in your opponents direction. You have higher chance to ignore his armor but your aim gets worse and only few bullets hit the target.")



There are numerous ways how to introduce them ingame. Either you gain ability points each level and you can spend them right after you level up or introduce something like trainers into the game. Each time you level up you will still gain ability point but you won't be able to spend it until you get trained. There could be different types of trainers for different types of abilities so in order to learn how to defend yourself better you will have to learn from "defense trainer" that could be presented ingame by an old raider that changed sides and now lives normal life or something like that (eg someone skilled who is capable of training you). Anyway problem is the lack of choice. With current level cap there are 7/5 perks and 140/600 skillpoints to play around. If we would get ability points each lvl then thats 20 ability points to spend. Thats way too low. So in order to make our char development rather "step by step" than "leap by leap" I suggest another char related changes.

Raise lvl cap 4 times but reduce perk power and skillpoints gained per lvl equally to that. So with 4x21=84 lvl cap average char would have 28 perks to choose from (and instead +5% crit chance, they should add +1/2% and have more ranks to choose from) and instead of 15 skillpoints per lvl (with IN 5) we would get 15/4=4. Level speed should not be changed until game offers more activities how to level up (quests, repeatable quests, dungeons, faction missions, alternative source of exp etc...). With such lvl cap we could finally get decent number of ability points to play with. Lets say that we start gaining ability points from 5th lvl. That leaves us with 78 points to spend on various abilities that will form our character.

So with 84 lvl cap we would get 28/21 perks (with reduced effects but more ranks or maybe just more various perks to choose from), 140/600 skillpoints and 78 ability points to form our character. And that could pretty much mean you will never ever encounter someone with the same build as you are. Sure there will be always something more popular than the rest but compared to current clone like character development it leaves way more freedom.

Anyway main reason why I'm talking about something like abilities here is that we need something that provides us with tactical choices in combat and make characters differ from each other. Perks seems like good choice for that, but their mechanics (available only once in 3/4 levels) won't allow anything more complex. If we could choose from way more perks and they would be somehow limited so you won't be able to choose only those good ones, then we could make such changes through them. But I don't think it suits Fallout to mess around with perks (just like Fallout 3 did). Instead I came up with this as something additional that stands away from bounding mechanics and can do whatever we want it to do. So its completely up to us how to make fights more tactical and how to create more different builds (other than just big gunner or eg/sg sniper) and I believe that current char development just don't have proper tools how to reach that.

[avv]

You know sius perks, skills and profesions already have potential to make our characters specialized and stand out from each other. Right now it's just too encouraging to spend all skillpoints in combat skills and not to take any profesions for combat chars. If all skills provided use in pvp, players would be encouraged to use them aswell. In addition we lack interesting perks that really make our characters stand out from each other. Additional damage, crit chance and resistance is not interesting, it's just something you have to take if you want to do good.

I agree that level cap could be raised, or we could just give more perk slots. 7 perks is very little, it is enough to make you a powerful fighter but there's no room for any utility.

[Sius]

Yeah it certainly is a way to go. Making (every?) skill usable in combat would definitely bring some more variety but the main problem is the lack of choices during character development. Thats why I've wrote all that abilities stuff. When you compare FOnline and other MMOs then there is one main difference. Classes.
They provide ultimate way how to satisfy any player that comes along. One like some fist fights then he will most likely roll Monk. Another guy enjoys burning people from safe distance well then he will roll Pyro mage etc...

In FOnline you can choose your "class" during gameplay but here is the problem. We have only 7/5 choices to do so. In other MMOs you are defined not only by your class but also by your (in most cases) talents and equipment and all that can create countless variations from just one class. F.e. when I played WoW I rolled a priest. With 3 tags in talent tree I could roll discipline/holy/shadow priest but thats not it. Even when I've chosen to be shadow priest there were at least 3 main ways how to play just in PvP. One was mana burner/dispeler, another was survival based, next was pure dmg dealer etc. And I was able to support each build with different type of equipment to suit my situation.
I'm not trying to make FOnline another wow copy, but I lack character development in it since I don't consider 7/5 choices as a development.

[Rynn]

IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER IDEA or YOU THINK THAT THERE CAN EXIST ANOTHER KIND OF COMBAT CLASS, type it here. I think that this is good way how to start. Create idea of combat class and we can put it in the existing one or reduce another.

 Then we can modify the weapons or skills needs to each playstyle.

What about mercenaries ?
Instead of gun, it could be fun to use mercenaries.

All the "class" that you describe are, IMO, not support class.

What about some "leader" character (maybe know as taxi for now... depend of the point of view ^^) who can help fighter during battle. For exemple:

• Ability to share FOV: a character, with some requirment (charisma, perks, maybe speech skill... don't know... and it's not realy important for now), can share his and his teammate FOV with all his group.
• Ability to "control" NPC: same character with same requirment could for exemple say to all the civilian NPC in his FOV to stay home (not realy usefull... exept if the penality for killing a civilian is very huge... but fun anymore ^^)

About mercs control: depending of some requirement (perks? or speech like unarmed: if you have 100% you can use the first hability, 150% the second...) you have new option when you talk to your merks:

• Bodyguard: You can promote your merk as your personal bodyguard, and next time someone is shooting on you... your body guard take the damage... not you (of course it NEED balancing... maybe your mercs should get instant kill nevermind the damage he take... but it's not the main subject here).
• ...

This is just a little exemple...

IMO, the biggest part of the game is about fighting, so every character should be usefull in battle. I'm sure that medic "class", sneak character and other no-fighter character (Crafter too) can have some support abilities during battle.

[Lordus]

My concrete idea about old and new PvP classes.

Motto: lets do at least one little step

 Current existing (usable) PvP classes:

 1) BIG GUNNER BURSTER

 BG char with cca 200+ HP (2x lifegiver), 10-12 AP (depends on perks)... you know it very well, NO CHANGES from current state

 2) SNIPER SG/EW , NO CHANGES from current state

 Also, i dont need to explain it, everybody knows.

 New PvP classes:

 3) Assault riffle class .. everything will stay like now, but AR weapons (AR, XL, ...) should have one new perk: per one burst, -2 AP for target

 This will make AR players supportive kind of pvp class. This will slow enemy 10-12-14 AP biggunners, but one AR class could not kill them (because AR class needs reload too, and their damage is funny in comparsion with BG). But it will bring new kind of tactic situation, when one or 2 SG can neutralize enemy player and another teamate should kill him. Targed could only retreat then (but he will SURVIVE!!!).

 4) P90 class .. make bigger magazine for this weapon, raise it to 50 bullets (like real world P90). Additional perk: one bullet hit target = +1 det. to target armor... 50 hits (all magazine = + 50 det.), Realize that distance of this gun is shorter than miniguns, so this is not as big threat as it looks.
 Also, think if P90 in hand will add ability to refresh AP even in movement or during shooting. (if current game system could not implement this change, do not implement this one minor one change)

 This current changes are not so radical, current existing builds will stay, they will have all their current ability, new builds will not beat old ones in ANY current ability (firepower, distance, ...). New builds will be powerfull only in cooperation with other players, one new build will be ALWAYS weaker than current builds. This changes could be implemented very fast, because they use existing game mechanism (AP lost, det. of armor,..). So i think this changes should be great test of Developers interest of PvP balancing, I hope that any of current PvP player will protest againts this minor changes and last but not least, THIS WILL ADD SOME NEW TACTIC ELEMENT into the PvP game. Consider it like TEST, if in current unbalanced system we could add new PvP class without nerfing another weapons and builds..

 P.S.: If new classes will be too weak, we can experimentaly raise their ability later..

 So, what do you think?

[Drakonis]

My concrete idea about old and new PvP classes.

 Current existing (usable) PvP classes:

 1) BIG GUNNER BURSTER

 BG char with cca 200+ HP (2x lifegiver), 10-12 AP (depends on perks)... you know it very well, NO CHANGES from current state

 2) SNIPER SG/EW , NO CHANGES from current state

 Also, i dont need to explain it, everybody knows.

 New PvP classes:

 3) Assault riffle class .. everything will stay like now, but AR weapons (AR, XL, ...) should have one new perk: per one burst, -2 AP for target

 This will make AR players supportive kind of pvp class. This will slow enemy 10-12-14 AP biggunners, but one AR class could not kill them (because AR class needs reload too, and their damage is funny in comparsion with BG). But it will bring new kind of tactic situation, when one or 2 SG can neutralize enemy player and another teamate should kill him. Targed could only retreat then (but he will SURVIVE!!!).

 4) P90 class .. make bigger magazine for this weapon, raise it to 50 bullets (like real world P90). Additional perk: one bullet hit target = +1 det. to target armor... 50 hits (all magazine = + 50 det.), Realize that distance of this gun is shorter than miniguns, so this is not as big threat as it looks.
 Also, think if P90 in hand will add ability to refresh AP even in movement or during shooting. (if current game system could not implement this change, do not implement this one minor one change)

 This current changes are not so radical, current existing builds will stay, they will have all their current ability, new builds will not beat old ones in ANY current ability (firepower, distance, ...). New builds will be powerfull only in cooperation with other players, one new build will be ALWAYS weaker than current builds. This changes could be implemented very fast, because they use existing game mechanism (AP lost, det. of armor,..). So i think this changes should be great test of Developers interest of PvP balancing, I hope that any of current PvP player will protest againts this minor changes and last but not least, THIS WILL ADD SOME NEW TACTIC ELEMENT into the PvP game.

 P.S.: If new classes will be too weak, we can experimentaly raise their ability later..

 So, what do you think?

You didnt really suggest anything besides assault rifle getting a buff and p90c detoriate armor... However p90c burster class is ALLREADY in game and its pretty good too. You stated the "NO CHANGE" in current bg builds and sniper builds. you got me concerned by that, since 2238 pvp will not be balanced without some drastic changes to current powerbuilds. I even think that it's needed to rebuild character creation completly to make it enjoyable, semi-balanced and playable.

I have a sniper, energy sniper and 2 bugguners now. Bigguner with hyperfast deadly long range bursts ON PSYCHO i am a super fast, hard to knockdown/knockback shitload of HP TANK with the biggest damage output to get. As a secondary weapon i use plasma granade bursts only in case my opponent used a psycho too. Snipers will never be that deadly as BG if nothing changes. Snipers raly on armor bypassing crits and knockdowns. and we all know it's not that easy to score an armor bypass/knockdown shot. If you don't get lucky enough to both Crit and then Knockdown with that crit= you are pretty much dead from BG bursts even if you wear a BA. Using psycho on sniper? i would NOT recommend it so snipers are prone to bullets. Oh one more thing: Energy snipers: Good for pve since pve monsters usually dont have much plasma/laser resistance. In pvp you will have worse damage output if your shot didnt bypass armor, because energy weapons reisstances are taken from original fallout and they were there to provide protection from late game critters with plasmas and lasers and shit.

[avv]

What about some "leader" character (maybe know as taxi for now... depend of the point of view ^^) who can help fighter during battle. For exemple:

• Ability to share FOV: a character, with some requirment (charisma, perks, maybe speech skill... don't know... and it's not realy important for now), can share his and his teammate FOV with all his group.

Something like this would rock and it would definitely be useful. Leader would be the typical role in pvp for charisma builds.

IMO, the biggest part of the game is about fighting, so every character should be usefull in battle. I'm sure that medic "class", sneak character and other no-fighter character (Crafter too) can have some support abilities during battle.

That's right, fighting is the most important part because in it players actually compete against each other. However you must realize that every character must be allowed to fight.
Nobody wants to play a pacifist medic who just heals people in battlefield. He can heal, but he should be able to pull the trigger aswell. Healing is just his special ability, fighting is everybody's default ability. I mean think of it this way: surviving in wasteland demands being able to kill or be killed. If a character cannot fight, he possibly cannot exist in the wasteland because he always dies when meeting hostilities.[/list]

So, what do you think?

Well even then the combats would be over way too fast, you can't have much strategy if you die in few shots. You said it yourself that little steps won't help in this matter and it's true. Until we get the right picture, the pvp system could be slowly rolled towards that goal. So far we only have discussed the main principles and are still wondering how to balance the pvp.

[Lordus]

Well even then the combats would be over way too fast, you can't have much strategy if you die in few shots. You said it yourself that little steps won't help in this matter and it's true. Until we get the right picture, the pvp system could be slowly rolled towards that goal. So far we only have discussed the main principles and are still wondering how to balance the pvp.

 But i doubt now, if devs will implement such a radical changes, if it affects BGuns.. So i suggest this, very minor gun update, and we can see, if this will add another class or not. It is not question of months (like this total conversion is), but question of a day. And i think that this could be new tactit element in the game and we can test, in real fight, if this kind of chages has some effect in PvP.

[avv]

But i doubt now, if devs will implement such a radical changes, if it affects BGuns.. So i suggest this, very minor gun update, and we can see, if this will add another class or not. It is not question of months (like this total conversion is), but question of a day. And i think that this could be new tactit element in the game and we can test, in real fight, if this kind of chages has some effect in PvP.

Well sure it would be worth testing if devs bothered to do it, many things are worth testing. I wouldn't personally test it because pvp right now demands so much resources.

[Lordus]

Well sure it would be worth testing if devs bothered to do it, many things are worth testing. I wouldn't personally test it because pvp right now demands so much resources.

 all existing snipers will only take assult riffle or xl or fn fal and they can test it immediately... ïn big gangs, these kind of weapons are unused so they have dozens of this weapons.

 And developers will not test this, only PvP players. Developrs does not PvP as i know. They are testing new graphics, server code,... so they can directly view the results, but in PvP, we, PvP players will be the judges os this.

 I have to repeat, this is not radical change. No bigguner should be scared, he will rule his area like before. Only with combination with another players this could be a useful tactic..

[avv]

And developers will not test this, only PvP players. Developrs does not PvP as i know. They are testing new graphics, server code,... so they can directly view the results, but in PvP, we, PvP players will be the judges os this.

Well so far pvp players testing and reporting anything has been bad, they just use what's best for them and be silent. Only few pvp players actually actively send their ideas and discuss things here.

What should be done is a closed city-arena separate from whole wasteland. There players could wage eternal war against each other with infinite ammo and equipment. There resources wouldn't matter and we could only test how things act in pvp. This way testing would be concentrated on one thing only and we'd get much more material to measure than by playing the game in ordinary way.