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I agree, absolutely

12 (34.3%)

I agree, but i would change something

8 (22.9%)

I disagree, because of some ideas

6 (17.1%)

I disagree, absolutely

4 (11.4%)

I abstain

5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: May 08, 2010, 07:57:26 pm

[Sephiroth-sama]

My basic idea is: You don't like FOnline, you just quit.

You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.

There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.

[Lordus]

My basic idea is: You don't like FOnline, you just quit.

You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.

There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.

 Well, i was here from start of this beta. I fight in every era, so i think that it is lie if you tell me that i dont like Fonline. But you forget one thing. This is BETA testing, not final game. So i have right, or maybe duty, to help developers.

 You are right, Fallout (1,2) was single player game. But this is multiplayer game modification. So i think, and many others too, that it deserves multiplayer PvP system. As Solar said, nobody who is involved in this project, does know, if developers will listen us, after we will finish this. I do only what do others in suggestion forum. I am making new suggestion, complex, but unlike others, i want to create something by cooperation with other players, players who cares. Dont take from me right to create suggestion, you despot ;-)

[avv]

You're expecting this game to be a MMO... Guess what, it won't. It is barely a multiplayer, because you have more than one player then it can't be considered single player, but not MMO also. It lacks some of the essence of MMO, Fallout 2 was made to be a great SINGLE player game, you can't just turn it multiplayer and expect it would be good.

There are things who can't be balanced without creating another game from scratch, which won't happen. Just go and find a game that suits you, there are thousands on the internet. Just leave and be happy. Complaining won't help, not because the devs don't want the game to be good, nor the players, just because it CAN'T be done. Live with it.

What are you talking about? New features rise and fall all the time. We've tested parley, tracking, differend Fovs and differend player flagging. New features like town reputation and town control are brand new, ideas for them were partially given by playerbase. Our economy is starting to look good gather-craft wise. Only things that really would need some major changes are indeed combat and end game bussiness for higher levels.
What this game doesn't need are dismotivated and depressed people who are always there to tell that "it's no use it's not going to work anyway". Constructive criticism is always welcome but basic attitude of every beta tester should be optimistic, motivated and open-minded.

[vedaras]

the problem is that adding your suggestions would require a huge amount of work for devs, a huge! And do we know at all that people would like the new created system? What if it would suck much more harder then current system? Thats why i always say, lets think how we can improve what we have, and if you dont like that wait for SDK TLA files release :>

[Drakonis]

the problem is that adding your suggestions would require a huge amount of work for devs, a huge! And do we know at all that people would like the new created system? What if it would suck much more harder then current system? Thats why i always say, lets think how we can improve what we have, and if you dont like that wait for SDK TLA files release :>

im most certainly am waiting for SDK.

[Swinglinered]

the guy that throws 4 plasma grenades a round in real time so you can never actually do anything does not seem very tactical to me, just a cheap way to get free gear.

I dont view that as tactical at all, more like your little brother spamming a fireball in a fighting game or something to win just because he knows if he had to come at you any other way youd wipe the floor with him.

It IS a tactic.

Perhaps your definition of tactical is manuever fighting, which is cool. I'd like to see more of that.

Ambushes are more realistic: would you,in RL, prefer to simply snipe someone/throw grenades by surprise, or would you want to have a "Chivalrous Engagement" with charges and retreats and so on?

I get the impression that the ideal is some sort of Wild West shootout, with people ducking behind barrels, diving through windows, etc. I would love that, and sometimes it comes out that way, if everyone is low-medium level with low-medium equipment.
Guys with autotargeted laser/plasma rifles bring it to the level of the gunslinger standoff- whoever draws first wins, except the botting predetermines even that.

How about banning some botters?
That would be a good way to start reforming PvP.

No, I don't have Fraps currently installed, so I have no evidence to present.
Maybe a Fraps campaign is in order.

[Lordus]

 I will stop the vote right now. I think that people had enough time to vote (weekend). I carefuly watched the voting, there were no sudden changes of votes,.. so it think we cant expect something new in voting in near future.

  Result is:

I agree, absolutely    12 (34.3%)
I agree, but i would change something    8 (22.9%)
I disagree, because of some ideas    6 (17.1%)
I disagree, absolutely    4 (11.4%)
I abstain    5 (14.3%)

Total Voters: 35

 20 votes for this proposal, 10 against, 5 abstains.. the ratio is 2:1 for proposal = 66,6 percent of voting people are supporting proposal.

 Most of disagree but contstructive reactions were about turn based. So i repeat, we will not intentionaly destroy the TB combat in our future suggestions.

 Our process will now enter second stage. I think this stage will be far longer than previous stage. Until i will create special thread, i want to discuss here about the form of stage two. If we look to the PvP constitution, it is divided to some chapters, so one way how to start, is start discuss about every chapters.. But, they are connected, so maybe it will be impossible. But i see major chapters there: balance and fight style  (the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style). So this could be a good topics to start. So maybe players could post their view over this topics, every player in one (big) respond to thread i will create.

 If you have any idea, go on.

[Sius]

I just want to add that you were discussing the combat length as one of the subjects. There were some ideas and so on but the way I see it is that combat should be way more longer in matter of what we can do in fight but it should not be time based like shortest fight will always take you 5 seconds while longest will be 1 min or something like that.
Its logical when 2 attack 1 then loner will quickly meet his maker. My point is that I think current FOnline could definitely use some of "abilities" that were discussed already at suggestion section (my signature, about 3-4 th page + another hth topic elsewhere). I believe that is the good way how to form solid and balanced combat. Make people choose special abilities that will shape their characters in addition to current special, perk, skills system.

+ as I've already posted elsewhere too, I think that current crafting is what ruining the game balance at the first place. When you have to dedicate your whole character to be successful crafter, then it works like magical barrier between PvPers and crafters/average guys and that causes shitload of balance troubles and practically divide playerbase in two. Imho game should be based on combat and no matter what path you take, your char should be always capable of decent PvP activity no matter what build you pick. So in order to reach that, professions should come as something extra to ANY character no matter if you are PB or 24/7 miner.

Ideal FOnline in my head? Thisone:
Take pro PvPer and switch his char with "average" guy who plays from time to time and just for fun (both max lvl).
As a result you should get player that is limited by his character build, skills and abilities but with proper equipment his PvP experience will still make him deadly opponent that can take down other less experienced players even if they are pure PvP builds.

[avv]

Our process will now enter second stage. I think this stage will be far longer than previous stage. Until i will create special thread, i want to discuss here about the form of stage two. If we look to the PvP constitution, it is divided to some chapters, so one way how to start, is start discuss about every chapters.. But, they are connected, so maybe it will be impossible. But i see major chapters there: balance and fight style  (the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style). So this could be a good topics to start. So maybe players could post their view over this topics, every player in one (big) respond to thread i will create

Yeah this is good chapter to begin with.

As Sius said we probably going to have to revisit our perks, stats and skills influences on player character. Because right now our perks and skills decide exactly how accurate, damaging and resilient you character is.
Following changes could take place:

1. Skill maximum reduced to 180-200
2. Skills and stats mainly unlock you perks, crafting options and profesions, rather than strongly change your performance.
3. Perks provide you abilities, passive or active. But not direct damage buffs, not direct hp and DT buffs. Indirect damage, ac and such buffs are okay.
4. Players should get a wider variety of perks to choose and more perk slots. They should also be forced to take not only pvp or utility perks, but both.
5. Minimum and maximum hitpoints are balanced. Same with carryweight and action points.

Reasoning:
1. anything over 200 in one skill is unnecessarily big. Nobody wants to play a character that can do only one thing well, it strongly encourages alts.

2. High skill% no longer means that you always succeed. It will depend on your enviroment and opponent's reactions. Having only some high number decide your success is very bad game mechanic. As was seen by the outrage caused by sneak, steal every now and then and long ago parley. Parley was very good example of what will happen if we let our skills determine the outcome of out conflicts.

3. The reason why perks shouldn't just give +2 dmg per bullet is because the game strongly encourages taking them if a player wishes to participate in pvp. +25 to carryweight won't save you from bullets the same way as toughness. The trade off isn't fair when it comes to pvp and utility perks. The new perks could provide new abilities that were case sensitive and useful only if the player knew how to utilize them. For example you could get additional ac when behind cover, or faster reload when you havent moved for a while or additional damage when shooting stationary enemy. This kind of abilities encourage players to choose a style how to play. Rather than just enjoy the benefits of passive damage enhancers.

4. We need more perks to create differend characters. We also need to force players to choose combat perks and utility perks, not just single type. So I suggest that Player could get around 20 perks overall. 10 pvp related perks which are unlocked by his skills and stats, and 10 utility perks. Utility perks would be like strong back, pathfinder and mr fixit.

5. Nobody wants to pvp with weak character. Like sius said, everyone must have the potential to pvp in his character even if he doesn't want to. But also everyone has the potential to do other than pvp related things even if he doesn't want to. Players musn't be allowed to cripple their character too much from one area and relocate that potential to another. Just like real humans can't just make themselves deaf, mute and retarded but get super duper eyesight. Everyone must have the basic necessities for simple tasks. Like talking to npcs.

[Sephis]

@avv

The things you are talking about are not fallout. When you make your character you have a role in mind (you should) People perform the roles they pursue actively well. And the SPECIAL system being marginalized ends up being a horrible thing. When perks are more stat dependent you only remind me of Beth's fallout 3 *shudder*  

  And if you choose to make someone with 1 charisma I think that's fine because some people are ugly as hell and are in no way charming.
It's just how the SPECIAL system effects how the game plays.

As far as more perks and more options. It would be really hard to balance so many added perks. and then there would be nerfs and nerd rages as a powerful unthought of combination occurred and they needed a fix. Then other things would need to be rebalanced. Those kinds of changes may ruin the game rather then improve it.

[avv]

The things you are talking about are not fallout. When you make your character you have a role in mind (you should) People perform the roles they pursue actively well. And the SPECIAL system being marginalized ends up being a horrible thing. When perks are more stat dependent you only remind me of Beth's fallout 3 *shudder*

Fonline is only based on fallout by its background story. One of our strongest principles in this thread is that because fallouts were singleplayer games their rules cannot work properly in an mmo. Stating that something here is against fallout just won't do because we cannot let a memory if nostalgia slow down advancement. Profesions, real time and many other things weren't fallout either.

And if you choose to make someone with 1 charisma I think that's fine because some people are ugly as hell and are in no way charming.
It's just how the SPECIAL system effects how the game plays.

Well because you're such a fallout fan you should know that even with cha1 player could talk to some npcs in fallout games. So why are you suddenly against this?
All the same, cha1 or any SPECIAL 1 shouldn't cripple the character too much so that he can move this potential to some other area. This creates powerful powerbuilds that do one thing too well and this encourages alts. It's undeniable fact and cannot be protected by just telling that's the way things are.

As far as more perks and more options. It would be really hard to balance so many added perks. and then there would be nerfs and nerd rages as a powerful unthought of combination occurred and they needed a fix. Then other things would need to be rebalanced. Those kinds of changes may ruin the game rather then improve it.

That's called playtesting. We've had 2 powerful unthought combinations roaming around forever and nobody has bothered to fix them. This thread exists to solve that issue.

[Sius]

I think that more perks will solve nothing. Even if you multiply level cap by 4 => 4x21=84 and lower perk/skillpoint equally to that (with IN 5 it will be 15/4 skillpoints per lvl). And thats still only 28 or 21 choices how to form your char and thats ridiculously low number (sure better than 7/5 but still nothing good.

[Sephis]

Yes I understand MMOs work differently. and I agree some things need a change. I believe the 1 charisma point penalty is because we don't have the numerous charisma int and speach checks in Fallout 1 and 2. So it decreased the value of charisma drastically because INT is still used for skill points. I don't think players should be allowed to cripple themselves either. But other changes need to be made to justify not crippling yourself. And those other changes (some of which are being suggested in this very thread) Don't seem a priority for the devs.

I think alot of items need to be changed personally, because certain guns are the best option for situations 90% of the time every time.

[avv]

I think that more perks will solve nothing. Even if you multiply level cap by 4 => 4x21=84 and lower perk/skillpoint equally to that (with IN 5 it will be 15/4 skillpoints per lvl). And thats still only 28 or 21 choices how to form your char and thats ridiculously low number (sure better than 7/5 but still nothing good.

I was just thinking that more perks will provide more choices of combat styles like support gunner, sniper, grunt, throat slicer or gunslinger. The guns themselves provide wide options but characters should be at least somehow be differend and specialize in certain tasks.
Well what do you propose? You had those special ability suggestions. Just feel free to re-write or link them here. Preferrably re-write so that they are loyal to the current chapter.

[Sius]

I'll get onto it but it will take some time so in best case it will be tomorrow.

Anyway I have another suggestion concerning weapons. Currently its a mess. 95% of weapons are useless in endgame combat or in combat at all. Most of them does not have proper range or dmg to be useful. But what if we create weapon categories and support them with perks? I mean something like this:

Few weapon categories
- pistols
- shotguns
- smgs
- combat rifles
- sniper rifles
- energy rifles
- rocket launchers
- miniguns

Each category should have 3+ weapons. Shotguns could be used as an example =>
Shotgun -> Sawed-Off Shotgun  ->  Combat Shotgun  -> H&K CAWS  -> Pancor Jackhammer

First two are obviously low lvl weapons mainly designed for self defense and leveling. They should be easy to get and easy to feed type of weapons. Middle weapons (in this case combat shotgun) is universal so it can be used for offense/defense in both PvE and PvP. But from now on we enter "endgame" equipment zone and we have H&K and Jackhammer here. Both should be designed to be expensive yet very effective weapons. But reality is very distant from this and you can say that any shotgun is kinda useless no matter what you use it for (mainly because of its low range).
Anyway my point is to make people not only choose their weapon category by skills but also divide weapons into classes. Maybe add perks that specify only at certain class (longer range for shotguns, less aps for reload, more accurate etc...) and allow players to choose 1-2 or even 3 weapon classes they want to specialize at and become masters at it. Maybe not through perks but through something like weapon professions. You put your skillpoints into SGs and you would like to roll pistols and sniper rifles. Each weapon class has 3 levels (each lvl will grant you minor bonus) and you have 4 point to spent in weapon professions. So your build could look like this:
Sniper lvl 1 - adds +3 hexes to your weapon range
Sniper lvl 2 - more accurate aiming
Sniper lvl 3 - faster aiming (-1 ap to execute aimed shots)
Pistols lvl 1 - every action with pistols except shooting costs less ap (= switching to pistol, reaload, actions in inventory and stuff like this costs less ap)



This is kinda related to my original "abilities" suggestion so I'm just brainstorming here. Anyway I will try to rewrite that ability stuff and we will see what will come out of that.