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I agree, absolutely

12 (34.3%)

I agree, but i would change something

8 (22.9%)

I disagree, because of some ideas

6 (17.1%)

I disagree, absolutely

4 (11.4%)

I abstain

5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: May 08, 2010, 07:57:26 pm

[Lordus]

 Hello players, fighters.
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We are at stage n.2 http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4313.0
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 please, read first the first post in the link http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4205.msg37981#msg37981

Result is:

I agree, absolutely    12 (34.3%)
I agree, but i would change something    8 (22.9%)
I disagree, because of some ideas    6 (17.1%)
I disagree, absolutely    4 (11.4%)
I abstain    5 (14.3%)

Total Voters: 35

 20 votes for this proposal, 10 against, 5 abstains.. the ratio is 2:1 for proposal = 66,6 percent of voting people are supporting proposal.
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"PvP constitution proposal n.1"

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PvP  constitution:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.

 2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.

 3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.

 4) The combat should be more tactical.

 5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.

 6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.

 Requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
 
  a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons

  b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)

  c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages

 7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
  a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).

  b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.

 8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.

 a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.

 b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)

 9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
   I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.

 10) We should balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together, or at least, we should find the role for melee and unarmed.

 11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
 
 Turnbased is part of the game, we would not disable it, but it is not priority for us. So we will focus our attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect in turnbased PvP, we dont care, but we dont want to intentionaly destroy the TB. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.

[Drakonis]

100% agree

[Kilgore]

Devs should focus on balancing PvP instead of making it new from a scratch (this is what you've just proposed).

I mean, Lordus, I know that you can be bored with the current PvP, but seriously... what the fuck.

[Quentin Lang]

First off, i support your efforts and your time in making all this.

I voted i agree, but i would change some things. I mean, yes, change is needed, but mostly in balance terms, weapon usage and combat lenght. All other changes are too drastical, too much, quite much making new PvP from a scratch, even if you stated that we shouldnt make new, but balance the existing one.

[Sius]

You know balance existing one can be pretty much equivalent to creating completely new from scratch.

[Attero]

i would say "You cant fit elephant into bottle"

Please realise the limit of engine and limit of devs time. Look how Somethign simple as FoV/LoS and problems it caused ....
i personaly have no idea how much more compute presure the game take...

But as first and possibly easiest way to balance things would be to work on movement
i would add another movement speed - sprint or smth like that and then work things around this way :
1- Make the character run up to target whe using melee attack (possibly auto-run-follow would work when you are close to enemy - 10 hex?)
2- Sprint - usable only in light armor and carry not mroe then 30%
3- normal run - usable in any armor and ligth weapon armed
4- walk - You are forced to walk when having big gun armed (yea bg nerf but then BG could recive some buff to make them the weapons they should be

bla bla bla blabing around - but that way i would go - is to increase tactical level of the game by adding stuff like :
run modifiers: obstacle mods , balistic effects on nades , more special effects like stuns (short duration like 1s) suppression fire (forced to walk) , other penalties , increase HP overally (like 5Hp per lv + end/2 , lifegiver isntantly gives 40 hp , only one rank.)

we can go futher and add more cool stuff like something like smoke grenades , mpm ones ( some - creates area within it you cant do aim on body parts (and some hit penalty maybe too ). MPM disables energy eapons for short time ( for example forces the victim to reload - depand on strenght can need diminishing), napalm / flamethower causes big gun victim to be unable ot use weapon for a while (overheat) ....blablabla  we can create tons of pages with ideas yet none of us can even estimate time it would take to add one...

[avv]

i would say "You cant fit elephant into bottle"

Please realise the limit of engine and limit of devs time. Look how Somethign simple as FoV/LoS and problems it caused ....
i personaly have no idea how much more compute presure the game take...

But as first and possibly easiest way to balance things would be to work on movement
i would add another movement speed - sprint or smth like that and then work things around this way :
1- Make the character run up to target whe using melee attack (possibly auto-run-follow would work when you are close to enemy - 10 hex?)
2- Sprint - usable only in light armor and carry not mroe then 30%
3- normal run - usable in any armor and ligth weapon armed
4- walk - You are forced to walk when having big gun armed (yea bg nerf but then BG could recive some buff to make them the weapons they should be

bla bla bla blabing around - but that way i would go - is to increase tactical level of the game by adding stuff like :
run modifiers: obstacle mods , balistic effects on nades , more special effects like stuns (short duration like 1s) suppression fire (forced to walk) , other penalties , increase HP overally (like 5Hp per lv + end/2 , lifegiver isntantly gives 40 hp , only one rank.)

we can go futher and add more cool stuff like something like smoke grenades , mpm ones ( some - creates area within it you cant do aim on body parts (and some hit penalty maybe too ). MPM disables energy eapons for short time ( for example forces the victim to reload - depand on strenght can need diminishing), napalm / flamethower causes big gun victim to be unable ot use weapon for a while (overheat) ....blablabla  we can create tons of pages with ideas yet none of us can even estimate time it would take to add one...

That's exactly what we're soon about to discuss here. Now we just outlining the basic principles.

[virus341]

Total remaking the whole system...hmm, it's ok I guess, but the time you will need even to "invent it" will be enough to finish SDK, I think. Not that I'm telling you stfu and start making your own server, but as Attero pointed: remaking the base PvP system gonna be damn hard and time consuming, and if you are not the one codding it...guess you even don't know what can and what can't be implemented.
But good luck by the way.

[PuzzledGorilla]

I agree with everything except for you abandoning turn based combat.  I don't like real time combat.  It wasn't in the original games and saying you don't care if it breaks is abandoning the people who like it.  I'll probably stop playing if you start ignoring TB combat.  If I wanted that kind of action I'd play Xbox360.  I play this game because I like Fallout and I've always thought real time combat was a bastardization of the original combat system.  Just my 2 cents.  I may be in the minority.

[Lordus]

I agree with everything except for you abandoning turn based combat.  I don't like real time combat.  It wasn't in the original games and saying you don't care if it breaks is abandoning the people who like it.  I'll probably stop playing if you start ignoring TB combat.  If I wanted that kind of action I'd play Xbox360.  I play this game because I like Fallout and I've always thought real time combat was a bastardization of the original combat system.  Just my 2 cents.  I may be in the minority.

 I can write here example:

 Look at current TB combats. They are too long now. Your have 30 sec to make your decision, and even when are you quicker, the engine is too slow, so it takes long time too.

 So if we want longer real time fights, the turn based combat will be longer too. But we cant balance this.

 If the priority will be TB, we will need to make quicke fights, than real time will be one shot one kill only...

 Because of this, priority is real time. Most PvP players likes only real time, thats fact.




 The vote is here, because we, change makers, want to feedback from other players. There were plenty of ideas, almost zero output. If we know, that players have same vision like we have, we can continue in this process. If our vision will be different, we can change something. By players, for players.

 The major purpose, why we are creating this, is because we (at least i) think, that developers does not have much combat experience (in PvP). I hope the process result will help them.

[Argammon]

About realtime/ turnbased:

Have you guys ever played Jagged Alliance 2? It is a turnbased game. Compared to that games strategic dept Fallout Tactics seems like a poor made Arcade game. Turnbased allows for a lot more strategies than realtime. Just because turnbased is implemented rather poorly in Fallout does not mean it is bad in general.

I know TB is a problem in cities but in most places it is, IMO, far superior to realtime if a system like in Jagged Alliance was in place here. Please play the game (and it's newer mods) to understand what I mean.

Have you ever thought of simultaneous turnbased? Every 30 seconds a new turn begins for all players at once. End of "to long" story. It's a good compromise between RT and TB imo.

You could even implement sequence there if players with a very high sequence can act immediately whereas players with low sequ. can act after 10 seconds. Everyone else in between. Keep in mind the numbers are just an example.

[Surf]

Removed spam from the topic.
People, seriously it's probably the 1.0001203506th time I write this, but: These are just SUGGESTIONS! It's not that some things get implemented immediately just because one guy suggests something in this board. Also, for the people who are suggesting things, keep in mind this suggestion board is more a fundus of small(or not so small) ideas for the devs in ways to increaze the game, make the game better. If your suggestion won't get implemented, it doesn't mean they don't like you or they don't care about it, it's just that the suggestion didn't fit in their style they want the game.

And therefore posts like "Devs don't care about pvp" etc. are considered spam and will get removed. Also "create your own game" will get deleted.
People, just think twice before you post if your thoughts are really needed in that topic. Just behave yourself, post in a proper manner, is it that hard?

Now back to topic.

[avv]

Real time isn't purely real time because everyone is still restricted by action points not his reflexes and speed of micromanagement. Hopefully we will find a solution that's not too fast but not too slow either. Something that everyone can catch and keep up with.

[Lordus]

About realtime/ turnbased:

Have you guys ever played Jagged Alliance 2?

 I played but not for long time (my computer had not enough RAM for this kind of game (i had 4 MB and this required 8MB i think), and later, there were new games ). But JA was single player game. Fonline should to be multiplayer.

 Most PvP are in cities. There is no chance how to implement TB into the cites. Also, i remember every TB fights, neverendings trap zones.. But, i have to repeat. We dont want to intentionaly ruin TB. But balance will be made on real time fights. It is impossible, to make one common balanced system for realtime and TB.

 I.e.: One way, how to make SMGs more usable (against other weapons) is that in real time, if you have SMG in your active slot and you are shooting and you are moving, the action points will be refreshing during movement and fire (with minigun your AP will refresh after fire if you stand - like in current system). But there is no chance how to implement this into TB mode. So we will not balance this feature to TB mode. Understand?

 P.S.: This example is only theoretical. Everybody will have chance to make their own idea list, but compatible with this PvP constituion. PvP constitution is only creating limits, it determines the direction this suggesion process will aim.

[Aricvomit]

well honestly i dont think the words tactical and realtime belong in the same sentence in relation to pvp in this game, pretty much the way i see it the game of real time pvp boils down to who has the least amount of lag/rockets in your face.
I can think of about 4 perks that are completely worthless outside of TB, playing TB also minimizes lag issues for everyone and levels the field even though people love to whine because obviously they have so little time to waste playing Fonline, that and playing turn based actually gives people the chance to escape a would be sniper or big gunner Pk that would normally spell instant doom for anyone not equipped for such a situation.
Real time would have to be completely re-done in order to make more entertaining battles, the instant death from critical eyeshots or the guy that throws 4 plasma grenades a round in real time so you can never actually do anything does not seem very tactical to me, just a cheap way to get free gear.
I dont view that as tactical at all, more like your little brother spamming a fireball in a fighting game or something to win just because he knows if he had to come at you any other way youd wipe the floor with him.