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I agree, absolutely

12 (34.3%)

I agree, but i would change something

8 (22.9%)

I disagree, because of some ideas

6 (17.1%)

I disagree, absolutely

4 (11.4%)

I abstain

5 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: May 08, 2010, 07:57:26 pm

[avv]

Okay seems like you got something to say about guns sius. Hold your horses we haven't got there yet  

The chapter is balance, meaning that how should the game changed so that every char can participate in pvp.

EDIT: oh well looks like Lordus decided and went ahead.

[Lordus]

How to balance the game across all fireamrs skills?

 It is very difficult task. If we want to balance weapons. In http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4313.msg38973#msg38973 point 1) i descibed how is Fallout constucted. If you reach progress, you are able to use new, better weapon, there is no need to use your old weapon. It is naturaly, because the weapons was created for single player.



So we need to create differences among guns not depending on game progress. But there is one major problem. How to hold balancing under control? There are dozens of weapons. We need to create one thin line connecting all (most) of the weapons. And i found it.

 Its name is Mr. Bullet

 In real world, the bullet is making damage, not the gun itself. The damage is made by weight of the bullet and speed of the bullet. I.e.: 7.62x51mm NATO, bullet weight 9.50g, velocity 840 m/s, energy 3,352 J.

 The weapon inself only determines on how long distance you will shoot the bullet, how many times per minute, accuracy, manoeuvreability,.. Yes, it can little reduce or increase the speed of bullet, only little.

 So i suggest, lets set that bullet will be the major factor in calculating damage. Weapons will have other atrributes (fire rate, distance, clips, needed strenght,..) and only little possibility to modify the damage (to make nuances among guns, i.e.: 1,1 multiplier, 1,2, 1,3 max). So if we set enough level of ammo damage, we can balance all other weapons only by setting their own multiplier.

 So damage your gun will do is equal to bullet dmg * number of shooted bullets * gun multiplier. (Reducement of dmg will be another chapter).

 So, what will be the difference among guns, only damage?

 Damage and distance!!

 If we set the distance and damage on correct level, each weapon could have its own purpose. The problem i see, is to set distance of crossing lines correctly. This will determine the use of weapon (interior, streets, city squares, free planes,...). Than we can make minor changes in each weapon class (i.e. magazine, total distance, price, AP needed, dmg multiplier)
I.E.:

[avv]

Hmh I guess the balance counts weapon balance aswell. We can discuss the character issue later.

Good ideas Lordus, especially that bullets being the major dmg determining factor. Many bg and sg use the same bullets. When it comes to guns we can think of simple and fast methods to balance them but then the game will lack strategic options.

The weapon inself only determines on how long distance you will shoot the bullet, how many times per minute, accuracy, manoeuvreability,

This is good. For example big guns should be heavy and hard to haul into positions fast. It should take time to prepare them, instead of rushing around starting to ratata with 95% accuracy in 0,1 seconds when enemy is met. Same goes with grenades and aimed eyeshots. It should take time to prepare a good shot. This would move snipers to long distances where they got time to prepare their shots, instead of being able to deliver perfectly accurate killshots in mere milliseconds from any range. Shotguns, smgs, pistols and assault rifles should be the mainline weapons and usable for everybody. 
Basically guns need more perk slots and options. Currently we got one slot and very few choices.

Or maybe we could try to come up with easy balance that's good basis for advanced features. The bullets and distance being the basis for all damage sounds good to start with.

Here I put some more guns in your chart.


 Didn't pay as much attention as you did, but one thing that could be discussed is the big gun overpower at close range. Big guns should IMO be the medium-long range dominators in the open and defense but outmatced in tight areas by smgs, pistols and shotguns.

[Lordus]

 I think that SMG line should be very similar to big gun line, but with one big advantage. AP will refresh even in shooting or moving your char. This will be very good short range offensive, hit and run ability of this kind of weapons.

 Also, i think that there should exist one assault riffle AK47 with 7.62 ammo for small guns and LSW for big guns (7.62 ammo). These 2 guns should be very similar. LSW will have better firepower (just because of more bullets will be shooten in one burst), but will have less distance, AK will have more direct line than LSW. Also AK will be able to shoot single shot.

 I think single shot must be very usefull gun ability.

 Only sniper riffle class should be able to do eyeshot (sniper riffle, hunting riffle, laser riffle, XL?, gauss gun??). And pistols too (10mm, desert eagle, 14mm,...). Eyeshot should do criticals and raise the basic gun damage to bigger values.
 Only riffles (and sniper rffles and pistol too) should be able to head shots. Head shots will have (1/6, ...) propability to change itsself to eyeshot. At this moment, i dont exactly know, what head shot should do.. maybe knock like now, but limited.
  Hand shot ... similar like now.. bigger possibility to lose the gun or cripple hand.
  Foot shot... possibility of slowing enemy movement for short time.

 Possibility. Footshot>Handshot>Headshot>Eyeshot

 So you will have bigger chance to slow enemy, than to kill him instantly.

 If this kind of shot will be usefull in fight, biggunners, with no possibility of aim, could have their big firepower like now, but they will be in disadvantage because enemy could block their movement close to them, so BGunner enemy could not use their guns in their max effect range.

[avv]

I think that SMG line should be very similar to big gun line, but with one big advantage. AP will refresh even in shooting or moving your char. This will be very good short range offensive, hit and run ability of this kind of weapons.

Uhuh sounds plausible. Then we just have to fit shotguns there.
 

Also, i think that there should exist one assault riffle AK47 with 7.62 ammo for small guns and LSW for big guns (7.62 ammo). These 2 guns should be very similar. LSW will have better firepower (just because of more bullets will be shooten in one burst), but will have less distance, AK will have more direct line than LSW. Also AK will be able to shoot single shot.

Well we got fn fal and m60. Nobody just seems to use those. What bg should do is to hold areas. For example you set a machine gun to cover an area and you can make sure that nobody will pass over that place without getting constant flow of bullets coming at him. Machine guns should be able to shoot long and many targets at once.

This pic demonstrates what I mean.

Those dudes are standing within your shooting area, they are your enemies and when you hit some shortcut you start spraying bullets. It will be very uncomfortable for those dudes to just stand there. Of course shooting one target only would be allowed as well.

I think single shot must be very usefull gun ability.

I agree. But not only because of aimed shots, but just raw damage output. Players should be allowed to shoot more unaimed single shots with less ap and more damage.

Only sniper riffle class should be able to do eyeshot (sniper riffle, hunting riffle, laser riffle, XL?, gauss gun??). And pistols too (10mm, desert eagle, 14mm,...). Eyeshot should do criticals and raise the basic gun damage to bigger values.

You know eyeshots with guns go a bit over the limit, nobody aims in the eyes with a gun. Should be only spared for special melee attack.

Only riffles (and sniper rffles and pistol too) should be able to head shots. Head shots will have (1/6, ...) propability to change itsself to eyeshot. At this moment, i dont exactly know, what head shot should do.. maybe knock like now, but limited.

Pistols could be the most accurate guns in close combat. For example a magnum headshot from close range could be one of the most effective strikes in game. But they would lose to smgs in rate of fire.
Only rifles would be able to perform proper aimed shots from range. This would make them ideal in taking out troubblesome big gunners.
Perhaps just more damage. Maximum damage that is. While limb shots cripple, head shots would just do more damage. Knockouts are actually pretty bad feature, it's fair and good in single player but not allowing other player do anything is just annoying.

Hand shot ... similar like now.. bigger possibility to lose the gun or cripple hand.
  Foot shot... possibility of slowing enemy movement for short time.

Yes yes makes sense. But what about groin shots? Should be spared to melee only?

[gordulan]

well, if i may add to this, i personally think that groin shots could lower the enemy's maximum aim for a short time by like 10% (so, from 95% to hit, the max would be 85% CTH), the pain that the guy/chick is going through being shot in the privates gotta remove some concentration from him/her.

[Lordus]

well, if i may add to this, i personally think that groin shots could lower the enemy's maximum aim for a short time by like 10% (so, from 95% to hit, the max would be 85% CTH), the pain that the guy/chick is going through being shot in the privates gotta remove some concentration from him/her.

 I forgot groin shot.   Damn, i never liked this kind of attacks. I alway showed men's empathy so i rahter killed men's enemy rather than turture him.

 Yeah, ti could be some effect like you described. But what about women enemy.. They are more sensitive in chest.. So make this different for each sex?

[gordulan]

nah, i think that getting hit in the groin hurts just as much for women as for mes, but most of us here are men in anycase, so we wouln't know that, and most of the girls who play this game haven't really been shot in the groin, so we can't exactly find out...

[avv]

And besides, shot in the groin isn't always the balls, but belly too. Shot in that area is the most painful thing and hardest to treat.

So perhaps groin injury would cause long term general weakening injury that couldn't be removed with just one doctor attempt. Or whatever, we're stuck into discussing something as important as kicking someone in the balls

Hey we need more people's opinions here. Stop making new threads and come here to discuss.

[Lordus]

  I have little problem. I have not enough time to spend in this process next few weeks, because of degree examination on university and graduation thesis. So i hope you will continue with this process without me for this time.

 I have found another problem for bursting weapons damage:

 Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.

 So what to do with this? Solutions:

 1) Remove DT from armors (and maybe increase DR)
 or
 2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with  bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.

 Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.

 3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.

[avv]

Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.

In fallouts big guns were just big guns. They were just more damage dealing than small guns because they were later game weapons and that's that. Very bad feature in an mmo.
The fact that bg fires burst is just an illusion. The burst happens instantly and lasts as long as single shot. It's just a damage package that seems like a burst because it consumes more ammo and has a spread.
What we gotta do is to change the role of big guns. Instead of powerful bursts that happen instantly bg should fire short bursts for extended periods of time. This way they hold upper hand on defense, open areas and direct face2face shootouts because the enemy just can't cope with the constant slugging. And if bullets determine the damage by default the damages should stay reasonable. We don't necessarily have to touch armors just because of big guns.

2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with  bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.

 Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.

 3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.

Our armors are actually quite neat. They got AC, DT and DR. 3 factors to play with, quite enough to create variety and differend weapons to counter them.

[Johnny Nuclear]

 I have little problem. I have not enough time to spend in this process next few weeks, because of degree examination on university and graduation thesis. So i hope you will continue with this process without me for this time.

 I have found another problem for bursting weapons damage:

 Armors and their Resistances (DR/DT). DR is percentual resistance, this is ok, but DT lower the damage by constant numbers. So if my assault riffle will do 20 DMG, the kevlar armor will reduce it by 8 to 12 and than percentage. So bigger guns (guns with bigger bursts - burst with more shells) are in another advantage against "small burst weapons". This is kind of hidden bonus to big guns in PvP. I have to repeat, that in singleplayer game is this ok, but in PvP this is very unbalancing.

 So what to do with this? Solutions:

 1) Remove DT from armors (and maybe increase DR)
 or
 2) Create multiplayer types of armor. One type should be with  bigger DT but with zero DR (ideal agaisnt big guns enemy), another type with low DR but with constant amount of DT. So if you will prepare attack on your enemy, you will have to choose your armor type.

 Of course, there can exist levels of armors, like now.. Leather, Metal, Kevlar, but in every level, there should exist a choice form 2 basic types with DT or DR defence ability.

 3) Create ammo type for smg, which will ignore the DT. Like in real world, the P90 ammo is designed to bypass armors. Or Needler gun in fonline should have same effect.

AP ammo with penetrate perk = DT/5 if you didnt know

Here I put some more guns in your chart.


 Didn't pay as much attention as you did, but one thing that could be discussed is the big gun overpower at close range. Big guns should IMO be the medium-long range dominators in the open and defense but outmatced in tight areas by smgs, pistols and shotguns.

so you really think that shotgun should be stronger than minigun in 1 hex fight ? 

[Ganado]

I like the ideas on your first post, many of them got my interest, but just saying that it wouldn't be that a rifle still wouldn't go straight through your skull at 10 hexes, but it would for some reason at 20 Hexes.

[avv]

so you really think that shotgun should be stronger than minigun in 1 hex fight ? 

Yes I honestly do. Miniguns are bulky, you don't just wave them around as easily as lighter shotguns. There is a reason why soldiers and police use shotguns indoors over machine guns. We just don't have the strategic components to build this kind of balance yet.

[Johnny Nuclear]

is this RL or fallout ?, i belive that in 2077 were advanceed light , hard set and tough alloys and high technologies which allowed to make portable machine guns and miniguns, we are still in fallout.