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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Ombra on April 15, 2010, 04:46:21 pm
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Suggestion day, lol.
Anyway I planned to write this days ago, so I'll do it now.
Refer also to this old suggestion post: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1294.0 (with winning pool for Melee Chars)
As many of you have noticed, the melee/unarmed player has almost no PvP utility at all, apart from meatshield.
Fallout world is usually well-crowded of melee gangs, big brutes with large hammer, martial artists, boxers and so on.
Unlucky, FOnline is not.
With RT fights Melee are totally fucked up for two obvious reason: they have to stay near the target and they are brutalized by long range sniper who see you while you don't see them (melee get low PER usually) and also get continuos knockback from any gunner.
One of the few (or maybe only) advantage they get is weapons-related: they don't use ammunitions and don't need to craft them (but Rippers and similar need it!) and also there is no weapon deterioration.
I've some suggestions for the classes. I don't say to include THEM all, but just get one or a combination of some.
- Fix Melee Damage (also refer to this post in bug section: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=962.0 ): the description say "Amount of bonus damage a character does in hand-to-hand combat" but in the system this is not bonus damage at all. Actually every point in Melee Damage is ADDED to the maximum damage of the weapon (not even the minimum!), reducing drastically the usefulness.
I think there are two ways to fix this: make damage added to minimum as well (Spear with 3-10 base dmg + 5 Melee Damage = 8-18 dmg) or you can bring Melee Damage to origin and make it a REAL bonus with the following formula: [(Melee Weapon DMG - DMG Threshold) - DMG Resistance%] + Melee DMG Bonus = Total DMG dealt. - Boost evasion and/or enemy miss chance: give to Melee/Unarmed character the advantage of major evasion bonus, enhancing AC and/or chance of hit you. This can be related to skill level of Melee Weapons and Unarmed Weapons or, if possible, to distance of the enemy (closer you are, less chance to hit you).
- Convert some Perks in Melee/Unarmed only: some of those "dead" perks can be converted in favor of HtH ones.
For example:
"Bonus Move: you are more resistant to enemy fire. You have less chance to getting knockback while running".
"Adrenaline Rush: when you are less than 40% HP you Resistance Damage is improved of 10%"
"Dodger: you know how easily dodge any attack. Your weakest body parts (eyes, head) are harder to hit"
You can make those perks HtH-only by adding STR, END, Melee Weapons and/or Unarmed Weapons as requirement. - Only HtHrs can use Sneak: it will be usable as a combat skill only by HtH fighters; it's more realistic (like ninjas and assassins) and it will improve HtH classes removing unrealistic use of Sneak ("big gunner predator" for example). Maybe devs can do this making Sneak unusable and auto-remove when you have any non-melee/unarmed weapon in one slot (it check both active and secondary slot).
- Run and Hit: It can be a perks or a server change; anyway, HtH need to run and attack, not walk and attack. This will greatly improve their efficiency. When you click to attack an enemy, your character run, reach him and attack instead of walk.
I hope you people appreciate the suggestion. I'm not trying to make the hand-to-hand classes overpowered, I just want to make them more competitive.
I want to hear your thoughts about it and devs opinion as well.
P.S. Sorry for my english :p
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leave bonus move as it is, i use it for PvE
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the biggest feature unarmed characters lack now is running when targeting.
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leave bonus move as it is, i use it for PvE
lol, it was just an example, I don't want to ruin other characters ;D
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Any time! Unarmed and melee deserve buff. But not until everyone is either punished from dying some more serious way or this kind of system implemented:
When unarmed char dies, he loses all his cool special attacks like piercing kick, haymaker, jab etc. He has to go buy them from some trainer dude. Otherwise unarmed players have nothing to lose when fighting.
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It's a very good suggestion. I'm trying PvP with unarmed char right now, I have to say it is a bit hard. There is a very little pros and a lot of cons.
Pros:
-You don't get the first shot, you don't have weapons
-You can easily knockback
-You're good against snipers, but you need to be in front of them
-When you're in front of someone you catch his attention, good point for your allies
-You don't need hard stuff to fight, you are the first on the battlefield and you loose an epsilon when you die
-If you have sneak, you are the cheapest and fastest scout able to fight
Cons:
-You need a lot of HPs, or a very good sneak
-Hard to level-up without playing experiences
-Hard to reach someone without sneak
-Armored and drugged soldier are hard to kill
-Good kicks or punchs needs 8-9AP with HtH Attacks
-You need patience
-YOU CAN'T RUN AND ATTACK
-Items like knuckles are useless, a strong punch with 6STR is better than Spiked Knuckles
-You are not very efficient in teambattle
-->The primary issue that must be fixed is attack & running.
--> Revorking some useless perks is a very good idea
-->Make melee weapon/knuckles usefull, if you are able to perform a Haymaker, why can't you with a knuckle ? It is possible to perform special punch with a weapon ?
I add idea about sneak and Hth
While sneaking ONLY, Silent Death should have a bonus crit(or more damage) for the first attack in the back
Avv, how can you loose a kick you master by dying ? This idea will ruin MORE unarmed than ever. Special attacks are not overpowered, I find them quite weak actually, 10AP for a piercing kick in the eyes with Bonus HtH attacks is hard...
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I've quite your same impressions, Arry :)
If FOnline as the same Sneak system of Fallout 2, the first attack from Sneak is always with bonus damage...
Anyway: if regardless of Sneak lvl and enemy PER you are always seen at 3 hexes or less, how the hell you Sneak Attack in melee? ???
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You can't attack without being seen but, the simple fact to have [Sneak] + Silent Death + In the back should give you a bonus
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This sounds pretty useless to me :-\
Anyway, at least we need a general boost, even if not "assassin" style (which would be awesome ;D )
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Any time! Unarmed and melee deserve buff. But not until everyone is either punished from dying some more serious way or this kind of system implemented:
When unarmed char dies, he loses all his cool special attacks like piercing kick, haymaker, jab etc. He has to go buy them from some trainer dude. Otherwise unarmed players have nothing to lose when fighting.
That's one of the worst ideas I've ever seen. Your fighting ability shouldn't be "forgot" when you die or no one will ever make an unarmed char. Not needing items is the only benefit since you're useless in pvp.
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Pros:
-You don't get the first shot, you don't have weapons
-You can easily knockback
-You're good against snipers, but you need to be in front of them
-When you're in front of someone you catch his attention, good point for your allies
-You don't need hard stuff to fight, you are the first on the battlefield and you loose an epsilon when you die
-If you have sneak, you are the cheapest and fastest scout able to fight
I think the same. You have nothing to lose, with a few medic skills you're ready one minute after your death, and you can do tremendous criticals. Well, imo this is enough. Plus, I'm sure (I tested it) that Unarmed is really working when you mix it with other skills (Guns skills or Sneak, for example).
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I think the same. You have nothing to lose, with a few medic skills you're ready one minute after your death, and you can do tremendous criticals. Well, imo this is enough. Plus, I'm sure (I tested it) that Unarmed is really working when you mix it with other skills (Guns skills or Sneak, for example).
nah these works only against noobs, in real time clever enemies just run away from you till you walk and kill you. unarmed is very good skill pve but in pvp its just useless.
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Well, yeah, I suppose so. I was trying to get examples of real-time games where you can win with a sword against a rifle, but I just realized there's none.
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exteel? i pwn people with blade & shield
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& superpowers. =p Real people or NPCs ?
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Unarmed can be good in PvP, but you need to make some HtH damages. Even with piercing kick I did 7 dmg, then 8dmg crit in the eyes... Not very effective. It was ofc against full drugged+Metal MKII char
Why unarmed are so weak Pvp ? Because they can't run and attack like others, after you get the knockback and your enemy is dead and can't do nothin' about it. With power fist I think you can make some good damages
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power fist are useless and expensive. empty hand and emty inventory thats the best with unarmed:)
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Another thing I noticed who unbalance HtH fighters:
while you can run a few then shoot with a ranged weapon (and miss or hit), with melee you must stay at 1-2 hexes away from enemy (1 with unarmed) and that's very vulnerable to lag, in which sometimes you see animation of attack but you don't attack at all!
Please Izual, tell me some impression/serious comment about an eventual remake of melee class ;D
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I'm not a dev. All I can tell here is my own opinion.
I think Unarmed characters are already really powerful. Tag Unarmed, Fa, Doc, get a hotel room and some levels. You don't need any armor, ammo, weapon, repair, crafting or so. Which is the case for all the people using firearms. You can be killed and be back to fight one minute later. I think unarmed is fine. Uber criticals, no consequences if you die, you never craft, you never repair, you never need ammo.
On the other hand, Melee needs to be redone. Melee weapons should be as deadly as firearms. Melee weapons should be more frequent and also should have some damage boost (because they're useless against armors now).
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Please, no spam on my thread :( | I fixed it ;p - Iz
I'm not a dev. All I can tell here is my own opinion. [...] On the other hand, Melee needs to be redone. Melee weapons should be as deadly as firearms. Melee weapons should be more frequent and also should have some damage boost (because they're useless against armors now).
I totally agree with you, and It's good to see your opinion, even if not a dev.
Well, now I just hope a dev read this thread and give his impression...
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Unarmed char without insta kill is going to do about 100 dmg if he's lucky in one AP cycle, a ripper will do about 4 times that.
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Unarmed char without insta kill is going to do about 100 dmg if he's lucky in one AP cycle, a ripper will do about 4 times that.
THats why they call it a ripper *wink wink*
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My point is Izual saying unarmed is OP just makes me think he's never leveled an unarmed char. They are far from powerful, even at 21. Also melee and unarmed are essentially the same as end level weapons for both are pretty much identical, mega power fist vs ripper.
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I had many unarmed char since OBT2 and I got one at the moment, mid-level. Does it enlighten my post ? Yes, I play an Unarmed char and I keep saying they have enough power.
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I like unarmed and mele builds but it feels... strange. Currently we have 3 primary types of weapons and unarmed/mele/throwing are possible only as a secondary skill that most people take just for the lulz than to actually fight with them. They might work in PvE and even then only if you have shitloads of stimpacks with you. What I would personally like if its introduced is pretty much described in http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=3681.0.
I would love "special" attacks and different fight styles depended on what have you learned and how did you mastered it as a player. I mean regular guy does not kick you same way as some badass karate matrix mindfucking monk. Imho things like avv described in his post that I've linked could be very helpful and some nice examples can be shown at close combat.
So when it comes to HtH combat I imagine it somehow like this:
- can sprint faster than others for short period of time
- can disarm enemies
- can stun enemies (knockback, knockdown, kidney/groin shot, Chuck's kick (oh wait thats insta kill)
- can blind enemies for a few seconds (sand in the eyes)
- can easily "dance" around his target without loosing APs (won't sit like a duck at one single hex)
- very hard to be knocked down or cripeled + better dodge chance
- possibility to change stances like kamikaze/cautious/normal
Kamikaze: takes 10% extra dmg but runs at 120% speed all the time and less hp you got more dmg (or critical hits) you deal
Cautious: regular speed, deals less crit hits, higher dodge chance
- can deploy many fast shots that distract enemy or single powerful blow (maybe some chance to "eat" oponents APs while you are attacking him, like -1AP with 10-30% chance to drain them per hit)
- can stab you = bleeding effect and damage over time
Also mele should recognise different builds like silent ninja killer that combines sneaking and hth combat or big dumb walking rock thats not afraid to get into cross fire or some regular bar fighter with broken beer bottle etc.
Think what you want but I would definitely like something like this ingame 8).
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Oh, well, then I'll totally make only unarmed char. ;p Don't you think it would be just a bit unbalanced ?
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Oh, well, then I'll totally make only unarmed char. ;p Don't you think it would be just a bit unbalanced ?
Imho things like avv described in his post that I've linked could be very helpful and some nice examples can be shown at close combat.
It does not mean only HtH chars should have such skills. Its just an example because its easier to come up with some HtH stuff right away then thinking how something similar could be used at long range combat. But hey here are some for them too:
- possibility to deal wider splash dmg with explosives, rockets, grenades but slightly reduced dmg (if you know where to aim you know how to shoot so blastwave will hurt them all)
- truly aimed shots: eats shitload of APs (if you don't have enough to execute they will go below 0 and then regenerate) = they should affect hit chance mainly and dmg/crit only slightly
- spray and pray: point at the direction and burst, small chance to randomly hit targets at places you don't even know that are there = chance to penetrate armor but only few bullets per burst hit the target
Etc. These are just spontaneous brain storms but I think you got the idea.
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Actually those ideas would be good if you mixed them (I think you meant to mix them) with the "unarmed styles" ideas. Like if Lo Pan taught you, you can do that truly aimed shots thing, if it's the Dragon then spray and pray thing. Just examples. But I also think it would be quite a hard word (of implementing and balancing) for such a skill. Unfortunately it's quite low-priority, since it's also a big change.
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Well I think it could be quiet vice versa to what you say about balancing. Sure at first it would take enormous amount of braniacs thinking of all possible aspects and their outcomes, then trying to implement it (= fight with technical stuff) and then eventual live test maybe first with closed community and then at full scale update.
But when this initial huge pile of work is done I believe balance issues could be solved with more ease. I mean every build would have its own set of skills that differs it from others and it would not be just battle of numbers. Even tho powerbuilders would still exist with those perfectly counted SPECIAL stats and precisely chosen perks but these skills/abilities could provide some choice to develop your character by your personal taste. You want to snipe everything as most effectively as you can? Why not, but you will suck at everything else. Another guy might rather increase his grenade range+knockdown chance and he will pop up with an assault rifle in his hands from behind the corner and eat you alive with few quick bursts combined with those nasty grenades... Simply variety of skills and abilities that alter your character in combat or crafting/support/npc interaction are things that I'm looking for in future FOnline.
Edit: My brain was off when I wrote that strikeout part.
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Yup, I agree with quite everything you said. It could also be exported to firearms with, again, special trainers, and you could only being taught by one in your entire life. It wouldn't be that complicated, I think. For example, one trainer could teach you how to do aimed shots with long range rifles (Sniper profession), another to burst with SMGs or P90C, another to widen range and to do more damage with grenades, etc, etc...
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Yup, I agree with quite everything you said. It could also be exported to firearms with, again, special trainers, and you could only being taught by one in your entire life. It wouldn't be that complicated, I think. For example, one trainer could teach you how to do aimed shots with long range rifles (Sniper profession), another to burst with SMGs or P90C, another to widen range and to do more damage with grenades, etc, etc...
Well problem is if these abilities should be active. Because I think making them all only passive is also somehow flat ::). But on the other hand if we should be able to use some abilities only when they are "charged" so trigger them, profit from their effect, wait until they regenerate then it might be tricky to get ingame. Such active abilities would be really nightmare to implement if you want to keep "good old Fallout" feeling untouched. I sense some WoW comments coming...
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It should be very simple to implement, and still an "active" skill. Like having a rifle that can't do aim shots first (as if it had no scope) and then (when you're trained) as if you had actually a rifle with a scope. Aim shots option would be available. Hm, don't know if it would work.
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Well but then again think about special attacks f.e. in HtH combat. Blind (sand in eyes) or fast sprint toward your enemy should definitely be limited with something more than just APs and "scroll" through special attacks in by clicking on weapon slot would be disaster when you have more than 2 skills. Its already pain in the ass with HtH to choose that right action in real time. I mean you have punch/kick and both also aimed. Those are only 4 different kinds of attack and its a mess already.
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It would be cool if unarmed fighters fought gunmen rambo style. Lurking in shadows and cutting throaths from behind. Think of predator, or hell any movie where some evil villain takes out gunmen with bare hands or meathook. Charging right into caws burst by relying on your super duper reflexes, hitpoints and dr shouldn't be an option how unarmed man would fight.
But power armored guys could just charge into the fray with super sledge and smash everybody across the wasteland.
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dudes all that hth needs now is an ability to run when you are attacking target, and you are talking about "sand in eyes", get serious...
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dudes all that hth needs now is an ability to run when you are attacking target, and you are talking about "sand in eyes", get serious...
We are sorry that we have visions and dreams. From now on we will post only the most simple and quickest suggestions. So it will be cool with vedaras. M'kay?
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Get a load of this guy, he still has visions and dreams!
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Ive given up on suggestions because most people here dont want FOnline to be turned into a "wow"-like MMORPG. In their eyes, HtH is inferior, because a gun wins vs a martial artist IRL.
So instead, ive summarized my thoughts on the issue in my sig.
...Ok a bit more....
HtH needs better survivability, not damage.
As default i treat unarmed to be paired with sneak, because... NINJAS!!!! *cough* So the idea is that sneak should be only usable by unarmed(sneak penalty for weapons in active hands just like high lvl armor)
My unarmed char with 10 luck is an awesome crippler. Not good damage, i break a pigrats both legs before he dies, and thats a good thing. Like some of you mentioned, unarmed should be a disarming/crippling menace, but certainly not an instakiller. So damage wise, i think unarmed is OK.
IMO sneak should work like HtH evade does/would: Give an AC bonus of sneak skill/X to AC while the character is sneaking. You cant know if an enemy is actually seeing you and starting an attack, or he just ignores you or whatever. Sudden death while sneaking even with high sneak is unpleasent this way... Dodgeing an attack should not break sneak. Sneak should have a CD(like the FA formula), but should be used while players can see you and in TB. The 3 hex rule should not be applied while behind the character.
What about melee then? Fastshot. Please. Its a must. Other then that: If sneak has a penalty with melee weapons - and it should(i mean really: sneak with a minigun, or a sledgehammer? No.), then melee needs other survivability. Melee will allways be primary targets, because unarmed are sneaking bastards. They are the ones that soak up the most damage in theory, so either you accept it or not, they ARE the tank class in the game, just like everywhere else. Currently fights end very fast, and melee chars are very rare(because they suck at pvp), thats why it doesnt apply yet. So to compensate that, they need DR/hp. Toughness and lifegiver is open to everybody, but adrenaline rush is still open(because its useless). What would be the best tho game and balance wise -but noone wants to hear this, because everybody want them badly- is to simply give the tanks some armor, PA. Thus limited damage, no crippling utility like unarmed with its high critchance attacks, BUT could soak up a decent amount of damage. See PA thread for details. Im repeating myself, im a troll afterall, but i have yet to hear a valid counter-argument, other then "its silly" and "everybody should get PA".
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How do you want to make differences between certain classes other than their abilities and skills? Right now everyone can get everything so if you would introduce something to boost HtH combat then even BG can reach for it and mix his build with it and then kick ass even more. Simply something like "class perks" would help here. But there again 21 levels does not provide enough space for char development. I've taken it even further and I suggested active/passive abilities (and those passive ones could get implemented without anyone whining about wow style, they just need restrictions so you can get them ONLY when you choose certain path so you will be somehow limited a bit so you can't create super builds etc.). You've suggested balancing based on items/armors if I get it right. Thats imho not that bright solution.
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Special trainer giving bonus? You will need high unarmed/melee skill and he will give you bonus equal to your skill?
eg. you will need 160 unarmed (and sneak?) to be trained and you will get AC bonus equal to some probably linear function of sneak and unarmed?
That could be special profesion with master in San Francisco and some lower masters each around world in gangs...
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Special trainer giving bonus? You will need high unarmed/melee skill and he will give you bonus equal to your skill?
eg. you will need 160 unarmed (and sneak?) to be trained and you will get AC bonus equal to some probably linear function of sneak and unarmed?
That could be special profesion with master in San Francisco and some lower masters each around world in gangs...
Restrictions for these additional abilities like higher AC while using sneak or such should not rely only on skillpoints. Maybe it get balanced after all but its still easy to raise additional skill up to 160 with some PvP powerbuilds. I think tree structure for such abilities is just best way to go. You have to take few low lvl abilities first in order to unlock higher and more effective ones. That means if someone other like big gunner would like to reach for those better abilities in HtH branch in offense/defense tree then he will have to sacrifice his abilities from BG branch. So no ultimate builds possible here therefore I think its easiest way how to balance stuff like this. If its only about skillpoints and stats then it seems more abuseable to me.
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Maybe logaritmic function from unarmed and sneak.
So to make it realy big efect and nearly unhitable (altrough one lucky shot and unarmed character would be dead..) player have to take unarmed and sneak (and have high of those two). With some SPECIAL restriction.
Yeah, BG could take them, but he would have mutch lower BG skill, no outdoor or FA and he would need quite big inteligence, because of logaritmic effect of those bonus. That would allow to make new kinds of build, sneaky SG etc.
But what with melee? They need armor to survive and weapon to make damage.
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Many people with many different ideas, but one thing is clear: HtH needs improve.
Honestly, I don't care about who say "Oh c'mon, HtH is the ****, firearms is superior!"
Those people never really played Fallout 1/2. I used to have melee chars who kick a$$ to anyone, from deathclaw to Enclave warriors with big and bad guns.
As Fischi said, we need to improve the survivability of HtH fighters, not the damage.
You can do this in various ways. When I think about melee/unarmed players, some standard models come in my mind:
- The "Martial Artists": who use is body as a lethal weapon. He should have dodge increased. If the system consent it, it would be cool to have increased chance to cripple limbs.
- The "Ninja": lurks and kills from shadow. If Sneak system works well, it should be a character able to strike with killing force from hidden status, as well as have increased critical hit chance.
- The "Swashbuckler": a perfect and brute tank. It should have boosted HP and/or increased DR-DT.
I'm not trying to convert FOnline in a fantasy-class game, that's are just "types" for ispiration and improvement.
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I'm not trying to convert FOnline in a fantasy-class game, that's are just "types" for ispiration and improvement.
I think that's what we need. No strict classes, but gearing perks to encourage certain playstyles. Just going through and trying to come up with a few character archetypes, rather than everyone taking Lifegiver and More Crits.
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Agree.
The target is find a good balance between "everywhere with same perks" and "game with strict classes".
One thing we have to understand is that a MMO game should be oriented in variety (maybe adding more requirement to perks or changing/making specialization perks) or we get the same clone over and over again.
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Update:
with the current situation of server and changes, I want to add 2 suggestions:
- Only HtHrs can use Sneak: it will be usable as a combat skill only by HtH fighters; it's more realistic (like ninjas and assassins) and it will improve HtH classes removing unrealistic use of Sneak ("big gunner predator" for example).
Maybe devs can do this making Sneak unusable and with auto-remove when you have any non-melee/unarmed weapon in one slot (it check both active and secondary slot). - Run and Hit: It can be a perks or a server change; anyway, HtH need to run and attack, not walk and attack. This will greatly improve their efficiency. When you click to attack an enemy, your character run, reach him and attack instead of walk.
Feedback please :)
(hope that's not considered spam...)
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the problem for HtH build in PvP is in real time you can not hit a player while both of you are running. On the contrary your opponent can hit you, run and hit you again. I think run and hit mentioned by roach could be change to charge or something so that while running near 3 hex for example you can make a sudden move burst him 5 hay maker or try to target and break his legs in real time combat.
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maybe when 3D is implemented, do a grapple on him, and force him to spill his guts with your ripper
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the problem for HtH build in PvP is in real time you can not hit a player while both of you are running. On the contrary your opponent can hit you, run and hit you again. I think run and hit mentioned by roach could be change to charge or something so that while running near 3 hex for example you can make a sudden move burst him 5 hay maker or try to target and break his legs in real time combat.
To top it all, Range attack send you "back" when you run and they shoot you, like some sort of knockback...
Your "charge" looks cool, but I think it's too difficult to realize for devs.
I have another idea: what if we give Unarmed/Melee charas the passive ability (or perks) to regain AP while running?
Maybe in a slower rate, but it shoul help a bit...
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I understand that you want to add benefit to HtH or melee skill players, because in compare of other PvP firearms skills, they have less chance to win the fight. But IMO, until they will have power armor, they will be still vulnerable.
So stop this improvement works and lets try to look at this problem from another angle. My suggestion is, that HtH and melee skill could be special kind of skill that you can use even in guarded cities against other player, with no penalty of death from guards... Like if you are in pub and you fight with your hands only because someone told you, that your wife is ugly.. I know, that you this is abusable, but instead of raising the power of this attacks, add more occasions where you can use this skills without penalties.
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I understand that you want to add benefit to HtH or melee skill players, because in compare of other PvP firearms skills, they have less chance to win the fight. But IMO, until they will have power armor, they will be still vulnerable.
So stop this improvement works and lets try to look at this problem from another angle. My suggestion is, that HtH and melee skill could be special kind of skill that you can use even in guarded cities against other player, with no penalty of death from guards... Like if you are in pub and you fight with your hands only because someone told you, that your wife is ugly.. I know, that you this is abusable, but instead of raising the power of this attacks, add more occasions where you can use this skills without penalties.
Actually I think this would be very much abusable. It would definitely lead to: no more save cities in the wasteland.
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Actually I think this would be very much abusable. It would definitely lead to: no more save cities in the wasteland.
this is only example.. i want to add new purpose to this fight skills, not to level up their ability against firearms class.. but this is only idea, i never used unarmed and HtH...
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melee sneakers need silent death perk. may be de double damage bonus can be based in a sneak roll against PE.
other perks can be reworked/modified to give more advantage to melee chars (HtH evade, adrenaline rush, bonus HtH damage)
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melee sneakers need silent death perk. may be de double damage bonus can be based in a sneak roll against PE.
other perks can be reworked/modified to give more advantage to melee chars (HtH evade, adrenaline rush, bonus HtH damage)
Silent death will never work because you will always be seen one hex behind your target due to the new sneak system. You can't sneak attack if you can't get close enough without being seen. HTH evade would be a fun option but even dumping tons of points into it has minimal returns since past 150% you're solely benefiting from the dodge and even at 250% it's like a bonus of 16 ac.
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Roachor, you're wrong, Silent Death work IF you are sneak, the fact that you're seen is not a matter. I've done some test with my Hth char and it seem to work even if you're seen :)
I like the idea to be able to fight in town, but if you kill someone, you get killed by guards...if you're not in a small and dark place :P
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Roachor, you're wrong, Silent Death work IF you are sneak, the fact that you're seen is not a matter. I've done some test with my Hth char and it seem to work even if you're seen :)
I like the idea to be able to fight in town, but if you kill someone, you get killed by guards...if you're not in a small and dark place :P
good to know
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HTH evade would be a fun option but even dumping tons of points into it has minimal returns since past 150% you're solely benefiting from the dodge and even at 250% it's like a bonus of 16 ac.
yes, that why i say "reworked/modified".
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To top it all, Range attack send you "back" when you run and they shoot you, like some sort of knockback...
Your "charge" looks cool, but I think it's too difficult to realize for devs.
I have another idea: what if we give Unarmed/Melee charas the passive ability (or perks) to regain AP while running?
Maybe in a slower rate, but it shoul help a bit...
It was mentioned that bonus move should add a small AP regen while moving in RT. Ofc this would apply for non HtH too. But i dont see that happening any time soon, AP regen is a bit constant like it doesnt regen while you are switching weapons or doing other actions etc which sucks... :/
But maybe, in a distant future AP regen will be a valuable aspect that can be altered with skills/stats, and even perks/itemperks(like a weaponperk that when hits the enemy, lowers ap regen or special armor that boost ap regen etc)
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It was mentioned that bonus move should add a small AP regen while moving in RT. Ofc this would apply for non HtH too. But i dont see that happening any time soon, AP regen is a bit constant like it doesnt regen while you are switching weapons or doing other actions etc which sucks... :/
But maybe, in a distant future AP regen will be a valuable aspect that can be altered with skills/stats, and even perks/itemperks(like a weaponperk that when hits the enemy, lowers ap regen or special armor that boost ap regen etc)
Ap doesn't have anything to do with movement in realtime, if anything players should move 20% faster.
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I understand that you want to add benefit to HtH or melee skill players, because in compare of other PvP firearms skills, they have less chance to win the fight. But IMO, until they will have power armor, they will be still vulnerable.
So stop this improvement works and lets try to look at this problem from another angle. My suggestion is, that HtH and melee skill could be special kind of skill that you can use even in guarded cities against other player, with no penalty of death from guards... Like if you are in pub and you fight with your hands only because someone told you, that your wife is ugly.. I know, that you this is abusable, but instead of raising the power of this attacks, add more occasions where you can use this skills without penalties.
Your idea is really abusable and don't help HtH in combat, honestly... that's not what I have in mind.
Also, when we got power armor EVERYONE will get power armor as well, so the problem remains.
melee sneakers need silent death perk. may be de double damage bonus can be based in a sneak roll against PE.
other perks can be reworked/modified to give more advantage to melee chars (HtH evade, adrenaline rush, bonus HtH damage)
That's exactly what I suggested.
I did some PvP those days and there is absolutely no chance (got 200+ HP, x2 Toughness, Bonus HtH Attacks...).
While you do 60 DMG a small gunner do me 160 DMG. Also no knockback (maybe they got Stonewall), no cripple.
If I am stronger because the enemy is a newbie or something, he simply escape and I can't do a shit;
If the enemy is stronger I'm fucked, because he can kill me while I escape.
We need a rework, SERIOUSLY.
More damage, some kind of regeneration of AP, attack and RUN, silent attacks, more damage resistance... something.
I hope not all devs share Rusty's idea that "melee is a secondary combat skill" and put this imbalance in the "to do list"...
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With a well made character, as well as some common sense / strategy, melee is a viable option in pvp.
Yes, the abillity to target enemy, and continue at running speed to their position would be nice, but this has been discussed and it is undetermined whether it can/will be changed. This in itself does not really appeal to me.... If you are playin a melee character, smartly, you will NOT attempt to cross a vast open area, in direct view of your enemy, and try to hit them. this will fail 9/10 times.
"I hope not all devs share Rusty's idea that "melee is a secondary combat skill" and put this imbalance in the "to do list"...".
this ^ ... I surely hope this is not true as well, but from discussion I have had, there seems to be no interest whatsoever to try and flesh out the melee combat field, by reinstating the missing weapons.
Obviously from the number of replies in this topic, I am not the only person who enjoys to play melee, and not use guns. I must say, there needs to be something done about it for sure.
I dont think there is any need to change the way damage is dealt with melee / unarmed , more important in my eyes is to have some fucking variety in weapons.
Currently missing are:
-Louisville slugger ( this weapon deals less damage, and does less knockback/knockdown than supersledge, why is it not in game as mid level weapon?)
-Little jesus knife
-Wakizashi Blade ( this should be carried by yakuza, it is freakin ridiculous to encounter them using combat knives...really....)
-Boxing gloves (Sure, it might be a novelty type item, but I'm willing to bet there are some unarmed player who would enjoy to use this )
Melee skill as it is, has enough disadvantages already, without dying of boredom.
Basically restricted to using 3 weapons , super sledge, super prod, or ripper. All others not effective against much stronger enemy than gecko.
Just my two cents, I hope its well received..
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Ombra, Pvp Hth is weak yes, but do you have 10 AG, 10FO, 10 END ? With those stats one punch, one knock out, viable on enclave or Players, but it's quite hard and you need a lot of buffouts... Of course it's doesnt protect you from insta-kill, but it makes you a little more viable. With some sneak and 2 psycho + thoughness, you can begin to make your enemies look at you and run if you comes near... It let your allies to shoot them, ofc I admit you need more drugs than a BG Pvp :)
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With a well made character, as well as some common sense / strategy, melee is a viable option in pvp.
Yes, the abillity to target enemy, and continue at running speed to their position would be nice, but this has been discussed and it is undetermined whether it can/will be changed. This in itself does not really appeal to me.... If you are playin a melee character, smartly, you will NOT attempt to cross a vast open area, in direct view of your enemy, and try to hit them. this will fail 9/10 times.
I'm pretty veteran with HtH characters and high level too.
I'm not saying they're completely useless, they make good PvE, use weapon with no deterioration and don't need ammo.
But... don't lie yourself, in a 1vs1 same level-fight, we are pretty fucked. I find horribly frustrating how you can't kill a weaker player because he escape easily or how you can't escape from a gunner.
If the engine don't consent to implement the "run and hit" system, then skip it. I posted a lot of suggestions that can improve our class.
"I hope not all devs share Rusty's idea that "melee is a secondary combat skill" and put this imbalance in the "to do list"...".
this ^ ... I surely hope this is not true as well, but from discussion I have had, there seems to be no interest whatsoever to try and flesh out the melee combat field, by reinstating the missing weapons.
Obviously from the number of replies in this topic, I am not the only person who enjoys to play melee, and not use guns. I must say, there needs to be something done about it for sure.
Too bad I can't post screen atm :)
Rusty said he consider Melee a "secondary skill" and almost laughed saying "An hammer against a gun?".
I would be happy to know who want to spend points in a "secondary skill", since 2 combat skill have no sense at all and you have no chance to waste skill points in this game.
Well, in my opinion FOnline is not ABSOLUTELY RELATED to Fallout without HtH. Because they're a classic part of the game and also add variety.
Ombra, Pvp Hth is weak yes, but do you have 10 AG, 10FO, 10 END ? With those stats one punch, one knock out, viable on enclave or Players, but it's quite hard and you need a lot of buffouts... Of course it's doesnt protect you from insta-kill, but it makes you a little more viable. With some sneak and 2 psycho + thoughness, you can begin to make your enemies look at you and run if you comes near... It let your allies to shoot them, ofc I admit you need more drugs than a BG Pvp :)
No offense dude, but that's a totally failpost. You never played an HtH characters or either you are low level.
With 10 AGI, 10 STR and 10 END... HOW do you exactly manage to get 6 of LCK for Toughness?
Also I tried those stats and reached about lvl 16, but I've remaked my chara to get Toughness.
Knockout don't appear often if you don't aim to head and even if you are lucky enough to do it, you're probably already toasted with some burst or a shot in the eyes.
Oh, and about Psycho... http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4206.0
Also, this suggestion topic is interesting too: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1294.0
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This answer was funny :)
I am a big noob yes sorry for that then :(
No seriously, I have made some test, and I have a build with my lvl 21 Hth. I can have 10AG, 10FO, 10EN +6 LK, + Thoughness, Silent Death and Bonus damage, better crits.
While I was fighting, I think you know that but, fight with 10FO and 6FO yoou'll get more knockback and knockout with 10 than 6. And with piercing kick it's very hard to not crits and knockout. I give it to you, it happens. But after your piercing you go with haymaker and spam the guy. And of course you must aim the eyes or the head
Psycho is against BG only, if you face a sniper or something else, you're screwed anyway...
If you want my special I can give it to you, if you want to compare
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Well, first of all you're talking about an Unarmed, which is slighty different (stronger I have to say) than a Melee, and need no weapon.
How you managed to get 10 STR, 10 END, 10 AGI and 6 LCK? Killing your INT? How you hit eyes for criticals with Haymaker with low skillpoints?
You need also 6 PER for Better Criticals: maybe you're not a noob, but either a daydreamer or a liar :)
Yes, post your SPECIAL, I'm curious now.
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Fo 6
Pe 6
En 6
Ch 1
In 6
Ag 10
Lk 6
Traits : Small frame
This special give to you access to all the perks and special kicks. You have enough skill point to be a sneak Hth and 95% in eyes against BA
You take 2xbuffout to have 10 10 10 and you have 6LK, ofc 1 buffout is enough.
I don't say it's the best build ever for Hth, but I didn't found better to be "quite" effective Pvp, he still a try-char after all
So I may be a daydreamer I give it to you, but what I say is not some lies and some noobish build, so don't tell all your prejudices about me thanks
I'm open to review about this build :)
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So 10 STR and END is just because of drugs.
I don't think I can consider "good" a character that should use drugs everytime to be useful...
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I give you that, at the begining I didn't want to play drugged char... But I realized that without buffout, he are very weak, and with it you're too against snipers.
Atm, Hth is not made for Pvp, it's made for the Hub arena :) If Hth don't get improved, you can forget it for Pvping and Pking
How do you want to have 10 10 10 without drugs, it's impossible I will be a liar if I told you it was ::)
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My instakill sniper has unarmed tagged because even though i have only 5 str i meet the requirements for haymaker which adds 15% to crit, so eyeshots have 45% base + my 24%(at the moment) crit rate means 65% crit chance (usually around 30 dmg) and the instakills as a bonus. You want deadly hth go crit build.
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This don't solve anything, and still, is unarmed-exclusive.
Many of said suggestions are the most enjoyable, if the engine allow them.
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I have a hth char, now 21 lv, sometime he pk someone in New Reno, other he dies from burst of big gun or with metal in his eyes, but when he is killed the search of his corpse is a waste of time, when he win some good loot come in the chest of my faction (a sniper rifle, a metal armor, etc..).
He is a good resource bringer too, many ghouls and raiders falls under his firsts and he bring bullets to the base, and he kill without any waste of resources.
You want more power?
I think this would be unrealistic too , try to charge someone armed with a assalt rifle in open spaces, it don't work fine...
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A Super Sledge and an armor is not a "waste of time" to loot when you die (often).
Still the damage is not comparable with others "classes" and the DR is the same as they, only with the downside that we can't reach the running enemy and we can't escape the ranged one.
I don't care if he's a good "resource bringer", I already know that, but you are reinforcing the idea that an HtH is merely PvE. And I'm trying to make them a competetive class, not a bitch for gathering.
And FOnline don't give a shit about realism, you know. I mean, Sneaky Biggunner, come on.
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Well unfortunately until they can change the engine to enable run attacks hth will remain a pve class.
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Well unfortunately until they can change the engine to enable run attacks hth will remain a pve class.
You are so very wrong, but you can continue thinking that way if you like. Makes me look that much more unsuspecting.
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Well unfortunately until they can change the engine to enable run attacks hth will remain a pve class.
I don't like to repeat myself, so simply read all over again.
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I don't like to repeat myself, so simply read all over again.
Listen Ombra ! He have good ideas for meele and unarmed characters !
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I will reassert what I said about "Melee works fine as it is, even without your 'ooo i wanna run and attack' "
http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/29803a6dca9042d2f3e090285421ad7e/
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Arround 40x "Ahbobsaget was hit for no damage"
;D Gang 8)
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I will reassert what I said about "Melee works fine as it is, even without your 'ooo i wanna run and attack' "
http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/29803a6dca9042d2f3e090285421ad7e/
- You slayed a bunch of noobs in Leather Jacket VS Metal Armor
- Maybe you was drugged with Psycho or they got lame weapons because of all that "No damage"
- You fighted mostly in closed rooms
So, sorry, but those screens prove absolutely NOTHING. Plus there is no special honor for that.
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I doubt any of them had 21 or PvP build. Try to bring up fists/knife/hammer into real gunfight and we will see how you will do. Even if you could deliver 125+ dmg per hit (= 2 hits to kill) to anyone no matter his build/gear/drugs you would still fail most of the times just because of range you have to travel. Try to measure how long does it take to sprint 20 hexes long path. Its about 5 seconds. Plenty of time to burst two times or split your head in two with aimed shot. And most of the fights take place at way more than 20 hexes not mentioning the fact, that you can't hit moving target so just 2 guys with BB guns could kill you with decent cooperation.
HtH combat sucks in PvP. Its fact and its shame.
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Yeah honestly bob anyone you kill dies because they are noobs and don't know they can just slowly walk away from you and you'll never be able to touch them.
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they can also run, that way the can regen some ap after every run period.
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Well, this whole shit took about 10, maybe 15 minutes....its not like i cornered them one by one and smashed them apart, While they stood there. I had to run my ass off, and made them use all their bullets.
So, without going off topic
-Ha, I deny all your suggestions about improving melee , and i will continue to disprove all these godamn haters that think they wont get dominated by the hammer...
An old saying, Its not the tool, its the person that uses it.
:'(
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Well, this whole shit took about 10, maybe 15 minutes....its not like i cornered them one by one and smashed them apart, While they stood there. I had to run my ass off, and made them use all their bullets.
So, without going off topic
-Ha, I deny all your suggestions about improving melee , and i will continue to disprove all these godamn haters that think they wont get dominated by the hammer...
An old saying, Its not the tool, its the person that uses it.
:'(
"It's not the game, it's the tool who plays it." :P
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Well, this whole shit took about 10, maybe 15 minutes....its not like i cornered them one by one and smashed them apart, While they stood there. I had to run my ass off, and made them use all their bullets.
So, without going off topic
-Ha, I deny all your suggestions about improving melee , and i will continue to disprove all these godamn haters that think they wont get dominated by the hammer...
An old saying, Its not the tool, its the person that uses it.
:'(
I take note of you "deny" and also take note of all dozen peoples who posted in this thread and asked for improvement, instead. Have a good day.
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Ombra, i agree that melee, HtH should be the part of the game. Find the role for it, but try to implement it into global one project, like is all PvP balance.
As i said, in real time fight, if we dont want to make Diablo, there is better to find special role for hth or melee, not to make it strong like firearms..
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If you look at all the suggestions in the main post, there is not one about increase damage, but all for damage resistance, chance of knockdown/knocback, cripple arms, improve AC and so on...
I don't want to make melee weapons strong as firearms, but I want to make HtH fighter competetive against firearms.
As I already said you can totally ignore those classes, but that's not Fallout anymore.
You need roles again?
- Unarmed: can be a martial artist, with great AC and AP boost or a boxer with increased HP and damage.
- Melee: can be a juggernaut, with great damage resistance and enhanced chance to cripple or a ninja, with great Sneak and higher chance to crit.
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Or simply change work of AC.
When a target is in range of 5 hexes or closer, it's AC will substract current attacker's % to hit, if he uses two-handed weapon, because it's really hard to shoot at mobile target at close room from a rifle, but you can do it with pistol or SMG.
So, if you holding two-handed firearm, and your target within 1-5 hexes from you, you have (current CtH%)-(target's AC)% CtH. If you holding any one-handed firearm, you ignore this.
So now SG bursters will have some advantage of BG, and HtH characters now will be more happy if they reach thier target.
It's obvious. AC = means you're mobile. Maxed AC means you're from Matrix, it doesn't affect you much at long distance, but at close combat you become really fast target for attacker.
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To everyone,
I guess HtH combat is undervalued but if you change the damage like by 200% it would spawn a lot of melees. THen youll like to buff unarmed. THe other side of that would be to revaluate HPs of every criter again, balance weapons against creatures because youd be able to kill everything with a hammer with one shot (not centaurs or aliens lol) and someone with a pistol not :D
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To everyone,
I guess HtH combat is undervalued but if you change the damage like by 200% it would spawn a lot of melees. THen youll like to buff unarmed. THe other side of that would be to revaluate HPs of every criter again, balance weapons against creatures because youd be able to kill everything with a hammer with one shot (not centaurs or aliens lol) and someone with a pistol not :D
I'm getting tired of this, you people against HtH should read before post the same sentence over and over again:
I don't want to make melee weapons strong as firearms, but I want to make HtH fighter competetive against firearms.
As I already said you can totally ignore those classes, but that's not Fallout anymore.
Edit: I found another thing who need a simply update. You need 80% Unarmed for Silent Death perk...
The fuck?!? Even the image got a dude with a knife, that's completely senseless. Make SD perk available for 80% Unarmed or 80% Melee.
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Hehe, youre right, but imo silent death should remain an unarmed perk because sneaking with a frikkin sledgehammer is wrong :D
Just like sneaking with minigun...
Other subject: HtH Evade needs implementing very fastlike if we want unarmed to have reasonable AC.
So yeah, bonus AC at end of turns dont work for obvious reasons. Or can it?
The engine needs some support about this, but what about a RT AC bonus system that doesnt add AC at end of the turn, but modify AC with every action made? In RT when you are generating AP, thats like waiting for your turn right? So its plausable imo.
You are standing still in NCR with 10 agility, that gives a bonus AC of +10(+20 with hth evade) Punch someone, you have 7 AP, +7 AC. AC should be modified only when you are doing actions, not when your AP is changed. This means, that you dont get AC modified after each AP regenerated, because that would have a serious impact on server performance imo. If a character begins to move, server checks for current AP, modifies AC. AC doesnt get updated with every hex, just when the character starts to run.
Anyways this suggestion was a bit offtopic, was just another brainstorm, i dont know what effects this would have on gameplay, or would it cause huge lag. In FO2 i usually blew all my AP in the turn with either attacking or moving. Here, players would have a default +10 AC, or even +18 with jet junkies. I dont think it would be too OP tho, because average players have 150+ % in combat skills. The best solution for this would be if players had 0 AP as default, like i suggested yesterday. AP would only start to generate when players initiate an attack - but cant attack because of no AP, they need to wait. Like in RL when you shoot, you cant shoot instantly, you need to "generate AP", prepare the shot... Lift the rifle, aim down the sight, bam. This way, players would have a constant 0-5 AC bonus, because when they gathered enough AP to attack, it returns to 0, thus AC wont get modified.
ANYHOW...This is a far fetched suggestion, hard to do, maybe not even a good idea. What CAN however be done to HtH Evade is to let it increase AC for skill/12, like it should. For 120 skill thats +10 AC. 10 AG+Dodger+HtH Evade+combat leather jacket(no sneak penalty, 18 ac)=43 AC. Good against rats, not really helping against rockets...
Sneak to the rescue! Sneak may or may not be successful. If you are unarmed with silent death, you will however be seen before attacking. Double damage still applies afaik, but triggerhappy opponents can and in many cases will make swiss cheese out of the sneaking bastard.. So, like i said many times, sneak should add an AC bonus - while sneak is active.
How much would not be OP considering the average ninja would have 43 AC? Sneak/12? With 120 sneak thats 53 AC. With 240, thats 63. With 150 skill from the opponent, thats roughly 87% hit chance. Aimed eye shot however, would be very risky to pull of, so IMO that 63 AC would be just fine for a ninja.
Over time however, players would adopt to the new sneakers, with increasing skills over 200+%. Because +1 skill gives +1% hit chance, and +1 sneak/unarmed gives only -1/12% it would still be underpowevered. Keeping sneak and unarmed on the same skill level however gives an edge, because with 200+% small guns for example the player requires alot more skillpoints, then with 150-150 sneak-unarmed.
K im tired, too many words, Ombra say something..
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Dude, you can't absolutely compare a Minigun with an Hammer.
At the moment Melee are probably the weakest class of the game, even weaker than Unarmed, so it's more than fair to let them use Silent Death too. Remember that Knife is the STANDARD weapon of silent attack, and it's Melee (have you ever seen a guy sneakly go near another one and punch him in the head?).
HtH Evade is just one of many perks that need to be improved or gain use in RT (like Bonus Move).
In fact, I think Perks remake is one of the high priority changes for HtH, with Bonus HtH Damage fix and possibility to Run and attack.
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I allready pointed out what melee is missing, and for the record, my main is a melee doc, and my avatar is a frikkin sledgehammer, with an engraved sign saying "SuperSledge". Id say were on the same side, but as Lordus once said...or twice....well a few times: "Think globally"
I dont see melee as a sneaker class. Sneak has penalty with weight, armor, and most likely, weapons will have a penalty on them in the near future. I mean, its a must-have change. Melee weapons are weapons too. You could start talking to the guards in NCR that its just a harmless kitchen knife, you will die.
You said you agree that HtH needs better survivability.
I voted for unarmed: AC, melee: DR.
You cant sneak with high DR, armor has sneak penalty. I say, dont start a sneaker melee guy.
I have 15+5 bonus HtH damage on my melee dude, im quite happy with it thx. Need to confess tho that living anatomy helps greatly. Compared to unarmed, and snipers, bonus damage is almost as valuable for melee as its for minigunners, because melee weapons cost 2-3 AP. Not calculating aimed hits however, but because i have heavy handed, i gave up on crits, and set luck to 1, so now im trying to do serious damage with fast attacks, and compared to my unarmed character that has only 2 bonus damage but having mad crits, my melee dude is doing way more damage with 5 ripper slashes/turn and bonus ~7.5+5 dmg with each hit.
I bet your problem with bonus damage is that it doesnt increase min damage. But youre forgetting, that if you get higher tier weapons, those weapons have higher min damage. Just like ranged weapons. Just like everything in the game. Its not like current FA that has the SAME min heal LVL1-21, and there is NO way to increase that min value.
Melee has no problems with damage, needs DR and run and attack feature obviously, but thats it. No sneak, no AC, just good armor, high health. Only problem is the edge between ranged and close combat, because...Ranged guys can have the same armors and perks, and for that, melee needs some special skill/perk/item that is exclusive to them. Because PA is voted down, melee needs a new, exclusive perk.
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If you give me +DR and run and attack I'm more than happy :)
But don't say that Melee sneaker is innatural, because Unarmed is.
I've 15 bonus DMG and 1 LCK as well, but remember that "Bonus damage" is broken and not a bonus at all, but a +Max DMG instead, which, as I said a thousand times, need fix.
Remember also that for get 15 Bonus you need to use 3 Perks and get Heavy Handed as well, that fuck your crits... that's not a "little loss" and sure is not sufficient at the moment.
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Its working as intended. Same mechanics apply for bonus ranged damage aswell.
So if you want to add +min damage to HtH, you can count on it, that they will add +min damage to miniguns aswell. You dont want that.
Ripper: 15-47 * 5 with 10 AG/turn, no actionboy/jet. Thats 75-235. 155 average. No crits.
Sniper: 14-34 * 1 aimed shot to the eye with 10 AG/turn. No bonus damage because its useless for sniper, instead, a 3x average multiplier(guarenteed crit) with better criticals. 42-102. Im not counting instakills, because they are gay.
So, i would say melee damage is indeed working as intended.
However, these numbers dont apply to RT sadly, and wont, untill run/attack isnt implemented, and that other problem with AP regeneration doesnt get solved like i said in my other thread. Sadly, Lordus is in my way of world domination.
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You have right, but remember that Bonus Ranged DMG pay itself well (every +2 applied to bullet- 30 bullets with minigun per attack) while 3 Bonus HtH DMG repay itself very little (+15 Max DMG but one hit per attack)
Anyway, I still support the idea of +DR and Run/Hit, those are critical, If the engine support the second one. And some Perks need rework, also.
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Well...Bonus damage is just like bonus attacks, different builds benefit differently. Avenger with bonus damage is awesomesauce, but armor just destroyes its damage really.. :/
Ultimate balance would be for both perks to give a % benefit. -X % AP, +Y % damage. But that would limit character developement, because everybody would choose these perks, even snipers. Now, at least there are 2 paths to take: crits(more crit, better crit), or fast attacks(bonus damage, bonus attacks). ......Or maybe not, idunno XD
Another thing i was thinking about lately are the top tier melee weapons, the ripper and supersledge.
They both have roughly the same dps, but ripper is superior because of its armor piercing effect. But why does it have it in the first place?
Ripper is like a bread slicer, or a chainsaw right? Chainsaw+flesh=Devastating damage.
But if you want to knock over a wall, or something metal, you wont accomplish much other then destroying the chainsaw itself..
You can do it with a sledge however. It has heavy weight, so the momentum is great, maybe even greater then a bullet. Like you can protect a watermelon with kevlar against some bullets, but cant against a hammer..
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It makes a sense, definitely
Also, the Plasma Torch isn't implemented right? This thing rox ;D
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Plasma_Torch
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^^
(http://thumbnails20.imagebam.com/7105/08162d71048822.gif) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/08162d71048822)
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lolwut?
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Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.
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Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.
look again...i am not wearing a robe, there is NO name tag above robed guys head, and also, the blue text is the whisper that shows when person is dead....think about what you write beforehand?
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All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.
I agree with this, should be the main change.
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look again...i am not wearing a robe, there is NO name tag above robed guys head, and also, the blue text is the whisper that shows when person is dead....think about what you write beforehand?
First of all, I'm pretty much stoned all the time. Secondly, I've seen a bunch of people who weren't gms running around in the purple.
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Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.
Thats true, but even when we can all finally run, HtH would still suck. So the main point of these suggestions is to improve HtH after we get to run.
But as we all know, devs dont like suggestions so its all for fun ;) ... :) ........ :( ...... :'( ...... D':
Also, most of it requires Cvet love, and afaik he is over at TLA..
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How is HtH system in TLA?
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In original fallout games, you have some perks that can make you a specific HtH fighter (Silent Death=assassin, HtH evade=pure unarmed). So based in that pseudo classes i have some suggestions for this game that can make HtH builds more interesting.
Assassin build:
(supported in fallouts games by Silent death perk)
Perks:
Backstabber: any melee attack made in the back with small melee weapons (knifes,ripper) has a +5% critical chance and 15% more critical factor.
req: lvl 15 80% melee. suggested pic:
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/1/12/BETRAY.gif)
Silent Death: melee attacks dont remove the sneaking status, but reduces your sneak at half (until the combat cooldown its over)
req: lvl 21 110% sneak, 110% melee or unarmed.
Like I suggest I the sneak thread, this effect (reduction of sneak but dont lose the status) also applies when you are hited sneaking.
Berserker build:
small support by original fallout games: adrenaline rush (useless perk), and die hard in FT.
New Trait:
-Berserker: when hp are below 40% you enter in a blind rage and you can ignore the pain, you gain +10% DR*, +2 DT and -2PE /as downside any healing made on you heals only 50%, and doctors checks has a penalty of 40% .
*optional:+5% DR and ignore crippling.
Perks:
-Adrenaline Rush: +3 melee dmg and +1AP when hp are below 40%.
2 ranks, req: lvl 15 EN: >5 ST >5
Karate-unarmed build:
Maybe a special quest in san fran to train with Lo Pan or Dragon (a player can only train with one of both) and gain some special unarmed attack (punch or kick) or some bonus.
Perks:
Smashing hands: when you hit a target with unarmed weapons, he will have a -15% DR.
HtH evade: need to be reworked to be useful (and need to work), but I think AC need to be reworked first:http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4592.0 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4592.0)
Other suggestion:
Bonus HtH damage should add +3 melee dmg but only 2 ranks (Its a great sacrifice use 3 perks for +6 in max dmg)
and also can add +2 dmg for thowing weapons (not grenades).
This are suggestions for new perks/traits based on builds, that doesn’t mean that there will be classes like other RPGs. You can combine any of the suggested aspects to make the build that you want (Berserker unarmed, unarmed assassin, etc).
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This is madness. HtH is troll skill for bluesuits - it should never become more powerfull then guns and armors. Sneak (invisiblity) for blesuits is also wrong. What is worse then troll? Invisible troll.
*optional:+5% DR and ignore crippling.
unstoppable bleusuit HtH troll? No.
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This is madness. HtH is troll skill for bluesuits - it should never become more powerfull then guns and armors. Sneak (invisiblity) for blesuits is also wrong. What is worse then troll? Invisible troll.
unstoppable bleusuit HtH troll? No.
What about Melee? I can totally agree about Unarmed, yes, you don't need anything to hit someone into eyes in town, then die, then come again and do it again and again just to blind/cripple people for nothing and even kill them with eye-crits.
But Melee weapon is a weapon, so it can be boosted. Unarmed should be left as it is now.
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This is madness.
Madness?... THIS IS SPARTA!!
(Sorry, i cant ressist)
Sneak (invisiblity) for blesuits is also wrong. What is worse then troll? Invisible troll.
Invisibile bigguners is much worst.
i dont want invisibility back, the actual sneak sistem seems fine. What is the point of sneak? get close to an enemy without been seeing, i think melee needs this to have a chance. if you dont like that bluesuit use it, well you can add a penalty to sneak with bluesuit, but they get a jacket and its the same.
HtH is troll skill for bluesuits - it should never become more powerfull then guns and armors.
I dont trying to make melee more powerful than gunners. (anyway, a ripper has to be better than a 10mm) I trying to add some balance and some point in melee builds.
To avoid bluesuit trolling unarmed need to be reworked. an unarmed char can do much dmg without any equipment. so nerf the dmg and criticals without weapons and make it only effective (in PvP) with power fist.
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Berserker build
THATS IT! OFC! Adrenaline rush is the key.
HP under 50%, you go into a rage giving you + 30 DR, - 2 PE. Like when taking a psycho.
While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed.
Requirements should reflect an average melee build with 8-10 STR, and ~90% melee. If you lose perception it would be useless for long range combat anyway..
Trait is not such a good idea tho imo
Edit:
Other comments:
Dont support the backstabber tbh, silent death does the same, and if melee could have at least ONE but valid route to take, that is DR, i think we should stick with that..
Dont support smashing hands either tbh, secondary attacks in unarmed does that allready by default :/
But yeah, HtH evade is a MUST, its just a matter of time before it gets implemented tho..
At first i supported the reworked AC thing, but then realized the problems: If AC would give a - % of hit chance, rather then a -% to enemy skill, it would be worthless to increase a combat skill above ~120-150. I dont think that would be such a great idea, as that would mean alot of skill points in other skills aswell.. Like instead of 200 SG sniper builds, one would take 150 SG and 150 BG and he would be equally effective with both kind of weapons. It would be better to give +AC perks, items, etc, to encourage increasing combat skills aswell.
Frosti either constructive or gtfo.
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the biggest feature unarmed characters lack now is running when targeting.
Agreed.
"Only HtHrs can use Sneak" - LOL
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<Drakonis> care to explain you running eye hits with a sledge?
<%ahbobsaget> what about it?
<%ahbobsaget> its call strategy
<%ahbobsaget> :)
<Drakonis> nothing, its just it was taking you like 0.1 sec to perform eye hit from run
<Drakonis> you saying its a trained ability to run and hit from running while your enemy is running as well?
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Yes, it surely is a trained ability.
Oh right, so what is everybody's big obsession with running and hitting feature??
I personally do NOT want to play a game in godamn cruise control mode, where slaves mine shit for you, or where you can select a target and run to them , while sitting back, thats weak.
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range 2 must give you enough time but range 1 doesn't. They are immediately out of range so you need to click them and click their eye in the time it takes them to click anywhere. You need them to stop to shoot and even then they get the first hit. No one slowly walks after a guy running with a gun to hit him.
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<Drakonis> care to explain you running eye hits with a sledge?
<%ahbobsaget> what about it?
<%ahbobsaget> its call strategy
<%ahbobsaget> :)
<Drakonis> nothing, its just it was taking you like 0.1 sec to perform eye hit from run
<Drakonis> you saying its a trained ability to run and hit from running while your enemy is running as well?
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Yes, it surely is a trained ability.
Oh right, so what is everybody's big obsession with running and hitting feature??
I personally do NOT want to play a game in godamn cruise control mode, where slaves mine shit for you, or where you can select a target and run to them , while sitting back, thats weak.
Our obsession is, that:
In RT, shift+click next to target, select aimed shot, target opponent, drag window to corner to see, click on eyes upon reaching destination, OR if target moves, press esc, shift+click click click follow target untill he stops, click next to him, select aimed shot, PRAY THAT HE DOESNT MOVE, and pull off an eye shot is uncool when ranged has instant shots.
But yeah, as Roachor said, i have a supersledge too, so its easy mode for me, to hell with run+attack, i want to play hardcore
Ill just disable autorun in wow too when im playing PvP with my warrior because its 1337.
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I don't want to hear complete bullshit: run and hit is not a trained ability, 'cause every decent gunners can run away from you and escape if losing or kill you without let you escape if winning.
LiL Jesus and Frosti, as already said, be constructive or GTFO my thread.
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AGH!
ANSWERING OBJECTIVELY SUCKS!
Well... I can say:
Only HtHrs can use Sneak: it will be usable as a combat skill only by HtH fighters; it's more realistic (like ninjas and assassins) and it will improve HtH classes removing unrealistic use of Sneak ("big gunner predator" for example). Maybe devs can do this making Sneak unusable and auto-remove when you have any non-melee/unarmed weapon in one slot (it check both active and secondary slot).
I don't agree with this, it limits the expansion of the craft system for silenced weaponry and a buncha neat stuff. Also in near future we might have gauss rifles, and a projectile that floats in a vacuum chamber and is pulled by electromagnets is quite a bit unlikely to emmit sound since it has no ignition and it leaves the barrell with controlled pressure changes, unless we talkin' breaking sound barriers or stuff. Uh. Nevermind that.
You say backstabbing while effectively sneaking is hard with the way perception works at the time. I think we could: Make Silent Running an intrinsical perk of the 100-150% sneak level. Make hexes of the backside less perceptive and especially susceptible to sneak, AND add a *little* (5) damage bonus to >melee< sneak attacks even when one has already been sighted. You know? A ninja still stabs harder independently of either you see him or not. A bullet will always be a bullet.
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AGH!
ANSWERING OBJECTIVELY SUCKS!
Well... I can say:
Only HtHrs can use Sneak: it will be usable as a combat skill only by HtH fighters; it's more realistic (like ninjas and assassins) and it will improve HtH classes removing unrealistic use of Sneak ("big gunner predator" for example). Maybe devs can do this making Sneak unusable and auto-remove when you have any non-melee/unarmed weapon in one slot (it check both active and secondary slot).
I don't agree with this, it limits the expansion of the craft system for silenced weaponry and a buncha neat stuff. Also in near future we might have gauss rifles, and a projectile that floats in a vacuum chamber and is pulled by electromagnets is quite a bit unlikely to emmit sound since it has no ignition and it leaves the barrell with controlled pressure changes, unless we talkin' breaking sound barriers or stuff. Uh. Nevermind that.
You say backstabbing while effectively sneaking is hard with the way perception works at the time. I think we could: Make Silent Running an intrinsical perk of the 100-150% sneak level. Make hexes of the backside less perceptive and especially susceptible to sneak, AND add a *little* (5) damage bonus to >melee< sneak attacks even when one has already been sighted. You know? A ninja still stabs harder independently of either you see him or not. A bullet will always be a bullet.
http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=080201-railgun (http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=080201-railgun)
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AGH!
ANSWERING OBJECTIVELY SUCKS!
Well... I can say:
Only HtHrs can use Sneak: it will be usable as a combat skill only by HtH fighters; it's more realistic (like ninjas and assassins) and it will improve HtH classes removing unrealistic use of Sneak ("big gunner predator" for example). Maybe devs can do this making Sneak unusable and auto-remove when you have any non-melee/unarmed weapon in one slot (it check both active and secondary slot).
I don't agree with this, it limits the expansion of the craft system for silenced weaponry and a buncha neat stuff. Also in near future we might have gauss rifles, and a projectile that floats in a vacuum chamber and is pulled by electromagnets is quite a bit unlikely to emmit sound since it has no ignition and it leaves the barrell with controlled pressure changes, unless we talkin' breaking sound barriers or stuff. Uh. Nevermind that.
You say backstabbing while effectively sneaking is hard with the way perception works at the time. I think we could: Make Silent Running an intrinsical perk of the 100-150% sneak level. Make hexes of the backside less perceptive and especially susceptible to sneak, AND add a *little* (5) damage bonus to >melee< sneak attacks even when one has already been sighted. You know? A ninja still stabs harder independently of either you see him or not. A bullet will always be a bullet.
You'll never get Gauss craftable, at least devs said so.
Sneak is actually weak for an HtH player because of the 3 hexes limit, your only hope is to run as hell and be fast as hell to click on the enemy (and you need even more time if you want to do a target shot and remember you need also to be on the back of enemy) to achieve a good "Silent Death" hit. After that he will simply escape and you can't caught him if he don't get knockback in the hit.
To be effective for HtH, Sneak need do rework limit of 3 hexes and make more susceptible to Sneak and enemy's PER.
Or this will be the usual advantage for gunners and useless option for HtHs.
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http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=080201-railgun (http://www.livescience.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=080201-railgun)
Nice comeback! I don't understand where did the fire come from D: Is that projectiled loaded with anything?
I could not understand most of what Ombra said. Could you please clarify and expand?
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Nice comeback! I don't understand where did the fire come from D: Is that projectiled loaded with anything?
I could not understand most of what Ombra said. Could you please clarify and expand?
Basically the round goes so fast the friction with the air ignites the oxygen and leaves a huge trail of fire behind the pellet.
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Lol you better remove that comment quickly...XD
Oxygen cannot ignite.
What you saw there isnt flame, but plasma, but not the the fallouty type obviously.
This is offtopic :P
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Lol you better remove that comment quickly...XD
Oxygen cannot ignite.
What you saw there isnt flame, but plasma, but not the the fallouty type obviously.
This is offtopic :P
Whatever you get my point, the plasma is created by the friction with the air. At 7 times the speed of sound I assume it would be very loud.
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Then are we sayin' the speed of a Gauss is lower than the speed of sound? D: We're getting geeky, yes. But, within thyselves, y'all know, THAT IS GODDAMN SEXY. If we can work a slutty solution to a fictional gun, we we'll be AWESOME. I'm not suggesting anything, but a topic on it would be nice *hint-hint, wink-wink, nudge-nudge*.
BACK TO THEM MELEE DUDES.
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Then are we sayin' the speed of a Gauss is lower than the speed of sound? D: We're getting geeky, yes. But, within thyselves, y'all know, THAT IS GODDAMN SEXY. If we can work a slutty solution to a fictional gun, we we'll be AWESOME. I'm not suggesting anything, but a topic on it would be nice *hint-hint, wink-wink, nudge-nudge*.
BACK TO THEM MELEE DUDES.
Well it would be loud but you'd be dead before you ever heard it
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Then my favourite rifle would be taken out from them stealthy weapons! Damn! Guess you can't haveth all.
:3 I put my hope on my previous idea of a silencer crafting upgrade. For subsonic guns only, ofc.
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Be pretty hard to remain stealthy after the huge explosion with the trail of fire leading back to you. Did you read the article along the vid? 1 shot every 10 sconds with a bigger blast than a tomahawk using just a metal bullet.
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Would they change the predominant concept for the weapon in the series? I didn't like Fo3, but even there, a Gauss rifle is portrayed as a top of the tops stealthy sniper weapon.
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I like how my thread on Fonlone HtH is now a thread on RL new weapons technology.
I could not understand most of what Ombra said. Could you please clarify and expand?
Dunno what you don't understand but let's try again:
Silent Death is poor use. Why?
Because enemies automatically spot you 3 hexes away from them. Also you should be on the back of the enemy.
That means just one thing: you must run damn fast towards them (1 or 2 hexes away) and be damn fast to hit them (that means it's impossible to do a targeted shot if enemy isn't sleeping or afk) and also stay on his BACK. All of this approx. in 2 secs. And they have to be stationary and don't spot you before the 3 hexes limit or it's even worse.
Even if you are able to hit him and store a good critical, you have to hope to knockdown him or cripple his legs or he will simply escape from you and you can't do a shit while he's running.
Fair enough, huh?
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That and my char usually crits for about 30-full hp, and the 30% i lose from not hitting eyes seems to be worse than the extra 10 dmg i seem to get from silent death.
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If there is no combat, its easy to surprise an unsuspecting opponent, you can tag him on the way to him(first shift+click the hex behind him, then on the way open up the aimed shot window)
Assuming ofc you have silent running but...nvm.
IF you knock him out or at least down, or knock the weapon out of his hands, then you have a decent chance of survival, but theres that big IF :/ Crits are easy with secondary attacks, but if you dont knock him down/out with that hit that just effectively nullified your entire ap pool, your pretty much dead. This is exactly why i rerolled my character, to get better criticals..
This is why i suggested the -EN thing with secondary attacks, to give that little edge over normal snipers so unarmed could be a disarm/crippler. I mean thats the way to go right? Instant kills with unarmed is just harsh... Keeping the opponent on the ground stunning him, breaking all legs and arms putting him out of battle untill a mate helps him, i think that should be the role of unarmed sneakers.
Assuming attacking from behind(because of silent death) on head with secondary attack:
http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables
21-45 Damage x 2.0
Ignores armor
Roll EN, or get knocked out
46-70 Damage x 2.5
Ignores armor
Roll EN with -3 penalty, or get knocked out
71-90 Damage x 2.5
Ignores armor
knockdown
Roll EN with -3 penalty, or get knocked out
This is the main problem imo.
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The problem is they just run away, so you'd need to crit the eyes and insta kill quick or try crippling the legs and hope they don't have a weapon which is pretty stupid to try. You can cripple their arms and make them drop the weapon but most likely they just run away at that point.
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I see you people know how a HtH's life is.
I hope someone will notice this huge thread in suggestion, even if I have few hope.
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I admit, I have not read all the nine pages concerning how good/bad Unarmed is right now. But I have seen some very good Unarmed builds, and they can be awesome in PvE, and even in PvP in close-combat on rare occasion.
What I think is the most important thing is to let people run to targets. If you can get 1 hex away from a running person and then quickly be able to click their eyes before they get even 2 hexes away from you, good for you, and good for the aim-bots (not that I am accusing anyone), but the majority of people don't have "skill", if you can even call it that. I mean, sure, reaction is important to a game, but it shouldn't be the thing that determines if an HtH build can work in real-time.
I think the best thing to do right now is to wait until some day, hopefully, when the mechanics can be changed so that Unarmed builds can run up to players. Then, we can decide if it needs to be more powerful or even less powerful.
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The ai can run up to you and do an aimed shot the very second they are adjacent to you, it'd bs that you can't.
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It seems like adding hot keys for aiming at different body parts might make it a lot easier to do HtH and Melee aimed shots right after running. Perhaps on the numberpad? You already have a hotkey for attacking, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
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This could be a solution, but can be a little confusing...
Double click for run, press A, maybe he got too far away, so right-click for switch hit/run mode, then double click again for run, then A, then press the number...
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It seems like adding hot keys for aiming at different body parts might make it a lot easier to do HtH and Melee aimed shots right after running. Perhaps on the numberpad? You already have a hotkey for attacking, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4616.msg41911#msg41911
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well in Fallout,you have the options to tell you:allways run(press shift tp walk)if you can select that than you may be run and hiting,nut walk and hitting,no?
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hehe....comedy