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Author Topic: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes  (Read 35936 times)

FischiPiSti

  • frikkin' SledgeHammer
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2010, 01:14:29 am »

Hehe, youre right, but imo silent death should remain an unarmed perk because sneaking with a frikkin sledgehammer is wrong :D
Just like sneaking with minigun...

Other subject: HtH Evade needs implementing very fastlike if we want unarmed to have reasonable AC.
So yeah, bonus AC at end of turns dont work for obvious reasons. Or can it?
The engine needs some support about this, but what about a RT AC bonus system that doesnt add AC at end of the turn, but modify AC with every action made? In RT when you are generating AP, thats like waiting for your turn right? So its plausable imo.
You are standing still in NCR with 10 agility, that gives a bonus AC of +10(+20 with hth evade) Punch someone, you have 7 AP, +7 AC. AC should be modified only when you are doing actions, not when your AP is changed. This means, that you dont get AC modified after each AP regenerated, because that would have a serious impact on server performance imo. If a character begins to move, server checks for current AP, modifies AC. AC doesnt get updated with every hex, just when the character starts to run.

Anyways this suggestion was a bit offtopic, was just another brainstorm, i dont know what effects this would have on gameplay, or would it cause huge lag. In FO2 i usually blew all my AP in the turn with either attacking or moving. Here, players would have a default +10 AC, or even +18 with jet junkies. I dont think it would be too OP tho, because average players have 150+ % in combat skills. The best solution for this would be if players had 0 AP as default, like i suggested yesterday. AP would only start to generate when players initiate an attack - but cant attack because of no AP, they need to wait. Like in RL when you shoot, you cant shoot instantly, you need to "generate AP", prepare the shot... Lift the rifle, aim down the sight, bam. This way, players would have a constant 0-5 AC bonus, because when they gathered enough AP to attack, it returns to 0, thus AC wont get modified.

ANYHOW...This is a far fetched suggestion, hard to do, maybe not even a good idea. What CAN however be done to HtH Evade is to let it increase AC for skill/12, like it should. For 120 skill thats +10 AC. 10 AG+Dodger+HtH Evade+combat leather jacket(no sneak penalty, 18 ac)=43 AC. Good against rats, not really helping against rockets...
Sneak to the rescue! Sneak may or may not be successful. If you are unarmed with silent death, you will however be seen before attacking. Double damage still applies afaik, but triggerhappy opponents can and in many cases will make swiss cheese out of the sneaking bastard.. So, like i said many times, sneak should add an AC bonus - while sneak is active.
How much would not be OP considering the average ninja would have 43 AC? Sneak/12? With 120 sneak thats 53 AC. With 240, thats 63. With 150 skill from the opponent, thats roughly 87% hit chance. Aimed eye shot however, would be very risky to pull of, so IMO that 63 AC would be just fine for a ninja.
Over time however, players would adopt to the new sneakers, with increasing skills over 200+%. Because +1 skill gives +1% hit chance, and +1 sneak/unarmed gives only -1/12% it would still be underpowevered. Keeping sneak and unarmed on the same skill level however gives an edge, because with 200+% small guns for example the player requires alot more skillpoints, then with 150-150 sneak-unarmed.

K im tired, too many words, Ombra say something..
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 02:18:28 am by FischiPiSti »
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Troll.
HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2010, 06:00:20 pm »

Dude, you can't absolutely compare a Minigun with an Hammer.
At the moment Melee are probably the weakest class of the game, even weaker than Unarmed, so it's more than fair to let them use Silent Death too. Remember that Knife is the STANDARD weapon of silent attack, and it's Melee (have you ever seen a guy sneakly go near another one and punch him in the head?).

HtH Evade is just one of many perks that need to be improved or gain use in RT (like Bonus Move).

In fact, I think Perks remake is one of the high priority changes for HtH, with Bonus HtH Damage fix and possibility to Run and attack.

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FischiPiSti

  • frikkin' SledgeHammer
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2010, 09:33:07 pm »

I allready pointed out what melee is missing, and for the record, my main is a melee doc, and my avatar is a frikkin sledgehammer, with an engraved sign saying "SuperSledge". Id say were on the same side, but as Lordus once said...or twice....well a few times: "Think globally"

I dont see melee as a sneaker class. Sneak has penalty with weight, armor, and most likely, weapons will have a penalty on them in the near future. I mean, its a must-have change. Melee weapons are weapons too. You could start talking to the guards in NCR that its just a harmless kitchen knife, you will die.

You said you agree that HtH needs better survivability.
I voted for unarmed: AC, melee: DR.
You cant sneak with high DR, armor has sneak penalty. I say, dont start a sneaker melee guy.

I have 15+5 bonus HtH damage on my melee dude, im quite happy with it thx. Need to confess tho that living anatomy helps greatly. Compared to unarmed, and snipers, bonus damage is almost as valuable for melee as its for minigunners, because melee weapons cost 2-3 AP. Not calculating aimed hits however, but because i have heavy handed, i gave up on crits, and set luck to 1, so now im trying to do serious damage with fast attacks, and compared to my unarmed character that has only 2 bonus damage but having mad crits, my melee dude is doing way more damage with 5 ripper slashes/turn and bonus ~7.5+5 dmg with each hit.
I bet your problem with bonus damage is that it doesnt increase min damage. But youre forgetting, that if you get higher tier weapons, those weapons have higher min damage. Just like ranged weapons. Just like everything in the game. Its not like current FA that has the SAME min heal LVL1-21, and there is NO way to increase that min value.

Melee has no problems with damage, needs DR and run and attack feature obviously, but thats it. No sneak, no AC, just good armor, high health. Only problem is the edge between ranged and close combat, because...Ranged guys can have the same armors and perks, and for that, melee needs some special skill/perk/item that is exclusive to them. Because PA is voted down, melee needs a new, exclusive perk.
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Troll.
HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2010, 10:10:42 pm »

If you give me +DR and run and attack I'm more than happy  :)
But don't say that Melee sneaker is innatural, because Unarmed is.

I've 15 bonus DMG and 1 LCK as well, but remember that "Bonus damage" is broken and not a bonus at all, but a +Max DMG instead, which, as I said a thousand times, need fix.

Remember also that for get 15 Bonus you need to use 3 Perks and get Heavy Handed as well, that fuck your crits... that's not a "little loss" and sure is not sufficient at the moment.
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FischiPiSti

  • frikkin' SledgeHammer
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #94 on: May 10, 2010, 11:06:36 pm »

Its working as intended. Same mechanics apply for bonus ranged damage aswell.
So if you want to add +min damage to HtH, you can count on it, that they will add +min damage to miniguns aswell. You dont want that.

Ripper: 15-47 * 5 with 10 AG/turn, no actionboy/jet. Thats 75-235. 155 average. No crits.
Sniper: 14-34 * 1 aimed shot to the eye with 10 AG/turn. No bonus damage because its useless for sniper, instead, a 3x average multiplier(guarenteed crit) with better criticals. 42-102. Im not counting instakills, because they are gay.

So, i would say melee damage is indeed working as intended.

However, these numbers dont apply to RT sadly, and wont, untill run/attack isnt implemented, and that other problem with AP regeneration doesnt get solved like i said in my other thread. Sadly, Lordus is in my way of world domination.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 11:12:55 pm by FischiPiSti »
Logged
Troll.
HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2010, 11:37:11 pm »

You have right, but remember that Bonus Ranged DMG pay itself well (every +2 applied to bullet- 30 bullets with minigun per attack) while 3 Bonus HtH DMG repay itself very little (+15 Max DMG but one hit per attack)

Anyway, I still support the idea of +DR and Run/Hit, those are critical, If the engine support the second one. And some Perks need rework, also.
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FischiPiSti

  • frikkin' SledgeHammer
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2010, 01:32:51 pm »

Well...Bonus damage is just like bonus attacks, different builds benefit differently. Avenger with bonus damage is awesomesauce, but armor just destroyes its damage really.. :/
Ultimate balance would be for both perks to give a % benefit. -X % AP, +Y % damage. But that would limit character developement, because everybody would choose these perks, even snipers. Now, at least there are 2 paths to take: crits(more crit, better crit), or fast attacks(bonus damage, bonus attacks). ......Or maybe not, idunno XD

Another thing i was thinking about lately are the top tier melee weapons, the ripper and supersledge.
They both have roughly the same dps, but ripper is superior because of its armor piercing effect. But why does it have it in the first place?
Ripper is like a bread slicer, or a chainsaw right? Chainsaw+flesh=Devastating damage.
But if you want to knock over a wall, or something metal, you wont accomplish much other then destroying the chainsaw itself..
You can do it with a sledge however. It has heavy weight, so the momentum is great, maybe even greater then a bullet. Like you can protect a watermelon with kevlar against some bullets, but cant against a hammer..
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 01:59:31 pm by FischiPiSti »
Logged
Troll.
HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2010, 03:40:37 pm »

It makes a sense, definitely

Also, the Plasma Torch isn't implemented right? This thing rox  ;D
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Plasma_Torch
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2010, 02:12:18 am »

^^
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2010, 04:46:36 pm »

lolwut?
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2010, 10:17:58 pm »

Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2010, 04:13:10 am »

Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.

look again...i am not wearing a robe, there is NO name tag above robed guys head, and also, the blue text is the whisper that shows when person is dead....think about what you write beforehand?
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2010, 06:16:31 pm »

All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.

I agree with this, should be the main change.
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Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2010, 12:06:00 am »

look again...i am not wearing a robe, there is NO name tag above robed guys head, and also, the blue text is the whisper that shows when person is dead....think about what you write beforehand?

First of all, I'm pretty much stoned all the time. Secondly, I've seen a bunch of people who weren't gms running around in the purple.
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FischiPiSti

  • frikkin' SledgeHammer
  • Offline
Re: Revaluate Melee/Unarmed classes
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2010, 02:19:06 am »

Where is everyone getting these robes? All these suggestions don't really change the fact that until you can run to an aimed shot hth is mostly pointless.

Thats true, but even when we can all finally run, HtH would still suck. So the main point of these suggestions is to improve HtH after we get to run.
But as we all know, devs dont like suggestions so its all for fun ;) ... :) ........ :( ......  :'( ...... D':
Also, most of it requires Cvet love, and afaik he is over at TLA..
Logged
Troll.
HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
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