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[Sius]

Yup, I agree with quite everything you said. It could also be exported to firearms with, again, special trainers, and you could only being taught by one in your entire life. It wouldn't be that complicated, I think. For example, one trainer could teach you how to do aimed shots with long range rifles (Sniper profession), another to burst with SMGs or P90C, another to widen range and to do more damage with grenades, etc, etc...

Well problem is if these abilities should be active. Because I think making them all only passive is also somehow flat  . But on the other hand if we should be able to use some abilities only when they are "charged" so trigger them, profit from their effect, wait until they regenerate then it might be tricky to get ingame. Such active abilities would be really nightmare to implement if you want to keep "good old Fallout" feeling untouched. I sense some WoW comments coming...

[Izual]

It should be very simple to implement, and still an "active" skill. Like having a rifle that can't do aim shots first (as if it had no scope) and then (when you're trained) as if you had actually a rifle with a scope. Aim shots option would be available. Hm, don't know if it would work.

[Sius]

Well but then again think about special attacks f.e. in HtH combat. Blind (sand in eyes) or fast sprint toward your enemy should definitely be limited with something more than just APs and "scroll" through special attacks in by clicking on weapon slot would be disaster when you have more than 2 skills. Its already pain in the ass with HtH to choose that right action in real time. I mean you have punch/kick and both also aimed. Those are only 4 different kinds of attack and its a mess already.

[avv]

It would be cool if unarmed fighters fought gunmen rambo style. Lurking in shadows and cutting throaths from behind. Think of predator, or hell any movie where some evil villain takes out gunmen with bare hands or meathook. Charging right into caws burst by relying on your super duper reflexes, hitpoints and dr shouldn't be an option how unarmed man would fight.

But power armored guys could just charge into the fray with super sledge and smash everybody across the wasteland.

[vedaras]

dudes all that hth needs now is an ability to run when you are attacking target, and you are talking about "sand in eyes", get serious...

[Sius]

dudes all that hth needs now is an ability to run when you are attacking target, and you are talking about "sand in eyes", get serious...

We are sorry that we have visions and dreams. From now on we will post only the most simple and quickest suggestions. So it will be cool with vedaras. M'kay?

[Mars Sultan]

Get a load of this guy, he still has visions and dreams!

[FischiPiSti]

Ive given up on suggestions because most people here dont want FOnline to be turned into a "wow"-like MMORPG. In their eyes, HtH is inferior, because a gun wins vs a martial artist IRL.
So instead, ive summarized my thoughts on the issue in my sig.

...Ok a bit more....
HtH needs better survivability, not damage.
As default i treat unarmed to be paired with sneak, because... NINJAS!!!! *cough* So the idea is that sneak should be only usable by unarmed(sneak penalty for weapons in active hands just like high lvl armor)
My unarmed char with 10 luck is an awesome crippler. Not good damage, i break a pigrats both legs before he dies, and thats a good thing. Like some of you mentioned, unarmed should be a disarming/crippling menace, but certainly not an instakiller. So damage wise, i think unarmed is OK.
IMO sneak should work like HtH evade does/would: Give an AC bonus of sneak skill/X to AC while the character is sneaking. You cant know if an enemy is actually seeing you and starting an attack, or he just ignores you or whatever. Sudden death while sneaking even with high sneak is unpleasent this way... Dodgeing an attack should not break sneak. Sneak should have a CD(like the FA formula), but should be used while players can see you and in TB. The 3 hex rule should not be applied while behind the character.

What about melee then? Fastshot. Please. Its a must. Other then that: If sneak has a penalty with melee weapons - and it should(i mean really: sneak with a minigun, or a sledgehammer? No.), then melee needs other survivability. Melee will allways be primary targets, because unarmed are sneaking bastards. They are the ones that soak up the most damage in theory, so either you accept it or not, they ARE the tank class in the game, just like everywhere else. Currently fights end very fast, and melee chars are very rare(because they suck at pvp), thats why it doesnt apply yet. So to compensate that, they need DR/hp. Toughness and lifegiver is open to everybody, but adrenaline rush is still open(because its useless). What would be the best tho game and balance wise -but noone wants to hear this, because everybody want them badly- is to simply give the tanks some armor, PA. Thus limited damage, no crippling utility like unarmed with its high critchance attacks, BUT could soak up a decent amount of damage. See PA thread for details. Im repeating myself, im a troll afterall, but i have yet to hear a valid counter-argument, other then "its silly" and "everybody should get PA".

[Sius]

How do you want to make differences between certain classes other than their abilities and skills? Right now everyone can get everything so if you would introduce something to boost HtH combat then even BG can reach for it and mix his build with it and then kick ass even more. Simply something like "class perks" would help here. But there again 21 levels does not provide enough space for char development. I've taken it even further and I suggested active/passive abilities (and those passive ones could get implemented without anyone whining about wow style, they just need restrictions so you can get them ONLY when you choose certain path so you will be somehow limited a bit so you can't create super builds etc.). You've suggested balancing based on items/armors if I get it right. Thats imho not that bright solution.

[Colombo]

Special trainer giving bonus? You will need high unarmed/melee skill and he will give you bonus equal to your skill?
eg. you will need 160 unarmed (and sneak?) to be trained and you will get AC bonus equal to some probably linear function of sneak and unarmed?
That could be special profesion with master in San Francisco and some lower masters each around world in gangs...

[Sius]

Special trainer giving bonus? You will need high unarmed/melee skill and he will give you bonus equal to your skill?
eg. you will need 160 unarmed (and sneak?) to be trained and you will get AC bonus equal to some probably linear function of sneak and unarmed?
That could be special profesion with master in San Francisco and some lower masters each around world in gangs...

Restrictions for these additional abilities like higher AC while using sneak or such should not rely only on skillpoints. Maybe it get balanced after all but its still easy to raise additional skill up to 160 with some PvP powerbuilds. I think tree structure for such abilities is just best way to go. You have to take few low lvl abilities first in order to unlock higher and more effective ones. That means if someone other like big gunner would like to reach for those better abilities in HtH branch in offense/defense tree then he will have to sacrifice his abilities from BG branch. So no ultimate builds possible here therefore I think its easiest way how to balance stuff like this. If its only about skillpoints and stats then it seems more abuseable to me.

[Colombo]

Maybe logaritmic function from unarmed and sneak.
So to make it realy big efect and nearly unhitable (altrough one lucky shot and unarmed character would be dead..) player have to take unarmed and sneak (and have high of those two). With some SPECIAL restriction.

Yeah, BG could take them, but he would have mutch lower BG skill, no outdoor or FA and he would need quite big inteligence, because of logaritmic effect of those bonus. That would allow to make new kinds of build, sneaky SG etc.

But what with melee? They need armor to survive and weapon to make damage.

[Ombra]

Many people with many different ideas, but one thing is clear: HtH needs improve.

Honestly, I don't care about who say "Oh c'mon, HtH is the ****, firearms is superior!"
Those people never really played Fallout 1/2. I used to have melee chars who kick a$$ to anyone, from deathclaw to Enclave warriors with big and bad guns.

As Fischi said, we need to improve the survivability of HtH fighters, not the damage.
You can do this in various ways. When I think about melee/unarmed players, some standard models come in my mind:

• The "Martial Artists": who use is body as a lethal weapon. He should have dodge increased. If the system consent it, it would be cool to have increased chance to cripple limbs.
• The "Ninja": lurks and kills from shadow. If Sneak system works well, it should be a character able to strike with killing force from hidden status, as well as have increased critical hit chance.
• The "Swashbuckler": a perfect and brute tank. It should have boosted HP and/or increased DR-DT.

I'm not trying to convert FOnline in a fantasy-class game, that's are just "types" for ispiration and improvement.

[Badger]

I'm not trying to convert FOnline in a fantasy-class game, that's are just "types" for ispiration and improvement.

I think that's what we need. No strict classes, but gearing perks to encourage certain playstyles. Just going through and trying to come up with a few character archetypes, rather than everyone taking Lifegiver and More Crits.

[Ombra]

Agree.

The target is find a good balance between "everywhere with same perks" and "game with strict classes".

One thing we have to understand is that a MMO game should be oriented in variety (maybe adding more requirement to perks or changing/making specialization perks) or we get the same clone over and over again.