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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: avv on November 25, 2012, 06:12:16 pm
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Fastrelog and new respawn timer have caused an issue called bluesuit spamming. If you carry nothing, you got no fear of death. Players simply aim towards points of interest and keep coming back in bluesuit.
I suggest that the price of everyone's life is 100 caps and it works like this:
Once you respawn, you wake up in some caravan camp or children of apocalypse field hospital. There's a dialog that goes like this:
Them: "We found you half dead and tended you with the best of our abilities"
You: "Wow, thanks! I'll be going now"
Them: "What you think this is all for free? Start shoveling!"
Then you have to shovel shit for 100 caps OR pay them with a check if you have a bank account.This money is then transferred to your killer's bank account. If he has no bank account, once he starts one the moneys are instantly transferred there. Any excess is transferred to your own bank account.
None of this makes any sense but it does what it's supposed to do: give your life a price. So stop coming in bluesuit, gear up and protect yourself.
It couldn't be abused because if you killed your own alts it'd be the same as if you shoveled shit in any town.
If you yourself die while your victim's respawn timer is on, he doesn't have to pay. This is to prevent suicide bursting in safe towns, or suiciding in general. To discourage them even more, a fancy system could be developed that the burster has to pay for both - only in safe towns.
But wouldn't this encourage bluesuit hunting? Yes it would and that's great. Finally some real robbers. And furthermore, bluesuits get shot in hostile places anyway. There's no encouragement to not to shoot them, so best start making up some to encouragements for tc players to protect their city's visitors.
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Yes let's troll new players. Oh wait there aren't any because of stupid suggestions like this.
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Yes let's troll new players. Oh wait there aren't any because of stupid suggestions like this.
There are so much new players as me making new alts...
Idea is good, I would also add random body part crippled, and for another cost it could be healed.
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Yes let's troll new players. Oh wait there aren't any because of stupid suggestions like this.
True
Suggestion is not well thought of.
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I wouldn't find too amusing literally working for some asshole who killed me when I was in a town.
I would prefer to make blusuits go to random respawn.
Wearing even simple armor would be always profitable.
You don't have to waste time on some stupid job, you can just continue playing in other place.
If you want to harass the same people and same place, you would have to spend time on travel.
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Yes let's troll new players. Oh wait there aren't any because of stupid suggestions like this.
It's just 10 shits and you can make a fortune shoveling there for excess money. Besides, it compensates with the 20 seconds respawn time.
I wouldn't find too amusing literally working for some asshole who killed me when I was in a town.
What about the guys who have to mow down hordes of bluesuit scouts, looters and trolls wasting precious ammo? Or the sneak who can't resneak because some bluesuit is staring at him?
I would prefer to make blusuits go to random respawn.
From where they return with a taxi. Pro bluesuit trolls have high OD, doc and FA. This would hurt those new players even more because they spawn far away from their goal and have no OD to travel.
You don't have to waste time on some stupid job, you can just continue playing in other place.
If you want to harass the same people and same place, you would have to waste time on travel.
Wouldn't prevent fastrelogs.
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Yeah god damn those pro bluesuit trolls, they get 5 tag skills and can insta kill you from 50 hex with their mind powers. Their access to the dimensional rift clearly needs to be nerfed. Please remove these deadly bluesuits and their unicorn mercs from the game.
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One more thing.
I think players don't need any more incentives to shoot anyone.
I see no reason why should some extra money go on account of murderer.
It's just pushing FOnline more into "just pew pew everything you see" hole.
I would rather see changes that help get it out of there.
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Its good suggestion apart from the part, where the killer is rewarded for killing someone, as Jovanka mentioned.
Maybe if we notice, that 100caps is too low for certain people (they keep doing it anyway), it can go higher if you die repeatedly in small time frame.
@Roachor - its not about killing someone, but to harass - scout town, desneak sneakers, put players into combat, drain APs of the enemy, loot stuff on the ground - pure annoyance.
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worst suggestion ever.
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Sorry, but no. TLA based servers (2238 is also based on TLA but I mean servers like Requiem, TLAmk2 etc.) with paid replication are a good example of how a game should not look. If a game is too hard for a new player he will eventually leave and never come back. In the past I tried these servers and 3 min replication cooldown together with paid replications was one of the main aspects why I left for good.
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worst suggestion ever.
He is right.
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I think players don't need any more incentives to shoot anyone.
Then there has to be reasons to not to kill people on sight. Because currently there aren't anything else but maintaining reputation.
I see no reason why should some extra money go on account of murderer.
Murderer and murderer. The game revolves around loot and denying loot. If someone has nothing to lose, he doesn't fear death. This creates a chance for trolls to just spam them in locations and act retarded. It destroys immersion that points of interest are being swarmed by bluesuits.
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ha ha, BG max hp tanks scared of bluesuits, ridiculous.... Seriously, you "pro" pvpers are afraid of your own shadows.... You want devs to believe a non geared freshly spawned blusuit poses any threat to you? C'mon.......... :)
lol
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So u wont to boost fr factions? Good job! Lets make Them shovel poo So they wont be in Time to gear up So we can fr Them to death and piach Them to poo...great job! Or maby Lets make penalty to 3min fr. U fr So u Have to shovel 10poo in magic island of fr and later u can be teleported by magic rat to ur destinity
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The problem of this idea thats it easy to bypass with fast relog, and new players (there are some) will be forced to spend many times at respawn to gather the 100 caps. Also in case player base gets bigger then respawn area will turn it to a battlefield for shit shoveling, don't forget that many players prefer to put caps in base instead of banks therefore they will have to shovel and pens can get cleaned fast. Heh I dare to say there would be some player who would stay at respawn to shovel shit even if no payment is given some would do it just to make sure others can't leave respawn area.
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ha ha, BG max hp tanks scared of bluesuits, ridiculous.... Seriously, you "pro" pvpers are afraid of your own shadows.... You want devs to believe a non geared freshly spawned blusuit poses any threat to you? C'mon.......... :)
lol
It's not about geared players fearing bluesuits but bluesuits not being afraid of geared players. That leads to retarded behavior like walking straight against enemy guns, dying and coming back again without penalties. What kind of game doesn't have any penalty for death?
The problem of this idea thats it easy to bypass with fast relog, and new players (there are some) will be forced to spend many times at respawn to gather the 100 caps. Also in case player base gets bigger then respawn area will turn it to a battlefield for shit shoveling, don't forget that many players prefer to put caps in base instead of banks therefore they will have to shovel and pens can get cleaned fast. Heh I dare to say there would be some player who would stay at respawn to shovel shit even if no payment is given some would do it just to make sure others can't leave respawn area.
Bypassed with fastrelog? You still have to pay if a player kills you. Doesn't matter if you log off in the spawn area.
New players get killed by hostile npcs much more than other players.
If this feature was implemented, players would put money in banks and most of them would pay with check instead of shit shoveling meaning that there would be plenty of shit to shovel. The rate of shit could be even higher at spawns depending on players shoveling there.
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Bypassed with fastrelog? You still have to pay if a player kills you. Doesn't matter if you log off in the spawn area.
I'm sure those who will really wish to troll will prepare 10-50 lvl 1-3 character and just spam them with fast relog then simply make another wave instead of paying any fee to get out. There is no level cap on using science on items.
If this feature was implemented, players would put money in banks and most of them would pay with check instead of shit shoveling meaning that there would be plenty of shit to shovel.
Thats valid though I'm sure some would still not use banks with all his chars making getting out of respawn a task... instead of a break between fun.
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I'm sure those who will really wish to troll will prepare 10-50 lvl 1-3 character and just spam them with fast relog then simply make another wave instead of paying any fee to get out.
Sounds rather far fetched because the effort to bring a fresh bluesuit from where ever it spawns takes too long.
Sorry pal but it looks like you don't know what I'm talking about. For example in new reno there's guy with the name "Intense PVP" running around, getting killed and coming back from spawn. Doesn't exactly meet the idea of post-apo wasteland where people are supposed to fight for survival.
The problem is not the trolling that much, but to make players act like human beings rather than clowns.
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make players act like human beings rather than clowns.
That will never happen because this is a game. Players fearing for their lives? Are you serious?
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That will never happen because this is a game. Players fearing for their lives? Are you serious?
People with gear are afraid to die. Then again maybe it's too strong concept. Let's say they care about staying alive. Will you agree?
Whereas someone who has nothing to lose or give to his foes doesn't care if he is killed.
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People with gear are afraid to die. Then again maybe it's too strong concept. Let's say they care about staying alive. Will you agree?
Whereas someone who has nothing to lose or give to his foes doesn't care if he is killed.
Just because of your autistic obsession with gear doesn't mean you have to cripple the whole player base. I see people walking just fine with gear, not trembling at the mere sight of the dreaded Homo Bluesuitus which they can kill with ease. See if you have an adult nearby who can explain it to you without getting you overstimulated.
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Just because of your autistic obsession with gear doesn't mean you have to cripple the whole player base. I see people walking just fine with gear, not trembling at the mere sight of the dreaded Homo Bluesuitus which they can kill with ease. See if you have an adult nearby who can explain it to you without getting you overstimulated.
Looks like you got attached to the "fear" part too much. Let's stay on topic and talk about whether or not geared players care about staying alive more than non-geared players.
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Let's stay on topic and talk about whether or not geared players care about staying alive more than non-geared players.
Funny me, I thought the original topic was torment of players when they die.
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Funny me, I thought the original topic was torment of players when they die.
Intriguing. However you haven't answered why 100 caps isn't suitable price for each character's life. I mean if you carry gear and care about your life, some pitiful 100 caps is nothing compared to losing that gear so what's wrong with the suggestion?
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Intriguing. However you haven't answered why 100 caps isn't suitable price for each character's life. I mean if you carry gear and care about your life, some pitiful 100 caps is nothing compared to losing that gear so what's wrong with the suggestion?
It's not the caps it's the time.
Shoveling 10 shits every time you die is going to get tedious sooner or even sooner.
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Intriguing. However you haven't answered why 100 caps isn't suitable price for each character's life. I mean if you carry gear and care about your life, some pitiful 100 caps is nothing compared to losing that gear so what's wrong with the suggestion?
the part where you're asking a playerbase that prefers this as-is to the system on TLA or requiem.
I'm neutral to this idea. 100 caps even for a nub isn't really a big deal, but if it isn't a big deal how would this change any behavior aside from hurting said newbs?
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Intriguing. However you haven't answered why 100 caps isn't suitable price for each character's life. I mean if you carry gear and care about your life, some pitiful 100 caps is nothing compared to losing that gear so what's wrong with the suggestion?
Getting visited by the Grim Reaper is a sufficient price. Making players grind to be able to leave respawn just adds insult to injury.
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Avv ever consider the problem might be that you are the one who is wrong being afraid to lose gear? Gear exists to be used and lost. This isn't a post apoc survival game, just be glad people show up to reno at all.
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Avv ever consider the problem might be that you are the one who is wrong being afraid to lose gear?
Then why did HH chars stop coming after powerfist was needed?
Gear exists to be used and lost.
So players should use it, not come in bluesuit. If there was a price over bluesuit's death, players would either protect it with gear or not come at all.
This isn't a post apoc survival game
Saying it isn't doesn't overrule any points I've made.
Getting visited by the Grim Reaper is a sufficient price. Making players grind to be able to leave respawn just adds insult to injury.
It's not the caps it's the time.
Shoveling 10 shits every time you die is going to get tedious sooner or even sooner.
You have to grind anyway if you die because you lose gear. If you were in bluesuit - why were you? Why would you go in a location where you might encounter hostile players without gear to defend yourself?
Besides if you have a bank account, it'd be just one 1-2 lines in a dialog window instead of shit shoveling.
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Intriguing. However you haven't answered why 100 caps isn't suitable price for each character's life. I mean if you carry gear and care about your life, some pitiful 100 caps is nothing compared to losing that gear so what's wrong with the suggestion?
I don't agree, 100 caps is a lot. For me any gear is easier to obtain than caps. I will rather lose two or more gear sets than be forced to trade or do stupid quests for getting more caps. Sounds like another thing to annoy regular players.
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Then we can add possiblity to hand over decent weapon/armor to an NPC that will give you some sort of "get out of jail" free card. (you wont get 100 caps, but you wont have to shovel shit).
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Besides, one caravan quest can give you 10k caps. That's 100 deaths.
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Sure, sure, but i have no idea what this change would achieve.
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Besides, one caravan quest can give you 10k caps. That's 100 deaths.
In theory yes, but mostly it gives you 2-5k caps. As I said it's just another reason to grind, nothing more nothing less.
Sure, sure, but i have no idea what this change would achieve.
Exactly.
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I agree, but only for Avv, and it should be 1000 shits, since he likes idea so much....
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hello ever1 in new in forum and i see this discusion i have small idea :)
first of all if there will be need 100 caps to get out from hospital camp i will quit this game im normal player not pvpr... many times people trolled me in ncr just for fun and i need to shoveling shit all the time they kill me ? and this option with murdering people and geting caps... if this will happens i will pk everone i see and i will be rich in short time easy way to make caps from players and i will be hated be all server = zero social game just kill everone like in fps games
i have idea with your TC games... most in rpg games there is something like "item level" and player cant go into battleground if he dont have enough item level... so for example TC starts and there is show timer ect so in this time players who dont have any gear cant go into town or have low item level like "Leather Jacket , Leather Armor or Robe ect ect" becouse this gear is really easy to get and will not solve the problem
so for example lets say to get into TC-town you need to get 100 item level points
lets do a small list of item levels
Robe - 0 IL
Leather Jacket - 25 IL
Combat Leather Jacket - 75 IL
Leather Armor - 25 IL
Leather Armor Helmet -10 IL
Leather Armor Mark II - 75 IL
Combat Armor - 100 IL
Minigun - 100 IL
Flamer - 75 IL
10mm Pistol - 50 IL
9mm Mauser - 50 IL
ect ect ect all armors and weapons
so when city is under atack all players who wanna enter will see this map first only with view
(http://imageshack.us/a/img688/2950/tcmap.jpg)
and then he will see something like this
(http://imageshack.us/a/img96/6412/tcitemlevel.jpg)
and what are conditions to join the TC
(http://imageshack.us/a/img196/3066/itemlevel.jpg)
if he dont have enough item level game will simple answer him "you cannot enter to city becouse you dont have enoguh item level"
also same if there is going grup with party for example 1 guy will have 100 IL and 5 others bluesuits thinks he can smuggle them into town so game will answer them "you cant enter to city becouse one or more of your companions dont have enough item leavel to enter the town"
also it can be look funny you need to have 4 leather jackets to join TC but at least YOU NEED TO HAVE THEM so fraction who atack will have some even shity profits from you :) better this than punish all players on server with 100 caps paying :)
also someone can say "im new why i cant enter to city i wanna do quest why the city is blocked omg im angry" ect ect
TC is for short time like 15 mins you can survive this 15 min not entering to city becouse of atack
also there will be persons who will join tc and fast throw gear on ground and other friendly person can collect them and run away so they items will be save and bluesuit invasion still will be... but throwing and collect items needs "time" and also eats AP so atacking or defending fraction need fast shot down this persons... so they will have them items :) so dear pvpers will be need little skill to play then just camp in one place and waiting for enemy to come :)
well if this is not about tc fights then sorry for post :)
i hope you enjoy my idea :) i just think it is best of solution to solve problems like you have :) and sorry for my bad english it is not my native language
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and what about sneaker and looters? :D this idea is crap. bbs is crying about blue who want to troll when they use 10waves in every fight.
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You act like pvpers don't delight in blowing random players into tiny pieces while questing or whatever. If everyone you met was powerful enough to challenge you you'd probably ragequit since you can't even handle players who have no chance to kill you.
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and what about sneaker and looters? :D this idea is crap. bbs is crying about blue who want to troll when they use 10waves in every fight.
Than make something better,when this idea is *crap*. The easiest way to NOT help someone is criticise his opinion,idea,solution and not bring anything better. This way there will always be no solution for the problem. Just keep crapping on everything but than dont complain that nobody is doing something about it,when everything is CRAP NOOBISH TROLL etc..
Actually I like the idea about sweeping brahmin poo as a thank you for the savers that took care of me and the one with the items too. I think new players wouldnt be pi**ed off if they could make some extra money,earn some xp and help to their savers which would take them like 1-2 minutes. There is nothing bad about that. Question is,if it would stop random bored blue suiters.
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You complained endlessly about fr so they made respawn short enough to heal and regear one char. So you complain more and your answer is grief all players and promote shit shovelling. The core tcers ruin this game with their whining because they want to keep their private pvp game to themselves so they don't have tough competition. Everything good added to fonline gets nerfed or removed because apes are whining bitches. Gear is practically free for them and difficult for solo players to get and yet their salty tears flow endlessly about the dangeous bluesuits. Remember how ac build could do nothing but run around so they whined until it got nerfed? Same with HH. Hth gets one shotted all the time you don't see hth players bitching about op bgers, all the complaints arw from the self styled "pros" of this incredibly basic game.
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You complained endlessly about fr so they made respawn short enough to heal and regear one char. So you complain more and your answer is grief all players and promote shit shovelling. The core tcers ruin this game with their whining because they want to keep their private pvp game to themselves so they don't have tough competition. Everything good added to fonline gets nerfed or removed because apes are whining bitches. Gear is practically free for them and difficult for solo players to get and yet their salty tears flow endlessly about the dangeous bluesuits. Remember how ac build could do nothing but run around so they whined until it got nerfed? Same with HH. Hth gets one shotted all the time you don't see hth players bitching about op bgers, all the complaints arw from the self styled "pros" of this incredibly basic game.
TRUE
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,26746.0.html (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,26746.0.html)
...and yet most don't seem to understand yet..... perhaps someday they shall look past there own preferences and see a wider world and become enlightened? I doubt it. I see two diverging paths..... One of which will most assuredly destroy the other.... and for what? a really really reallly shitty 2d did i mention shitty , shooter.... Who would have even heard of fallout if that is what its inception was in the 1990's? Uh..... hmmmmm....... welll now, isn't that a kick in the ass, what makes fallout special had nothing to do with running around in realtime blasting the shit out of other greedy little douchebags for itenz and bitching rights.... What a sad sad little derivative pile of shit this once "special" social sandbox game is becoming. Well that's it for my soap box time, off to bed!
:)
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I like this suggestion I tire of killing bluesuits that come back and forth non stop for no reason. also did anyone else notice that everyone that disagrees with this suggestion are the major trolls of this game and they just dont want to have to give something when they are trolling with bluesuit and die.
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also did anyone else notice that everyone that disagrees with this suggestion are the major trolls of this game and they just dont want to have to give something when they are trolling with bluesuit and die.
Yes yes I'm a major bluesuit troll hah :D Why don't you play on requiem if you think this idea is so great. Why don't you even play on 2238? Because of 20 sec replication timer, right I must've forgotten.
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Yes yes I'm a major bluesuit troll hah :D Why don't you play on requiem if you think this idea is so great. Why don't you even play on 2238? Because of 20 sec replication timer, right I must've forgotten.
really I dont understand why trolls cant pay 100 caps. we all have atleast 100k each so 100 caps is a fucking joke. This will prevent people from constant trolling. with this 20 sec rep time now its even worse. If they want me to waste ammo on them then they should have to pay when I kill them and waste that ammo.
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Besides Kelin, people who would have to pay most would be the fastrelogging pvp players who die in waves and use bluesuits for whatever cheap tasks like scouting.
In addition many people have said that top tier stuff is too hard to get. So maybe that stuff should be easier to get to compensate that you have to pay your killer.
Then we have the people who don't want to farm anything at all...
Sure, sure, but i have no idea what this change would achieve.
Discourage bluesuit strategies, make players more cautious when they are not carrying anything or encourage them to carry stuff to protect their own life. Stop them acting retarded. Honestly you should know what kind of effect giving loot to enemies has on trolls.
hello ever1 in new in forum and i see this discusion i have small idea :)
The issue with your suggestion is that many battles take place when timer is off, or in a non-tc area.
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Discourage bluesuit strategies, make players more cautious when they are not carrying anything or encourage them to carry stuff to protect their own life. Stop them acting retarded.
What about guarded towns?
You can't defend yourself there.
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What about guarded towns?
You can't defend yourself there.
If you yourself die while your victim's respawn timer is on, he doesn't have to pay. This is to prevent suicide bursting in safe towns, or suiciding in general. To discourage them even more, a fancy system could be developed that the burster has to pay for both - only in safe towns.
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I can't believe this suggestion still holds any merit. Do you really think that even if this poorly thought out idea gets implemented that it would discourage trolls? Even if the developers implemented permanent death (or getting ass pounded in real life when their character dies) you will still see people bluesuitin' it up. They will gladly bypass any restrictions just to see you crying on the forum (which you are doing right now) because that is where they get their satisfaction, not caps or phat loot. So wipe those tears away and take it like a man, we all did why can't you?
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idk, cuz he's afraid he might have to waste 5mm?
I really don't understand what retarded rationale he has....
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I agree with this idea.
Force players to shovel shit, carry boxes or any other small quest in respawn camps so we don't see the same bluesuit every 30 seconds, I don't agree with the caps idea though.
Oh wait, you're a newbie who doesn't have a bunch of alts to fast relog and you don't want to shovel shit everytime you get bursted in NCR? Boo Hoo... People shouldn't care about NCR or what happens in it, or you.
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I can't believe this suggestion still holds any merit. Do you really think that even if this poorly thought out idea gets implemented that it would discourage trolls?
Yes because trolls don't want to give anything to their enemies.
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Yes because trolls don't want to give anything to their enemies.
Then you haven't met enough 2238 trolls.
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Yes because trolls don't want to give anything to their enemies.
Thats ain't true they do want to give.... frustration....
Well seriously I said before I don't believe this will work out. Only new players will get the bad effect from it.
And as before said making victim pay to his murderer for getting killed encourage to shoot all which discourage other activities player trades, role play, idling, having some causal fun with some random player. However if victim pays for his life saver only (Npcs) then it has no holding back power for those you call trolls since as you said they don't want to give things to their enemies which ain't always true.
The only way to make life have a price and really work as you wish is to make death permanent. However most pvpers would ragequit when that would be implemented especially now that it became common that fights last longer due to fast relog. Imagine you got to make a new pvp alt after each death it would take quite a time especially if you get killed by a floater at lvl23 and got to start over with a new char.
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Then you haven't met enough 2238 trolls.
But troll is someone who exactly doesn't carry any loot or carries something non-loot worthy and tries to benefit from geared players' presence. If someone carries something that's worth looting, he isn't a troll.
If everyone always "carried" 100 caps, nobody could be called a troll. People could come in as bluesuits as much as they pleased - if they still would.
Well seriously I said before I don't believe this will work out. Only new players will get the bad effect from it.
Actually new players die much more in encounters and random accidents with game mechanics they don't know about, like vault city door, stealing, glow radiation, going too close to BoS.
I can guarantee that the suggestion WILL work towards its goal which is to discourage irrational bluesuit activities. Nobody would spam himself as bluesuit in dangerous location anymore unless there was some bug that overflows the wasteland with caps.
And as before said making victim pay to his murderer for getting killed encourage to shoot all which discourage other activities player trades, role play, idling, having some causal fun with some random player.
It wouldn't discourage player trade because the benefit of the trade is higher than 100 caps.
What comes to roleplay, idling and "casual fun" - none of these are actual designed features. They are just byproducts without measurement. You can't measure fun or roleplay.
What's more: if you want to idle or roleplay, you still have to have gear to protect yourself and claim the right for your presence. It's known fact that apes appear where ever there are people in unsafe zones, had they gear or not. That's why we have so little roleplay in unsafe areas. And guess what? It's the trolls who most likely would break these role play situations with their retarded suicidal behavior. If you kill a geared guy, he most likely won't come back, or only comes back few times. A troll can come back dozens of times.
I used to participate in a certain role play project in last session and I can tell that one bad problem were the people who kept coming back without gear, or only with shit gear and using suicide tactics. Today such project would be completely out of question due to the effectiveness of trollbuilds. Especially cheap sneakers. So if you want to support roleplay, first thing to do is to get rid of trolls.
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killing a bluesuit = 1, MAXIMUM 2 mfc.
stealing 250 MFC from enclave -> 1, maximum 2 minutes (including logging into thief, driving to enclave, and finding encounters).
do the math.
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Wait, so how does it work if someone wearing equipment dies? Are they free from the penalty or are they penalized twice? If they are free from the penalty then all the bluesuit trolls have to do is put on simple leather jackets.
Another thing is you're underestimating the amount of money trolls and factions have to throw away; it'd be easy to log in, earn 1-2k, and buy yourself 10-20 deaths for the lulz.
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Every sec someone dies, this will be "poo hunting" minigame after death )
Someone killed you, then other found you and third one healed you but you used to pay 100gp to first one who killed you... isn't it ridiculous?
Maybe if you was killed you'll be used to pay lvl*100gp to doctors? Or 100gp per each kill from "past life"?
If you can't pay they will send you to dig ore, chop trees etc.