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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Fat Man on November 18, 2012, 10:33:57 pm

Title: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 18, 2012, 10:33:57 pm
Since developers don't play this game and don't seem to give any hint of taking time to think out PvP balance. I decided to show this video and make a thread. I recorded for PvP screens and movies. This got me thinking about PvP balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYfVUBYtzI

I think snipers should do more damage we have session with 290 hp and this fucking weapon only does 2-150 damage (150 damage is extremely lucky bypass and requires an extremely lucky roll). How many fucking times do I need to shoot one big gunner before he dies? Knock out just isn't enough you can knock out somebody 4 times such as I did and not kill him. Need some counter measures to these max HP rl builds and snipers doing a little more damage would help.

Discuss.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on November 18, 2012, 10:35:32 pm
Cripple them instead?

Edit: I like the song of the video :P
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 18, 2012, 10:37:27 pm
Cripple them instead?

Doctor, pick weapon back up still doesn't do anything worth of damn damage wise to actually be able to kill anybody without firing 20 shots on the average big gunner
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: manero on November 18, 2012, 11:14:30 pm
Imo pvp its perfectly balanced atm.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Brujah on November 18, 2012, 11:29:23 pm
Snipers could use a small buff indeed.


Problem is... Exactly how much is a buff to make them balanced instead of overpowered?


We can't forget the sniper's high range, especially if he is in an open map without many flanking positions.


Though I agree that it's very hard for a sniper to survive 1v1 if a BG got him on range, even if he pulls out the .223 pistol for faster shots he'll still have a high chance of dying.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 18, 2012, 11:30:23 pm
TC build balance is quite perfect to be honest.
Snipers have a role, which is range superiority. A team without snipers can't match against equally skilled team with snipers.

Snipers just can't do much alone vs big gunners even if they have range advantage.

So if the game is ever going to turn towards "having just one character" snipers will need a buff. But that buff has to happen in gear, not crit tables or perks. If you buff sniper perks, low gear trolls benefit most.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 18, 2012, 11:34:30 pm
TC build balance is quite perfect to be honest.
Snipers have a role, which is range superiority. A team without snipers can't match against equally skilled team with snipers.

Snipers just can't do much alone vs big gunners even if they have range advantage.

Shouldn't have to shoot a big gunner 10 times with 4 knocks just for him to get back up and run away. Sniper do less damage than last session do less bypasses and we have ability to have more damage resist and 280 hp how is this balance, or is it balanced because you and manero win alot more than we do?
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: T-888 on November 18, 2012, 11:35:04 pm
No change about fineese appeared on these two updates, absence of this change causes balance issues for snipers at the moment.

CA helmet was 10% crit chance modifier, 10% crit power modfier before changes of 2 latest updates. Solar doubled all helmet critical chance modifier to make helmets more useful, buffing RBtE to ignore 50% instead of 25% crit chance modifier at the same moment enhancing the viability of the perk. Fineese was meant to balance out these changes for snipers, because even with the buffed RBtE it results as nerf, the critical chance modifier being the same with the perk for helmets before these changes, forcing players to just sacrifice another perk they didn't have to before for the same critical chance.

Unless of course Fineese get's changed, then it actually converts to a slight buff.

Fineese was meant to ignore the 30%DR on critical hits.

So if the game is ever going to turn towards "having just one character" snipers will need a buff. But that buff has to happen in gear, not crit tables or perks. If you buff sniper perks, low gear trolls benefit most.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: manero on November 18, 2012, 11:35:45 pm
Shouldn't have to shoot a big gunner 10 times with 4 knocks just for him to get back up and run away.

Blame your big gunners not your sniper. He should be dead after first KO.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: T-888 on November 18, 2012, 11:39:53 pm
True, he did what he supposed to do, but his team mates didn't "connect."

To be honest Snipers do lack a bit of kick, with all this SS spamming.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 19, 2012, 12:47:35 am
Shouldn't have to shoot a big gunner 10 times with 4 knocks just for him to get back up and run away. Sniper do less damage than last session do less bypasses and we have ability to have more damage resist and 280 hp how is this balance, or is it balanced because you and manero win alot more than we do?

Sniper gear is cheaper. Sniper rifle no longer has the same value as it used to have in last session. It's not rare to see bluesuits with sniper, but bluesuits never carry for example avenger or gatling.
I must agree that snipers can't afford as many resist perks as big gunner, this fact has basically decimated close-range crit builds like plasma rifle user and pistol shooter.

Incorrect.

What do you mean incorrect? If you buff the sniper perks, so that for example better crits has +40% on the tables, any shitty gun can do crazy effects.
Good example is silent death pistoler. They completely rely on this perk and the guaranteed crits it does. Character's power has to be tied to player's skill and gear not his build and random lucky crits.

Honestly snipers would work the best so that if you shoot one target enough, you will score a guaranteed good crit eventually. Not so that you have to dare the same odds with each shot.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 19, 2012, 12:51:07 am
Vault city patrols is actually not all that easy farm. Maybe for us but average player maybe not.

You could say this same arguement about rocket launchers and avengers, lets nerf those also. And lets give armors and add a new trait for special bonus to reduce their damages as well. So that is the arguement because its more common it should be total shit weapon? Avenger is common great weapon, rocket launcher easier and way more common than avenger. Rocket launcher and avenger is the 2 most powerful weapons in PvP and it is common easily obtainable and you can make builds that reduce damage, reduce crits have and have high amount of hp when using them. But here is the sniper rifle just as common so by logic becuase its common make it shit and unbalanced, so why isn't rocket launcher and avengers not shit by avv's logic?

I just think there needs to be something more creative than 12vs12 fights with all big gunners and it shouldn't take 20 snipers to kill 1 big gunner. I am not saying that sniper rifle should insta kill in 1-2 shots but there should be something done with this weapon that can do more damage than average crap shot of 20-30 damage with a knock down/knockout, and 1 good bypass out of 10-20 shots.

Bring back eye shooting table from last session this took skill to line up a shot to the eyes you had to position your character to have a perfect line up to the eyes to do a good bypass now its just a stupid thing that you keep clicking with head spams and limb shooting with shitty damage and a bunch of perks that have counter measures agiasnt this weapon.

Less damage, perks traits S.P.E.C.I.A.L there is just too many defenses agiasnt this weapon. It should be able to kill with less shots than being a complete useless shit weapon that just does a knock out, just look at the video I shot this big guner probably about 8-10 times 4 were knock outs and he still gets up and lives its total crap in balance sniper rifle should be able to kill and be good weapon. Sniper rifle with more damage would bring something more interesting and tactical to the game than the same old stupid shit rocket launcher/avenger swarm fighting.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: The Viking on November 19, 2012, 01:56:33 am
Vault city patrols is actually not all that easy farm. Maybe for us but average player maybe not.

You could say this same arguement about rocket launchers and avengers, lets nerf those also. And lets give armors and add a new trait for special bonus to reduce their damages as well. So that is the arguement because its more common it should be total shit weapon? Avenger is common great weapon, rocket launcher easier and way more common than avenger. Rocket launcher and avenger is the 2 most powerful weapons in PvP and it is common easily obtainable and you can make builds that reduce, reduce crits have and have high amount of hp when using them. But here is the sniper rifle just as common so by logic becuase its common make it shit and unbalanced, so why isn't rocket launcher and avengers not shit by avv's logic?

I just think there needs to be something more creative than 12vs12 fights with all big gunners and it shouldn't take 20 snipers to kill 1 big gunner. I am not saying that sniper rifle should insta kill in 1-2 shots but there should be something done with this weapon that can do more damage than average crap shot of 20-30 damage with a knock down/knockout, and 1 good bypass out of 10-20 shots.

Bring back eye shooting table from last session this took skill to line up a shot to the eyes you had to position your character to have a perfect line up to the eyes to do a good bypass now its just a stupid thing that you keep clicking with head spams and limb shooting with shitty damage and a bunch of perks that have counter measures agiasnt this weapon.

Less damage, perks trats S.P.E.C.I.A.L there is just too many defenses agiasnt this weapon. It should be able to kill with less shots than being a complete useless shit weapon that just does a knock out, just look at the video I shot this big guner probably about 8-10 times 4 were knock outs and he still gets up and lives its total crap in balance sniper rifle should be able to kill and be good weapon. Sniper rifle with more damage would bring something more interesting and tactical to the game than the same old stupid shit rocket launcher/avenger swarm fighting.

that's true, I do more damage with my RL alt than with my sniper. sometimes I do 70-90 with my ap rockets in combat armor guy, and with my sniper 50-70 when it's critical, rarely a good critical that do 90-130 damage...
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Roachor on November 19, 2012, 02:11:15 am
I've never seen a bluesuit with a sniper rifle but I've seen gatlings and m60's in the den several times.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Swinglinered on November 19, 2012, 03:02:42 am
Arm, leg, finish.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 19, 2012, 06:55:21 pm
Less damage, perks traits S.P.E.C.I.A.L there is just too many defenses agiasnt this weapon. It should be able to kill with less shots than being a complete useless shit weapon that just does a knock out, just look at the video I shot this big guner probably about 8-10 times 4 were knock outs and he still gets up and lives its total crap in balance sniper rifle should be able to kill and be good weapon. Sniper rifle with more damage would bring something more interesting and tactical to the game than the same old stupid shit rocket launcher/avenger swarm fighting.

Remember that you can also shoot 10 rockets or bursts at someone and he can survive by taking stims.

In addition many big gunners do have some crit resistance indeed, mostly bonehead that does truly help against headshots. But it doesn't help against groinshots that can cause good knockouts. Personally I shoot big gunners in the arms or groin and other snipers in the head and eyes.

Instead of buffing the eyeshots, it could be even reasonable to buff torso shots. Torso could have high crit-chance by default, but no effects like KO or cripples. Only more damage and knockdowns. This way if your enemy is highly resistant to crits in general, you could always shoot in torso for guaranteed effect. Because it's not fair for snipers that some builds are simply immune against their attacks.

If you recall last session, players did complain about powerful crits and chain-knockouts. The reason was the head/eyes was the best target to aim. It caused most damage and best effects. I'd say it's better that some bodyparts cause only effects or only damage so that snipers have to switch where they aim depending on situation.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 19, 2012, 07:19:44 pm
Remember that you can also shoot 10 rockets or bursts at someone and he can survive by taking stims.

In addition many big gunners do have some crit resistance indeed, mostly bonehead that does truly help against headshots. But it doesn't help against groinshots that can cause good knockouts. Personally I shoot big gunners in the arms or groin and other snipers in the head and eyes.

Instead of buffing the eyeshots, it could be even reasonable to buff torso shots. Torso could have high crit-chance by default, but no effects like KO or cripples. Only more damage and knockdowns. This way if your enemy is highly resistant to crits in general, you could always shoot in torso for guaranteed effect. Because it's not fair for snipers that some builds are simply immune against their attacks.

If you recall last session, players did complain about powerful crits and chain-knockouts. The reason was the head/eyes was the best target to aim. It caused most damage and best effects. I'd say it's better that some bodyparts cause only effects or only damage so that snipers have to switch where they aim depending on situation.

Well tubad if they complained the sniper was good alternative to fighting big gunners. Now there is too many defenses agiasnt them and its a big gunner session. What is the advantage to a sniper exactly you go in with 20 snipers vs 20 big gunners and maybe 5 big gunners well die by focus fire maybe some get knocked out and well get back up eat stims there needs to be something more interesting and tactical to the sniper, like being able to kill big gunners at long range but if big gunner gets close sniper dies its pretty balanced without making them complete shit useless relying on luck to do a 20 damage knock out here and there.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 19, 2012, 08:25:58 pm
Well tubad if they complained the sniper was good alternative to fighting big gunners.

I have to disagree. Big gunners being strong is much better than having snipers - that rely on luck - to dominate. Besides, in tc and pvp in general snipers see most action. They get most targets to shoot and thus we could say they "have most fun" because they are aware of what's going on. Big gunners just have to wait in formations with their shitty perception and participate in rushes. That was very common in last session. Now big gunners have more action and actually have people to shoot at instead of being the final nail in the coffin like in last session.

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Now there is too many defenses agiasnt them and its a big gunner session.

True, it was requested. Some players just don't want to be victims to knockdowns, I think it's fair to spend some perks and use some gear to defend yourself against them. It's not surprising that bgs choose anti-crit perks because nobody want's to be knocked out. It's because there's nothing you can do about it. Against normal fire you just take cover and eat stims and shoot back, you can affect your chances. But when lucky crit hits, you can't help it. Good players don't like it that they can't help their situation, they want to minimize randomness.

Quote
What is the advantage to a sniper exactly you go in with 20 snipers vs 20 big gunners and maybe 5 big gunners well die by focus fire maybe some get knocked out and well get back up eat stims there needs to be something more interesting and tactical to the sniper, like being able to kill big gunners at long range but if big gunner gets close sniper dies its pretty balanced without making them complete shit useless relying on luck to do a 20 damage knock out here and there.

Interesting and tactical exactly. But not random and luck-based. Tactical means situational, that's good because results depend on how the player uses the tactical tools in each situation.
For example shooting a running gay in the leg should have increased chance to cause knockdown.

But first there needs to be something valuable that snipers need to risk. Possible solution is to add crit-penalties to mundane guns and ammo. Then add a bonus for quality weapons and add quality ammo types that can only be crafted or bought with caps. Quality ammo would have crit-table and chance bonus.

In very simple way it'd be like this: crafted, glowlooted or purchased 100/100% plasma rifle has +10% crit chance. Same with laser rifle. But farmed 40/40% laser can't have this bonus no matter what.


 
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 19, 2012, 09:38:23 pm
Big gunners always had the action and what because a few people cry baby that their big gunner died by a sniper because they didn't pick stonelol that we have to nerf snipers entirely for this shit session?

I just think it gets boring when the only build that dominates PvP is rocket launchers and avengers. There should be something more interesting to play than some max hp, max toughness anti-crit big gunner.

I do not enjoy playing big gunner even though that is what the game forces me to play becuase nothing competes agiasnt big gunner any more. You can only counter tanks with tanks and it just becomes of a fight who clicks who first and fast relogs with more characters. This PvP is not interesting and nowhere as fun as last session when we had plasma tanks and snipers.

Snipers were not all that dominate last session if big gunner got close all they had to do was burst it twice dead sniper or fire a couple of rockets.

Like I say eye shots that do more than crap knock downs and 20 damage would be a nice feature, you have to line up an eye shot perfectly this doesn't always happen in every fight. And in some PvP towns a sniper is not a wise choice.

I mean come on we have big gunners who can take toughness, bonehead, stonewall man of steel, helmets that do -10 to -20 on crit table is just too much. Boohoo your big gunner got knocked out and killed by a good sniper build get over it we don't need the entire PvP aspect of the game to revolve around tank big gunners.

There has to be something that kill BG tanks and the choice used to be sniper becuase you could knock out and do a decent bypass with an eye shot from a long distance. Now this is not an option other than being some stupid crap support build which doesn't kill anything. Its actually more pathetic than making a small gun bursters hell even small gun bursters do more damage, but small gun bursters are complete shit also.


We got laser sniper? These builds are also crap on eye shots 50 damage critical with a knock down huge advantage. Plasma tank HA this weapon is a joke and it has to be crafted and farmed from enclave and its worse than a laser rifle.

So what does that leave us, critical bursters? Agian another big guns build.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Roachor on November 20, 2012, 01:09:05 am
Not to mention crits are so perk heavy that 290 hp isn't possible.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: brad smalls on November 20, 2012, 04:34:01 am
Maybe remove crits and incresse base damage of weapons like sniper laser and plasma
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: kox on November 24, 2012, 01:57:24 pm
avv dont talk farytail, bg gunners whit shity perc.? Snipers have more fun? Wtf u talking about? Snipers can move back from bullet range and fire couple (moust case shit) shoots then bg gunners come for his head.To much bg gunners give u clear picture off this seasson pvp and thats it.Buff at least dmg hit sniper char if u dont wont to buff annything else coz dmg is ridicilous also as helmet, and shame for sniper whitch is lvling to 24 lvl isnt that easy like big gunner.
I love play whit sniper rlly but for pvp cant say that is sooo fun.
devs better if u erase sniper rifle, from game and listen to all whinners so finnaly name that game bgfoonline ss 2238
Bah
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 02:14:17 pm
avv dont talk farytail, bg gunners whit shity perc.? Snipers have more fun? Wtf u talking about? Snipers can move back from bullet range and fire couple (moust case shit) shoots then bg gunners come for his head.

What I mean is that if you have more PE and gunrange, you obviously have more targets to shoot at. Meaning that you know what's going on in general and have more fun because there's more targets to click.

Those big gunners won't get to you if you got a line of friendly bgs to stop them. That's why tc balance is okay but snipers as solo aren't recommended. It can be witnessed in hinkley.

Quote
To much bg gunners give u clear picture off this seasson pvp and thats it.Buff at least dmg hit sniper char if u dont wont to buff annything else coz dmg is ridicilous also as helmet, and shame for sniper whitch is lvling to 24 lvl isnt that easy like big gunner.

Actually the damage is quite okay if the bypasses worked as they used to. If you shoot someone who has luck1 with sniper, it realistically does over 100 dmg per crit.
But why snipers were overpowered in last session was that head and eye crits were too powerful. They had no only the best damage, but also the best crit chance and best chance to cause KO and KD. To achieve good balance, a single bodypart shouldn't cause best damage and best effects. Only either.

Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 24, 2012, 04:02:25 pm
Actually the damage is quite okay if the bypasses worked as they used to. If you shoot someone who has luck1 with sniper, it realistically does over 100 dmg per crit.
But why snipers were overpowered in last session was that head and eye crits were too powerful. They had no only the best damage, but also the best crit chance and best chance to cause KO and KD. To achieve good balance, a single bodypart shouldn't cause best damage and best effects. Only either.

First off nobody rolls builds with 1 luck in PvP, it was already stated that knock down knock out has nothing to do with luck stat. But sniper had 111-160 hp and would die in seconds if big gunners got to close a sniper wasn't that over powered unless you were one of those cry babies who couldn't handle dying in a fight becuase of knock out. You know a sniper can shoot 50 hexes but all a big gunner with stonewall had to do last session was walk 15 hexes and burst them game over for sniper.

Sniper builds are generally weak low HP and make up for it in range so basically at the state of the game we have a 111-187 hp snipers which use jet and have -15% dr that do no damage rarely causs a good critical other than a 20 damage knock out here and there. Snipers die easily its not over powered its balanced its called paper build you take critical perks to do most damage possible while sacrificing health, toughness and anti-crit abilities. I think it was fair last session because there has to be something to counter a 280 hp max toughness rl tank, or any big gunner for that matter. There is too many perks and now a trait that defend agiasnt snipers.

Also last session eye shots actually worked and had a better crit table, and eye shots you had to line up. Big gunners does its damage 100% of time doesn't rely on luck and does its was guarenteed to do its max damage potential shooting in any direction. A sniper didn't, a sniper had to be in perfect line of site to the eyes and this was not always easy to pull off took some skill in the big chaos everybody running around like organized chickens that we call town control.

I am sorry but fast relog big gun battles is not really my idea of fun I like would to switch it up for once and play sniper or laser without it being total shit.

Also sniper was a good choice for somebody like me who doesn't even live on the same continent of the server who constaly moon walks when trying to one hex on a big gunner, I hate playing burster for this reason.

Just get off your sneakers for once AVV and play your avv0 for a few fights and you will see what me and others are talking about.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 04:55:21 pm
What I was trying to point out was that old head/eyecrits were too powerful because they came with knockout + 4x bypass damage.
It should work so that aimed shots that cause knockouts, shouldn't also cause massive damage. Because then there's no reason to shoot anywhere else.
For example now nobody aims at torso. Torso could be a target to do lots of damage while head&eyes were for kos and kds. So basically:

- Reduce head/eyes damage multiplier
- Increase torso critchance and damage. (Torso could have like 60% base critchance to encourage low-range crit builds like pistolero and plasma)
- Add critchance and power bonuses for quality weapons and ammo
- Return bypass chance or make it related to armors and weapons rather than luck
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: davrot on November 24, 2012, 04:59:50 pm
Just don't endanger my bg builds.
There, I shortened it for you.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Roachor on November 24, 2012, 05:04:48 pm
Avv what are you talking about? with bonehead and man o steel eye shots are total crap, you haven't been noticing people just shoot limbs now? the 4 times dmg multiplier isn't enough when sniper only does like 35 dmg, best possible crit is 140 minus armour so you need at least 2-3 to kill someone.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 05:12:46 pm
Avv what are you talking about? with bonehead and man o steel eye shots are total crap, you haven't been noticing people just shoot limbs now? the 4 times dmg multiplier isn't enough when sniper only does like 35 dmg, best possible crit is 140 minus armour so you need at least 2-3 to kill someone.

What I'm talking about is that in last session people complained about crits because the head&eyeshots came with best damage and knockouts. So best way to have balanced crits would be to divide the aimshots into those that do effects (cripples, kos, kds) and those that do damage. Otherwise everyone will just aim in eyes and rest bodyparts are just fillers.
I'm fully aware that snipers can't kill high hp targets. For example my groinshooter sniper simply can't do it because the damage output is so bad. But he can KO people just fine.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 24, 2012, 05:15:09 pm
-snip-

Quote
- Reduce head/eyes damage multiplier

This has already been done why its complete shit. You have this +40 critical defense and stonewall if you were to take all these perks, traits and combat helmets on top of it. 150 bypass is needed vs a 290 hp big gunner you forget that people have 290 hp? So lets reduce these crits to do 5 damage now so the max hp rocket launcher is only thing used still, this changes nothing, big gunner is even more dominate.

I don't understand why we have 290hp but sniper builds were changed so they do worse damage. Begining of session had it right but the changes to RBtE changed this.

Quote
- Increase torso critchance and damage. (Torso could have like 60% base critchance to encourage low-range crit builds like pistolero and plasma)

What so we can sit there and shoot it 4 times in a fight with a fast shot build? Its fine way it is what is wrong with eye head shots doing good amount of damage requires more skill points and action points to use. The sniper shot requires the most AP out of all the builds, and it doesn't make up for anything.

Quote
- Add critchance and power bonuses for quality weapons and ammo
Yes its good idea also makes the LSW less shit also if .223 had some special critical feature.

Quote
- Return bypass chance or make it related to armors and weapons rather than luck

This has already been done why we have full DR amors but the deterioration % determines the chance to reduce bypasses.




AVV please just play sniper for once all I see is you running around on big gunners and sneakers you do not play sniper enough as far as I see to understand what is wrong with the sniper.

Avv what are you talking about? with bonehead and man o steel eye shots are total crap, you haven't been noticing people just shoot limbs now? the 4 times dmg multiplier isn't enough when sniper only does like 35 dmg, best possible crit is 140 minus armour so you need at least 2-3 to kill someone.

Yes reduce the multiplier when a normal none critical shot on that unlucky roll does 4-6 damage, lets reduce it to x2 for top critical roll so we can now do 12 damage isntead of 50-60 on a bonehead build.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Mike Crosser on November 24, 2012, 05:18:38 pm
There, I shortened it for you.
He is right,stop trying to save BG critical hitters and ruin all other builds.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 05:42:32 pm
This has already been done why its complete shit. You have this +40 critical defense and stonewall if you were to take all these perks, traits and combat helmets on top of it.

Actually the damage multiplier is there but most builds have over 4 luck which means that 1/3 of your crits do bypass, that's not very good. Sniper damages are mostly being reduced by luck, crit power resists from perks only effect the multiplier and effects. At least that's how it seems, since it's hard to tell due to crit tables being a mystery.
You can see this by shooting someone with luck1 in the arm with laser. It can do over 120 dmg. Trust me, luck is something that makes sniper crits very weak. I know this by playing luck1 sneaks. Even some crappy laser pistol does over 100 dmg.

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Begining of session had it right but the changes to RBtE changed this.

That's because in the very beginning many people had luck1 builds.

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What so we can sit there and shoot it 4 times in a fight with a fast shot build?

I'm talking about aimed torso shots. Nobody shoots at torso atm.

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Its fine way it is what is wrong with eye head shots doing good amount of damage requires more skill points and action points to use.The sniper shot requires the most AP out of all the builds, and it doesn't make up for anything.

Well you yourself suggested that helmets could break if multiple headshots were fired at it.
Besides, the enemy builds also invested perks to resist those attacks. A build without bonehead and stonewall is very vulnerable to head knockouts.

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This has already been done why we have full DR amors but the deterioration % determines the chance to reduce bypasses.

Yeah but how many people run around with less than 50% condition armors?

Quote
AVV please just play sniper for once all I see is you running around on big gunners and sneakers you do not play sniper enough as far as I see to understand what is wrong with the sniper.

I know that head/eyes are bad targets to aim. But you yourself wanted diversity in the game. If you just plant a massive buff on them head and eyeshots, nobody's gonna aim anywhere else. Why aim groins or arms if shooting in head/eyes would result in best damage and effects?
And what's more, what about the builds without anti crit perks? If you buff head and eyes so that they can smash builds with the anticrit perks, the builds without those perks would be obliterated even easier. That if something would reduce diversity because everyone would have to pick those anticrit perks to keep up.

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Yes reduce the multiplier when a normal none critical shot on that unlucky roll does 4-6 damage, lets reduce it to x2 for top critical roll so we can now do 12 damage isntead of 50-60 on a bonehead build

But you could always aim in torso for guaranteed good damage - if my proposal was followed. Even if you had stonewall bonehead guy against you, you could still cause knockouts by groin and then damage through torso.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 24, 2012, 05:49:08 pm
-snip-

Its about all the same damage no matter where you shoot, I have shot in every part of body but its all about the same people aim head eye because it does more damage. I think leg shots should do a little more, and I think they should make a differnt crit table for eyes, so you make a specific build. You want to do damage shoot eye, want to do knock outs shoot head/groin and want to criple limbs shoot arm and leg. Maybe some new offensive sniper perks like "limb shooter" where it increases damage on limbs or something would be interesting.

So we have RbTE for head/eye builds, maybe a "limb shooter" perk for shooting arms and legs, and hell I can't think of creative name for a groin shooter. Maybe a perk like "limb shooter" +10% more damage on limbs. So you can take the perks iron grip and tree trunk thighs to defend agiasnt the annoying cripling affects but it will at least do some damage.

The main issue I have with sniper is eye shooting this should be better, you have to line up a shot to eye it requires more skill points 250% to be exact to hit 95% and its actually worse than a groin shot or head shot which requires less skill points to aim to.

Although idea of aimed torso shot is an interesting idea, and .223 ammo having a critical perk is nice idea.

But at this point discussing new features and ideas to be added in is something more so would require a new session, as far as we know if they wipe the game agian for a new session we might not have the features of this one. It might be something entirely differnt agian.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Roachor on November 24, 2012, 05:50:02 pm
"crappy laser pistol" has 40 base damage, of course its over 100 on a crit. Mlp > sniper rifle
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 06:50:30 pm
Its about all the same damage no matter where you shoot

It's because of luck the enemy has. Luck reduces potential bypasses to normal multiplier hits which helmet resistances diminish. Non-finesse sniper can do feasible damage still, but with finesse it's basically impossible to kill a luck over 4 max hp bg.

Instead of adding bodypart-specific perks it'd be better that any sniper could aim everywhere. This is because if a limbshooter sniper encountered a character who had chosen anti limb-crit perks he basically couldn't win. It'd be like fighting a gatling laser build while wearing tesla. Because of this reason headshooter snipers are so bad because almost every bg is protected against headshots. It's not good balance that some builds simply can't win other ones.

That's why it'd be better that if you meet a char that is protected against headshots, you could simply shoot him elsewhere. Having torso shots to cause guaranteed damage is one solution.

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The main issue I have with sniper is eye shooting this should be better, you have to line up a shot to eye it requires more skill points 250% to be exact to hit 95% and its actually worse than a groin shot or head shot which requires less skill points to aim to.

True it takes sometimes skill to put a succesful eyeshot, but sometimes it's completely accidental. You can't compare eyeshot to for example bg onehex, which doesn't really happen accidentally that often.
But it's good feature that crits can be situational. For example legshots could cause a guaranteed knockdown when shooting at running target.

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and .223 ammo having a critical perk is nice idea.

Well it was more like that we could have some rare and expensive "High quality .223 ammo". That could be crafted and bought only in small quantities. Similarly rare as gauss ammo is. We could even have "high quality .44" ammo so that those magnums and desert eagles could do more than troll. There's no difference between rare ammo and guns in terms of value. 
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 24, 2012, 07:03:11 pm
I'm kind of a traditionalist don't really like new weapons and ammo added into the game I do enjoy the original aspect of it all, I think .223 having some hidden feature or some perk added to it in regards to criticals is something I would like not an entirely new ammo.

I think the option of making specialized sniper build is more like it instead of making something completely useless and not an option to use like eye shots. You make specialized eye shooter if you want damage, make a head spammer if you want knock outs and limb shooter for cripling, and groin is secondary option if player using bonehead, good helmet or is using a anti-cripling build.

I don't know if its just me but i hear this from many other players but the eye shot criticals doesn't seem right and only does knock down rolls rarely causes a good roll.

Of course luck is defense vs bypasses but eye shooting should be changed to do some hidden bonus to do more bypasses not saying every shot bypass but still.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: jacky. on November 24, 2012, 08:40:49 pm
Add bozars.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 24, 2012, 08:57:32 pm
I think the option of making specialized sniper build is more like it instead of making something completely useless and not an option to use like eye shots. You make specialized eye shooter if you want damage, make a head spammer if you want knock outs and limb shooter for cripling, and groin is secondary option if player using bonehead, good helmet or is using a anti-cripling build.

But it's better for the game in general if many things can be done with single char. Having specific alts has been plague to this game since for ever.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Fat Man on November 24, 2012, 09:29:37 pm
But it's better for the game in general if many things can be done with single char. Having specific alts has been plague to this game since for ever.

For support stuff like lock picking crafting, repairing shouldn't need 50 characters for this sort of stuff. But the PvP isn't about single alts any more. PvP builds have always been about specializing in one area why we dont see small gun energy hybrid builds in pvp.

I don't get it any more oh fast relog making 20 characters to keep re-entering the town is okay defend this feature but then say the game should be done with less characters... Just pointing out something... Don't want to turn it into another fast relog arguement, hell I've accepted its just way it is now but still...

Think about this you advocate less character use but defend 20 wave of specialized PvP alts entering town and think there should be no relog timer.


But back to snipers I guess just have to accept this is just a support build and not a killing build like a big gunner. Just way it is no use in argueing. Maybe we get a new session with some things changed until then I just deal with it and do an epic face palm.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Nexxos on November 24, 2012, 11:29:54 pm
Thread cleaned. Keep the discussion to SG Snipers in PvP.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Sarakin on November 25, 2012, 02:08:01 am
You probably dont realize it, but snipers excel in vast numbers, unlike bursters, which tend to do better in smaller numbers, where they cant hit each other. That being said, you cant compare 1v1 scenarios, where obviously, big gunner is performing better.
Even a slight boost (or nerf) to snipers will have in the end huge impact on the gameplay. Like I said elsewhere, snipers will be always needed and sought after for their CC abilities and range (despite of having shitty damage).
What snipers really need is kind of relaxed perequisites. Nowadays, you need to take a lot of perks and very specific SPECIAL in order to be useful, whereas big gunner just needs decent HP and APs and hes ready to roll.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: DocAN. on November 25, 2012, 09:05:14 am
Stop this bullshit, watch few Napalm movies and You will find out how to play on Sniper.  They are perfect balanced and in skilled hands can kill any other builds, even in 1v1 fight.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 25, 2012, 01:00:00 pm
You probably dont realize it, but snipers excel in vast numbers, unlike bursters, which tend to do better in smaller numbers, where they cant hit each other. That being said, you cant compare 1v1 scenarios, where obviously, big gunner is performing better.

It's not justifiable. A build that can't manage in 1vs1 is not something that should exist. Players don't always hang around with their team and there shouldn't be a situation where a player decides that he can't participate because his build isn't suitable.

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What snipers really need is kind of relaxed perequisites. Nowadays, you need to take a lot of perks and very specific SPECIAL in order to be useful, whereas big gunner just needs decent HP and APs and hes ready to roll.

True, but sniper's powers are build-related. Bg's effectiveness is tied to the gear. BRD is pointless when using flamer, but Better Criticals perk can still cause trouble even with a mauser.
If snipers are going to get more space for defense-perks, their firepower must be more tied to gear rather than the crit table and perks.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Kelin on November 25, 2012, 01:35:55 pm
Some time ago I was questioning effectiveness of all sniper builds, but there have been done some critical table adjustments so for now to me it seems that snipers are quite balanced. I bring all kind of builds to TC like snipers, bursters, lasers, rockets and every build can be useful in certain situations.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Sarakin on November 25, 2012, 02:28:44 pm
Of course it is and should be possible to take out a BG in 1v1, but Im not finding it fair if a sniper takes out BG before he even has a chance to do something. Range and sight is a major factor in here.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: davrot on November 25, 2012, 02:49:04 pm
Im not finding it fair if a sniper takes out BG before he even has a chance to do something.
Maybe that's why they are called snipers? Haha oh wow, what a thought process.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: avv on November 25, 2012, 02:51:35 pm
Some time ago I was questioning effectiveness of all sniper builds, but there have been done some critical table adjustments so for now to me it seems that snipers are quite balanced. I bring all kind of builds to TC like snipers, bursters, lasers, rockets and every build can be useful in certain situations.

However plasma tank and pistolero are dead. Those builds need high-base critchance and some resistances to operate in the close range area.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Kilgore on November 25, 2012, 03:03:52 pm
I use only SG snipers whenever I'm playing pvp and I think they are quite ok. If you don't know how to play sniper char, then play pac man or something.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Sarakin on November 25, 2012, 08:15:44 pm
Maybe that's why they are called snipers? Haha oh wow, what a thought process.
You should always have some means how to counter that. Sniper can always retreat, when he spots someone that might be stronger and he wont stand a chance against him. However, big gunner hasnt got that luxury, so he has to survive some initial shots. With boosted sniper damage, that wont be an option.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: davrot on November 25, 2012, 09:38:50 pm
You should always have some means how to counter that. Sniper can always retreat, when he spots someone that might be stronger and he wont stand a chance against him. However, big gunner hasnt got that luxury, so he has to survive some initial shots. With boosted sniper damage, that wont be an option.
Yes, that's why i propose a new weapon.

Meet the Sniper Bluesuit Avenger!
(https://i.imgur.com/rb0zV.png)

Not only it can kill those pesky snipers but it also auto-detects bluesuits in your vicinity! Upon bluesuit detection it fires homing bullets which effectively disable those annoying trolls. (A note to the moderator, your time would be better spent moderating the #2238 irc channel or should I say #avvramblings channel.)
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Wind_Drift on November 25, 2012, 11:41:10 pm
I use only SG snipers whenever I'm playing pvp and I think they are quite ok. If you don't know how to play sniper char, then play pac man or something.

This.

Snipers aren't really nerfed that badly, they're still plenty effective.  If you change your play style to work with the new perks and builds, they work just fine.

Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: Boomshire on November 25, 2012, 11:45:28 pm
Sniper is just a team build.
Title: Re: SG Sniper PvP balance
Post by: cannotspace on December 05, 2012, 01:00:48 am
So if the game is ever going to turn towards "having just one character" snipers will need a buff. But that buff has to happen in gear, not crit tables or perks. If you buff sniper perks, low gear trolls benefit most.

I think the the huge HP + the anti crit (perks and gear) is what needs some remake, either to one or the other