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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: manero on January 29, 2011, 03:41:45 pm
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I dont see any reason to play as a big gunner.
1. Nerfed armor piercing ammo and their range made miniguns useless on town control(nowadays we use only sniper rifles and rocket launchers)
2. Autoaim for everyone. Now every single crippler with BB gun can take every single big gunner with avanger minigun or light support weapon. It was common fact before implementing auto aim but today its even easier.
3. Hard to craft and hard to get for lonely player.
Big guns only for masochists?
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Nah, BG is still great with Sneak skill.
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Nah, BG is still great with Sneak skill.
If i take big gun to my hand i dont want to crawl and hide like coward to get my enemy. I want to make a lot of boom, bang and smash.
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7512/screen1810.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/screen1810.jpg/)
Check that damage, this screenshot was made one year ago. One of this dead guys in metal armors was hit for 309. It was not critical and it was not point blank shot. That was just OLD AVANGER.
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Anyone got experience with stonewall big gunner?
Big gunner still has reliable damage output, but it's expensive to play.
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If i take big gun to my hand i dont want to crawl and hide like coward to get my enemy. I want to make a lot of boom, bang and smash.
So you'll be better a drug-based character with a CA on or a crit BGer.
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So you'll be better a drug-based character with a CA on or a crit BGer.
Man i got eleven 21 level pvp characters and most of them are big gunners. I know what im talking about.
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Two burst from avanger are still quiet able to kill most of chars or at least wound them criticaly. Biggest disadvantage of burst weapon in big fights is nescessity to have clear line of fire. In small engagements avangers still pwns. And the look so cool.
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Two burst from avanger are still quiet able to kill most of chars or at least wound them criticaly. Biggest disadvantage of burst weapon in big fights is nescessity to have clear line of fire. In small engagements avangers still pwns. And the look so cool.
Where are that small engagements? There is no other pvp than TC(there are better weapons than avanger for TC) or Hinkley(there is no avanger). Avanger is to expensive for killing bluesuits in mining sites if this is that "small engagements".
2 bursts from avanger? u shot once, i shot once i knock you out or down, break your hand, blind and there would be no second burst man. With autoaim sometimes i can shot u before your first burst. BGunner is not a challenge for sniper. Have u every play as a big gunner against sniper?
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Minigun doesn't cause any effect like crippled arm/leg/blind/KD/KO. No bypasses.
Minigun doesn't have such a powerful splash like bazooka, most of the time you'll be hitting one opponent. You can be screwed up if your opponent manages to cripple your arm and you have that sad doctor fail. Also, fast shot doesn't affect it, so it has higher AP cost than it was before.
I told Solar long ago that minigun is a water gun. Yet avenger has the highest dmg output blah blah blah.
Miniguns are to be nerfed because they are miniguns and only PK use them, and besides: there is nothing as demotivating as minigunners :)
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Where are that small engagements?
PKs in reno, low stuffers in mines and my favourite: harrasing players in captured town outside of reach of militia.
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I should copy that what Kilgore said to my first post in here. Pure truth.
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Does anyone have anything to say about stonewall?
Minigun doesn't cause any effect like crippled arm/leg/blind/KD/KO. No bypasses.
Guaranteed high damage however. Crits are random, if you fail a cripple from close range it basically means death to the sniper.
But you can blame instant shooting and constant 95% accuracy from the problems big gunners have. A guy who has his gun pointed at doorway shoots equally fast than a sniper who runs through the doorway with the gun on the hip, unprepared. Hell, the minigunner is even easier to target in that situation because he doesn't move.
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Does anyone have anything to say about stonewall?
Stonewall does not protect against blind or breaking hands and give only 50%(with 10 end) resist against KO.
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if you fail a cripple from close range it basically means death to the sniper.
If you are playing a sniper and attempt to kill someone equipped with avenger from close range, with hope that you will cripple him, then it's YOUR fail, right. But we're not talking here about dumb fighters, right? Sniper can see a minigunner from as far as 56 hexes and shoot him from 50, big gunner has average fov range about 40 and his avenger has 35 range.
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Crits are random, if you fail a cripple from close range it basically means death to the sniper.
With 8 action points and brof u can try twice with mauser or any other pistol(except .223 pistol). Its not so hard to get 8ap even if u are sniper. Im sure u will cripple that hand. Moreover, nowadays u dont have even to aim! Just one click...
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If you are playing a sniper and attempt to kill someone equipped with avenger from close range, with hope that you will cripple him, then it's YOUR fail, right. But we're not talking here about dumb fighters, right? Sniper can see a minigunner from as far as 56 hexes and shoot him from 50, big gunner has average fov range about 40 and his avenger has 35 range.
But isn't it also a dumb attempt for big gunner to try to outmatch a sniper from long range?
With 8 action points and brof u can try twice with mauser or any other pistol(except .223 pistol). Its not so hard to get 8ap even if u are sniper. Im sure u will cripple that hand. Moreover, nowadays u dont have even to aim! Just one click...
Aiming shouldn't have anything to do with fonline anyway. Sure you can try to cripple, but it's still a gamble where failing leads to dead crippler due to high and reliable damage output from big gunner.
But all in all, what do you guys propose that should be done?
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Bring back Avanger from the past.
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Bring back Avanger from the past.
So more instapwn. Isn't avenger equally vulnerable to cripples and blinds as any other bg weapon?
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It is but with better range and damage would be challenge. Now both suxx. Have u seen that screenshot that i posted?
FOnline 2238 Avanger Minigun looks like:
Damage 8 - 11
Burst AP: 7, Range: 35, Rounds: 40
Fallout 2 Avanger Minigun looks like:
Damage 10 - 14
Burst AP: 7(got 6 but in FOnline2238 every big guns need 7 so i put 7 here), Range: 40, Rounds: 40
Year ago we had original Avanger Minigun, today we got poor copy with nerfed damage, range and nerfed AP ammo. I dont know why, can someone tell me? :) For balance? There is no balance atm. Big guns are synonym to the word: shit.
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It is but with better range and damage would be challenge. Now both suxx. Have u seen that screenshot that i posted?
So just add a new more powerful gun and everything is supposed to be fine?
I personally think it's bad that material and equipment has so heavy bearing in combat success. There's been many threads about making combat require more skill rather than encouraging players to arms race. For example increasing frontal line of sight for everybody and decreasing it from the sides would help low PE characters spot where snipers are and use cover to gain ground.
And like I said, the biggest problem is the way shots are delivered: instantly and without accuracy penalties. A 220%sg sniper hits horizontally running player in the arms from 20hex equally fine as if the target was standing right right in front of him. Too much unmodified values, too much is dependent on build and equipment.
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its strange that they have banned people for using autoaim some time ago and now its an ingame feature :o...
Anyway u just mad that ur 11bg builds are f***ed now ;D... Wipe is "soon" anyway then just make 11 sniper alts to own again afterwipe ;D (just joking)
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So just add a new more powerful gun and everything is supposed to be fine?
Big guns dont have powerfull gun at the moment. So yes.
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Big guns dont have powerfull gun at the moment. So yes.
If skill has bigger impact on your success, you don't necessarily need the meanest gun around to win.
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Big gunners should be more powerfull then snipers. It's obvious for anyone who played with both type of characters. Crafting ammo is a pain in the ass and guns are usually more expensive. This higher cost should be compensated in higher efficiency . I think both avenger and minigun deserve a dmg boost.
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Wait is that topic about big guners character playing + and - or avanger?
There is no other pvp than TC(there are better weapons than avanger for TC)
Big guns dont have powerfull gun at the moment.
I think you are wrong. As you said TC is whole pvp now and yes it is, then you forget about something like bazoka.
And if we are talking about ave, yes it sucks its not the same like year ago but its still the best 1-2hexes defending postions weapon helping bazoka and making BG char still good playable.
The truth is that previous session was the worse time ever for BGs when snipers was great imba instant killers. I wonder did you post any words in my topic that days? I wrote 20posts like you now and finally they changed something for good(a little).
Anyway its seems that you want back to times where is max metal armor mk2 and normal shoot by weapon can kill your char in one moment. Great... its not fps game, only fallout if faster you die then more pvp is incorrect.
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I think you are wrong. As you said TC is whole pvp now and yes it is, then you forget about something like bazoka.
I did not forget:
Nerfed armor piercing ammo and their range made miniguns useless on town control(nowadays we use only sniper rifles and rocket launchers)
rocket launcher = bazooka
Im talking about avanger because it should be top big guns weapon but it is not. RL which is 1st tier weapon is more usefull on TC than 3rd tier weapon(Avanger Minigun) which can help in few situations but is not necessary.
The truth is that previous session was the worse time ever for BGs when snipers was great imba instant killers.
I think this is the worst season for big gunners. In previous season fast shot worked with big guns and AP ammo was more usefull. I had psycho big gunner with 3 bursts in row, that was great. I didnt have same damage like year ago but big guns were still deadly.
Nowadays, Fast Shot doesnt work with Big Guns and armor piercing ammo is less usefull than it was. And that autoaim... Its far harder to play big gunner today.
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I totally agree with Manero. Like him, I used to play a lot as minigunner, and was still doing it at the beginning of the era (and still sometimes, for small engagements...) but now, in TC, it's totally unplayable, sniper will always kill ya from long range, and with a bit of luck at short/middle range too. Laser sniper will surely kill you at middle/long range, and have pretty good chances at short range. Plasma tank will butcher you at close range. Rocketter will never let you approach or shot two time, usually, you die fast from a rocketcrit or 5/6 rockets at same time when deseperately trying to get your range. It's hard to use, cause you have to be always in first line or you will kill one of your mate, the AoE is a penalty more than a bonus, cause it's far easier to shot one of your mate than two ennemies. It also force you to place where you have the best chances to die, and in a rush, or you're first and die before getting ennemy, or you're not first and can't shoot without hurting teamates.
It's very heavy, very expansive to have and feed, and even with "the better DPS" it still happen often to rage behind your computer cause you done two time 60 damage on a metal armor instead of two times 80 (which is already barely enough to kill a sniper) or because your useless stonewall 10EN didn't protected you at all. Coming at point blank, and hitting for 120, or even 200 and be killed by the nasty eyecrit in return...
Really, or give back to avenger stat from FO2, or come back to good old AP ammo... ATM, it's really the worst T3 weapon.
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Right
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Another advantage of a BG that it doesn't need any LK, so it can be spent in another stats, like PE, AG or EN, so you better start sneaking.
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Another advantage of a BG that it doesn't need any LK, so it can be spent in another stats, like PE, AG or EN, so you better start sneaking.
What? Man if i were u i would delete this post as soon as it possible. No LK for big gunner? I would love to see your big gunners builds. U need at least 6 lk to get BRD, without this perk Minigun is... i cant find a word. Sorry. Even if u play with bazooka u have to have 6lk for more criticals. If u dont know that, please stop posting because u have no idea what are you talking about.
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I really understand your disappointment because I love play BG from ages too. But really dont you see that all professions got almost only 1 usable weapon. Like sniper rifle for snipers, laser forEW and now RL instead of ave for BGs. You can also make another threads about- Why plasma rifle and all fixed sh*t burst rifles are still useless. And about stonewall- yes it save your ass 100% from KDs and as you said 50% from KO its still not so great but better than nothing. I also heard that devs planning something like new perks vs cripples etc so dont loose your hope. Its all about their choices. Even I can say that BGs are now the best choice for TC.
PS.
Another advantage of a BG that it doesn't need any LK, so it can be spent in another stats, like PE, AG or EN, so you better start sneaking.
perks dude perks...
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Looking back in the history of pvp, little actual progress has been made. It's been mostly a cycle of little nerfs and buffs here and there that have just caused some builds and equipments dominate more of less. Even if you overhaul all perks and change damages and ranges for all guns, we'd still be in the same situation. The fact that biggest weight in combat efficiency lies in passive numbers keeps you trapped in the cycle. Balance issues exist in every game, but in fonline they are highlighted due to heavy reliance on constant factors.
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Maybe its more about nerfing critical hits then boosting big gunners, how about removing the eye location? The famous instant kill that brings you to 0 (Even tho you are wearing a BA, have 250 hp, and got shot by a bb gun.) ?
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Doesnt matter. Head is same ...
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Maybe its more about nerfing critical hits then boosting big gunners, how about removing the eye location? The famous instant kill that brings you to 0 (Even tho you are wearing a BA, have 250 hp, and got shot by a bb gun.) ?
Thing with crits is that they take at least a little skill. I personally love the fact that you can try to position yourself in good spot to maximize the chance to do eyeshots. In addition the way crits aren't dependent on your wealth is really great and should be extended to every build and weapon. What's wrong with crits are the ridiculous randomity and awful effects. The effects vary from instakills, -20 ap knockouts, various cripples to zero damage. Especially instakills and knockouts are terrible and shouldn't exist at all. A player doesn't deserve to put someone in totally miserable state by just clicking him once and getting lucky.
Random crits were okay in fallout singleplayer because being a total badass, the chosen one could afford random failures and hilarious effects. He didn't necessarily die if he failed to cripple someone's arm.
A word about instant shot delivery. The fact that no time is required before the shot is launched after clicking the enemy causes problems in this matter aswell. Even if you attack a sniper from behind, he can eyeshoot you in the matter of the time it takes him to click your char.
Yet another problem with crits are that they pretty much always hit with 95% chance and there's nothing you can do about it.
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http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg90842#msg90842 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg90842#msg90842) I still think this idea was a good one ;)
It would also give more options to the Devs for Balancing the game.
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It's sad nowadays I'm more apt to the effects of suppression from a sniper build gives knowing they can hit me from many hexes away without seeing them, rather a BG who fires and uncloaks right in my face wearing bulky metal armor (which is merely funny and sad).
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A player doesn't deserve to put someone in totally miserable state by just clicking him once and getting lucky.
Random crits were okay in fallout singleplayer because being a total badass, the chosen one could afford random failures and hilarious effects.
And, i am unsure they were "random" in fallout. There is a diffrence between random and random. Nothing should be random in a game.
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Since a cloud of lead can't really miss a target, i was assuming that basic damage would be enough.
However, now that you're speaking of it, i wonder why taking a LK1 was suggested to me in first place...
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The truth is that previous session was the worse time ever for BGs when snipers was great imba instant killers.
oh yeah I remember my Psycho Bigguner, type of character which had greatest respect, no other class could be compared. If you entered a TB encounter with Psycho BG, and they had no rocket launchers, basically 5 imba ultra pro cool turbo snipers were fucked. The class itself was awesome, BIG damage output, protection from every type of damage except bazooka and ultra low field of vision had its pros and cons. Nowadays bigguners have bazooka, or have just cons.
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If you moderate knockouts and very high crits ( not really bad idea ) it'd be also wise to moderate bursts at low distance. Now you can charge your AP, run to few hex distance and score high damage without really having to roll luck or aim checks.
Also there are EW snipers, which have to use low tier weapon and that's quite debatable.
Laser rifle should be higher tier and be less reliant on crits ( as every weapon ), otherwise balancing in next session might result in insane 40hp crits in eyes for EW snipers and fighting with 24y Plasma.
Alas there's also flamethrower which is kinda unique and deserves it's spot, esp. when upgraded, but might as EW be more matter of armor balance.
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oh yeah I remember my Psycho Bigguner, type of character which had greatest respect, no other class could be compared. If you entered a TB encounter with Psycho BG, and they had no rocket launchers, basically 5 imba ultra pro cool turbo snipers were fucked. The class itself was awesome, BIG damage output, protection from every type of damage except bazooka and ultra low field of vision had its pros and cons. Nowadays bigguners have bazooka, or have just cons.
so u find it awesome if a class dominates all others? no this is not awesome its unbalanced, all classes should be able to stand each other in one or other way. there should be no dominating class.
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I think Avengers are doing just fine this season, but what concerns me most is the neccessity of stonewall perk. Also ruined economy allows players to use RL in big (remember whining about expensive RL ammo ?), which are IMO the biggest threat to stonewalled big gunner.
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so u find it awesome if a class dominates all others? no this is not awesome its unbalanced, all classes should be able to stand each other in one or other way. there should be no dominating class.
oh yeah, fact that they see almost nothing, need thousands of caps to move and arent easy to operate is nothing to worry about.
this class was dominating, but only in one kind of situation. AND THATS FUCKIN HOW IT SHOULD BE :>
ps. people who havent played past seasons should be banned for taking part in discussion bout them :>
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so u find it awesome if a class dominates all others? no this is not awesome its unbalanced, all classes should be able to stand each other in one or other way. there should be no dominating class.
Ye, but classes need pros and cons
if BG already have many cons and they keep nerfing the pros, why use it AT ALL?
-heavier guns
-higher AP requirements
-higher ST requirements
-heavy and (for some guns) rare ammo
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Be men. Stop whining. BG is still has most RELIABLE damage output and chances to win 1vs1.
It is ridiculous. All that FOCDs, Scopes, whining. And finaly autoaim is implemented as it should be.
Yes, lack of autoaim gave a GREAT ADVANTAGE to BG class. Now it's time to PAYBACK.
Avenger is not so expansive and BTW it is farmable.
Anyway LSW is better Avenger this time, and it is no more expansive then Sniper Rifle and anyone can afford 10 223 bullets burst.
P.S. I don't care how it was in the past. If you got used to PWN anyone with your BG build, it's your problems. If you feel BG don't worth their salt, then it's time to try something else. Try EW for examle - are they fucked up or no these novadays?
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P.S. I don't care how it was in the past. If you got used to PWN anyone with your BG build, it's your problems. If you feel BG don't worth their salt, then it's time to try something else. Try EW for examle - are they fucked up or no these novadays?
I got 2 ew chars, one of them is typical ew sniper and the second one is plasma tank. Moreover i got sg sniper. All that chars are pure pvp power builds. It makes me objective in that what i said about big guns because i know how it looks like from sniper side and big gunner side.
Anyway im not going to discuss with anyone no more. I wrote what i wanted to write and i hope Solar would read it.
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ps. people who havent played past seasons should be banned for taking part in discussion bout them :>
wow, just wow... i bet u are some 12 years old "Rage kid! Z0MG pWned 111!!!" whos just sad abot beeing f***ed up with his bg build now ;D.
Free speech for all, i have same rights to post my opinion as you. ;)
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Free speech for all, i have same rights to post my opinion as you. ;)
So trollfest began. Im suggesting lock this thread.
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wow jus wow... i bet u are some 12 years old "Rage kid! Z0MG pWned 111!!!" whos just sad abot beeing f***ed up with his bg build now ;D.
Free speech for all, i have same rights to post my opinion as you. ;)
Bet accepted. I am known of raging, I am known of being 13, I am known of being pro pvper, I am known of being one of first minigun users ever, I am also founder of Fonline and grandson of God. :)
Free speech is human right I support, as long as people who have no idea bout what they are talking about remain polite and quiet. Because taking part in the discussion you have no idea about is lack of respect, and if you show me no respect, then you will obtain no respect too, fag.
Ps. In my fonline history I had BG in only one season, not the current one, and it was never my main class. My main class is the first which was nerfed at all. One hander fast shoot pistolero with needler and AP needles. Yeah, there was such thing once. :)
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However I don't know a lot about playing mad psycho drug minigunner tank, I have BG char in this era. 248 HP, double Toughness perk, 1 CH makes it "fitting" to so called powerbuild definition. Many would laugh hardly if someone calls me PvP ape.
My point is - if you want to speak about pros and cons of having any kind of build, you should at least try to play it.
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i didn't play with BG caracter...yet...
but 2 sugestion to balance the overpowered class:
1.implement Vindecator
2.controled bursts(like 3/shot, shotgun sound)
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LagMaster please stop. We dont need another BG weapon, just rebalancing existing...
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LagMaster please stop. We dont need another BG weapon, just rebalancing existing...
what did i did
also if you do not like the 2238 sistem, change the server, go TLA or Requiem
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Im not here only because i like this system, im here to check THAT system, suggest and report the exploits. Do u know that Vindicator use different than 5mm ammo? It means that devs would have to add that new ammo(4,7mm caseless) which use also H&K G11. Why not add that smg...? Because its easier to rebalance existing weapons.
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Yes, lack of autoaim gave a GREAT ADVANTAGE to BG class. Now it's time to PAYBACK.
Yep. With sniper without autoaim, you see bg coming to you, until you click, then go click in the aim part, the bg is in his range hiting you.
As people already said: is freaking random do cripple. Is not that easy imo.
And a BG bazooka crit build can hits you 100+ damage every single shot!
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And a BG bazooka crit build can hits you 100+ damage every single shot!
:o every single shot?! :o I didnt know my build is SO FREAKIN AWESOME because I got BG critical build with 6lk +3xMC +BC and its not SO sweet(21% chance of critical hit, sniper with the same luck and perks got something around 70% chance when shot eyes, but which sniper have 6 luck?? Every GOOD sniper got 10 lk so with 3 mc it means... 85%!! WOW! 21%=85%? i dont think so). Yes, sometimes i can hit for 150 and knock someone down BUT not SO often like sniper with(for example) .223 pistol by eyeshot. Have u seen how that pistol works? Or just oridinary sniper rifle... And stop telling about FREAKIN RANDOM cripple chance. I started more than one year ago and i dont remember season when crippling was so easy. Moreover there is no protection against cripple(like stonewall). Why?
And u know why i got that build? Critical BG for RL? BECAUSE AVANGER SUXX AND IS USELESS ON TC.
I will kill u by my ultimate Avanger waterminigun
(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/430/sc16.jpg) (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/sc16.jpg/)
LoL?
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Manero i think you cant win this WAR :(
I suggest as a good wish from devs to increase Avengers range to 40, it will be small step for devs and great step for BG players.
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Oh manero, my gold is yours.
What we have:
- Flamer and Improved Flamer - pretty nice but practically useless
- M60 - not bad but still needs some punch
- Light Support Weapon - imba making more damage than huge miniguns
- Minigun - same as M60, just ammo is easier to make
- Avenger Minigun - quite useful but at close range
- Rockwell BigBazooka - my long time personal favourite, but minimal damage 35? I think it should be at least 50.
Why play as big gunner?
For really BIG gun, high damage, burstfire! and spray-and-pray fun. Personally, I prefer rocketeer than minigunner.
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- Rockwell BigBazooka - my long time personal favourite, but minimal damage 35? I think it should be at least 50.
Agree with you.
mininum dmg is too low for Rocket Launcher.
Why i play as a big gunner?
Well.. mostly i do them just for fun, but no for real action.
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Manero i think you cant win this WAR :(
Never stop trying (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=12806.0) :>
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Regarding using BG in TC.
People use RL because of:
-range
-no spread (friendly fire)
-splash damage
-knock down
-cheap rockets - why don't spam enemy with them?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Regarding using BG in TC.
People use RL because of:
-range
-no spread (friendly fire)
-splash damage
-knock down
-cheap rockets - why don't spam enemy with them?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
You sir just pointed out why RL(Tier1) is more useful in most situations than Avenger(Tier3).
Sure Avenger is higher damage if using a proper build against another build which dont have toughness or psycho or whatever, Avenger is really only good at point blank, vs snipers, or bad builds.
If you ever tried shooting with avenger from decent range with 2x BRD to an enemy with 2x toughness, psycho or beer(asuming brotherhood armor) o_O then you would see how AWESOME dmg you would make, its really pathetic, Avenger is almost as i wrote before, only good at killing snipers, or point blank
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If you ever tried shooting with avenger from decent range with 2x BRD to an enemy with 2x toughness, psycho or beer(asuming brotherhood armor) o_O then you would see how AWESOME dmg you would make, its really pathetic, Avenger is almost as i wrote before, only good at killing snipers, or point blank
Sounds like balance? Yes a avenger minigun is not so good against tanks, may it is how it SHOULD be? I mean 40, but weak 5mm bullets.
Don't get it, why Avenger should be UBER weapon?
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Its not about being UBER or not, the fact is that RL is more useful than Avenger and its such a big differens between them echonomicly, its like saying fn fal is better than sniper or whatever, laser is also kinda the same way, plasma is very crippled due to the very low range.
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Avanger doesnt deserve 3rd tier position if 1st tier weapon is more usefull. Maybe second tier but definitely not 3rd. Make Avanger valuable weapon.
- Rockwell BigBazooka - my long time personal favourite, but minimal damage 35? I think it should be at least 50.
Yes, RL damage is more random then sniper crtis, 35-100? Sometimes i hit for 30 and sometimes for 70 BUT its acceptable ONLY because RL is 1st tier weapon.
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still 35dmg from freaking big explosion is a joke xD
and about CriticalBazookaBuild - i've got it (21% also)and crits are rather a rare nice surprise than something to be counting on. In theory 21% gives u chance like 1 to 5 to get that crit so...
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Rocket Launcher would be tier 2 but with increased minimum damage.
And I agree with manero and Linnea. Since Avenger is good only at point blank it isn't worth tier 3.
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Well, M60 ok i guess (ammo is harder than 5mm tho)
flamer is great for lvling, improved isn't completely useless if used with the better fuel (there's the range issue, but it's still not THAT bad)
Problem is with miniguns and RL, miniguns eat ammo like crazy and do damages similar to small tiny guns. And RL... Sure it has 40 hex range, but it has such a low damage when you look at the fact that it is a rocket launcher after all..
Maybe making the damage vary less? it's 35-100, maybe 80-100 would at least be an improvement
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increasing the RL dmg would power up the RL tank builds even more, thats not needed.
Thing with RL is the free shot, if you have friends with RLs too it means multiple free shots, got enough friends with RLs free shots turns to free kills.
What should be done is making it harder to craft the rockets, or farm, because now you can either farm in 1 hour on piss easy unity or masters,
or make a steal character, join and rob BOS patrols. Thats pretty bad, and lame
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What should be done is making it harder to craft the rockets, or farm, because now you can either farm in 1 hour on piss easy unity or masters,
or make a steal character, join and rob BOS patrols. Thats pretty bad, and lame.
Fuck yeah and by that nerf BG even more brilliant idea... ehhh...
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I would hardly call that a nerf, but ok whatever
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Lin..? At the end we will all be forced to use flamethrowers... Im done.
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Heh point was, making Avengers bad, RLs+rockets easy farmable, then lets forget about ANY BG weapon, RL for all.
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Nope, point was that to make avanger little more usefull than flamethrower ;) both are usefull only on few hex
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Exactly, so decreasing drugs (jet) + fast shot + Avenger dmg and making RLs so fucking easy to get, makes it wrong.
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Increase AP cost on RL?
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Increase AP cost on RL?
Why? Because RL is powerfull? It is not. It is just good weapon.
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Just increase Avenger armor piercing dmg:) make it a Tier 3 weapon, and add it in hinkley too:)
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Why? Because RL is powerfull? It is not. It is just good weapon.
Because it is kinda BG sniper rifle as it is now.
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Because it is kinda BG sniper rifle as it is now.
If u add possibility to shot eyes for RL why not. Got another stupid idea? Maximum critical chance for big gunner is 25% and for sniper eyeshot 95%. Its hard to say bazooka is some kind of sniper rifle.
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Let's wave the damages and ranges back and forth
So far this hasn't helped much. Turning damages up and down is what's been done past year and no actual meaningful progress has been made.
If u add possibility to shot eyes for RL why not. Got another stupid idea? Maximum critical chance for big gunner is 25% and for sniper eyeshot 95%. Its hard to say bazooka is some kind of sniper rifle.
It has the similar benefits as sniper: high spike damage, long range and unmodified damage over range. Current playstyle favours this kind of damage output since there's basically no drawbacks.
There could be two new forms of attack: hip shot and aimed shot. Snipers and single shot guns had to be aimed for max accuracy, which would take about equal time it takes to regen 2-3 aps, less for lighter guns like pistols, more for plasma rifles, rockets and scoped weapons. Otherwise they suffer serious unmodifiend accuracy penalty. Burst fire guns could be fired from the hip instantly, and due to burst fire, with better accuracy.
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increasing the RL dmg would power up the RL tank builds even more, thats not needed.
Thing with RL is the free shot, if you have friends with RLs too it means multiple free shots, got enough friends with RLs free shots turns to free kills.
What should be done is making it harder to craft the rockets, or farm, because now you can either farm in 1 hour on piss easy unity or masters,
or make a steal character, join and rob BOS patrols. Thats pretty bad, and lame
Ye, let's make it so BG are forced to save every bullet for weeks and then lose it in 2 bursts! That would rock!
Extremely high cooldowns for HQ stuff (plus the fact that it's on unguarded mines) makes people give up of crafting
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proper sniper build gots 12 PE so u can see ur enemy a lot earlier than he would enter to ur range - therefore u can easilly prepare to shoot him just right in the moment he reachs it. Rocket Launhcer gots 40 range - 10 less than sniper rifle (no whining about that but u have to understand its fucking a lot!) and u can see ur enemy just right he enters ur range. With autoaim snipers are killing machines (almost every shoot is critical, dmg highly over 100hp + cripple/KO/KD). Bazooka guy gots low dmg and crits rate is 1 time for every 5 shoots. The ONLY thing thats saves Bazooka as a gun at all is splash dmg + Knocdown power - buts still against proper line of snipers....
BG class is nerfed as hell, burst BG guns are almost usless now.
I would rather want that bazooka will be transfered to tier3 guns, be hard to obtain and rockets also but for god sake lets make it a powerfull weapon. 35minimal damage is a joke.
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In my opinion:
Avenger is ok, could use some more damage though (just little more) or/and maybe more special attack of it, which is damage to multiply enemies in line of fire, maybe give the bullets a chance to by pass enemy and hit the ones behind aswell, the point would be to decrease the damage reduction when spreading it across multiply targets.
Stonewall is not as good as it sounds.
RL builds are no great match for Snipers. Acually, snipers are good against everything exept storming buildings (they can still snipe em from outside so they dont really need to storm them).
Changes i would think about:
Decrease line damage of avenger penalty, and maybe boost damage a little (just little) bit overally.
Make stonewall perk block half or 2/3 of knockdowns (really block them, not just give higher chance to block them). And either reduce the time beign knockdown when having a stonewall perk, or improve the Quick Recover perk a lot (maybe all knockouts turn into knockdowns OR lasts only 1-2 seconds).
Make the sniper injuries have diffrent levels (like suggested before).
An idea could be also, to make defense luck (defence against crittical hits) to work as bounded with Endurence. Meaning, if a char has 4 Endurence and 10 Luck, he only recaives 4 luck towards defence, if a char has 8 Endurence and 10 luck, he recaives 8 luck for defence, if a char has 10 endurence and 6 luck, he recaives 6 luck for defence.
Well, some ideas.
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proper sniper build gots 12 PE so u can see ur enemy a lot earlier than he would enter to ur range - therefore u can easilly prepare to shoot him just right in the moment he reachs it.
Even this out by allowing everyone to see more in the front and less to the sides and back? Pe would then affect more long range shooting. This way everyone could try to spot snipers from afar and avoid them, but suffer from not looking around enough. It would make flanking enemies more easier.
Rocket Launhcer gots 40 range - 10 less than sniper rifle (no whining about that but u have to understand its fucking a lot!) and u can see ur enemy just right he enters ur range. With autoaim snipers are killing machines (almost every shoot is critical, dmg highly over 100hp + cripple/KO/KD).
Problem? Instant shot release, too build-dependent accuracies and too random cripple effects. I'd gladly trade random and powerful crits to more reliable crits with less power. Shoot in the arm: get expected result, not either 1,5x damage, weapon drop, cripple&bypass or no crit.
Avenger is ok, could use some more damage though (just little more) or/and maybe more special attack of it, which is damage to multiply enemies in line of fire, maybe give the bullets a chance to by pass enemy and hit the ones behind aswell, the point would be to decrease the damage reduction when spreading it across multiply targets.
Excuse me sir. Avenger instarapes everything that doesn't have BA or MAmkII with toughness and psycho. If someone wears BA or has invested in defensive perks and drugs he deserves at least some benefits out of them. Besides, pvp shouldn't be balanced around 3rd tier weapons.
RL builds are no great match for Snipers. Acually, snipers are good against everything exept storming buildings (they can still snipe em from outside so they dont really need to storm them).
Problem: buildings don't offer real defensive bonuses. If you think about it, a guy standing behind a window that covers 60% of his body should have more chances to not to get hit than the guy standing in open ground outside the building.
Decrease line damage of avenger penalty, and maybe boost damage a little (just little) bit overally.
What's avenger supposed to do anyway? If avenger is going to be the gun for rushing and basically everything that rocket doesn't do, what's the purpose of shotguns and smgs? Guns need roles, not all round versatility.
Make stonewall perk block half or 2/3 of knockdowns (really block them, not just give higher chance to block them). And either reduce the time beign knockdown when having a stonewall perk, or improve the Quick Recover perk a lot (maybe all knockouts turn into knockdowns OR lasts only 1-2 seconds).
I agree, the higher chance is just more randomity. Stonewall could actually work like this: immune to knockouts from the front. It would be sprearhead man's perk. Then again knockouts are pretty awful feature in first place. -20 aps is equal to instakill in most cases.
Make the sniper injuries have diffrent levels (like suggested before).
Yes, more predictability is a good idea.
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Big Gun bursters should pwn easily, okay. But I think they should be slower. I can't understand why a minigunner can burst twice per round just like a guy with an assault rifle.
Avenger should make a lot of damage just like Manero said in his first posts (if not more), but the minigunner should be able to burst only once per round. An assault rifle should make less damage but burst twice per round. This way the minigunner would be powerful and dangerous, but would also require support from assault rifles dudes, or P90c, who would act quickly (three bursts against enemies at short range). This way Big Gun bursters and Small Gun bursters would have different roles and behaviour in combat. And we would see more people using some kind of assault rifle, which is a pretty basic weapon in real life armies.
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Big Gun bursters should pwn easily, okay. But I think they should be slower. I can't understand why a minigunner can burst twice per round just like a guy with an assault rifle.
Avenger should make a lot of damage just like Manero said in his first posts (if not more), but the minigunner should be able to burst only once per round. An assault rifle should make less damage but burst twice per round. This way the minigunner would be powerful and dangerous, but would also require support from assault rifles dudes, or P90c, who would act quickly (three bursts against enemies at short range). This way Big Gun bursters and Small Gun bursters would have different roles and behaviour in combat. And we would see more people using some kind of assault rifle, which is a pretty basic weapon in real life armies.
But the problem is that it's more useful to shoot one big damage blast than many small ones. If the one big shot kills, the dude who can burst many times doesn't even get the chance to use his fast attacks. And even if the one big blast doesn't kill, the shooter can hide and regen aps, thus most likely avoiding his enemy's fast shots and getting a chance to deliver another spike hit. That's the reason fast shotter suck, he spends too much time shooting and exposed.
In addition real time doesn't have "rounds". Just gathered total of aps that vary between builds (duh). A round for 8 ap dude is a bit differend than for 14 ap guy.
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Right now one crit or 2 bursts from LSW have enough power to kill most of snipers. Rocket launcher is also good weapon and don't need any changes (maybe only to count RL + rocket AP as tier 2 weapon during TC). As you said avenger is now useless but instead of boosting avengers boost players holding avengers:
1. Give psycho +25% DR, -9PE and minus to critical chance - it will be useless to plasma snipers and LSW crit builds.
2. Change beer effect to those which have psycho right now.
3. Boost CA mk.II resistance on explode to 80-90% and nerf normal damage.
This way avenger build can be real tank with ultra-high resistance on one of damage type it depends of armor (BA, CA mk.II or Tesla) and high resistance on normal damage there is also a chance to make new type of build - plasma fast shooter. In my opinion there is no need to change Stonewall perk or critical effects caused by snipers.
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What's avenger supposed to do anyway? If avenger is going to be the gun for rushing and basically everything that rocket doesn't do, what's the purpose of shotguns and smgs? Guns need roles, not all round versatility.
Yes, i think thats what Miniguns should focus on, this special line of fire feature, it could be extended maybe (right now the damage is split on targets more or less, so its not really a very usefull feature right now i think?). Like rockets got area of damage in their way. Shotguns got this potencial knockdown ability. SMGs could be quicker then miniguns... but that is not possible with "insta" combat so, i guess they will remain a lower class burst weapon forever, same with pistols, lower class sniper.
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Bazooka guy gots low dmg and crits rate is 1 time for every 5 shoots.
riiight... the guy who made this char, don't know how to do. Seriously.
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bla bla bla, 21% crit chance face it.
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Clear BG is shit he need the drugs or its just a shit.
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There's no TC oriented drugless build. Before any action, everyone needs cigarettes at least.
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true drugs are just the necessity so iam not complaining about them at all.
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This topic it's a joke lol
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This topic it's a joke lol
Your post is a joke, if u dont have anything to say think twice before post.
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Why play as a big gunner?
Because you can shoot people with Big Gun
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Im wondering who is responsible for balancing guns, Solar? if yes - please create some alt and join to TC wars, to one of teams and try play big gunner with avenger.
Everything else is pretty balanced for me - really, good work! ..maybe exept granades, which also need some enhance - DMG or AP cost.
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It is clear Avenger suck in TC.
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Im wondering who is responsible for balancing guns, Solar? if yes - please create some alt and join to TC wars, to one of teams and try play big gunner with avenger.
Everything else is pretty balanced for me - really, good work! ..maybe exept granades, which also need some enhance - DMG or AP cost.
Give back KD to plasma nades and grenader will be a good class ;p
Give back good damage to avenger and minigunner will be a good class.
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Give back KD to plasma nades and grenader will be a good class ;p
Give back good damage to avenger and minigunner will be a good class.
Sad thing is that good class is something that can pwn combat armored drug dudes instantly. Couldn't the good class requirements themselves be lowered?
Besides, wasn't minigunner good class last wipe? And before that it was sniper, and before that minigunner again. Why go back and forth?
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Sad thing is that good class is something that can pwn combat armored drug dudes instantly. Couldn't the good class requirements themselves be lowered?
So nerf critical hits for snipers. There is no different for sniper if opponent wear combat armor or not.
Besides, wasn't minigunner good class last wipe? And before that it was sniper, and before that minigunner again. Why go back and forth?
Minigun was very good weapon in every season except current season.
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Sad thing is that good class is something that can pwn combat armored drug dudes instantly. Couldn't the good class requirements themselves be lowered?
Besides, wasn't minigunner good class last wipe? And before that it was sniper, and before that minigunner again. Why go back and forth?
You don't get it. Last session, minigunner was a good class but sniper as well! Sometimes there were TC with teams of full snipers, and almost all fights had some, often as much as big gunner. There were also few grenaders who were often very usefull in some situations. And you know what? All those classes were fine and good, and it's why you were seeing all of this. Now what we have? No grenaders, no minigunners, and a lot of RL, snipers, and some energy guys.
Sad thing is that good class is something that can pwn combat armored drug dudes instantly.
A good class is just a class who can win against other ones, depending on situation. Now, even in situations where they should have the advantage, minigunners suck, and are slaughtered.
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...and some energy guys.
Hehe... just a few. Most of them play as an energy sniper because dont have SG sniper. Laser rifle is only a little better than minigurn.
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So nerf critical hits for snipers. There is no different for sniper if opponent wear combat armor or not.
One of the best things about crits is exactly the fact that your gear won't help you. They kind of ignore wealth, poor man's self defense. Good for everyone regardless of gear, similar benefits should be extended to big guns aswell. Overpowering enemies with best gear is just awful and drives away potential pvp participants. Main reason why I didn't pvp past wipes was because I hadn't invented a cheap enough build to uphold.
I'd rather suggest more reliability and predictability from crits, but less over the top effects like -20 ap knockouts and instakills.
You don't get it. Last session, minigunner was a good class but sniper as well! Sometimes there were TC with teams of full snipers, and almost all fights had some, often as much as big gunner. There were also few grenaders who were often very usefull in some situations. And you know what? All those classes were fine and good, and it's why you were seeing all of this. Now what we have? No grenaders, no minigunners, and a lot of RL, snipers, and some energy guys.
Guess so, can't say you're wrong.
A good class is just a class who can win against other ones, depending on situation. Now, even in situations where they should have the advantage, minigunners suck, and are slaughtered.
But where are minigunners supposed to have advantage?
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Hehe... just a few. Most of them play as an energy sniper because dont have SG sniper. Laser rifle is only a little better than minigurn.
I am taking about plasma rifles as well ;p In redding foe they can be pretty effective. But well, laser rifle defend himself and can be deadly against rocketter
Anyway :
But where are minigunners supposed to have advantage?
From 35 to 24 hex... (and from 35 to 1 hex against snipers)
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I dont see any reason to play as a big gunner.
1. Nerfed armor piercing ammo and their range made miniguns useless on town control(nowadays we use only sniper rifles and rocket launchers)
2. Autoaim for everyone. Now every single crippler with BB gun can take every single big gunner with avanger minigun or light support weapon. It was common fact before implementing auto aim but today its even easier.
3. Hard to craft and hard to get for lonely player.
Big guns only for masochists?
I've not got all day to read every post, so I'll just respond to the original.
1. The only real difference between when everyone was using Avengers and now is drugs and fast shot. Drugs affected snipers and RL equally, so only real difference is fast shot. RL were equally affected by fast shot being nerfed, so there's no real reason that RL should now be amazing compared to Avengers.
Snipers were always meant to get a nerf from Armour/Helmets reducing the critical chance (or critical roll) and crit defense perks. Both of these things will still happen to reduce Snipers down. Eventually snipers will also get their small nerf to go down to the same level as all the burst weapons did.
When all the new perks come in and we have a reasonable period of the weapons, the drugs, the perks and domination mode (as well as fixes to the flood of caps, awesomeness of mercs, availability of top gear at traders for crap and prices for weapons/ammo that reflect their new power levels) all at the correct levels - then we can have a proper discussion about what needs boosting and what's fine.
Hell, we might even have 3D models and be able to sort out animation speeds to allow single shot DPS builds to work properly :P
2. Autoaim/run are only good things imo.
3. Prices reflect how good weaons used to be and not the current situation. Next wipe will see prices changed a lot.
If anything else came up in the other pages feel free to tell me ;)
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Solar u could said: "Its fine as it is" ech...
and just like many said, i should not open this thread. It was pointless. I failed.
Manero >>---(x_x)---> death came in an instant... Bow to the auto aim snipers. This is the end of miniguns.
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From 35 to 24 hex... (and from 35 to 1 hex against snipers)
If you balance guns only based on effective range, we're going to have serious lack of tactical options. Pistols, smgs, automatic rifles and shotguns won't have their place at all. Smg takes 2 less aps to fire than minigun and ar 1, it's all the same because minigun just rips them to shreds with first strike.
There has to be other things to be taken into account than just range. In games where machine guns exist, they are used in support. It means that they are slow to react when encountering enemy, but very effective when prepared to secure an area. Fonline doesn't have options for this kind of settings, there's no guns suitable for "support" or "assault" because they all fire instantly.
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If you balance guns only based on effective range, we're going to have serious lack of tactical options. Pistols, smgs, automatic rifles and shotguns won't have their place at all. Smg takes 2 less aps to fire than minigun and ar 1, it's all the same because minigun just rips them to shreds with first strike.
There has to be other things to be taken into account than just range. In games where machine guns exist, they are used in support. It means that they are slow to react when encountering enemy, but very effective when prepared to secure an area. Fonline doesn't have options for this kind of settings, there's no guns suitable for "support" or "assault" because they all fire instantly.
I am talking about balancing actual engine and combat system. Change the whole engine to allow a place for smgs is another discussion... Anyway, all discussion is pointless coz Solar said "we gonna balance it ny nerfing snipers as well". The only problem is they nerf things one by one, and some classes are disadventaged during the delay between the nerf. Instead they should make a big rebalance when everything is ready, but see big gunners crying is funny I guess.
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The only problem is they nerf things one by one, and some classes are disadventaged during the delay between the nerf.
You seem to forget that this is a beta test and things like that happen in beta tests.
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You seem to forget that this is a beta test and things like that happen in beta tests.
I didn't forget, but it is obvious that when you nerf things one by one, you spend some time in meanless testing as you are testing a situation that will change by another nerf soon.
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By that logic, you shouldn't play the game at all, as everything can change in one way or another. ;)
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By that logic, you shouldn't play the game at all, as everything can change in one way or another. ;)
You got a point, but I still think they should have wait to have finished crit table / anti crit perks and armor before nerfing avenger ;p
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me do good as bgunner with avenger :p
251hp and can 2x burst.
just dont stand middle of nowhere without cover ;P;P
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me do good as bgunner with avenger :p
251hp and can 2x burst.
just dont stand middle of nowhere without cover ;P;P
Master.
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You got a point, but I still think they should have wait to have finished crit table / anti crit perks and armor before nerfing avenger ;p
Sometimes unexpected outcomes may result from medicore tweaks.
But as you said, we'd better wait and see how crits get changed.
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It was never meant to take so long, we had a delay getting the helmets ready and then when they were ready I was moving house - which is still going on.
In the end it was only a nerf of 16.7% or so, its not such a big change that it becomes impossible to be a big gunner. The first little nerf to snipers also happened, with Stonewall.
I think the biggest thing will actually be domination mode - this will provide "fair" arenas, so better comparisons can be made.
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Is there a thread where i can find out about this Domination mode?
I've not got all day to read every post, so I'll just respond to the original.
1. The only real difference between when everyone was using Avengers and now is drugs and fast shot. Drugs affected snipers and RL equally, so only real difference is fast shot. RL were equally affected by fast shot being nerfed, so there's no real reason that RL should now be amazing compared to Avengers.
Snipers were always meant to get a nerf from Armour/Helmets reducing the critical chance (or critical roll) and crit defense perks. Both of these things will still happen to reduce Snipers down. Eventually snipers will also get their small nerf to go down to the same level as all the burst weapons did.
When all the new perks come in and we have a reasonable period of the weapons, the drugs, the perks and domination mode (as well as fixes to the flood of caps, awesomeness of mercs, availability of top gear at traders for crap and prices for weapons/ammo that reflect their new power levels) all at the correct levels - then we can have a proper discussion about what needs boosting and what's fine.
Hell, we might even have 3D models and be able to sort out animation speeds to allow single shot DPS builds to work properly :P
Sounds intresting. I like the last part especially.