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[Keldorn]

You could steal the schematics for a vertibird in Fo2 btw... altho you couldn't MAKE one they were in your hands.

bout robots, dude, were making Advanced armor, lazor weapons and plasma etc.  It doesn't matter what you say about technological knowledge and shit because making that in the middle of the desert is aready so god damn far-fetched I almost pissed myself laughing when I first found out you could make Avengers, Plasma rifle and all other 3-tier shit at level 4 if at all.

You dont need facilities and machines and testing to make a plasma rifle or laser btw....?

From what I hear the devs are planning to remove Tier 3 or something like that.

Like I said, I, don't personally have a problem with robotic followers.  Take it up with the devs on that one.  However, robots are still different than living talking people.  And the OP was requesting robots as NPC mercs/slaves.

But yeah. the idea that regular folks can craft advanced weapons is kinda crazy.  I would prefer that people be required to join BoS or Enclave to gain access to those kind of weapons.

[borse]

I kinda like the idea of removing tier 3 crafting. It makes things a little more true to what Surf Solar said about how the game was meant to be. Early fallout 1 (I'm not entirely sure) with not much access to any of da good shit

[theyseemetrollin]

Without tier 3 pvp would just be rl and smgs, make for longer fights though.

[Nyarla]

From what I hear the devs are planning to remove Tier 3 or something like that.

then we would all make new chars or alts because we might have wasted our skill points on science for nothing (especially energy experts) i mean my science is 120% now, i wouldnt spend a single sp on science if it wasn't for the sake of crafting lvl 3 stuff. i wouldn't care much, if it was 120% repair or maybe outdoors... but 120% science? and you wont be able to craft any good stuff? then that would be a real waste of skill points...

[Michaelh139]

then we would all make new chars or alts because we might have wasted our skill points on science for nothing (especially energy experts) i mean my science is 120% now, i wouldnt spend a single sp on science if it wasn't for the sake of crafting lvl 3 stuff. i wouldn't care much, if it was 120% repair or maybe outdoors... but 120% science? and you wont be able to craft any good stuff? then that would be a real waste of skill points...

Crafting a minigun or rocketlauncher and .223's and 5mms jhp and ap and Laser rifles and so on is not worth the skillpoints?

the only weapon I see being neglected in crafting is smallguns since they're all pretty easily farmable besides tier 3.

Plus only tier 3 is good for serious pvp unless your a crippler, then all you need is a damn BB gun and your set.

[kraskish]

Everybody except Devs want robots.  

Guess who wins?

Devs

In F1 the only people with advanced technology were the BoS and the Master.  Thats it.  You didn't  have regular run of the mill thugs with shit like rocket launchers, plasma rifles and laser rifles or gatling lasers.

Lol wut. Have you ever played "Fallout 1" full retail game?

There were rocket launchers, turbo plasma rifles, gatling laser, super sledge and power armors. As a matter of fact, in case you read fallout bible... PA's AND BRAINBOTS were used in USA vs China war, why shouldnt they be present at 2161 or 2238 or 3333 if they were kept in armories? You think its the 79 years were a wastelands golden age that lead to robots and APA? well maybe APA  but other than that it all remained from the Great War

 Were there working cars in Fallout?? Oh yeah, NO.

The thing that there were no car you could go around wasteland and there was in F2 doesnt mean anything improved. There were millions of cars in US before the war. There was junktown made of car fence. I dont think it was just the engines that vaporated

Every other faction had to make do with basic weaponry.  Thats why i liked it so much.  Kind of an hoamge to the Planet Of The Apes movie.  The one where human bunker survivors were the only one with tech.  

Except dominant Masters Army? Well, youre right, but if you encountered them you could get sliced with their plasma or miniguns. Vaults also had technology but just few of them were completed. Anyway you were looking for water chip not a rain dancer or whatever. Fallout was not completely tribal as you say, never.

The whole idea of nation states didn't exist in Fallout.  In Fallout 2 all of a sudden you have the huge NCR beast capable of outfittin an entire army.  They were even able to stand toe to toe with the BoS (although with severe casualties).

Well, there was some mutant nation, most developed one. Also Shady Sands, Necropolis and Cathedral were quite a communities. Yep, no nation, does it exist in Fallout 2? Not really

[Keldorn]

1st section

What are you ranting about??  Do I have to repeat myself again?  I never said I had a problem with any of those things. Advanced weapons and Powered Armor iepresents lost technology which is fine.  Double so since Fallout was meant to be a harsh wasteland where weapons and armor ruled the day.  I guess I will elaborate further.  I do not have a problem with advanced weapons and armor as long as they are in the hands of thosewho would logically have them.  What I do have a problem is with working trains, helicopters, cars (specifically car or cars that are just given to people for money).  I have a problem with the idea of nation-states rising.  I have a problem with run of the mill thugs with electricity and energy weapons.  I have problems with Fatmans and B.O.M.B 1, when the whole point of Fallout was to show the folly of nuclear weapons.  Again these, unlike limited weapons and working power armor, are signs of civilzed and advanced nations. 

2nd Section

There may have been FEW salvageable cars.  Even then they would be in the hands of those who had the knowledge of repairing them.  Its not like in 2238 where any chucklehead could just produce advanced tech in their ramshackle base jeez.  I highly doubt the chosen one would conveniently find a fuel cell controller and some hick mechanic just magically has a working car without a motor (er whatever the hall ya wanna call it).

3rd Section

Again I must repeat myself.  I NEVER SAID THE WASTELAND SHOULD BE DEVOID OF TECHNOLOGY.  I did say that only specific folks should have access to it.  Those specific folks include super mutants and vault/bunker survivors.  Nobody else would be trusted with it.

4rth Section

As you said there were communities/cities yes

BUT.........

What do you think the New California Republic is??  By the end of Fallout it had claimed multiple citiies (the entire southern region of California if I remember correctly).  Its multiple cities and many different peoples rallying under one cause, one national identity.

[kraskish]

1st section

What are you ranting about??  Do I have to repeat myself again?  I never said I had a problem with any of those things. Advanced weapons and Powered Armor iepresents lost technology which is fine.  Double so since Fallout was meant to be a harsh wasteland where weapons and armor ruled the day.  I guess I will elaborate further.  I do not have a problem with advanced weapons and armor as long as they are in the hands of thosewho would logically have them.  What I do have a problem is with working trains, helicopters, cars (specifically car or cars that are just given to people for money).  I have a problem with the idea of nation-states rising.  I have a problem with run of the mill thugs with electricity and energy weapons.  I have problems with Fatmans and B.O.M.B 1, when the whole point of Fallout was to show the folly of nuclear weapons.  Again these, unlike limited weapons and working power armor, are signs of civilzed and advanced nations.

 

So robots could represent it as well  Finally we got a common point. Brainbots fought in the Great War, there were lots of them. Also masters army in fallout 1 were logical wastelanders?

2nd Section

There may have been FEW salvageable cars.  Even then they would be in the hands of those who had the knowledge of repairing them.  Its not like in 2238 where any chucklehead could just produce advanced tech in their ramshackle base jeez.  I highly doubt the chosen one would conveniently find a fuel cell controller and some hick mechanic just magically has a working car without a motor (er whatever the hall ya wanna call it).

Out of millions of cars before Great War, far more common than PA and brainbots or any other type of a weapon, there wouldnt be any left? In F2 there was mechanic in Den, but you also had to take a part from Klamaths car and buy fuel cell controller in Gecko, but still it just proves the engines and parts are all over the place. Reno, Junktown, Gecko? have cars on the streets.

3rd Section

Again I must repeat myself.  I NEVER SAID THE WASTELAND SHOULD BE DEVOID OF TECHNOLOGY.  I did say that only specific folks should have access to it.  Those specific folks include super mutants and vault/bunker survivors.  Nobody else would be trusted with it.

We are specific folks  

4rth Section

As you said there were communities/cities yes

BUT.........

What do you think the New California Republic is??  By the end of Fallout it had claimed multiple citiies (the entire southern region of California if I remember correctly).  Its multiple cities and many different peoples rallying under one cause, one national identity.

Yes, they had a president, there were rangers, some army, but there were also slavers which were hated by people in the same city. We had bazaar and inside city, lots of divisions. Yeah call it some city-state. So I proved my point

I don't mind robot followers but in regards to the devs I understand.  Robots is more than just a manual.  You need knowledge about ceramics and other composite material.  You need to understand what the stress endurance of alloys.  You need knowledge about robotics and AI.  Things that takes years of research and equipment and tests.  You need the faciilities and resources that allow for those tests.

All in all you need science, some robo parts and a machine, like it was possible in F2. You probably didnt like that part :p Maybe you dont need so much knowledge, the robots are still in Sierra Army Depot and other armories forgotten by the world after the conflict. In F1 you had robots, you had to turn on the generator. In F2 they were in SAD. How much more locations would you need to officially make them obtainable in the wasteland?

Imagine asking the devs for the ability for players to make verti-birds.

No its not the same, vertibirds would spoil the climate where a charming companion like you could have in F2 (2xrobodog + brainbot) where just different... also it would use some of the game content. As for me, the robots obtainable should have unique qualities like normal resistance and only unarmed robots should be available.
[/quote]

[borse]

I honestly see where kraskish is coming from. He raises many good points and so does keldorn.
I honestly think that given the current status of the game, it would make sense to add some of these things... Enough talk about Cars. They are in the game and it MAKES SENSE that they are. That's great if you have an opinion, Keldorn, but it doesn't make it fact. I would have to say the same thing to myself but there is one difference, I side with the Devs on this one. Cars fucking rule.

[Keldorn]

We would not be entitled to lost technology unless we decided to either join BoS, enclave, or raided lost bunkers like SAD or Mariposa.  Thing is those things are not easy and shouldn't be easy to do.

Again with the robots I don't have a problem with.  Especially as long as they cannot be made but repaired while inside places like SAD or Mariposa or The Glow.

Millions of cars troughout the nation?  yes.  Inside one state of California?  No, especially not working ones.  The places with the most cars also happened to be the places where nukes fell.  Ever heard of EMPs?  That was in the normal Fallout games.  Nuclear weapons generate a strong EMP that would destroy everything electronic within range, cars includied.  Especially so since the resource wars forced folks to depend on fusion and energy technology.  Something that would require complex electronic parts to regulate.

Cars may be fun and all but its something I personally against.  They could have easily implented another type of fast travel like Fallout 1 originally had like travelling with caravans for example.  Or if there were to be cars in the game, one shouldn't just randomly find a part and pay some money and get a car.  They should be in a faction that is technologically advanced with the know how to repair or modify sophisticated electronics like the BoS.  And only for a specific mision not just ownership.

The nation state existed and clearly as I said I didn't like the idea.  Iis it realistic?  Possibly.  But does it add to the forlorn wasteland feeling where technology is rare, precious and worshipped as a god by some folks?  No.

[kraskish]

Again with the robots I don't have a problem with.

Finally

Especially as long as they cannot be made but repaired while inside places like SAD or Mariposa or The Glow.

Thats a nice suggestion. I didnt say anything about crafting. Crafting is silly, Id prefer to buy it from "a person who knows how to get things" =D. So I guess like mercs but would be repaired (HP or maybe deterioration like guns?) at those places...

Millions of cars troughout the nation?  yes.  Inside one state of California?  No, especially not working ones.

Population of California 2010 - 36 mln, 32mln cars. (wiki)
Population of NCR state in 2238 - 700 000 (fallout bible)
A lot of cars, not working ones, but wastelanders are scavengers so eventually they would fix some car. In F2 you had car thieves (Reno), the guys were working on a workshop at the gas station. There was a car shop in Den... A lot of cars in Klamath.

The places with the most cars also happened to be the places where nukes fell.  Ever heard of EMPs?

Yep. Still engine wouldnt be entirely affected. There are lots of cables and electronics (vaults, there was even electronics trade in Den (Metzger gang trading electronics for jet? something like that) + Military base)

That was in the normal Fallout games.  Nuclear weapons generate a strong EMP that would destroy everything electronic within range, cars includied.  Especially so since the resource wars forced folks to depend on fusion and energy technology.  Something that would require complex electronic parts to regulate.

Ever heard of a word fallout? I doubt reno was hit with a nuke  , on the other hand I believe Glow did. Fallout is radioactive ash, it doesnt break cars down.

Cars may be fun and all but its something I personally against.  They could have easily implented another type of fast travel like Fallout 1 originally had like travelling with caravans for example.  Or if there were to be cars in the game, one shouldn't just randomly find a part and pay some money and get a car.  They should be in a faction that is technologically advanced with the know how to repair or modify sophisticated electronics like the BoS.  And only for a specific mision not just ownership.

Other MMOs got portals, mounts all sorts of things. The caravan travelling would be nice but its bugged and still it would be very safe to travel and unreal. Walking speed AFAIK is like IRL so you got the feeling of wastelander. Cars again provide transportation slower than originally in caravans but really fast on fonline level. And it doesnt guarantee any safety, thats the point. You can meet a faction and loose your car. In caravan option youd never loose because NPCs were helping you and its just easy.

The nation state existed and clearly as I said I didn't like the idea.  Iis it realistic?  Possibly.  But does it add to the forlorn wasteland feeling where technology is rare, precious and worshipped as a god by some folks?  No.

Dude, 700 000 people dont make it a nation 170 years after the war? (NCR). Im not making anything up. Maybe you dont like it but thats how it is.

[Keldorn]

In regards to cars.  We are talking about getting parts that are compatible.  I don't believe your typical run of the mill scavengers are going to know what cars are nevermind what makes them work and what parts are exactly missing.  Even then we are hoping connections and wiring haven't been fried by the emp.

Yes there would be scavengers like BoS and Vault Dwellers that could make cars work.  But the thing is vault dwellers such as Vault City and BoS folks arn't exactly keen about sharing lost tech with outsiders.  I will concede that maybe the ghouls might have the ability but even then you need morethan just know how.  You need equipment and tools like T-Rays.

Everything about Fallout 2:

I am going to try and keep this short and lets get back to the orignal topic here.  I didn't like Falout 2 because time had moved onwards too much.  Civilization started coming back with places like New Reno, Gecko, NCR etc.  People had power again, cars were coming back, energy weapons, powered armor and other things were being abundant.  If you go play F2 you willnotice the damned Shi merchants sell PA to just anybody.  Nuclear reactors were working.  The list goes on.  Thats what irritated me.

[Surf]

Thats a nice suggestion. I didnt say anything about crafting. Crafting is silly, Id prefer to buy it from "a person who knows how to get things" =D. So I guess like mercs but would be repaired (HP or maybe deterioration like guns?) at those places...

Yay! Let's make it even more easy and immersion breaking! You can never find robots by yourself, but there is a NPC who just sells you them as much as you want because "he knows where to get things"!

Population of California 2010 - 36 mln, 32mln cars. (wiki)
Population of NCR state in 2238 - 700 000 (fallout bible)
A lot of cars, not working ones, but wastelanders are scavengers so eventually they would fix some car. In F2 you had car thieves (Reno), the guys were working on a workshop at the gas station. There was a car shop in Den... A lot of cars in Klamath.

A lot of cars in Klamath... A lot of wrecks you mean. It is clearly stated that the particular Highwayman one was the only car being able to repair at all in Klamath. Ofcourse there might be other cars, but you can't compare a real life "non apocalypse" world with an actual apocalypse world (comparing number of people - car numbers).  

Yep. Still engine wouldnt be entirely affected. There are lots of cables and electronics (vaults, there was even electronics trade in Den (Metzger gang trading electronics for jet? something like that) + Military base)

Yeah, almost 200 years of harsh weather doesn't damage a car and it's metallical components, cogs etc. Ofcourse, there is no sand slowly destroying the inner parts, there is no oxidation at all.  
+ A military base is only prown to be scavenged by good armed factions, not some "guy who knows where to get stuff".
Did you ever encounter a faction in Fallout 1/2 offering you "Hey, you know man, I found some robot, man I give it to you, I know where to find the stuff." ?

Ever heard of a word fallout? I doubt reno was hit with a nuke  , on the other hand I believe Glow did. Fallout is radioactive ash, it doesnt break cars down.

Time breaks cars down. Other things mentionend above breaks cars down. And they sure do break robots down too. Did you ever encounter robots out in the open wasteland in FO1/2? Hm. I did not! And why? Because they could only "survive" in some isolated bases. And who probably raided/was being able to raid these bases? Hm! Huge ass factions! Are players in 2238 supposed to be on the same level when it comes to influence etc. compared to BoS etc? They are not.

Other MMOs got

FOnline:2238 is FOnline:2238, not some "other MMO.

Walking speed AFAIK is like IRL so you got the feeling of wastelander.

Still too fast.

I am going to try and keep this short and lets get back to the orignal topic here.  I didn't like Falout 2 because time had moved onwards too much.  Civilization started coming back with places like New Reno, Gecko, NCR etc.  People had power again, cars were coming back, energy weapons, powered armor and other things were being abundant.  If you go play F2 you willnotice the damned Shi merchants sell PA to just anybody.  Nuclear reactors were working.  The list goes on.  Thats what irritated me.

Agreed. Much there has been just put in because it is "cool". And the thing with implementing robots is nothing else. Without noticing things getting ridicolous, immersion breaking or with a little look at keeping it to the verisimilitude they've thrown stuff in because "hey man, this's cool!!11".

[kraskish]

Im really too tired of this. We should make some punchline subforum or have some troll points.

Ill just say, cars or car wrecks made it possible to drive a car by the chosen one and we are chosen ones to test this beta   Chosen one also had robot companions...

I didnt say we should do it because its cool!11 ROFTL LOL I said it still the game content some people disagree the nature of but still was present in the game, and now is in Glow... Geez how those robots work after being hit with a nuke and oxidating and shit for over 200 years? You criticise all story behind I just made up while the implemented one makes even less sense...Heres the reasoning you mentioned. You failed

Scraping the game of its content is not wise


EDIT: I could counter all your arguments surf_solar, but really whats the point of this? *sigh*

[theyseemetrollin]

Ok as for the cars all being totally wrecked after 200 years he has a point, but if we were going realistically after 200 years society would be pretty close to where it left off. The radiation would be long gone, nature would have taken over and everywhere would be green and society would have been rebuilt about 150 years ago. Hell there would be new cars.

But fallout isn't realistic. The wasteland exists because of mad max movies being set in australia, not because nukes can turn seattle into a dustbowl.