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Author Topic: 2238 is simulator of waiting  (Read 36291 times)

Solar

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2010, 01:36:13 pm »

A LSW does this much damage compared to the Avenger

Armour      Fraction of Avenger Damage
None   0.5
LJ   0.7
LA   0.8
LA2   0.8
CLJ   0.8
M   0.8
M2   0.8
Tesla   0.7
CA   0.8
CA2   0.8
BCA   0.77

DPS-wise, the only critical hit weapon that comes near an Avenger is the Plasma. Its probably needs reducing back to 24 hexes, but I was sick of people moaning about it not being used. Hense we have a little experiment.

Of course if  you'd prefer to make outlandish hyped up comments about weapons, ignore these facts and continue :)


Interestingly, approximate a minigun to 10 shots and an avenger to 14. 10/14 = 0.714 vs every armour.

You see a LSW is a little bit above (or below in 3 cases) the Minigun and the Avenger is a good way above both.
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.

Ned Logan

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2010, 01:48:11 pm »

Well, stats and traits aren't in a finished state, so I don't tend to bother with toughness or more crits as they won't be taken by everyone in the end. I stick to the fundamental ones - BRoF, 2*BRD and Better crits.

The minor ups and downs to all aspects that other traits and perks then just serve to mix the balance up a bit.
Well every crippler powerbuild has at least 2x more crits, and 10 LK (some 8), so please count with it...
No need to bother with toughness of course, it is the damage what interests us (+ possibly bypass chance)...
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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2010, 02:30:15 pm »

well, to be honest plasma was better than the avenger just before the wipe now it is even better than it used to be, dmg is not everything, with plasma u have knock downs, knock outs etc ...
35 30 or 25 hex doesnt really matter u cannot fight against snipers in open area anyway, these are close combat guns, after 3rd part tools bann using plasma is a pain in the ass but price and cost effe. make plasma better weapon than avenger, also things like armors, drugs ( psycho ), perks cannot save any sorry ass in front of plasma rifle with 10 luck, thats why avenger is worse
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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2010, 02:35:35 pm »

Well every crippler powerbuild has at least 2x more crits, and 10 LK (some 8), so please count with it...
No need to bother with toughness of course, it is the damage what interests us (+ possibly bypass chance)...

toughness vs avenger is the most important thing, ca:ba +2 x toughness make avenger useless, Solar u are a dev just make a quick test creat 2 char. 1 with 2 brd another one with 2x toughness +ca:bh and shoot him from 1 hex using ap ammo,  all ur lists of dmg are useless in front of this test then use lsw
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Solar

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2010, 08:46:40 pm »

My lists tell me what will happen without having to bother repeating and recording the test thousands of times.

Incidentally,
Avenger, 2 BRD, 2 Toughness = ((13.5*(2/3))-4)*(1-(0.5-0.35))*14 = 59.5
LSW, 2 BRD, 2 Toughness = (33.5-12)*(1-(0.5-0.1))*4 = 51.6 (86.7%)

Avenger is still better.

Plasma Rifle, when factoring in 75% crit chance (eyes, 10 luck) does ~10.1 damage per AP against CA. An Avenger does ~17.7. May very well be that the crit effects make it worth more, but things can be done to allow you to "save" vs those things (like stonewall now does)
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
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DonGizmo

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #140 on: September 10, 2010, 08:38:23 pm »

not everyone (pvp build) choose 2x toughness, sometimes you dont take even first one and you replace it by Stonewall, and i think, that if awareness perk would looks like on FOCD (so you can see how many HP, what kind of gun/ammo,.. EVERYBODY has), there would be less toughness perks in the snipers builds
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Marko69

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #141 on: September 10, 2010, 09:08:50 pm »

Toughness complete waste, go for offense not defense, what you think 250hp tank with toughness will save you? He will be too slow or blind, such build won't work now.
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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2010, 10:44:23 am »

H0ws it g0in s0lar :)

not my intention to have a dig man but we've seen a constant nerfing of bg, the avenger inparticular, since the start of beta. it still amazes me that we've had players 'testing' this game for over a year now, who voice thier opinion about the state of bg or the game in general yet all the sudden changes seem to be a reaction to the whinings of a minority of new payers who generaly are only around for a few weeks, a month tops, leaving us long term players to deal with the changes.

the pourpose of avenger pure dmg, it has no knockdowns or cripples, just dmg, and as a consequence of this it uses more ap and in pratice makes a charcter somewheat slower in pvp. now we see this weapn doing dmg in the viciniy of 80 dmg (prewipe, less now) midrange armred target in practice, a crit player with a 10mm pistol can do more, and has knock downs too boot. As bg players we no longer have the support of jet or fast shot, what exactly is the point of using bg aside from show?

As it stands today solar an average pvp fight is, bg bursts sg for 80 dmg, sg shoots, bg kncked down, fight over. Balance?
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maszrum

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #143 on: September 14, 2010, 11:01:33 am »

its hard to dont agre with aryan :/
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Crazy

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #144 on: September 14, 2010, 11:52:38 am »

Crit LSW build with stonewall are the only solution for Big Gunners I think. You simply don't deal enough damage with an avenger and 2*BRD, when a nasty crit with LSW is enough, less expansive, more effective, even if you deal 20 dmg less than avenger when you don't crit.
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When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk

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maszrum

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #145 on: September 14, 2010, 12:04:35 pm »

yes but this probably is not the purpose of avenger/lsw , that gun should dealing good dmg without any critics
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Crazy

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2010, 12:44:34 pm »

Exactly.
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Solar

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #147 on: September 14, 2010, 01:46:26 pm »

H0ws it g0in s0lar :)

not my intention to have a dig man but we've seen a constant nerfing of bg, the avenger inparticular, since the start of beta. it still amazes me that we've had players 'testing' this game for over a year now, who voice thier opinion about the state of bg or the game in general yet all the sudden changes seem to be a reaction to the whinings of a minority of new payers who generaly are only around for a few weeks, a month tops, leaving us long term players to deal with the changes.

the pourpose of avenger pure dmg, it has no knockdowns or cripples, just dmg, and as a consequence of this it uses more ap and in pratice makes a charcter somewheat slower in pvp. now we see this weapn doing dmg in the viciniy of 80 dmg (prewipe, less now) midrange armred target in practice, a crit player with a 10mm pistol can do more, and has knock downs too boot. As bg players we no longer have the support of jet or fast shot, what exactly is the point of using bg aside from show?

As it stands today solar an average pvp fight is, bg bursts sg for 80 dmg, sg shoots, bg kncked down, fight over. Balance?

I actually disregard any whines, whoever they're from. I did changes based only upon average damage calculations and where weapons should be in relation to each other.

I recently with reddots shooting at a CA critter with LSW and Avengers and the average damage was pretty much what I was expecting, except our sample was way too small.

Avengers will on average do more damage than the LSW. LSW will do similar damage to the Minigun. M 60 will do a little less than all of them.


As I see it we will eventually have:
Avenger & LSW (Tier 3 equivalents)
Minigun & M60 (Tier 2 equivalents)

Avenger costing about +50% to maintain - about $200 for a shot of AP (So 5mm AP costing $5) and LSW costing about $130 (So .223 FMJ costing $13 or so)

Then Minigun costing about $150 for a shot and M60 costing about $100 (7.62mm being $10).

The costs would be similar ratios to these and things will be done so its not so easy to get free LSW, Miniguns and Avengers - they'll still be avbailable, but arm cripples for free Miniguns or looting NCR Army after mutants kill them will be over. Hopefully we will get to the point where there is a tough (but fun?) fight for them.

BG Crit builds are actually sub-optimal (yes they are!), so I don't bother balancing for them.

As for being knocked down, there is already a defense there - stonewall. 10 En Stonewall should be pretty safe from knockdown/outs already. Should see more anti crit perks/traits in future (and other perks besides) so it shouldn't be so obvious what kind of chars you are designing your char to shoot at.


All in all, the intention is to add increased depth to the whole thing, adding more options and more builds. I don't nessacerily want it to be advantageous to have people all armed in one of two ways and to have cookie cutter build types. Part of the penalty of this will be a reduction in the top tier chars (and weapons) and an increase in formerly useless options.

Also, Hi Aryan, glad to see you're still knocking about! ;)
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.

LagMaster

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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #148 on: September 14, 2010, 07:57:19 pm »

Toughness complete waste, go for offense not defense, what you think 250hp tank with toughness will save you? He will be too slow or blind, such build won't work now.
i got a build in mind that will have 250 HP and dual toughfness, and it will not be needer slow, needer blind

actualy, it can use Bozar
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Re: 2238 is simulator of waiting
« Reply #149 on: September 15, 2010, 03:26:14 pm »

and it will not be needer slow, needer blind

Seriously, i know that most people here are no native speakers but could you please at least try to write words in a way people can understand what you want to say?

Thank you

Chiko
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